(vanity)The French Nuclear Threat

Vanity Opinion | 3-14-2003 | robert

[Robert_Paulson2]

S-616 Le Triomphant
S-617 Le Temeraire

According to Centurion2000, these are the two nuclear submarines, ARMED with NUCLEAR warhead missiles that are capable of hitting the United States, Britain and Spain...

France, having closely allied itself with Sadaam Hussein, and against the United States, Britain, Spain and our allies in the War on Terror, may use the THREAT of their nuclear power to protect their ally in fact... Sadaam Hussein.

[Robert_Paulson2]

Where are these boats?

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I believe they should be scuttled... and the French Aircraft Carrier too.

Declare war on the USA... and offer back channel threats? Should mean military asset forfeiture on their part. Sink them, damage them or pull their screws off... but disable these assets please... USN....

[x1stcav]

Actually, there is a precedent for this. Oran, 1942. The last time we had to deal with unreliable frogs.

[Robert_Paulson2]

just a ping... to a bookmark thread so I don't forget to remember these two boat names.. thanks for posting them... to me.

[Poohbah]

Actually, it was 1940.

[Poohbah]

OK, please offer a plausible reason why the French would be willing to commit national suicide to protect Iraq.

The US and the UK together have about a gazillion times as many warheads.

[Centurion2000]

No problems ..... French Nuclear Capabilities

[Panzerfaust]

Note to Chirac: Play nice or we'll melt the Eiffel Tower

[LibKill]

Seeing as most of the Russian sub fleet can't sail anymore. I guess we could spare 4 fast attack subs to trail the 2 frog missle subs.

[Mr. Mojo]

Come on, RP2. Do you honestly think that France would commit national suicide over some two-bit dictator in Iraq? Every square inch of Paris (and their whole small nation) would be incinerated in less than 10 minutes if they tried such a thing.

[x1stcav]

I think Taranto was 1940, and beautifully executed by the Brits. I think Oran was our show in advance of the Torch landings in November '42. But I'm going to research.

[Poohbah]

I think Taranto was 1940, and beautifully executed by the Brits. I think Oran was our show in advance of the Torch landings in November '42. But I'm going to research.

Nope, Oran was a British show as well, and not nearly as well handled as Taranto--which came later.

Oran was on July 3rd, 1940, and it was predicated on denying the French fleet to the Axis--which was an absolute priority. Crunch here for more info.

[Robert_Paulson2]

well...

honestly pb.. I don't see a whole lot of "plausibilty" for any of the recent actions or threats the french have made. Unless they sold nukes to sadaam... and have allied with him militarily and the Russian or Chinese... Only a fool would undertake what they have thus far--unless that is the case.. and perhaps it is.

Their nutty actions, make me think they might be planning on gettingt real squirrelly on us... as they may have more closely allied themselves with Sadaam than we realize.

as to your request: "OK, please offer a plausible reason why the French would be willing to commit national suicide to protect Iraq."

I don't know, but bribing the Turks to turn us away, and siding with Sadaam as they have... seem pretty strong evidence that they, in fact, are determined to do just that...

---

FWIW... this would not be the first time we decided to keep very close tabs on the French Nuke boats... and I think NOW would be a very good time to drill on scuttling them.

I accept that you disagree.

Call it quacky "conspiracy nutology" as far as I care... but,

All I can say is, we shall see. And I hope YOU are right.

[x1stcav]

Damn!

That's what I like about this place; there are too many sharp people here. Just like a ground-pounder to stick his nose into naval history.

Thanks for the correction.

[Robert_Paulson2]

I was told the ruskies had three, but that they are very "dangerous"...

[Poohbah]

Pi$$ing us off isn't trying to commit national suicide.

Threatening to nuke us IS.

[x1stcav]

Ah, but I think I can at least acquit myself partially. To whit:

November 8, 1942
Landings made in Algiers and Oran in Algeria and in French Morocco. Air cover for the landings came from HMS Argus, and an escort carrier. Force H now including the carriers Furious, Victorious and Formidable patrolled the Western Mediterranean to prevent any Italian involvement. Three French destroyers and 8 submarines lost while resisting the landings. French battleship Jean Bart damaged in gun duel with USS Massachusetts.
Shakespeare class destroyer HMS Broke torpedoed and hit by coastal gunfire. Broke sunk November 9, 1942.
Destroyer Malcolm damaged by coastal gunfire.
French ship Primauget and 2 leading destroyers driven ashore with a further 4 destroyers and 7 submarines sunk.

[Robert_Paulson2]

They don't think we would strike back... I suspect.
And yes, I THINK THEY HAVE ALREADY THROWN THEIR NATION AWAY for a two bit dictator... and their friends, the soviets and red chinese...

put me down for the "he's nuts to believe it column..." because ALL their actions are pointing to it... in my "demented" view...

I think they are pushing us to the brink of nuclear war. I believe they SOLD or GAVE sadaam the plutonium that HE needed... just like they sold or gave him the other contraband materials that he was seeking under the terms of the embargo and restrictions. YES, YES... and YES...

I am of the opinion that THREATS may have been made and if they have, I want those bad boys buried at sea... by the huntin teams...

[Poohbah]

Different engagement--that was Casablanca, on the Atlantic coast.

Oran featured some VERY badly handled diplomacy by the British commander, who didn't offer the French a face-saving compromise that would have (a) kept the ships out of Axis hands (basically, they'd sail to French territories in the Western Atlantic), and (b) would've gotten them into Free French service pretty quickly.

[Poohbah]

They don't think we would strike back... I suspect.

Then you're saying that Chirac AND the entire French politico-military establishment is a bunch of complete f***in' idiots.

[x1stcav]

You know, I've actually all 15 volumns of Morrison's History of Naval Operations in WWII. Apparently they haven't done me much good. Think I need to revisit.

[Poohbah]

I don't know if Oran gets a fair shake in Morison--he's focused on US Naval operations (that IS the title). Oran is one of those battles that didn't get the scholarship it deserves.

[x1stcav]

I can't remember; it's been years since I last read them. It'll be good to reread with this in mind.

I've just been given what appears to be a very good read, An Army at Dawn, which as the title says is primarily about the groung operations in North Africa.

This was, for me, one of the most interesting periods of that war; trying to find out what works.

[Robert_Paulson2]

If it became known that they had threatened us with that... would you agree with crazy me?

I am guessing yes...

And we will have to wait to see what happens...

I hope you know I would rather be wrong.
if what we were to discover upon deposing sadaam were so insidious that it might destroy Chiraq... YES I think he would preemptively threaten and attempt to hit us.

I think FRANCE has assurances from RUSSIA and CHINA to back her up... WHO would have thought on 9-10 that we were going to be submarined by airplanes commandeered by arab extremists?

It is no stretch for ME to either imagine or believe that since FRANCE has been, actively commiting acts of war against the USA as late as January, by selling illegal parts and materials for WMD, they would also have a backup plan for destroying US power in the world ( a goal since degaulle 1965) that includes nuke subs attacking us...

According to degaulle and his apologists at that time... THE intent of their nuclear power was for use against the USA... and as a counterbalance to our growing power in the world. You were alive then, surely you remember.

I don't think the FRENCH have changed in their hatred of American power as it is a major part of their national psyche... perhaps you do... but I think this is l'vie de rose...

laugh all you want. I say they are a threat.

I guess you and I will find out... and actually I hope YOU turn out to be right...

[Centurion2000]

Then you're saying that Chirac AND the entire French politico-military establishment is a bunch of complete f***in' idiots.

Pobah, not that I'm betting that they would try to do something as stupid as nuking us, but based on their current activities do you think that Chiaq and crew are acting rationally ? ?

[Robert_Paulson2]

they seem to pretty much be proving that to my satistfaction... yes...

[Mr. Mojo]

They don't think we would strike back... I suspect.

You can't be serious --- you actually think that the French think that we wouldn't strike back after being nuked?!

[Robert_Paulson2]

#25 pretty much sums it up...

[Robert_Paulson2]

I think what they fear we will discover in Iraq will be so damaging, that we will destroy them anyway... at least the leadership.

Why else the crazy chiraq activities? They are going over the top for something other than a few cans of baby milk... even oil would not encourage them to go this crazy...

[Mr. Mojo]

Nothing we could find in Iraq would convince us to destroy France, and they know this. At the very most, we'd disband NATO and cut off all diplomatic relations.

[Poohbah]

If it became known that they had threatened us with that... would you agree with crazy me?

Yes. However, extraordinary claims--such as what you are making--require extraordinary proof--which is singularly lacking.

if what we were to discover upon deposing sadaam were so insidious that it might destroy Chiraq... YES I think he would preemptively threaten and attempt to hit us.

Under the French Constitution, he can't be tried for any criminal acts he may have undertaken before or during his Presidency. Clinton was reading it and saying, "Damn, why couldn't WE have that?"

I think FRANCE has assurances from RUSSIA and CHINA to back her up... WHO would have thought on 9-10 that we were going to be submarined by airplanes commandeered by arab extremists?

I think you're dead wrong on this one. There isn't a plausible motive for the Russians and the Chinese to commit suicide alongside the French.

It is no stretch for ME to either imagine or believe that since FRANCE has been, actively commiting acts of war against the USA as late as January, by selling illegal parts and materials for WMD, they would also have a backup plan for destroying US power in the world ( a goal since degaulle 1965) that includes nuke subs attacking us...

Go back on reread On Thermonuclear War, and provide a plausible motivation for France to take THAT big a leap up the escalation ladder. On a scale of 0 to 10, you're proposing that France move from 0.00000001 to 10 in one step--with no discernable motivation.

According to degaulle and his apologists at that time... THE intent of their nuclear power was for use against the USA... and as a counterbalance to our growing power in the world. You were alive then, surely you remember.

I've read DeGaulle's actual statements on the subject--they refer to the Force D'Frappe as a last-ditch means of preserving French sovereignty. All the scenarios discussed were in the context of the USSR attacking NATO in Europe--DeGaulle's specific worry was that the growing Soviet nuclear arsenal might deter the US from decisively defending Europe.

I don't think the FRENCH have changed in their hatred of American power as it is a major part of their national psyche... perhaps you do... but I think this is l'vie de rose...

Fine. You still have yet to come up with plausible motive for the French government to do this.

People don't try to commit suicide just because someone else makes more money.

laugh all you want. I say they are a threat.

Come up with a plausible scenario.

[Robert_Paulson2]

Nothing we could find in Iraq would convince us to destroy France

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NOTHING?

[Mr. Mojo]

Nothing

[Robert_Paulson2]

Just suppose, Chiraq goes crazier than he already is when we bypass him in the UN and go into Iraq... and he perhaps orders an attack on a us carrier group or troop concentration with a missile from one of his subs.

As you probably guessed from this scenario... I THINK he could go crazy enough to do it... and I think FRENCH PRIDE is extreme enough that some officer MIGHT JUST OBEY THE ORDER...

You don't think he is that nuts, or that his orders would be obeyed.

And on that we will have to disagree... but I would still like for our team to KNOW where those subs are... Is that okay with you? Or not?

[exnavy]

Want a good laugh? Try a google search for "French military victories".

[Poohbah]

Just suppose, Chiraq goes crazier than he already is when we bypass him in the UN and go into Iraq... and he perhaps orders an attack on a us carrier group or troop concentration with a missile from one of his subs.

SLBMs aren't targetable on carrier groups. And lobbing an SLBM at a troop concentration is going to generate an extreme over-reaction on the part of the US.

As for knowing where the subs are: we probably do already.

[B4Ranch]

The train was very crowded, so the soldier walked the length of the train, looking for an empty seat. The only unoccupied seat was directly adjacent to a well dressed middle aged lady and was being used by her little dog.

The war weary soldier asked, "Please, ma'am, may I sit in that seat?" The French woman looked down her nose at the soldier, sniffed and said, "You Americans. You are such a rude class of people. Can't you see my Little Fife is using that seat?"

The soldier walked away, determined to find a place to rest, but after another trip down to the end of the train, found himself again facing the woman with the dog.

Again he asked, "Please, lady. May I sit there? I'm very tired." The French woman wrinkled her nose and snorted, "You Americans! Not only are you rude, you are also arrogant. Imagine!"

The soldier didn't say anything else; he leaned over, picked up the little dog, tossed it out the window of the train and sat down in the empty seat. The woman shrieked and railed, and demanded that someone defend her and chastise the soldier.

An English gentleman sitting across the aisle spoke up, "You know, sir, you Americans do seem to have a penchant for doing the wrong thing. You eat holding the fork in the wrong hand. You drive your autos on the wrong side of the road. And now, sir, you've thrown the wrong bitch out the window."

[illumini]

Thanks to the ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION, France has the bomb.