Posted on 02/08/2016 2:36:19 PM PST by pgyanke
I am in a discussion with a secular humanist who wants to know why, if our Founding Fathers believed in the inalienable rights of man, they allowed slavery. Can anyone recommend a good, honest book on the subject to share with him?
Slavery started prior to biblical times.
Somewhere there ought to be a book out there that some of the biggest black slaveholders were Cherokee Indians and other Southern tribes. And that the last place slavery ended in the U.S. was in the Cherokee Nation in 1866, after the end of the Civil War. That ought to cause some gyrations in his political correctness meter.
Try the DNC policies handbook.
Slavery is hardly the worst of all human conditions. It became painted thusly by the victorious North as a post hoc justification for their war against the Southern States. (And just so you know, I've never lived south of Long Island, NY. I just learned that all I learned in high school back in the 60s wasn't all there was to learn. And it's gotten progressively worse since then.)
ML/NJ
Hell don’t you know your history????
It was compromise made in order to get the Declaration passed so we could go to war with England and gain our freedom.
Have the idiot watch 1776 ( a musical granted but still a very good retelling of the effort to get the Declaration passed)
That isn’t the reason the US allowed slavery at its inception
Actually, mine! lol
Tell the person that Jefferson and many others wanted to end slavery, but to do so at that time would have meant NO USA. Heck, we still haven’t figured out how to make ‘freedom’ work successfully for slaves off spring.
The reason slaves were freed was because of the Constitution, which gave us the tools to do it. Lincoln’s emancipation was an act of war, to take assets of the Confederacy.
In a prophetic letter decades earlier ,
President Thomas Jefferson expressed the fears
of many of his contemporaries over conflicts
of states’ rights, westward settlement, federalism and slavery.
“This momentous question,
like a fire bell in the night,
awakened and filled one with terror,
I considered it at once as the knell of the Union.
It is hushed indeed for the moment.
but this is a reprieve only,
not a final sentence . . .
we have the wolf by the ears
and we can neither hold him
nor safely let him go.”
from “Jesus Wept” An American Story
CHAPTER 7 - The Battle of Wilson’s Creek
Missouri, August 10, 1861
http://jesusweptanamericanstory.blogspot.com/
meh
My white grandmother was an indentured servant in the late 1800’s. My grandfather paid $100 to get her released to marry her. I actually have copies of the papers.
I would agree with him completely, America is an evil, evil entity. And then ask him what the fu*k is he still doing here?
I can’t give you a book, but I can give you an answer.
They were hypocrites.
Now, before everyone jumps down my throat concerning the Founders—for whom I have nothing but virtually abject admiration, they were an historical anomaly that the world may never see again—the above answer is the opening wedge in the destruction of all progressivist ideology.
Christianity is the only perfectionist approach to ethics. Its standard is clear and simple: be perfect, even as God is perfect. Every other approach to ethics wants to make people be good, but Christianity says good is not good enough—you must be perfect, and when you are not perfect, you must repent.
This is more than a lifelong endeavor—it is a human-existence-long endeavor. Each generation starts from imperfection, aims for perfection, fails, repents, and starts again.
This also means that every generation is a generation of hypocrites, meaning they are too uncritical of themselves; they let things happen that they should not let happen, and they stop some things from happening that they should not stop from happening.
Today, Americans do not enslave each other; we are not hypocrites when it comes to slavery. No, we slaughter our babies in the womb, 50,000,000 of them in two generations, and like the proverbial prostitute of Proverbs, we eat, and wipe our mouths, and say we have done nothing wrong. 200 years from now, some secular humanist will ask about the present generation, that if they believed in the inalienable rights of man, how could they take, not the right to liberty from a few million, but the right to life from half a hundred million? And there will be no answer, except to say that we were hypocrites, that we watched it happen and did little, because we were too busy doing other things that were good in themselves, the way the Founders were too busy forming a republic such as the world had never before seen, something that was incredibly good in itself.
So how does this destroy progressivism? Because a true and honest appraisal of humanity recognizes that we never get to the promised land, because we are too self-centered and too hypocritical to avoid wandering in the wilderness, all the while thinking we are going in the right direction when in fact we are going askew. And that is when one has to say that the only way we get to the promised land is for a perfect Someone to take us there, and his name is Jesus. Your secular humanist friend may not accept that—or, if the words are imbued with the Spirit, he may, and that would make the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner who repents.
“Somewhere there ought to be a book out there that some of the biggest black slaveholders were Cherokee Indians and other Southern tribes. And that the last place slavery ended in the U.S. was in the Cherokee Nation in 1866, after the end of the Civil War. That ought to cause some gyrations in his political correctness meter.”
There is. See post # 27
Actually, slavery ended in Indian Territory with Lincoln’s emancipation, but most of the Cherokee slaves wanted to stay. I have testimonies of many of them, who were SO unhappy with their new ‘freedom’.
VERY interesting.
Testimonies of Cherokee Freedmen Slaves, A 1937 WPA project. Records prepared by the Federal Writers’ Project 1936-1938 assembled by Library of Congress Work Projects, Admin. Dist. Of Columbia http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/w#a3906
I'm trying to understand your question. What does his being a secular humanist have to do with his question about the founding fathers? That question could be asked by anybody. Is he saying that had the founding fathers been humanists instead of theists, they would not have allowed slavery? If so, he's claiming the anti-slavery mantel when it was not his to claim. In fact, it could be argued that Lincoln, a deeply religious man, can rightfully claim that mantel. And also a myriad of people who fought and gave their lives (probably very few of them were humanists of that time). Personally, I wouldn't waste time arguing with a humanist these days. I would have 40 years ago, but they have been co-opted ever since by radicals and their core beliefs have become overwhelmed by a plethora of social and economic and environmental concerns. The roots of their belief system, their original charter, has been lost by their including everything in it but the kitchen sink.
Ahh, you know a lot more about it than I do. One of my school roommates was a Cherokee from Tahlequah—ironically, he looked totally white, which I guess is not that unusual. His family’s ancestors were with the part of the Cherokee Nation that broke away and supported the Union—the Nation itself was allied with the Confederacy, as I understand it.
Slavery in modern Africa
Slavery in Africa continues today. Slavery existed in Africa before the arrival of Europeans - as did a slave trade that exported millions of sub-Saharan Africans to North Africa, the Middle East, and the Persian Gulf.[1] However, slavery and bondage are still African realities. Hundreds of thousands of Africans still suffer in silence in slave-like situations of forced labour and commercial sexual exploitation from which they cannot free themselves.
Modern-day enslavers also exploit lack of political will at the highest levels of some African governments to effectively tackle trafficking and its root causes. Weak interagency co-ordination and low funding levels for ministries tasked with prosecuting traffickers, preventing trafficking and protecting victims also enable traffickers to continue their operations. The transnational criminal nature of trafficking also overwhelms many countries' law enforcement agencies, which are not equipped to fight organized criminal gangs that operate across national boundaries with impunity.
Slavery by African country
Chad
IRIN (Integrated Regional Information Networks) of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports children being sold to Arab herdsmen in Chad. As part of a new identity imposed on them the herdsman "...change their name, forbid them to speak in their native dialect, ban them from conversing with people from their own ethnic group and make them adopt Islam as their religion."[2]
Mali
The Malian government denies that slavery exists, however, the slavery in Timbuktu is obvious. Slavery still continues with some Tuaregs holding Bella people.[3]
Mauritania
A system exists now by which Arab Muslims -- the bidanes -- own black slaves, the haratines.[4] An estimated 90,000 black Mauritanians remain essentially enslaved to Arab/Berber owners.[5] The ruling bidanes (the name means literally white-skinned people) are descendants of the Sanhaja Berbers and Beni Hassan Arab tribes who emigrated to northwest Africa and present-day Western Sahara and Mauritania during the Middle Ages.[6] According to some estimates, up to 600,000 black Mauritanians, or 20% of the population, are still enslaved, many of them used as bonded labour.[7] Slavery in Mauritania was finally criminalized in August 2007.[8] Malouma Messoud, a former Muslim slave has explained her enslavement to a religious leader:
"We didn't learn this history in school; we simply grew up within this social hierarchy and lived it. Slaves believe that if they do not obey their masters, they will not go to paradise. They are raised in a social and religious system that everyday reinforces this idea.[9]"
In Mauritania, despite slave ownership having been banned by law in 1981, hereditary slavery continues.[10] Moreover, according to Amnesty International:
"Not only has the government denied the existence of slavery and failed to respond to cases brought to its attention, it has hampered the activities of organisations which are working on the issue, including by refusing to grant them official recognition".[11]
Imam El Hassan Ould Benyamin of Tayarat in 1997 expressed his views about earlier proclamations ending slavery in his country as follows:
"[it] is contrary to the teachings of the fundamental text of Islamic law, the Quran ... [and] amounts to the expropriation from muslims of their goods; goods that were acquired legally. The state, if it is Islamic, does not have the right to seize my house, my wife or my slave."[12]
Niger
In Niger, where the practice of slavery was outlawed in 2003, a study found that almost 8% of the population are still slaves.[13] Slavery dates back for centuries in Niger and was finally criminalised in 2003, after five years of lobbying by Anti-Slavery International and Nigerian human-rights group, Timidria.[14] More than 870,000 people still live in conditions of forced labour, according to Timidria, a local human rights group.[15][16]
Descent-based slavery, where generations of the same family are born into bondage, is traditionally practiced by at least four of Niger's eight ethnic groups. The slave masters are mostly from the nomadic tribes -- the Tuareg, Fulani, Toubou and Arabs.[17] It is especially rife among the warlike Tuareg, in the wild deserts of north and west Niger, who roam near the borders with Mali and Algeria.[18] In the region of Say on the right bank of the river Niger, it is estimated that three-quarters of the population around 1904-1905 was composed of slaves.[19]
Historically, the Tuareg swelled the ranks of their slaves during war raids into other peoples' lands. War was then the main source of supply of slaves, although many were bought at slave markets, run mostly by indigenous peoples.[20][21]
Sudan
Francis Bok, former Sudanese slave. At the age of seven, he was captured during a raid in Southern Sudan, and enslaved for ten years.(Courtesy Unitarian Universalist Association/Jeanette Leardi)
There has been a recrudescence of jihad slavery since 1983 in the Sudan.[23][24]
Slavery in the Sudan predates Islam, but continued under Islamic rulers and has never completely died out in Sudan. In the Sudan, Christian and animist captives in the civil war are often enslaved, and female prisoners are often used sexually, with their Muslim captors claiming that Islamic law grants them permission.[25] According to CBS news, slaves have been sold for $50 apiece. [1] In 2001 CNN reported the Bush administration was under pressure from Congress, including conservative Christians concerned about religious oppression and slavery, to address issues involved in the Sudanese conflict.[26] CNN has also quoted the U.S. State Department's allegations: "The [Sudanese] government's support of slavery and its continued military action which has resulted in numerous deaths are due in part to the victims' religious beliefs." [2]
Jok Madut Jok, professor of History at Loyola Marymount University, states that the abduction of women and children of the south by north is slavery by any definition. The government of Sudan insists that the whole matter is no more than the traditional tribal feuding over resources.[27]
It is estimated that as many as 200,000 people had been taken into slavery during the Second Sudanese Civil War. The slaves are mostly Dinka people.[28][29]
South Africa
Despite significant efforts made by the South African Government to combat trafficking in persons the country has been placed on the "Tier 2 Watch List" by the US Department of Trafficking in Persons,for the past four years.[47] South Africa shares borders with Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Lesotho, Mozambique and Swaziland. It has 72 official ports of entry "and a number of unofficial ports of entry where people come in and out without being detected" along its 5 000 km-long land borderline. The problem of porous borders is compounded by the lack of adequately trained employees, resulting in few police officials controlling large portions of the country's coastline.
Child slave trade
The trading of children has been reported in modern Nigeria and Benin.[30] The children are kidnapped or purchased for $20 - $70 each by slavers in poorer states, such as Benin and Togo, and sold into slavery in sex dens or as unpaid domestic servants for $350.00 each in wealthier oil-rich states, such as Nigeria and Gabon.[31] [32]
Ghana, Togo, Benin
In parts of Ghana, a family may be punished for an offense by having to turn over a virgin female to serve as a sex slave within the offended family.[33] In this instance, the woman does not gain the title of "wife". In parts of Ghana, Togo, and Benin, shrine slavery persists, despite being illegal in Ghana since 1998. In this system of slavery, sometimes called trokosi (in Ghana) or voodoosi in Togo and Benin, or ritual servitude, young virgin girls are given as slaves in traditional shrines and are used sexually by the priests in addition to providing free labor for the shrine.[34]
Ethiopia
Mahider Bitew, Children's Rights and Protection expert at the Ministry of Women's Affairs, says that some isolated studies conducted in Dire Dawa, Shashemene, Awassa and three other towns of the country indicate that the problem of child trafficking is very serious. According to a 2003 study about one thousand children were trafficked via Dire Dawa to countries of the Middle East. The majority of those children were girls, most of whom were forced to be sex workers after leaving the country. The International Labor Organization (ILO) has identified prostitution as the Worst Form of Child Labor.[35]
In Ethiopia, children are trafficked into prostitution, to provide cheap or unpaid labor and to work as domestic servants or beggars. The ages of these children are usually between 10 and 18 and their trafficking is from the country to urban centers and from cities to the country. Boys are often expected to work in activities such as herding cattle in rural areas and in the weaving industry in Addis Ababa, and other major towns. Girls are expected to take responsibilities for domestic chores, childcare and looking after the sick and to work as prostitutes.[35]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_modern_Africa
Or,
*******************************************************************
The Price in Blood
Casualties in the Civil War
At least 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War, and some experts say the toll reached 700,000.
The number that is most often quoted is 620,000. At any rate, these casualties exceed the nation’s loss in all its other wars, from the Revolution through Vietnam.
The Union armies had from 2,500,000 to 2,750,000 men. Their losses, by the best estimates:
Battle deaths: 110,070
Disease, etc: 250,152
Total 360,222
The Confederate strength, known less accurately because of missing records, was from 750,000 to 1,250,000. Its estimated losses:
Battle deaths: 94,000
Disease, etc: 164,000
Total: 258,000
Politics. The Southern colonies never would’ve signed on to the Declaration or Constitution if slavery were to be banned. The “Three-fifths Compromise” was born of this problem.
If your friend does not already know the answer I assure you, he is not seeking an answer. He is merely taunting you.
There is a one-word answer to why they allowed slavery and that one word is compromise in order to create a nation.
That compromise created a nation that totally abolished slavery in less than eighty years. A feat worthy of celebration considering that slavery existed in the world then and exist now.
The British banned it before we did.
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