Posted on 08/07/2017 9:36:59 AM PDT by re_tail20
Phased plasma rifle, 40 watts.
I have to tip my hat to the guy who trained me. That, and I was a total gun geek back then. I didn't really do much in the Army outside of training and work. Kept several close friends who were like me, all into the Soldier of Fortune Merc fantasy thing. We lived and breathed weapons and military history the same way that Dungeons and Dragons geeks lived and breathed magic spells. Playing with OpFor weps was almost an orgasmic experience for us.
We went out to the range when everyone else was going to the movies or looking for girls. Our platoon sergeant kinda felt sorry for us, I think. But he also recognized that we had a passion for getting really good at shooting and knowledge of weapons. And he was super fun to hang around with, even though he was in his 40s and we were all just barely 19 or 20. So he sort of 'adopted' us and showed us what he knew. Cried my heart out when I heard he died of cancer a few years back.
So basically I got good at it because I was a geek, too scrawny to attract girls, and basically had no life.
The problem with 7.62x51 in full auto has long since been solved. The problem isn’t the round, the main problem was the fact that we were using the round in the M-14. The M-14 had many sterling properties but stability in full auto fire was not one of them. The M-14 is simply too light and shaped wrong. The US Government should have bought the T48 FAL instead of the M-14 if they wanted full auto fire.
Here is someone demonstrating the old FAL in full auto with modern technique. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSVY9EW2Bbs
Looks pretty damn controllable to me.
Erm... You’re a bit out of date. Most of the M-14s and parts were destroyed by order of Clinton back in his term. The Marines and Navy openly kept a few back for approved purposes, all services kept a tiny few for parade. The Marines, however, had squirrelled away some few thousand of the things against future need, having ‘lost’ them in the supply system. When the GWOT started and 5.56 was found wanting over in the Sandbox, the Marines mysteriously “found” the old M-14s.
However, the old reserves weren’t that deep and the government has been compelled to buy new M-14s to fill the newly created “EBR” role in the Sandbox. This has been good for Springfield Armory Incorporated in Illinois, because that’s where they’re buying them from. You read that right, the government is out of ‘new’ ones to pull from reserves so they’re having to buy actual new ones.
See my immediately prior post. No, they basically don’t.
There aren’t many left to convert to semi - Clinton had them destroyed.
The Marines have introduced the M27 IAR (basically a modified HK 416) to supplement the SAW with more automatic riflemen. The latest word is that the Marines are considering replacing *all* their M16s and M4s with M27 variants.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/11/18/marine-corps-experimenting-new-service-rifle.html
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/02/foghorn/marine-corps-may-replace-fns-m4-hks-m27-iar/
If so, good riddance to direct impingement burstfire guns.
Thing is, you can get 7.62 already through the NATO logistics system. Better to do that.
Also, our NATO partners are unlikely to be happy with us changing calibers yet again. Some are still upset about us dumping 7.62 for 5.56 after fighting them for 7.62 for so long. We’d be on our own for supply.
You apparently got a smart lieutenant.
Couple of quick observations
SAPI inserts- must be able to withstand three hits from M80 ball ( 147 grn bullet at 2750 fps)
Enhanced SAPI ( ESAPI) Withstand the 762x63 ( 30/06) AP round ( you see those much? Me neither).
What is the capability of the threat armour? Does it meet/exceed either of these US standards? ( I doubt it for the most part).
I can pretty much tell you that unless the govt ramps up the 762x51 significantly, it will not produce a round that meets or exceeds the 30/06 AP round.... Physics are hard to beat- smaller calibers with slippery bullets lose the mass needed, even if they carry more residual velocity to the target ( which neither the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel , cough cough, do)
They don’t make plates that cover more than about 20% of the vital areas of the body, and then only if the wearer is standing tall-— don’t try that too often in any firearms combat I tell ya.
Shots count, granted, more powerful hits count more, but given the limited marksmanship and combat training with live ammo our forces get, a hit from a smaller caliber is more important than a whole lot more misses with a heavier recoiling, fewer round platform- just the way it is. If the marksmanship programs were rejuvenated to include tons of KD range opportunities, then the hit probability goes up due to proficiency. When we have folks who fire their individual weapons once or twice per year on a qual range, things just don’t get better....
Finally, the system requires a long lead time for the most part to bring in new equipment, parts and training doctrine so if you are a breath holder, don’t.
The M855A1 was never designed to penetrate hard armour, neither was the M80, the enhanced P 762x51 round won’t likely do it either- especially at significant range.
Did I say hits count? Hit ‘em first. Twice, or three times-even a 762 won’t “DRT” much of anything unless a Central Nervous System hit is achieved. That’s life in the dirt...
Some AR10 variant would seem to make the most sense, from a user base familiarity standpoint.
Perfect, except for the need to produce, stockpile, and distribute a new caliber in the military logistics system. 7.62x51 is used in a lot of existing systems.
Oh, a few more data points according to the 2017 Hornady catalog for those who ponder...
6.5 Grendel- an AR 15 based cartridge with a max length of 2.260” for magazine feed- so a 123 grain 6.5mm bullet at 258 fps carries about 800 ft-lb of energy at 500 yds from a 24 inch; anyone think the US military will field a 24” bbl’d rifle? Not likely, so detract about 25 fps per inch, and you are running about 2350 fps for about 450 ft lbs at 500 ys.
The 6.8 SPC ( another AR15 platform round) and a 110 grin JHP at 2500 fps carries about 580 ft lbs at 500 yds, from a 16 inch bbl, trajectory similar to the M80 762 round-IOWs, pretty rainbow-esques.
The 260 Rem/6.5 Creedmoor ( sisters of simply another name)- one a legacy round the other optimized for modern guns and medium/heavy 6.5 bullets for efficiency- 130 grain bullet at 2850, very flat compared to the 762, 6.5 grn and 6.8 SPC, given terminal energy in the 1300 ft-lnb range at 500 yd, from a 24 inch bbl, so reduce by about 200 fps, and you get well over 800 ft-lbs at 500 yds, and a flat trajectory with a decent bullet.
762/308 win-okay, now the rub, the 762x51 Nato is loaded to a nominal 50k psi, while the 308 win is loaded to 65k psi, so we have some wiggling to work out.
The 308 win 155 grain BTHP round from Hornady runs at 2700 fps, for about 850 ft-lbs at 500 yds, from a 24 inch barrel once again, drop to a 16 inch “rifle” and you lose about 200 fps - so closer to 600 ft-lbs, and that rainbow like trajectory....
So, while this comparison is not fully scientific, with a few rules of thumb employed and some valid assumptions from published knowledge, we get a clear winner- the 6.5 short action family of round- the Creedmoor to me is the likely winner- the Grendel- well, not if you want improved anything over the 556 and certain not the 762 in a carbine- it is just too boutique to matter. The 6.8- well it works for short range but barely beats the 556 with heavy bullets ( like Mk262 etc) from a carbine or short rifle.
An AR10 based weapon with a folding stock and a mid length bbl ( 18”) and a mid length gas system or if you must for PC reasons, an external gas piston system for you AR haters, modular and capable of hitting out to 800m with authority that exceeds the 556, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC and the M80 762. The Army already uses the M110 SASS- an AR10 based semiauto 762, so the parts and maint and training packages are already in place.
Bullets are out there- Barnes made a gilding and tungsten bullet for the military ( maybe still does) that probably with some work would be a near ideal general purpose anti-pers/anti cover/armor round.
In the meantime, the services ( Army, USMC, SOCOM), simply needs to train precision marksmanship on the KD ranges ( are there any?) and teach troopers how to hit/kill. The 556 with either the M4 or M16A4 MWS is useable and capable. Make mine a full sized M16A4.....for now.
“As long as there is lead in the air, there is hope”
Not nearly all of them. IIRC he had about 50,000 destroyed.
It seems like the military never has enough money for live-fire training. At least they didn’t when I was in the Army.
Much of the time, you’re not necessarily shooting at a specific target, but just putting down some covering fire for fire and maneuver. At any rate, I always found it very comforting to have the extra firepower of an M203.
Still a friend of mine: had lunch with him last month..
Thank you very much for your service!
God Bless You!
That makes more sense and I figured that is what you meant, but I didn’t want to assume either.
Again, thank you for your service to our nation and may God Bless You!
Yes, different tools for different jobs.
I just keep hearing the same conclusions from Marine’s about semi vs. auto fire. Plus, it’s in their training too.
Thanks for the video.
I tried a bullpup (Kel-Tec) a few months back in 7.62x51, and I’m a southpaw. That thing had a good mule kick to it. I guess I’m so used to shooting my 7.62x39 Russian that the recoil surprised me.
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