Posted on 12/12/2017 9:30:01 AM PST by JockoManning
I do believe there's some barely conscious to ruminating persistently conscious choosing that goes into "getting back at" parents who are at least perceived as insufficiently caring. And, actually, we cannot think of any parents we've known who were perceived as lacking in caring--who weren't. Those rather few who successfully cared for their children sufficiently--were known by one and all as authentically and lavishly caring.
One could consider oppositional, defiant features to 'merely' be another verse of the same old RAD song. It's just that with those kids, the anger, rage factors are soooo intense that the child is determined to get ATTENTION one terrible way or another.
My housemate has often commented to counselees and students that parents will PAY for their children dearly one way or another--doing it right--at great effort, energy, time--or via lawyer's fees.
Parenting has never honorably been for wimps, the lazy or fools.
Though it now seems that most parents fit one or more of those categories.
Very fascinating. I think your focus is actually very helpful to the intertwined communities dealing with addiction or RAD. I hope the research continues. I am fine being wrong in my opinion, and would adjust accordingly, if it helps families.
One thing that throws me off is all the defining points, like am I a successful adult? I guess not, with two failed marriages. Did I feel loved as a child? Yes, I did. Was I abandoned for most of the day at age 2? Yes, I was. My own case is confusing to me. I was a bit adrift and a classic perfect victim sort of child. No substance abuse (addiction) whatsoever even with tons of (including involuntary) drug exposure. So many things went wrong but not that. But I’m not a very strong case and no RAD at all.
The dopamine loop is real, and it seems many are caught up in it from social media to shopping to substances. I like your focus and wish you success.
No. We haven't. We know many dozens of authentically spiritual parents who earnestly tried to transmit authentic spirituality, a true walk with God in their children.
However, they lacked key degrees and qualities of loving the children at key early years.
And, they also tended to fail at obeying the verse about "Provoke not your children to wrath."
We have known many children--housemate included--who earnestly endeavored to follow the Biblical guidelines from an early age--authentically--as unto The Lord. He jumped through all the spiritual hoops to the more or less best of his ability--as have millions of other RAD children.
He desperately tried to change for decades with frightfully meager progress. He'd earnestly almost harass any source of redemptive 'spiritual-giant' help he could from pastors to lay people--relentlessly.
That never overcame the effects of RAD. It sometimes helped prevent him and others from going absolutely bonkers. For others, the spirituality didn't even prevent that.
That has been a very troubling thing to my housemate most of his life. Why, how, could that be the case. But it was clearly the case.
It is as though that deep hole caused by RAD MUST be healed, filled--certainly by God's Spirit--but also--evidently--by people who will walk in deep emotional and spiritual connection with the one needing the healing from RAD.
We have found that Brene Brown's extensive research into such issues is very helpful even toward encouraging a vulnerable and growthful spirituality in conjunction WITH daring to brave the arena of growth and real life overcomingly. As she has documented so thoroughly--CONNECTION--BONDING emotionally, intensely, even spiritually with another person is still a key to growth and health. All the more so for RAD folks.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=BRENE+BROWN
You can philosophize all you want. You ain’t gonna help anyone. When they are ready to accept the spiritual solution that is offered to them then they will change.
We are not per se merely philosophizing. We are talking about the nitty gritty aspects of life involved in getting beyond the deeply ingrained challenges of RAD etc. etc. etc.
Consider virtually ALL the GREAT SPIRITUAL MEN of the Bible. How many raised successful NON-RAD, spiritual sons? It's difficult to think of one of them.
We agree that healthy and intense spirituality needs to be a huge part of the solution. WE have NOT observed that even healthy and genuine degrees of authentic connected-with-Jesus spirituality--in and of itself appears to do the trick for the vast majority of folks we have come across.
Certainly Jesus CAN touch someone and set them on dry ground out of the swamp of RAD results--more or less. We just can't think of a single case where He HAS done so APART FROM bringing spiritual people into that person's life WHO THEN CONNECTED TO THEM in an emotionally bonded, supportive and redemptive role.
It is a bit like the story of the little boy who was exhorted to talk to Jesus about a problem. And the little boy said, "Yeah, but I need God with skin on."
We all do.
We were DESIGNED that way BY GOD.
Conceivably. My housemate’s is better. Most on the receiving end claim his is 80-99% accurate.
However, we stand by that post. It is reasonably accurate about millions of—by the world’s standards—very successful people.
If you haven’t seen the movie TEMPLE GRANDIN—PLEASE do! Later.
I think you have failed to understand my points sufficiently well. But I’m about out of gas tonight so maybe another day.
Thanks for your kind words. We are willing to extend the bother and some risk because the issues and lives are so important.
I don't know that you were greatly wrong--certainly not wholesale.
One thing that throws me off is all the defining points, like am I a successful adult? I guess not, with two failed marriages.
They chose to set the bar in that study high. They wanted to know fairly clearly and emphatically what contributed most to success as adults.
However, as you've indicated below--your success as an adult has not been seamless or all 100% top flight in every respect and area, if I understand you accurately.
Did I feel loved as a child? Yes, I did. Was I abandoned for most of the day at age 2? Yes, I was. My own case is confusing to me. I was a bit adrift and a classic perfect victim sort of child. No substance abuse (addiction) whatsoever even with tons of (including involuntary) drug exposure. So many things went wrong but not that. But I’m not a very strong case and no RAD at all.
It is hard to tell without asking some questions how much you fit ANY RAD factors at all, or not. We suspect there may be at least a few. We say that partly because we have never met anyone who divorced when both parties were LACKING in RAD factors/influences. It's conceivable. We have just never met such a person.
For one, someone who is totally free of RAD is unlikely to marry someone who is awash in it. It happens, but it's not a given, for sure.
The dopamine loop is real, and it seems many are caught up in it from social media to shopping to substances. I like your focus and wish you success.
Thanks for your charitable tone and good wishes. Likewise back at you from both of us in out household.
Do not throw RAD in with alcoholism. You obviously are not an alcoholic. You want to philosophize....that’s fine but the individual who is alcoholic (no matter who the parents are) has their own path to walk
Neither of us have ever met an alcoholic without serious RAD. That would be over a span of 50+ years and more than 5,000 people.
BOTH are hard facts full of measurable features, factors, pain, reality.
It's hard to understand what you are calling mere 'philosophizing.'
Our comments arise--in part--out of working a year at an alcohol treatment facility in an internship--in part to hold intense groups with an AA co-leader. The facility was founded by the retired head who ran the Navy's alcohol treatment center--having founded that, if my housemate recalls correctly.
Certainly we have seen many hundreds of alcoholics in our lifetimes.
The part RAD plays in ALL addictions is well known. We don't understand your aversion to those facts.
To be clearer—the 100’s of alcoholics we’ve met &/or observed were out of the 5,000+ people we came across in our teaching, church attendance, counseling and other social contacts.
Working at a treatment facility gives zero idea of what it is like to be an alcoholic
It is one of the few things that I say if you aren’t one there is no possible way you can understand
Where do you get the ridiculous notion that RAD and alcoholism go hand in hand. You say that is a fact. No it is not
Your understanding of alcoholism is so distorted
I’m pretty sure your understanding of RAD is pretty off too
We did not say that EVERY RAD afflicted individual resorted to drugs. There's a long list of other addictions:
--workaholism--are you 100% free of that?
--OCD--are you 100% free of that?
--rage-aholism--are you 100% free of that?
--overeating--are you 100% free of that?
--exercise addiction--are you 100% free of that?
--caffine addiction--are you 100% free of that?
--sugar addiction--are you 100% free of that?
--violence addiction--are you 100% free of that?
--sex addiction--are you 100% free of that?
--thrill-seeking addiction--which seems to have an added genetic component--are you 100% free of that?
--chronic rebelliousness--are you 100% free of that?
--compulsive talking--are you 100% free of that?
--compulsive anxiety--perhaps even paranoia--are you 100% free of that?
--compulsive perfectionism--are you 100% free of that?
--compulsive blaming, judgmental-ism, projecting, rationalizing--are you 100% free of that?
--compulsive emotional, verbal, physical and/or sexual abuse--are you 100% free of that?
--compuulsive brittleness, thin-skinned-ness, combativeness--are you 100% free of that?
--compulsive speeding--are you 100% free of that?
--compulsive living dangerously--tempting fate relentlessly--a type of thrill-seeking--are you 100% free of that?
etc. etc. etc.
IF you are 100% free of all those, then you are an extremely rare individual.
Where do you think our habits arise out of?
Such habits do not arise out of a vacuum without any precursors!
As the former head of New York Psychiatric Hospital--Dr Murray Banks asserted relentlessly: THERE IS NO HUMAN BEHAVIOR WITHOUT A REASON. {search youtube for great talks by him}
There ARE REASONS seriously RAD afflicted individuals tend to become addicts of one sort or another at one level or another. And RAD is a big part of those reasons.
CERTAINLY we all have responsibility for a given choice at a given moment on a given day. Nevertheless, those habits have origins. And wisdom understands and works with, wrestles with those origins and reasons--and doesn't deny them and pretend they don't exist.
Have there never been any habits in your life that you found difficult to impossible to break? If so, then you are an extremely rare individual.
As the OP article outlined, early comfort seeking--a rather normal part of being human--results in seeking comfort and avoiding pain. An individual who failed to do either would be seriously damaged in some aspect or another.
And, such behaviors form deeply grooved neural pathways, connections, feedback loops, dopamine loops in the brain. WHEN the child is healthy amidst intensely, faithfully, lavishly affectionate parents, those pathways are largely healthy. Their resulting choices and habits are largely, overwhelmingly healthy and balanced--contextually fitting.
WHEN the child is subjected to poor parenting in such matters, those brain grooves and loops become dysfunctional wherein the child desperately, vainly flails about trying to find SOMETHING to bring comfort, decrease the pain.
Usually it is some sort of addiction that fills and fits those needs to a limited but persistent degree. Limited because addictions do not bring deep lasting relief but only put a dysfunctional band-aid on the problems of comfort-seeking and pain.
How about ‘they’ put it in their mouth...or ‘they’ shot it up with their own two hands.....
If you are the first to never do any such thing in a dysfunctional way--then you are one of the first near perfect human beings we've ever come across.
Play with fire you are going to get burned....it’s not like the warnings haven’t been out their for decades.
Who said all this was 100% rational? Are you implying or asserting that you have never ignored warnings that have relentlessly stared you in the face--or even slapped you up-side the face painfully?
Did you ever ignore speed limits? Did you ever get a ticket for speeding? Did you ever speed again?
The patterns deeply ingrained the first years of life in the child's desperate search for comfort and avoidance of pain become extremely deep rooted. They are pervasive influences of behavior over the whole of the person's daily life interactions and isolated times. They affect virtually every area of the individual's life--consciously and unconsciously.
At what point in compulsive behavior formation does the matter of "choice" greatly diminish to functionally nothing? Where in the compulsion to eat a whole carton of ice cream has "choice" diminished far too much to claim the person is 100% in control of that choice?
My housemate can eat one spoon of ice cream and leave it for days or even weeks--virtually always eating only one to 3 spoons of it at a time. I tend to eat the whole carton if I start on it. Then, embarrassed yet again, I have to rush out and get him another one--hopefully before he discovers it gone.
Am I in "control" of my ice cream eating choices and actions? Yes and no.
My housemate, on the other hand, seemingly CANNOT avoid scratching his skin--relentlessly searching for bug bites, any kind of bump or imperfection to scratch off. He has tried a long list of remedies to little to no avail. Is he in "control" of his relentlessly scratching? Yes and no. He's often not even aware of starting to do it again.
We think that his harsh mother frequently yelling at him to "stop it" was one of the few intense bits of attention she gave him--thereby reinforcing the habit.
Empathy and compassion without enabling are wise for all of us.
It is one of the few things that I say if you aren’t one there is no possible way you can understand
Yes and no.
Largely no.
Perhaps you have never experienced a high degree of empathy. Perhaps you have little capacity to more or less experience what it is like to place yourself in another person's skin.
True, it's not identical understanding with identical knowledge. However, in my housemate's case, it is far from a "zero idea" as every alcoholic he's worked with or known closely would be happy to tell you.
Struggles with any kind of addiction have a LOT in common. Each particular sort has some distinctives fairly unique to that specific addiction. However, there's still a LOT of shared stuff across all addictions. That's even more true across all substance abuse addictions.
Failure to believe or understand that is simply lack of understanding or awareness. Perhaps one of your addictions is exaggeration.
However, in my housemate's case, his colleagues, students and counseling clients persistently rated him in the top 1-3% of such professionals in his understanding, empathy, communication skills, caring, knowledge, heart, ability to walk in their shoes, feel within their skin etc.
So your methods cured millions?
RAD--rethinking alcohol and drugs
'EFFECTS OF RAD:' http://www.villagebh.com/disorders/reactive-attachment/symptoms-signs-effects
QUOTE: The complications of reactive attachment disorder can continue into adolescence and into later adulthood, causing a number of long-term negative effects. Some of these effects may include:
Poor self-esteem
Delayed physical growth or learning
Challenges in scholastic environment that may lead a teen with RAD to drop out of school
Delinquent or antisocial behavior
Temper or anger problems
Relationship problems
Eating problems leading to malnutrition
Academic problems
Depression
Anxiety
Substance and alcohol addiction
Unemployment or frequent job changes
Inappropriate sexual behaviors
END QUOTE
The Link Between Adult Attachment Styles and Sex and Love Addiction
BEGIN QUOTE (emphasis added):
On the other hand, if the mother is chronically dysregulated herself, meaning depressed or anxious, she will then impart those same patterns to her infant. This means that the infant will not have the brain or nervous system structures in place to regulate or self-soothe herself as an adult. When that happens, the depressed or anxious traits become insecure states and attachment patterns in the person. For example, we've all known people who are chronically depressed or constantly anxious. At the extremes, a highly dysregulated nervous system can lead to the making of an addict. Addicts, whether they're using drugs, alcohol, food, love, or sex to soothe themselves, are typically chronically dysregulated. They're seeking relief from underlying issues like depression or anxiety and can't get it. Because they didn't get the appropriate input and modeling for how to seek and receive comfort from the adults in their lives, they turn to substances or behaviors that will give them temporary relief from their own internal dysregulation. Over time, the habituated use of sex or obsessive love, become patterned behaviors that are difficult to stop.
END QUOTE
Is Reactive Attachment Disorder In Adults Real?
https://www.betterhelp.com/advice/family/is-reactive-attachment-disorder-in-adults-real/
BEGIN QUOTE (emphasis added):
How Does RAD Manifest in Adults? RAD follows children into adulthood when it was not effectively treated during childhood. Adults with RAD have trouble being genuine in friendships and romantic relationships because they have difficulty showing empathy, remorse, trust, and compassion. It causes them to deny personal responsibility and continue the lying and manipulating behaviors they learned as children. They often feel that others blame them, which causes them to feel hopeless, helpless, stressed, depressed, isolated, and angry. This disorder leads some adults to addictive behaviors including substance abuse, alcoholism, sex addiction, or other addictions. Many of these behaviors may lead them into trouble with the law. END QUOTE
Attachment Styles of Adults and Their Effects on Relationships
http://www.attachmentdisorder.net/Adult_Attachment_Problems.htm
BEGIN QUOTE (emphasis added):
Unresolved Adults Unresolved adults are those in a disorganized state. They do not have a consistent and organized approach to relationships. During their childhood, they had a history of neglect, abuse, cruelty, and loss. Their parents were either unresponsive, punitive, insensitive and inconsistent; or they grew up with no guidance from parents. As a result, they are afraid of genuine closeness. They are selfish, controlling and do always disregard the rules. They are very vulnerable to alcoholism, drug abuse and other forms of criminality including abusing their own children. Their children will also develop to become insecure, dysfunction and will most likely by similar with their parents.
END QUOTE
http://www.attachmentdisorder.net/
The Link Between Substance Abuse and Attachment Disorder
BEGIN QUOTE from lower down the page under "Latest Posts" (emphasis added):
There have been a number of studies suggesting that attachment styles can be correlated to one’s involvement in substance abuse, which can be in the form of alcohol abuse, illicit drugs, and/or prescription medication. Accordingly, those people with insecure attachment are the most vulnerable to substance abuse, which can be their outlet for releasing their insecurities and anxieties.
. . .
Counter Intimacy
Thorberg and Lyvers (2006) stated that their “clients who were undergoing treatment for alcoholism, heroin addiction, or cannabis abuse” are having higher levels of insecure attachment which lead them to fear of intimacy. Insecure people do not want to engage in relationships. They make the “worst partners” as they tend to lack understanding and they are not expressive. As a result, they abuse their partners. To counter intimacy, they abuse substances as it extends or even betters their difficulties with developing intimacy and interpersonal functioning. One research suggested that alcohol, marijuana, amphetamines, cocaine, or heroin promote fear of intimacy.
The correlation between attachment styles and substance is multifaceted and is still being explored. More studies suggest that people with insecure attachment styles turn to drugs and alcohol to help them cope with stress and anxiety. As in the case with any substance addiction, the addiction needs to be dealt with first.
Pinterest page:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/462674561693909657/
"Addiction and Attachment Theory">
http://www.academia.edu/3491179/Addiction_and_Attachment_Theory
BEGIN QUOTE (emphasis added):
Addiction and Attachment Theory
Addiction appears in a myriad of forms. From the more recognizable abuse of substances such as alcohol and drugs ... Blane and Leonard (1987) identify four traditional models for understanding alcoholism (tension reduction theory, ...) . . .
An approach to understanding and treating addiction that has produced a great deal of research in recent decades, and which shows great promise for effective treatment of those who suffer with addictions, has come from attachment theory. This paper attempts to articulate those aspects of attachment theory relevant to understanding addiction from its theoretical perspective, define addiction in terms of attachment, and understand how addiction is treated as an attachment disorder. . . .
END QUOTE
http://center4familydevelop.com/adults.htm
BEGIN QUOTE (emphasis added):
Disorganized Adults
Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy for Adults and Couples
These individuals have a disorganized state of mind with respect to attachment. They do not have an organized approach to relationships. Often these adults exhibit behaviors that suggest a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder. They run very hot and cold and are quite mecurial As children they had histories of abuse, neglect, or severe loss. Their parents were unresponsive, inconsistent, punitive and insensitive. They learned to view others as unavailable, threatening and rejecting. They are afraid of genuine closeness and see themselves as unworthy of love and support. Disorganized adults show many antisocial behaviors such as lack of empathy and remorse. They are selfish, controlling, refuse personal responsibility for their actions, and disregard rules. Their experience of severe attachment trauma makes them much more vulnerable to a variety of emotional, social and moral problems. They are at high risk for alcohol and drug abuse, abusing their own children and other forms of criminality.
We don't know anyone who's actually 100% cured of RAD with absolutely NO evidence lingering.
We do know of some who have overcome RAD sufficiently to be considered more or less healthy adults with a significant degree of overcoming, relationship balance and emotional and mental health . . . etc.
My former husband and my current housemate have both helped many 100's of people with RAD to have better lives, relationships and personal psychological and emotional health.
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