Now this would make a good presidential candidate....

editorial | 1.24.04 | ashrak

[trussell]

I would say that they must show the earliest a baby HAS survived and make that the cut off. If a baby is shown to survive earlier than the law states then it could easily be changed to reflect that.

Then at this point, anyone who has previously aborted a baby after the date of the NEW cutoff should be charged with murder of a potentially sentient human being.

Would you agree to that stipulation? I doubt it.

[trussell]

What do you call "having a heartbeat" is that not a sign of being alive? A baby's heart begins to beat at 25 days gestation. Most women are not even aware they are pregnant by this time.

[ashrak]

If that heartbeat could continue on its own (that is without the mother...the host....I would.

"alive" to me is when that being can survive without a host.
Alive infers is releative and open to interpratation, hence the neverending arguemnts. I prefer "living" be the term of choice. And it can not be considered "living" when "living" is dependant upon a host.

Maybe this will help make my position clear, a being is not truly living until it can live independant of any other of life, until that time it is forming not living.


I would like to ask you this question. Lets see how you respond to this example.

A married man has four kids, say ages 6 to 12. Out of the blue,regardless of the precautions taken IE mom is on the pill and dad used a condom.... mom still comes up pregnant. Having this fifth child would put great strain on family finances thus making the other FOUR kids suffer. These two people planned very carefully for their family and tooh the precations you speak of but yet still is faced with this dilemma. In this example, denying the mother (and father) the right to choose hurts four kids and two parents..you in fact, thru your position, dictate that the youngest unborn has more rights, and is more important than the other SIX people combined.

When all precautions that can be taken, are taken and an unwanted harmful pregnancy happens, how can you feel justified in dictating their choice to them based on what YOU feel is right or wrong?

The majority of posts in this thread are about abortion. My point has been made, in that, this issue should not be the defining issue for presidential elections every four years when the arguments are the same over and over.

to the left: abortions on demand with no restraint or accountability is wrong and that is no longer the case....you get a time ( to be determined by the medical community as stated previously in this thread) and when it passes...TOUGH. no more late term unless it is a medical emergancy for baby or mom.

To the right: To remove ones choice to have an abortion within established timeframe is a direct violation of a persons free right to choose ones own way....you do not have the right to dictate your position to others.

To both..it is fine to speak your mind about what you beleive and what you think is right...but it is not OK to attempt to dictate that position to anyone else.

One persons rights stop where anothers begins....too many people tend to get caught up in their own rights and forget that other people have them too.

Freedom to choose ones own way thru life is the fundimental freedom that I hold dear. As many others do as well. This, of course has limits that need to be clear. I for one offer that it is time to adopt a comprimise in this issue to observe this for all people. And to avoid a snipe I pre emptively offer that people are defined as beings that can survive without a human host.

Why do so many think this is unatainable? I think the reason is this..they do not really want to face the fact that people think differantly and make differant decisions...that other people have that right just as they have the right to disagree and even speak out about it...problem is those people(on both sides) take it to far with the attempted imposition of THEIR beliefs on others.

That, in my oppinion, is the very opposite of what this country is supposed to be about. Time to face up people and accept that neither side will ever have its way totally, that they will never agree..and that is ok...not to agree....but to make that a reason for a lack of comprimise for advancement.......well, that just makes me feel like america is disintegrating and that rights of all people to choose their own way no longer matters.....back to basics please...and this can finnaly be done.the stalemate i mean.

[ashrak]

So by this post you think that a law can be passed and effedct people from the time before it was passed?
CMON MAN........your reaching.stretching.

No law in any area can be made to effect people before the law was made. That makes no sense.How can a person choose to do an illegal action when it is not illegal when they do it? You just absolutely love to remove choice dont you?
You are bordering on anti american values my friend...do you really not support peoples individual right to choose their own way thru life? and to make their own decisions about their own life? Do you honestly thik that you can dictate to all people what they can and cannot do in every aspect of their life?????

Go live iran man.Or maybe northewest pakistan...you would fit right in.

[JoJo Gunn]

I guarantee my last dime that you're no parent of three kids. You have all the thought processes and syntax of someone in junior high. You act as if you're the only one in the world who has shouted EUREKA!

And then there's this on your Freep page:

"slow then fast..................when I smoke yer ass........know..I aint last. "

So, hey man, just how old are you, dude?

[Ben Bolt]

Goodness ,
You cant decide what murder is and you think my home defense is your business ? You want to continue Social Security also . I've read enough . Later .

[trussell]

Rather than MURDER a baby, they could put it up for adoption. At least that way, the innocent baby would have the right to make his/her own choices for his/her life when he/she got older.

You have been successful in giving me a headache with your drivel. I am done posting to you.

[ashrak]

Does that baby make the decision to be adopted out? Do you know any adopted people today? Do you realize that not all people are happy or well adjusted after being adopted out? Have you thought about the life a person leads after adopting out a baby? Do you know any of them? Again you try to dictate what YOU think is right to others removing their choice, their ability to choose their own way.

I dismiss your premis of murder in the same way I have several times now. One cannot kill what does not yet live. By live, i do mean without a host.

You may indeed feel that adoption is a better alternative....and for some mothers and some babies you are 100% right....but see that does not make you 100% right all the time. Not all people adjust to finding out they are adopted and for one of my best friends, it was a leading contributer to his depression and eventual submission to crack and heroine trying to escape the pain of years and years of struggling with "WHY?". Take notice here friend, YOUR solution may avoid what you call murder, but I will argue that my friend has lived a lifetime of pain, distress, and undue punishment by someone that made what you call a "good" decision. You can call it drivel all you want pal....but it is obvious that you are on the outside looking in and wish to impose what you claim is "right".
Adoption may be right for some people but it was not right for my friend...not by a long shot.....as he sits unproductive fryed and wasting away. Yeah that was a good decision for him huh?

You go ahead and dismiss my posts. That is fine. It shows that the only option you pose is your sides ideology and that you are incapable of adult comprimise. You friend, are part of the problem. And IF you actually want to remove the right to choose ones own way thru life, you are indeed anti american at heart.

[JoJo Gunn]

What a pantload. Your friend's choice to be happy or a raging drunk is his/her choice alone.

Are you confusing abortion with suicide? If so, let's debate the "compromises" of suicide.

Now that ought to be reading for us to marvel and swoon at.

[trussell]

Thank you for responding to it. I cant even read it's ugly drivel. I don't care for my headache to return.

[JoJo Gunn]

This thread really has deteriorated, eh? And I suppose we'll never really find out it's age before it gets ejected. Aw, man!

[Ben Bolt]

Victimhood bump .. When you run on what is good for the Republic I might look at you . And no I do not believe you will ever qualify to run as a meter maid .

You are the spawn of a boomer lost in life looking for a reason to get out of bed in the morning . Now go weed your parent's yard then go spend your allowance at the local hand me down store .

I hear the neighborhood Dean club is hiring waiter staff and expect to get net 30 at best Troll .

[ashrak]

I think most people agree that moving forward thru comprimise is far better for the republic than non-stop never ending argument over the same topic. Stagnation is not good for the republic now and never will be.

It would be hard to weed my parents yard, as I have my own to worry about. You may however wish to do your chores for your weekly allowance. Funny how you think I am lost when you , like the others, have no valid comprimise to offer...hence your attack.

Funny how you call me troll. You posted to me remeber?
\You didnt do what I asked in this post didi you?
I guess you thought you were looking in the mirror when you clicked post.

Check out fool, unless you have options to post...your attack was weak and by doing so, you show your colors as nothing more than an ideolog of the highest caliber.

You claim to know what is good for thie republic?
Then why not post that? Why attack?
\
Nothing but another fool with no alternatives but to attack those that offer real ones.

check please, and you get a penny face down for quality.

[ashrak]

I agree that his choices are his own, but to say that his environment did not contribute to his decision making process is just foolish. He had no choice in adoption and I was simply pointing out that the people that claim adoption is all that and a bag of chips need to look at it from an adopted persons point of view also.

You wanna talk suicide? OK It is a sign of weakness for those that do it.Though I am sure many would welcome yours.
It is obvious that you did not read the posts that lead to that topic and do not understand context one bit.

If a person chooses to die, well that is their right, their choice to make. I suppose you would like to remove that choice as well. Figures. Seems you would like to remove all choices that you disagree with.... jeez you realy want a police state dont you?

None ever said that all choices were good all the time. I sure didnt. But you peeps sure like to imply that I did. The point is that people have to make up their own minds about what is best for them...i cannot understand why you wish to remove that right from any person...or why you think you have the right to do so...it amazes me...the balls you have to think you are so above everyone else that you can judge for all people what is best for them, when you dont even know them. PURE STUPIDITY AND BLISSFUL IGNORANCE on your part....grow up dude

[JoJo Gunn]

I lost a brother to suicide in February of '98. (And any of the mods can notify me and I can offer the proof of that). Lecture me about stupidity and ignorance.

Your posts are riddled with ad hominem attacks. You cry foul and call people fools. You have the argumentative style of a Leftist. You said:

"You wanna talk suicide? OK It is a sign of weakness for those that do it.Though I am sure many would welcome yours."

I don't think you're Freeper material. I say throw the bum out.

[ashrak]

I attack you based on self defense bone head try reading back a few and just see who attacked whom.

As for suicide, my old roommate came in all coked up and shot his bed, a few months later he shot himself in the head...all over his ex wife playing games with his kids. He blew his brains all over the bathroom wall.
Cry all you want buddy, maybe you should be less harsh if you dont want it thrown back at you.

You have no monopoly on the subject so quit cryin like you do.

As for your last comment, well your half right....you dont think.

Buddy I attack noone that does not attack me. Maybe you should think about that.

You dont like what I post so you you attack and now you try to silence me...to get me banned....you say I am not freep material....well look in the mirror fool, first for letters of this site F R E E...you have no concept of it.

If you wish to have a civilized conversation, then do as I asked and respond with alternative solutions instead of bogus attacks, either that or quit cryin when you get it right back at you. Cant take it? Dont dish it.

I. unlike you , treat people as they treat me. If you dont like they way I am treating you then take a look at your posts to me and you will see why. Make a change, grow up, and offer your oppinions about solutions instead of attacking me and mine....you will gain respect when you finally do...if you do.

A leftist...i love it...seems anyone that does not subscribe to your exact views is a leftist...get off it dude you dont even know me. If you did you would see how stupid that really sounds. You judge me over one issue.
Shows your mentality and mindset......Narrow and Pointed.

You are a disrespectful, antagonzing, devisive, agreesion filled, whiner that wishes to silence people that actually have ideas other than the status quo. You want respect man, you gotta earn it....and the way you treat people, you will never get any.

Jo Jo I once took care of a spider monkey with that name, and she had more decency towards people than you do.

My comment about people welcoming it was based on that dude...your lack of decency towards people.
You dont like how people respond to you...think about how you treat them and make a change. Grow up and quit whining.

I suppose I could hunt you , all over this site and snipe at you , but see I dont do that. I have stayed right here in this post pretty much, just to show dolts like you that I only attack people that attack me. I thank you for one thing, You as an example have prooven that for me soundly.

Now step off, son, and realize that your posts dont just go away, that people wondering who is right in this confrontation can just scroll up and read your idiotic attacks with ZERO alternatives contained in their words.

Bye now jo jo and I hope you see, for once, that all peole have differant oppinions on all issues and all people have the right to express them. I choose to hunt for middle ground soas to avoid confrontations like this and I have tried to quell your agression..but it seems you just dont give up. So fine I return your flame and buddy...you are charred..and I did so with plain truth. Accept this fact and go lick your wounds...come back when you would act as a civl adult with real debate.(that means alternative ideas for solutions) Got it?

[JoJo Gunn]

You seem upset.

[hellinahandcart]

I'd be upset too, if my Presidential Campaign thread were exiled to Chat Siberia where maybe ten people total are looking at it, and I was too stupid to realize even that much.

My, he do run on though...don't he??

[hellinahandcart]

My bad, we're now in the Backroom Badlands.

We'll know the thread has truly died when it ends up on RLC Island.

[JoJo Gunn]

I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's worth; banks are going bust; shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter; punks are running wild in the streets, and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat. And we sit watching our TVs while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be! We all know things are bad -- worse than bad -- they're crazy. It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out any more. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we're living is getting smaller, and all we say is "Please, at least leave us alone in our own living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my my steel-belted radials, and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone."

Well I'm not going to leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don't want you to protest; I don't want you to riot; I don't want you to write to your Congressman, because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street. All I know is that first, you've got to get mad. You've gotta say, "I'm a human being! My life has value!"

So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go the window, open it, and stick your head out and yell, "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!!"