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A vanity from a former Hostage
self | October 22nd, 2004 | Svetlana Gubareva

Posted on 10/22/2004 10:23:46 PM PDT by svni

click here to read article

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too famous to be targeted by the FSB

Members Urge Aggressive Investigation of Murdered Forbes’ Moscow Editor

51 posted on 10/23/2004 11:46:28 PM PDT by Askel5 ( Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. )
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To: MarMema
=== You say you don't defend terrorists and then you say this.

(Sharon is my hero)

I see no difference between those supporting these monsters here on FR and those who actually do the killing. I see no difference between those supporting these monsters here on FR and those who actually do the killing.

What part of terrorists threatening to blow having blown up hundreds of civilians do they not understand?

While you're busy-busy-busy posting Facts to enlighten others on this particular thread, perhaps you could point out to Cold Heat that the IRA got their ideas for terrorism and political murder (which they used to pressure the Crown, the US and the UN into Da Briarpatch) from the only successful terrorists the world has ever known.

(Save those who were sent packing back to Russia in sealed trains with plenty of spending money, perhaps.)

52 posted on 10/24/2004 12:58:56 AM PDT by Askel5 ( Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. )
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To: Calpernia; All

I can't see the url, but will post the site that it came from in the next post.

this article from Canada refers to the lies that Russia told.

Is this the same gas that Reno and Clinton used on the Americans at Waco?

Hostages weren't priority, critics charge The Canadian Press (10/30/2002)

By Fred Weir / The Canadian Press

Moscow - Relief has turned to bewilderment and anger as Russians count the dead among hostages in the storming of a
Moscow theatre and the use of a secret incapacitating gas to thwart terrorists who had threatened to kill hundreds of captives.
"There are big questions about the priorities of our authorities in this situation," says Andrei Piontkovsky, director of the
independent Centre for Strategic Studies in Moscow.
Piontkovsky and other critics have suggested that saving ordinary citizens' lives were not at the top of the list of official
concerns in the weekend operation.
Despite efforts by President Vladimir Putin to reform the bureaucracy, critics say the government's reputation for callousness,
secrecy and fibbing to the public has resurfaced during the hostage crisis.
This group of substances can kill pain and dull the senses, but may also bring on coma and death by shutting down breathing and
"There is a well-known Russian habit of overdoing things," commented Lev Fyodorov, a former Soviet chemical weapons
scientist who now heads the independent Council for Chemical Security in Moscow.
"The doses they injected into the theatre were far too great. . . . They did not take into account that many people inside the
theatre were from risk groups, such as pregnant women, people with heart, kidney or liver problems, elderly people and so on."
Putin has publicly lamented the loss of life and asked for forgiveness that hostages died in the crisis, but relatives of some
victims had not received official information about their loved ones by Monday evening.
"It seems that in Russia, victory is always three-quarters disaster," commented Alexander Konovalov, an expert with the
Institute of Canada-USA Studies in Moscow.

53 posted on 10/24/2004 4:26:59 AM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: Calpernia; All

The previous article that I posted, came from page 18, there
are 20 pages of articles, several worth reading and thinking about. They are under the media link.

This is G o o g l e's cache of as retrieved on Oct 20, 2004 19:33:14 GMT.

To link to or bookmark this page, use the following url:

Google is not affiliated with the authors of this page nor responsible for its content.
These search terms have been highlighted:

Do you agree that the
events in the Moscow
theatre require an
independent international



Not Sure

Plea for Justice
We, the parents and son of Grigory Burban who died as a result of gas recklessly used by the Russian
authorities in Moscow's “Nord-Ost” hostage standoff are asking the following:

Everyone who values human life, who does not want the tragedy to repeat itself, and never to see the names
of the loved ones in the lists of deceased must join us in our efforts. We are convinced that our son and my
father, one of more than 128 hostages, had died due to criminal negligence of the Russian authorities which
have not provided timely and adequate medical help after the theatre's storm. People in charge did not follow
the most basic procedures of rescuing hostages who were poisoned by gas. The Russian government's
actions were immoral and constitute a crime against humanity. This crime must be solved and the perpetrators
must be punished.

Russian government attempts to cover up the aftermath of the “Nord-Ost” tragedy. To this date, the
authorities have not released a full list of victims. Information has been censored and access to victims in the
hospitals was blocked to the journalists and diplomats. Russian government is using the pretext of war
against terrorism to make people believe that all the means are acceptable in fighting terrorism, including
killing its own people and foreigners. Those 128 hostages have not died from the gunshots of the terrorists.
They have died because people in charge care more about political agenda than human lives. They have died
because of the government that historically puts its state affairs above all, even human life.

It is yet to be determined what exactly went wrong with the planning and the execution of the rescue
operation that resulted in so many deaths. We ask the relatives, victims, specialists, journalists, human rights
activists, and everyone else who has a strong opinion about this terrible tragedy to try to help us in our
efforts to bring those responsible to justice. It is our duty to do so in order to ensure that no one, nowhere,
and at no time will be a victim of such crimes.

Terrorism cannot be justified. Neither can be the actions of the government that values lives of its own
citizens no more than lives of the very terrorists it is trying to defeat.

54 posted on 10/24/2004 4:36:14 AM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: Calpernia; All


November 14, 2002
No inquiry into Nord-Ost drama
By Artyom Vernidoub, Viktor Dimentman

The State Duma has rejected calls for a
parliamentary investigation into last month’s
hostage-drama in a Moscow musical theatre that
ended with 128 hostages dead - most of them
poisoned by gas used by the security forces to
disable the terrorists. It now seems there will be no
probe into the storming and its aftermath. And not
only this time, but in the future if a similar tragedy
ever takes place again.

The lower house was to review the proposal of the
Union of the Rightist Forces (SPS) over a week ago,
just before the November 7 holiday (Russia’s
National Day of Accord and Reconciliation), but at
their last pre-holiday session they said they needed
more time to discuss the issue. An alternative draft
resolution submitted by another liberal party –
Yabloko – had not even been included in the
agenda of that session, which prompted Grigory
Yavlinsky and his colleagues to hold a grudge
against the right-wingers and accuse them of
conspiring with the Kremlin.

It could be argued that the Duma’s liberal factions
behaved somewhat strangely. From the very start it
was clear that their proposals would not receive
any support from the pro-Kremlin factions.

The leftist forces in the State Duma have banded
together following the theatre siege, avoiding any
public statements on the issue (other than
Zyuganov’s claim that Putin was to blame for
everything), meaning the rightists should have
known better than to count on the Communists’
support for their initiatives.

However, instead of merging their efforts, the
liberals lapsed into mutual mudslinging. To begin
with, the SPS refused to discuss its draft resolution
for an inquiry with Yabloko, and Yavlinsky’s
supporters, for their part, said the SPS’s draft had
been composed to please the Kremlin, since it
placed the blame for the hostages’ deaths on
medical staff.

''The SPS’s draft does not call for an investigation
into the true cause of the hostages’ deaths and
claims that this subject should be closed
altogether,'' the deputy chairman of the Yabloko
faction Sergei Ivanenko told the press.

''For me those allegations are like water off a
duck’s back,'' Boris Nemtsov later retorted.

On Wednesday the SPS and Yabloko continued to
argue, completely destroying any chance of a
parliamentary probe.

Deputy chairman of the SPS faction Boris
Nadezhdin tried to explain that the difference
between the two drafts was minimal, while
Yabloko’s Ivanenko did find a difference, and a very
substantial one: ''The SPS assumes that the
operation to liberate the hostages was carried out
brilliantly, while we think that the parliamentary
commission must find out how it was carried out.''

Only the maverick Liberal-Democratic Party leader
Vladimir Zhirinovsky interfered in the squabble
between Yabloko and the Rightists. He demanded
those deputies who entered into contact with the
hostage-takers be punished. Obviously, by that
Zhirnovsky meant Grigory Yavlinsky, Boris Nemtsov
and Irina Khakamada, but not Iosif Kobzon. The
deputies were among those with whom the
terrorists were willing to discuss their demands.

Zhirinovsky said that at the deputies’ meeting with
Putin held during the theatre siege, he was the only
one who demanded that the authorities begin to
storm the building as soon as possible, while other
Duma leaders beseeched the President to launch
talks with the terrorists.

Yabloko’s Sergei Mitrokhin has since called for
Zhirinovsky to be held liable for spreading

The deputies Oleg Utkin (Unity), Yuri Konev
(People’s Deputy Group), and Anatoly Chekhoyev
of the Communist Party spoke against both drafts,
effectively putting an end to yesterday’s debate. As
a result, the draft of the rightists received only 38
votes, while 124 deputies backed Yabloko’s
proposal. The required minimum was 226.

Thus, the parliamentary probe into last month’s
hostage crisis has failed to get off the ground.
Initially it had seemed that the determination of the
liberals might challenge the official propaganda.
The Kremlin probably recognized the threat,
prompting Putin to summon Yavlinsky on the eve of
the November holidays and praising him for
keeping silent on the Nord-Ost issue.

Putin lauded the Yabloko leader for his conduct
during the tragic events in Moscow. Yavlinsky was
among those whom the hostage-takers invited to
act as a negotiator on behalf of the authorities. He
spent several hours in talks with the rebels and
when he emerged from the captured building he did
not utter a single word to the press.

It was after Yavlinsky’s visit to the Kremlin that the
two liberal factions started exchanging accusations,
and as a result failed to agree on a joint resolution.

At the same time, in all fairness, it is worth noting
that the two drafts did differ on some issues.
Yabloko suggested that the crisis be analyzed as a
whole and called not just for an investigation into
the liberation of the hostages, but into the security
situation in Moscow, in Chechnya and throughout
the country in general.

Yabloko’s draft contained a very important
provision that had skipped the deputies’ attention
amid the scandals; a call to amend the constitution
and to establish a legal mechanism for
parliamentary probes.

Indeed, no Duma initiative will ever bring any
results unless Duma inquiries get legal status. The
first to raise the subject was the former FSB chief,
deputy Nikolai Kovalyov. ''Parliamentary
investigations are not provided for in our
Constitution. The deputies can only talk, debate
and nothing more.''

As for the Rightists, their resolution called for those
responsible for the deaths to be identified. To that
end they had already set up their own public
commission and invited doctors to take part in its
session. A week ago the inquiry’s results were
forwarded to the Kremlin.

''The results of the commission’s work are already
on the president’s desk,” Boris Nadezhdin told the
press last week adding that if the Kremlin ignores
the commission’s conclusions, they will go public
next week.

Judging by the SPS’s silence, the Kremlin has taken
its conclusions into consideration, while Yabloko’s
proposal to legalize parliamentary inquiries is, most
likely, doomed to fail.

The result of the squabble, initiated by the liberals,
is pitiful – the public will never know exactly who
many hostages died in the Nord-Ost raid, who and
how organized the rescue operation, and whether
anyone will ever be held liable for the tragedy. The
pro-Kremlin deputies, as it transpired on
Wednesday, are not interested in the answers at


1779 Massachusetts Ave, NW, Washington, DC 20036-2109
Ph: (202) 332-0600 · Fax: (202) 462-4559

55 posted on 10/24/2004 6:22:18 AM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: Calpernia; All

Corrected url for post #55

56 posted on 10/24/2004 6:26:47 AM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: All; Calpernia

Part of a search, I found #2 very interesting.

Results 1 - 9 of about 11 for Anti-terrorists (secret services) came to power in the Russian Federation. (0.45 seconds)

Power Ministries / Intelligence - Russian Federation
... Defense Minister Lyubov Kudelina, who came to that ... And how effective are the
"anti-terrorists" these days ... that the effectiveness of all secret services, the FSS
... - 101k -
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... of Russia’s most experienced anti-terrorists experts ... he concluded that most
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... extremist groups (Sects, etc.) - 7.7% Secret services of other nations - 4.2% US
secret service - 6.4 ... where the non-stop anti-terrorists operation in the ... - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

ISCIP - The NIS Observed: Analytical Review: 8 April 2004
... menial landscaping tasks around their secret base. ... decree, four new Federal
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... their collaboration with us as secret as possible ... If anti-terrorists twist the
of terrorism so ... not remember any vigils or memorial services or candle ... - Supplemental Result -
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1960 ...
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In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some
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57 posted on 10/24/2004 7:10:47 AM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: Calpernia; All

This did not all print, there are 2 different people who say that they were told all were safe.

G o o g l e's cache of as retrieved on Oct 15, 2004 12:08:32 GMT.

To link to or bookmark this page, use the following url:,+2002+terrorists+Nord-Ost++Russia+news&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&client=googlet

Google is not affiliated with the authors of this page nor responsible for its content.
These search terms have been highlighted:

Text only

You are here: BBC > Science & Nature > TV & Radio Follow-up >

BBC Two, Thursday 15 January 2004,
The Moscow
Theatre Siege

The Moscow Theatre Siege - transcript

NARRATOR (JACK FORTUNE): A year ago in Moscow terrorists took a
thousand people hostage and threatened to kill them. The Russians
problem was how to get them out, alive.

ROBIN HORSFALL: A traditional type of assault under this
circumstance was highly unlikely to be successful. The Russians
needed another option and fortunately they had one.

NARRATOR: When special forces stormed the building they used a
secret weapon never tried before. A mysterious knockout gas put over
a thousand people to sleep. A hundred and seventy never woke up.
The Russian authorities claimed the gas was not lethal but they
refused to say what it was.

harmless then why is the formulae a state secret.

NARRATOR: So why did so many people die? And what was the
mystery gas? Tonight Horizon investigates the tragedy of the Moscow
Theatre Siege.

NARRATOR: On October 23rd 2002 on the outskirts of Moscow a
thousand people were enjoying a night out at the theatre. Nord Ost
was a romantic musical set during the second world war. In the stalls
was Svetlana Gubareva her thirteen year old daughter Alexandra and
her American fiancé Sandy. The family were there to celebrate, they’d
just been given permission to emigrate to America.

working out very well and we were in high spirits. We set off for a
stroll around town, did lunch, and when we got back to the Metro
station we bought the theatre tickets, we wanted to carry on the

NARRATOR: Just after the interval the plot took an unexpected twist.
It was caught on the theatre’s video. A shot rang out. Masked figures
spread through the theatre.

how well the director had worked such a clever stunt in to the play. I
couldn’t believe it was true for a long time.

NARRATOR: But it wasn’t part of the play. Forty heavily armed men
and women had taken over the theatre. The women had explosives
strapped to their bodies. They had also brought two massive bombs
which they forced their hostages to help them place among the seats.

heavy, very heavy indeed. And when we put it in the middle of the
balcony right by the parapet two men and a woman began arming it.
Very slowly and very carefully.

NARRATOR: The terrorists were from Chechnya, a Russian province
fighting for independence. The group’s leader Movsar Barayev had a
terrifying announcement.

NARRATOR: Unless Russia withdrew its troops from Chechnya they
would start to kill the hostages. They themselves were not afraid to

anyone who got up from their seat and if government didn’t give in to
their demands then they promised to blow up the whole building.

NARRATOR: One of those now under Baria’s control was child actress
Kristina Kyrbatov. Her parents were on their way to collect her when
they heard the news.

her sister and said tell mummy and daddy that we’ve been taken
hostage. I can't talk any more, I love you all. That was it, that was the
last we heard for three days.

NARRATOR: It was the start of a week which would shock Russia
profoundly. In the days that followed the families of a thousand
hostages watched in horror, and the rest of the world was transfixed
as crisis turned to tragedy. Outside the Russian army quickly
surrounded the theatre and a stand off began.

Prof PAUL WILKINSON (Centre for the Study of Terrorism): President
Putin and his security advisors regarded this as an extremely er
desperate situation, the worst hostage situation they’d ever faced and
indeed the worst that has been faced by any er democratic country.

NARRATOR: The conflict in Chechnya had been notoriously brutal.
There was barbarity on both sides. Now the Chechens have brought
the fight to the heart of Russia. Just miles from the Kremlin itself.
Compromise seemed highly unlikely. So the Russians had to work out
how to free the hostages without the Chechens blowing up the
theatre. The scale of the challenge faced by Russian military planners
is well known to Robin Horsfall. He was in the SAS team which
stormed the Iranian Embassy in London in 1980.

ROBIN HORSFALL (SAS, 1978-1984): The traditional approach is to
mount an assault through multiple entry points simultaneously, using
speed, aggression and surprise. The problem with this is they couldn’t
get the surprise factor in to it.

NARRATOR: The Russian troops would have to fight their way along a
hundred feet of corridors before they could reach the hall. They would
also have to attack up a well defended staircase.

ROBIN HORSFALL : So you're not going to get a quick and successful

NARRATOR: The whole operation would take precious minutes and
give the Chechens ample time to set off their explosives.

ROBIN HORSFALL: The largest explosive devise was based in the
centre of the auditorium, right in the centre of all the hostages. If this
explosive device had gone off the whole of the ceiling would have
come down on to the hostages inside and could have caused in excess
of eighty percent casualties and it would end in complete and
catastrophic disaster.

NARRATOR: A traditional assault was highly unlikely to succeed. The
Russians would have to come up with something new. Inside the
theatre it soon became clear how ruthless the Chechens could be. At
three thirty a.m. six hours in to the siege a young woman wandered in
to the hall from the street. She started shouting at the terrorists.

through the side doors. And there were two short bursts of gunfire.
And then there was dead silence. At that moment we realised this was
no joke.

NARRATOR: the Chechens had proved they were ready to kill. The
Russian position was desperate. So they decided to do something
never tried before. They would use a secret weapon, gas. For half a
century hostage rescue teams around the world have searched for a
gas that would knock people out without killing. It could save
thousands of lives.

Dr BERNARD RILEY (Queens Medical Centre, Nottingham): If you look
at the frequency at which hostages are taking er on a worldwide basis
you can understand that, that the goal is immeasurable, it’s a
priceless commodity if you could actually have something that could
do, do this.

NARRATOR: Over the years many drugs have been investigated but
nobody had found one that worked. The problem was how to put the
terrorists to sleep without killing any hostages.

Dr MARK WHEELIS (University of California at Davis): Narcing
somebody out is a substantial um, er pharmacological effect and what
we’re trying, what we’re asking this agent to do is substantially affect
somebody’s er, er central nervous system and yet not cause any
lethality, that’s a tall order.

NARRATOR: For the west the perfect knockout gas remained allusive.
But it seems the Russians thought they had found the answer. By the
small hours of Saturday morning, three days in to the siege, they were
ready to put it to the test. At five thirty a.m. while most of the
hostages slept the operation began.

heard a distinctive hissing sound, just like when you turn on a gas

NARRATOR: The Chechens also realised something was happening,
and panicked.

remember before I passed out was two Chechens on the stage
shouting something up to the balcony, then they ran out of the hall.

NARRATOR: The men ran to the outer corridors where they broke
windows and started to fire wildly out at the Russians. But the
Chechen women who could blow up the theatre at any moment were
still in the hall with the hostages. So the Russians did not attack, they
waited for the gas to work.

dulling of the senses, weakness, indifference. I couldn’t smell
anything and my hearing was very faint. Everything was sort of cut
off. I really wanted to go to sleep.

NARRATOR: Twenty minutes passed, still they waited. Then a hostage
walked out, apparently unaffected. It was proof the gas had not yet
knocked everybody out. So the Russians kept waiting. Finally at six
twenty five, a whole hour after the gas was first pumped in, the
special forces attacked. When they got to the auditorium they shot the
unconscious Chechen women point blank. They couldn’t risk them
waking and detonating the bombs.

and there was shouting in Chechen and Russian.

NARRATOR: Then in a storeroom upstairs they caught up with the
Chechen leader Movsar Barayev.

back, I think it was a shell casing, then everything went quiet. All I
could hear was Russian. Then I realised that it was all over.

NARRATOR: Not a single soldier had been injured, no hostages had
been caught in the cross fire. In a building nearby anxious relatives
were told the good news.

us it had been successful and all the children were alive, they
definitely told us that. We were so happy, kissing and hugging each
other, jumping and shouting for joy.

NARRATOR: It looked as if the operation and its use of the mysterious
gas had been a stunning success. Later that morning hundreds of
relatives thronged to hospitals anxious to find their loved ones. Among
them were Vladimir and Natasha Kyrbatov. They had been told a girl
matching their daughter’s description was at hospital number thirteen.

her again, what she was wearing and so on they calmly said yes we
have a girl like that here, but she is in the morgue. She was
underneath a blanket and we could only see her trainers. We identified
her, signed the form and that was it.

NARRATOR: Svetlana Gubareva woke up in hospital no knowing where
her family was.

bed and heard them listing names on the radio. I heard my own name
and started listening more carefully. Then I heard the phrase, sadly
there have been fatalities among the hostages. Yesterday Alexander
Gubareva died in hospital.

NARRATOR: Not only had Svetlana lost her daughter, her American
fiancée Sandy had also died. As the day wore on the death toll rose
relentlessly. Russia’s stunning victory had turned to tragedy. For grief
stricken relatives it was incomprehensible. A hundred and twenty nine
hostages had died. Their loved ones demanded to know why. Despite
the death toll the authorities claimed the operation had been a great
success. And they had a surprising explanation for the tragedy. They
said it had nothing to do with the mysterious gas. Officials claimed the
one hundred and twenty nine hostages died because they already had
life threatening diseases.

VICTOR PREOBRAJENSKIJ (Russian Centre for Disaster Medicine): In
most cases there were serious illnesses like bronchial asthma or heart
disease, in a number of cases there were heart attacks caused by
circulatory disease. Combined with exhaustion and stress over three
days this in itself could have very serious consequences.

NARRATOR: But nobody believed it. Least of all like Vladimir Natasha
who had lost lively young children.

had supposedly gone without food people are trying to tell me it was
because of this but of course I don’t believe that, it’s rubbish. The only
reason that I can accept is that she was poisoned by the gas.

NARRATOR: The outrage of the victim’s families was matched by
news reports around the world. Some claimed nerve gas had been
used, that would have broken international law. Four days after the
theatre was stormed the authorities tried to put a stop to the

YURY SHEVCHENKO (Russian Health Minister): To neutralise the
terrorists we used a substance based on derivatives of fentanyl. Such
substances are medical drugs which can produce a very quick
anaesthetic effect. They are widely used in medicine and on their own
are not lethal.

NARRATOR: Fentanyl, far from being a nerve gas or even a weapon it’s
a common pain killer, a man made opiod like morphine, only stronger.
Anaesthetists like Bernard Riley use fentanyl every day. A small dose
of fentanyl gives pain relief.

Dr BERNARD RILEY: What I’m going to do is give you this powerful
painkiller that’s going in.

NARRATOR: A larger dose will make you unconscious.

Dr BERNARD RILEY: You might feel as if you’ve had a couple of pints
of cider by now, as that stuff’s circulated around your body. Are you

NARRATOR: But there is one drawback, fentanyl can stop you

Dr BERNARD RILEY: Because of the effects of the fentanyl you can see
he’s not breathing at all. So until he starts to breath spontaneously on
his own I just have to keep on squeezing the bag.

NARRATOR: Although Fentanyl can stop you breathing there is an
antidote called naloxone which reverses the effects. Because of this it
might have seemed sensible for the Russians to try fentanyl.

Dr BERNARD RILEY: It’s very stable in terms of its effect on the heart,
it can be delivered as a vapour and most importantly of all it’s got a
very effective antidote. So putting all of that together it might seem
reasonable to use it.

NARRATOR: The idea that fentanyl might have been used was
supported by events on the day of the assault. As these pictures show
the special forces brought supplies of naloxone. And it seemed to
work. So why did so many people die? One possible answer may lie in
the rescue operation itself. Once the troops had secured the theatre
doctors from the Moscow rescue service rushed to help. But nobody
had told them in advance about the gas.

ALEXANDER SHABALOV (Moscow Rescue Services): Nobody warned us
that they had used special gas. The only thing we heard was on the
government radio channel. We were just told that we should take our
medical kits to give first aid to the victims.

NARRATOR: Because they hadn’t been warned the rescue workers
hadn’t brought enough naloxone, neither had the special forces. Just
seventeen doctors were confronted by a thousand unconscious
casualties. They were forced to call in troops to help evacuate them.
The soldiers inexperienced in first aid dragged people out and laid
them on their backs where they could easily choke. Within minutes
the medics were completely overwhelmed.

ALEXANDER SHABALOV: People were just dumped in a heap. It was
impossible to tell who had injections and who hadn’t. Some may have
had two, others none at all.

NARRATOR: So was the botched medical response the cause of the
disaster. It appeared to explain everything. And it seemed to let
fentanyl off the hook. But there was just one problem, scientists
around the world were beginning to doubt if the Russians had used
fentanyl at all. It was all a question of quantity. The volume of the hall
was thirteen thousand, five hundred cubic metres, and there were
over a thousand people inside. To knock everybody out would take a
huge amount of fentanyl. In California one scientist had worked out
just how much.

Dr MARK WHEELIS: If you want to figure out how much fentanyl it
would have taken in Moscow we have to make some assumptions.
First we have to estimate the dosage needed per kilogramme of
bodyweight in the aerosol form. And we have to know how much an
average er person in the theatre weighed. And we have to know what
their respiratory rate was, how much they were, how much air they
were breathing in in a given time. And finally we have to know the
total volume of the air space in the theatre. If we put all that together,
do the math, we come out with a number, we can estimate that it
would take nineteen and a half kilogrammes of fentanyl, nearly fifty
pounds of fentanyl, way too much to be practical to get in to the air
volume and the theatre in the small amount of time that was
available. I don't think fentanyl could have been the agent used.

NARRATOR: Mark Wheelis’s view is supported by evidence from the
theatre. Most of the hostages say they were knocked out within
minutes of the gas first appearing. To pump in fifty pounds of fentanyl
would have taken much longer. This suggests the Russians used a
drug far stronger than fentanyl, but what? Because fentanyl is man
made it can easily be manipulated by scientists. They’ve developed
dozens of so called derivatives or variations of the drug. Some even
stronger than the original. So perhaps the Russians had used one of
these. In Salt Lake City that’s the view of one scientist who ought to
know. Ted Stanley is a renowned anesthesiologist. He has also done
work to develop a knockout gas. The work was commissioned by the

Prof TED STANLEY(University of Utah): The US er government agencies
er came and asked us if we would study er some of these drugs in
animals as a precursor to possibly using these compounds to
immobilise human beings.

NARRATOR: In the mid nineteen nineties Professor Stanley conducted
a series of experiments using the most powerful derivatives of
fentanyl. One was sufentanyl. Sufentanyl is basically the fentanyl
molecule with an extra element, sulphur. This makes it ten times
stronger. But Dr Stanley argues that even this was probably not
strong enough for what the Russians needed to do.

Prof TED STANLEY: I think that sufentanyl was a possible substance
that was used but the victims had an affect that lasted too long and
sufentanyl would have been shorter. And I think that a stronger
substance was probably used.

NARRATOR: There is another derivative which is even stronger. It’s
made by taking the basic fentanyl molecule and adding carbon to
create carfentanyl.

Prof TED STANLEY: Carfentanyl is ten times stronger than sufentanyl,
a hundred times stronger than fentanyl and ten thousand times
stronger than morphine.

NARRATOR: the Russians would have needed just six hundred and
fifty grams of carfentanyl to knock out everybody in the Moscow
theatre. That’s just half the amount of sufentanyl they would have
needed and a thirtieth of the fentanyl. That’s why Professor Stanley
believes carfentanyl is the most likely candidate for the mystery gas.
But there’s just one problem with carfentanyl it’s not meant to be
used on humans. Carfentanyl is so strong it can knock out the world’s
most powerful animals. This bison is being tranquilised so the vets can
treat it for parasites. It weighs almost a tonne and will be completely
sedated by just four and a half milligrammes.

Dr TERRY KREEGER (Wyoming Game and Fish Department): If a
human received the dosage that we prepared for the bison that person
would show all the classical signs of a narcotic or an opiod overdose.
That is there’d be behavioural changes, the person would be dizzy, he
or she may vomit, er they would pass out and as they got deeper and
deeper in to, to anaesthesia if you will er respiration would probably
stop. They would stop breathing, and if at that point there wasn’t
medical intervention the person probably would die from this drug.

NARRATOR: Used correctly carfentanyl is perfectly safe, but in the
Moscow theatre anything this powerful would have been extremely
risky. Carfentanyl is so potent that a safe dose for each person would
need to be infinitesimal, getting it right would be critical.

Dr BERNARD RILEY: The danger of using a very potent substance like
carfentanyl is because the dosage to achieve the effect you want is so
small that a small mistake, a small margin of error becomes extremely

NARRATOR: What would make it even more dangerous is that some
people would need far less of the drug to knock them out than others.
It depends on factors like age and weight, and the strong fit Chechens
were likely to be among the most resistant.

Dr MARK WHEELIS: You have to use a dose of anaesthetic that is
sufficient to with confidence knock out the, the young health hostage
takers er that’s going to drive you to use a dose, dose that is
potentially quite dangerous to the, to at least some of the people

58 posted on 10/24/2004 7:23:35 AM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: nw_arizona_granny; Askel5; svni
"It seems that in Russia, victory is always three-quarters disaster,"

That should be engraved on a monument somewhere.

You know, if this topic is too hot for regular forums, and has to be placed in the 'smokey backroom', perhaps it would be better to delete the whole thing.

59 posted on 10/24/2004 10:34:35 AM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: struwwelpeter

Perhaps one of the Mods will oblige if svni asks.

60 posted on 10/24/2004 11:12:48 AM PDT by Askel5 ( Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. )
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To: MarMema; svni; FormerLib; katnip; struwwelpeter; Agrarian; Destro; A. Pole; jb6; RusIvan
For all the critics of that operation in the theater, I have but one query: How would you do it with an 80%+ survival rate in a situation where the hostages are in an enclosed building, the columns are mined to explode and demolish the buildings, suiciders with vests are spread out within the crowd and the 30 odd terrorists are armed to the teeth. Then entrances are mined too boot. Please, all the critics out there: how would you do it? And if you don't know then I have one simple request for the lot: STFU. Since the majority of the critics have never spent day one in uniform, have never had to make decisions on people's lives, have never faced such situations or pressures and have no knowledge of such things: STFU and go learn or stay STFUed.

As for those who have no brains or backbone and will now whine: negotiate, give in. Then you are clueless, no less then clueless, you are selfish and evil. Why? Because by giving in to evil, you commit evil, you condemn other innocents to the same fate that you had. Danegeld is great, for the Danes, sucks for those who now can't get rid of the Danes.

For the lefty Russian critics who think that the US is some saint who will always get its citizens out by making nice with the enemy because US citizen lives are more important then US foreign policy or the US as a whole, you are clueless. The US is not stupid enough to negotiate with terrorists, just like Russian, Britian (for now), Italy, etc. Spain negotiated, nay, Spain turned into a true whore and allowed itself to be raped by the islamics and yet last week another islamic cell was busted getting ready to remind Spain why it's a terrorist's biatch. Spain and France and all these other gutless peoples are like battered wives: the keep going back to their batterers thinking if they just give in, next time will be different: this is a sick pathology and enough people in Russia, the US, and other nations also have it (anything but face the hard choice of fighting for your survival): thankfully in nations such as Russia and the US, the adults are in charge.

61 posted on 10/24/2004 1:10:14 PM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: jb6

One of the terrorists in the theater was with an official Russian delegation on a trip abroad.

I have to check the details but I posted it some weeks ago.

He boasted of his role in the attack, if memory serves me, and then died in a big car accident.

62 posted on 10/24/2004 2:15:52 PM PDT by Snapple
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To: Snapple
As I recall, the only person who was quoted as being in the FSB showed proof that he had never even spoken to the journalists that wrote about him.

Stop excusing the islamic terrorists, it's sickening.

63 posted on 10/24/2004 2:17:37 PM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: jb6

What are you talking about?

I am saying that someone with a position in the Russian government may have been with the terrorists. That is nothing to do with excusing anything.

I have to find the report again.

64 posted on 10/24/2004 2:23:03 PM PDT by Snapple
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To: Snapple
One of the terrorists in the theater was... died in a big car accident.

Khanpash Terkibayev

65 posted on 10/24/2004 2:35:12 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: Snapple

I think the report may be here:

Results 1 - 10 of about 28 for Khanpash Terkibayev. (0.51 seconds)

Did you mean: Khandesh Takibayeva

Prague Watchdog - Crisis in Chechnya -
... Chechen journalist Khanpash Terkibayev arrested Ruslan Isayev, North Caucasus
Chechen journalist Khanpash Terkibayev was arrested ... index.php?show=000000-000008-000001-000121&lang=1 - 37k -
Cached - Similar pages

Bulletins of Center for Journalism in Extreme Situations
... 16-18 December. The Chechen journalist, Khanpash Terkibayev, was killed
in a car accident on the outskirts of Grozny. Between the ... - 35k - Cached - Similar pages

Human Rights in Chechnya - Press Releases
... The question was prompted by Anna Politkovskaya´s article in Novaya Gazeta in
she claimed Khanpash Terkibayev, one of the assailants in that incident ... - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

Latest press releases on human rights in Chechnya - News
from the ...
... 2003. Khanpash Terkibayev, an alleged participant of the Nord-Ost
hostage taking
crisis, died Protest near Russian consulate points to Chechen problems
Protest ... - 27k -
Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from ] Justice for Moscow Theatre Hostages
... Read the article. Khanpash Terkibayev, an alleged participant of the Nord-Ost
taking crisis, died in a car accident (The Checen Times), 12/16/2003. ... media.cgi?lang=en&page=6 - 19k -
Cached - Similar pages Justice for Moscow Theatre Hostages
... Anna Politkovskaya was able to meet with Khanpash Terkibayev, who,
according to
his own words, was one of the terrorists, and acted upon orders from some
... media.cgi?lang=en&page=12 - 20k -
Cached - Similar pages :: Moscow Hostage Incident :: 22
... The publication read that a certain Khanpash Terkibayev involved in the seizure
of the Dubrovka theatre is currently working as a reporter for one of the state ... photos/moscow_hostage_incident/mos32 - 34k -
Cached - Similar pages

... 16.12.2003. Khanpash Terkibayev, an alleged participant of the Nord-Ost
taking crisis, died in a car accident. Russian media ... - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

The Chechen Times ?25 :. The Chechen Times :. THE
... Flow. The most mysterious news: — the death of the journalist Khanpash
Terkibayev in a road accident in the suburbs of Grozny. ... - 17k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from ]

Pravda.RU Three acts of terrorism prevented in Chechnya
... In Mesker-Yurt local resident Khanpash Terkibayev was arrested on suspicion of
murdered the head of the local administration last October. ... - 64k - Cached - Similar pages

Did you mean to search for: Khandesh Takibayeva

66 posted on 10/25/2004 2:37:00 AM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: nw_arizona_granny; Askel5; Calpernia; MarMema; GarySpFc
Ms. Gubareva has asked me to translate her observations and rebuttals to the above comments. Hopefully I can do her points some justice, even if my own feelings do not coincide. Since WE ARE NOT DEMOCRATS HERE, we can agree to disagree without flames, abuse, or keying each other's bumper stickers ;-)

Ms. Gubareva's statement:

A chto kasaetsya bezdokazatel'nosti moikh slov... Pochti polgoda posle ehtogo koshmara ya kopalas' v gazetakh tekh dney, prosmatrivala videozapisi, razgovarivala s byvshimi zalozhnikami. No ya zhe ne mogu vse ehti materialy, na osnove kotorykh sdelala svoy vyvod, rassylat' po internetu! :-)

Na primer, ya videla takuyu videos"emky, zhurnalist NTV rasskazyval o shturme, za kotorym on sledil s balkona sosednego doma. Ryadom s nim byl "al'fovets". Obrashchayu tvoe vnimanie - ehto bylo DO tak nazyvaemogo razminirovaniya zdaniya. Zhurnalist obratil vnimanie na to, kak nebrezhno pinayut spetsnazovtsy poyasa shakhidok, sprosil u al'fovtsa - pochemu? Tot otvetil - skoree vsego tam mylyazhi. Poluchaetsya, chto spetsnazovtsy ZNALI, chto vrzyvchatki tam net, a tol'ko mulyazhi? Ved' vneshne ehti mulyazhi ne otlichalis' ot nastoyashchikh.

Na odnoy iz ehtikh zapisey ya videla, kak Vasil'ev (zam. nachal'ka shtaba) delal zayavlenie o tom, chto pogibshikh net. My razdobyli videozapisi shturma, peredelali ee Ane Politkovskoy. V "Novoy gazete" poyavilis' po ehtomu povodu stat'i, odna iz nikh nazyvalas' "Zachem ona v nego strelyala?"

Ya govoryu - zachem ubili vsekh terroristov ne iz lyubvi k nim, a po toy prostoy prichine, kotoraya pochemu-to ne dokhodit do opponentov, khotya ya ee nazyvayu - oni mogli dat' pokazaniya ob organizatorakh ehtogo terakta. No komu-to bylo vygodno, chtoby svideteley ne ostalos'. Tol'ko ne nado govorit' "mogli vzorvat' sonnye" - fignya! raz ne vzorvali, poka ne byli sonnymi, to ne mogli. I ne nado mne govorit', chto raz byl edinstvennym i neobkhodimym sredstvom - v postanovlenii prokuratury o nevozbuzhdenii dela protiv spetssluzhb est' slova o tom, chto terroristy otstrelivalis' (boyus' oshibit'sya) ne to 20, ne to 40 minut iz 8 pistoletov (a pistolety byli tol'ko u zhenshchin) iz 13 avtomatov. To est' effektivnost' primeneniya gaza byla menee 50%, i sootvetstvenno vozrastala, kak by osvobozhdala zalozhnikov. Ya ne znayu, ehto ne moya professiya - ya inzhener-ehkolog. No odno ya znayu tochno - na predlozhenie terroristov otpustit' inostrannykh zalozhnikov ya postaralas' kak mozhno skoree zabrat' lyudey v otlichie ot shtaba, kotoriy sdelal zayavlenie o tom, chto oni protiv ehtogo... I sdelal vse, chtoby ehtogo ne sluchilos' - ya razgovarivala so svoim poslom, ya ehto znayu.

"Regarding the lack of evidence for my words... I was digging through newspapers for almost a half-year after this nightmare. I watched video recordings and spoke with former hostages. I cannot, however, send through the internet all the materials upon which I base my conclusion! :-)

"For example, I saw one such video: a journalist from NTV was discussing the assault which he followed from the balcony of the building next door. Next to him was an "alpha". Pay attention - this was BEFORE the so-called de-mining of the building. The journalist noticed how carelessly the special forces soldiers were cutting off the shakhidki's (female suicide bombers) belts, so he asked an alpha group member - why? The soldier replied that these were merely fakes. It turns out that the special forces KNEW that there were no explosives, but only fakes? The outward appearance of these fakes were obviously identical to real ones.

"On one of the recordings I saw Vasilev (representative of the chief of staff) declare that there were no deaths. We took the recordings of the assault, sent them to Anna Politkovskaya. "Novaya Gazeta" wrote articles about this, one of which is called "Why did she shoot him?"(English translation: here)

"I will say why they killed all of the terrorists, not out of love from them, but for a simple reason which hasn't occurred to my opponents: the terrorists could have given testimony about the organizors of the terror act. It was to someone's advantage to make sure that there were no witnesses. Don't go saying that "they could have blown up while sleeping" - balderdash! If they didn't blow up while they were awake, then they couldn't. And don't tell me that it was necessary, that it was the only way - there is the testimony at the attorney general's office regarding a criminal case brought against the special forces, in which it was stated that the terrorists fired for 20-40 minutes from 8 pistols (only the women had pistols) and 13 assault rifles. The effectiveness of the gas was less than 50%, and was dissipating as they freed the hostages. I don't know the details about the gas, it's not my profession - I am an ecologic engineer. But one thing I know for sure: the terrorists' offer to release the foreign hostages, I found out from people who associated with the headquarters, that the headquarter had declared that they were against this. I also spoke with my embassy, so I know this."

Ms Gubareva also sent the following links to Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, which I haven't had time to nit-pick. Anyone up for it?

Have at it, and none of this Daffy Duck "You're Despicable" nonsense. That's not a debating technique.

67 posted on 10/25/2004 5:24:45 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: struwwelpeter
Where shall we seek criteria of truth? All too often men seek these criteria in what is lower than truth, in the objective world with its compulsions, seek criteria for spirit in the material world. And they fall into a vicious circle. Discursive truth can provide no criteria for final truth: it is only at the halfway mark, and knows neither the beginning nor the end. Every proof rests upon the unproven, the postulate, the created. There is risk, and no guarantee. The very search for guarantee is wrong and really means subjecting the higher to the lower. Freedom of the spirit knows no guarantees. The sole criterion of truth is truth itself, the light which streams out of it.

Truth has nothing to do with the objective world, but rather is related to spirit. Truth is something present and immediate.

68 posted on 10/25/2004 5:48:35 PM PDT by MarMema (Sharon is my hero)
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To: struwwelpeter; svni
I posted several of my searches from the other night and a small part of the articles found, not the ones with the
strongest opinions.

If one wishes to use the searches that I did, the search words are in each post, I use a simple general search at
Google, not a confining advanced search.

For months, in searches that have nothing to do with Russia, I have found reports that caused me to have doubts on the truths of the accepted reports of the Chechnya situation.

I did not know of Svni, until she posted here, so had no early opinions and was somewhat open, until I started the research that took all night, to answer a question that
Calpernia asked.

I find that the reports on the theater, from the newspapers are not easy to find and was surprised that it took so long to find the ones that I did.

It is true, there is no way to know the total truth, but one does have to try.

Svni, I thank you for sharing your story with me, it is important to me to know as much as I can about any thing that I take an interest in.

Peter, I thank you for giving me a chance to learn more than I knew a week ago.

My number one goal for my searches, deals with the muslim terrorists and I am very alarmed, that so many of my searches turn up a Russian connection, it is there, from all angles. Right down to the protest marches against America in the streets of the United States, every day.

There is something wrong with the picture, I am told that Russia is my friend and they sell arms to my countries enemies.

Therefore, I must keep seeking the truth.
69 posted on 10/25/2004 7:00:49 PM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: struwwelpeter

>>>>"I will say why they killed all of the terrorists, not out of love from them, but for a simple reason which hasn't occurred to my opponents: the terrorists could have given testimony about the organizors of the terror act.

What about intentional disinformation while an investigation is occuring? That is normal to misreport for propaganda to confuse the enemy.

70 posted on 10/25/2004 7:12:27 PM PDT by Calpernia (
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To: nw_arizona_granny
I'll try to pass on your words.

Personally, I don't think it's that cut and dried. "Russia" is a country, she doesn't do anything. People do. Leaders come and go, and often the most well-meaning leader has underlings who do not carry out their mission as the leader wanted.

I don't think V.V.Putin is the anti-Christ, or a killer as some suggest. He's a product of his environment, which would be a challenge for the strongest from any nation to survive in, let alone thrive.

The middle-ranked byurokratiya has been Russia's scourge since the days of Peter the Great. Certain parlimentarians order renumeraton of Beslan victims, and nasty mid-level bureaucrats make the grieving victims jump through hoops. Is this the fault of the top man in the Kremlin? Partially, since he has not reformed the system. But who can? Putin's systematic reforms are always judged in the worst possible light, by those who look for commies under the bed every night. Thank God we aren't running things ;-)

Nord-ost was a tragedy, but the blame is squarely with the terrorists. However: what nation would not demand an inquiry into the matter? If a sheriff solved a hostage situation at the local bank and ended up with 20% casualties, he'd certainly be answering questions.

Nord-ost indirectly led to Beslan, because no one learned from their mistakes. Lots of guns and tanks, no psychology.

71 posted on 10/25/2004 7:15:36 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: nw_arizona_granny; Calpernia

Could you take a look at these video captures, and tell me what you see? I stare and stare and I can't tell what is going on. I thought I saw a dangling chad on one ;-)

72 posted on 10/25/2004 7:25:31 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: struwwelpeter

I looked at the stills. I couldn't see enough to know what was actually happening.

Peter, all, I really could care less if a prisoner was shot. I lend no thought to it. It doesn't make me suspicious of Putin, nor of the situation that happened in the theatre.

Here in the US, we give the prisoners flu shots instead of the sick and old. We should shoot more prisoners.

73 posted on 10/25/2004 7:41:23 PM PDT by Calpernia (
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To: Calpernia

Yowzas! That's so un-PC of you. ;-) I'm afraid I'm going to have to cancel your assignment as guidance counselor at Abu Graib.

74 posted on 10/25/2004 8:00:09 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: struwwelpeter

>>>I'm afraid I'm going to have to cancel your assignment as guidance counselor at Abu Graib.

::goes to time out chair in the corner::

75 posted on 10/25/2004 8:10:36 PM PDT by Calpernia (
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To: struwwelpeter

=== I will say why they killed all of the terrorists, not out of love from them, but for a simple reason which hasn't occurred to my opponents: the terrorists could have given testimony about the organizors of the terror act.

Ding ding ding ... we have a winner!

A study of the McVeigh and Davidian trials -- if not also the spiriting out of the country of those individuals who knew Bin Laden the best (save for his one-time CIA handlers and such) -- suggests that this sort of thing is not encouraged here either.

Though we have yet to prove ourselves quite as efficient as the Former Soviets and almost seem to relish the circus-circuses -- such as Little Elian or Chandra Levy -- used to distract and debride the brains of Americans in between Key Events precipitating the usual "constitutional" Crises.

76 posted on 10/25/2004 9:57:24 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: struwwelpeter; jb6

I am very familiar with what happened at Nord-ost. I was on top of this event when it happened, and devoured every fact as it was revealed. I am also very familiar with what happened to Sandy Booker, Svetlana and her daughter. I have compassion for her and what she went through. I might add my wife was in Volgograd at the time, and she suffered horribly and blamed the Russian government at the time.

That said, I will only cover a couple of details, but I found several points in the letters and articles which quite frankly are not simply wrong, but dead wrong.

I have previously stated my military qualifications on here, and it is boring to go into them again, but they need repeating. I was on a Special Forces A-Team for 6 years, and served as the teams demolitions expert.

Firstly, there were two 155 mm artillery shells rigged in the theatre, one in the balcony and the second suspended from the ceiling. These two shells were electronically to each other. Three of the terrorists had switches which would have set off the rounds. One of these would have been more than enough to bring down the building and killed everyone therein.
Secondly, I find it highly problematic that the charges on the Chechyen widows were fakes. That simply defies logic. Furthermore, the alpha SF had no way of knowing these charges were fakes prior to carefully examining them. The Russian SF simply could not take the chance they were fakes, because setting off one of these charges would have exploded the two 155 mm shells. Shooting the terrorists as they slept was the only option. Any soldier who did not follow out orders on this point would jeopardize everyone in the building. END OF DISCUSSION.
Thirdly, all military operations have problems, and this one was no exception. It is impossible to foresee every eventually, but professional soldiers try. Most of those who died did so in the theatre prior to when they were evacuated. The planning and logistics of entering the theatre, finding and killing the terrorists as they slept, and then removing sleeping victims through narrow aisles was a major operation.
Fourthly, I do not say the following lightly. I do not respect Anna Politkovskaya, and I consider her an opportunist, a liar, and likely a propaganda machine for the terrorists. Furthermore, I honestly do not believe she was poisoned.
I could go on and on. That said, I appreciate Svetlana's pain. My wife grieved horribly, believed the Russian government failed, and only after her nephew and I both confirmed the same things did she finally believe what we had to say.

77 posted on 10/25/2004 10:46:55 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: GarySpFc

Please excuse the errors in my post. It was very late, and I did not notice them at the time.

78 posted on 10/25/2004 10:50:27 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: GarySpFc
Thanks for the info. I was afraid that I had a learning disorder - people keep throwing data at me, and I it never seems to add up.

It's getting clearer.

79 posted on 10/25/2004 11:17:28 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: struwwelpeter

I can't see the pictures. sorry, but all there is for me
is some light and mostly dark.

80 posted on 10/25/2004 11:57:16 PM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: nw_arizona_granny
From Moscow News

No.40 for 2004 (22.10.2004) MN-Events Events of the week

Not Stockholm Syndrome

Anna Rudnitskaya

Not Stockholm syndomes

Two years ago several hundred people - the 'Nord-Ost' hostages - were subjected to an unknown gas. Some of them died, the rest were hospitalized. The composition of the secret substance was declared a state secret (for greater detail, see the dossier). All that is officially known is that the gas was harmless: President Putin stated this personally for an American television network.

But there are other opinions on this.

To remember everything

Witness Aleksey Minyaev was very disappointing for the investigator.

"Tell me everything that you saw and remember," asked the man from the attorney general's office, who was questioning the liberated 'Nord-Ost' hostages.

"I worked there as a coat checker," answered Aleksey. He does not remember anything more about the hostage taking, or the storming of the building. His loved ones discovered him in intensive care at Hospital no. 13 on the third day following the assault. "Where am I?" he asked his mother. She explained. He asked about friends. She started to tell him that some had died, some were in the hospital, some were already home. He interrupted her, and asked again: "But why am I in the hospital?"

The physicians at first explained the memory loss as part of the body's defense mechanisms, but Aleksey had not just forgotten about that which happened in the Dubrovka theater building, he was forgetting what was still happening to him. A month and a half later, when he was discharged from Hospital no. 13, his medical records contained a clinical diagnosis of his being 'a victim of crime and terrorism'. Farther in the report, his loss of memory was said to be due to a 'post-hypoxic state induced by the use of a substance with narcotic actions'.

"Retrograde amnesia," these are the words of Antonina Ivanovna, Aleksey's mother, who pronounces them without hesitation. "I remember, because once I saw a program, something like the television show 'Obviously Improbable', and they talked about this disease." The improbable has quickly become the obvious: Antonina Ivanovna had to remind her son, where and at what time, he would meet his friends, where he had laid his textbook. After Hospital no. 13, Aleksey spent another six months in the Center for Speech Pathology, and only later could he return to his studies - he is studying ecology at the Moscow Social University.

In the regional polyclinic, as at the university, Aleksey's story is known to all: the words 'Nord-Ost' are written right on the top of his medical charts in capital letters. There are only three such charts in the polyclinic. Besides himself, Aleksey knows Tamara Yusupova. She used to work at 'Nord-Ost', but now she is retired, feels poorly and has been categorized a group III invalid. Aleksey and his mother are also getting ready to do this: the therapist told them that the handicap is a given, but the head of the VTEhO did not receive them very cordially. "We should really continue treatment," she said. "How are you fixed with money?"

"We got the impression that if there was money, then he must be treated, but if not, then it wasn't necessary," Antonina puzzled. "She yelled at me, she said that he is functional, 'leave the office, I'll talk to him'."

"I just can't stand to see anymore doctors..." Aleksey adds.

According to information from Hospital no. 13's consultation office, which was opened for the victims of 'Nord-Ost', there are about 30 patients such as Aleksey. 'Hypoxic encephalopathy with complications' - is the streamlined version of their conditions in the language of medical documents.

"What did the doctors say? Is the gas to blame?"

"They say, perhaps," Aleksey answers.

"But what else could it be from?" his mother asks. "He lived for twenty years before this, only ever had colds. You don't lose your memory from a cold."

To forget everything

Oksana is 17. She sits by the window, looking straight ahead, quietly answering questions. Two years ago, she was still in school and was at 'Nord-Ost' with a friend. The unstated questions hangs in the air. Oksana nods her head slowly:

"He died."

She does not cry. She just stops for awhile, then continues. She speaks about how, when she came to in Municipal Hospital no. 1 a few hours after the assualt, she surprised the physicians, who had thought her to be beyond hope: "They brought me in, in very grave condition, I didn't react to anything. They carried me in like a dead body." She talks about how she was released after a week, and felt normal until last year, when her nerves began to give out. Last Spring, when she caught the flu, the cough would not pass, and it was thought that she had pneumonia, but it turned out to be bronchial asthma. Now, every spring, she has to spend a few weeks in the hospital.

Whether the gas is to blame or not, Oksana Matashenkova does not know for certain. The doctor at the polyclinic said that it is a possibility: none of her relatives has suffered from asthma, and it is not one of the possible complications of influenza. Another physician told her to not say anything to anyone in the hospital about 'Nord-Ost': they would discontinue her treatment.

She does not communicate with her former comrades in misfortune: "It only gets worse when I remember all that..." She does not go to theaters and cinemas, either. Once she decided to go to the premier of "Pushkinskiy", but when she saw the red theater seats, she dashed out in horror. Of all her former entertainments, her only remaining muscial is 'Notre Dame'.

"I went to see it four times. Not because I like it so much... It's just that sometimes I like to feel as if I'm there. Then I go to the musical."

She is afraid to ride on the subway, is afraid of dark streets, and scared to watch the television: "After Beslan it got worse. I understand that it's best not to watch the news, but I just can't, I watch anyway. It always seems to me, though, that they're going to blow me up now, that they're after me, that someone wants to kill me." No psychologists have examined her. She never sought them out: Oksana is studying psychology and knows all too well what they might say.

"Do you know what irritates me? When they talk about Stockholm syndrome. I don't have Stockholm syndrome, I don't justify those terrorists. But I can understand them. Some girls were sitting with us, 16-17 years old, they talked about how hard it was to live in Chechnya. I have more malice towards our government, than towards the Chechnyans. My friend suffocated. They didn't even take him to the hospital. Why did it happen like this?"

Oksana wipes shining eyes. She is not looking at me, but what could I say anyway?

Everyone healthy?

Many of the former hostages would not meet with the reporter: they wish to forget, they do not want to discuss the state of their health. Among those with whom I succeeded in speaking is Elena Vinogradova. After 'Nord-Ost' she discovered an enlargement of her thyroid. Now she needs an operation which costs 17 thousand rubels. There is the former usher from 'Nord-Ost', Lyubov Sviridova, who has been declared a group III invalid. She has problems with her blood vessels, and constant headaches. Her medicines cost 15 thousand rubels a month, but she is retired and cannot work. There is a woman who asked that I not use her name, who was in an early stage of pregnancy during the terror act. Her child was born with grave pathologies. No one will undertake to say what the cause is for sure - there are dozens of potential risk factors to account for it, but all of this woman's friends who told me of her misfortune were certain: it is 'Nord-Ost'. But how can one not come to this conclusion, when all that concerns the health of the former hostages and the after-effects of the gas are surrounded by such secrecy?

The press director for the Moscow public health committee, Lyubov Zhomova, answered our questions bruskly: "All of the former hostages are assigned to regional polyclinics near their places of residency. None are seriously ill. We do not specifically deal with them, but they are tracked as to why they came in." Nothing was known there about Tamara Yusupova and Lyubov Sviridova as well (since there are surely more such people). "There are no invalids among the former hostages," the press service cheerfully answered.
A few children were at 'Nord-Ost', and a diagnostic office was opened for them at the Filial hospital. "Our business is to cure, not to investigate," head physicial Vladimir Popov stated to the 'MN' news correspondent. "In order to state that specific diseases are caused by use of the gas, we would need to compare all these children with a different group. It is very interesting, but someone else should occupy themselves with it." For two years, no one else has been interested.

At the request of the 'MN' correspondent, Hospital no. 13's consultation office made a census: 82 former hostages were diagnosed with hepatopathy (a disruption in liver function), 41 with myocardiopathy (heart), 16 with nephropathy (kidneys). Several men complained of hearing loss; they were sent to the Center for speech pathology. Chief physician of the hospital, Leonid Aronov, when asked whether these diagnoses could be connected with the after-effects of the gas's application, answered with an already well-known phrase: "No direct connection. The gas contained no toxic substances."
In surviving 'Nord-Ost', the former hostages are now held prisoner by low-grade, unfriendly medicine, with lines at the regional polyclinics, shouting managers, and prescriptions for free medicines which are not supplied by any pharmacies. You cannot, of course, envy them. No one envies them, except perhaps for the relatives of the 129 who did not survive the effects of the 'harmless' gas."

The living and the dead are brought together by one thing - the diagnosis. Death certificates given to relatives of hostage family members read the same as the medical charts of the survivors: 'Victim of Terrorism'. Here medicine, of course, is powerless.

MN Dossier

What they said about the 'harmless' gas

Public health minister Yuriy Shevchenko four days after the assault declared that the gas that was applied was a derivative of Fentanyl, which is used as an analgestic in anesthesia. (Overdose can cause death in some patients, as a result of cessation of breathing and blood circulation). Later, in reply to an offical request by the public health committe of the Russian parliament to disclose the compositon of the gas, Shevchenko stated that "this information relates to a government secret."

The deputy chief of staff of the Russian catastrophic medical service, Boris Grebenyuk presented his version. Defending the physicians who were accused of delaying medical assistance by acting chief of the interior ministry, Vladimir Vasilyev, Grebenyuk declared: "In the course of the operation at 'Nord-Ost' the special services applied Tri-methyl-Fentanyl, a most toxic gas. There is simply no antidote. The physicians acted on the situation."

Foreign experts guess that, during the assault on 'Nord-Ost', strong-acting toxic substances may have been used. Two years ago, chemist Vil Mirzayanov in an interview with 'MN' offered that it could be the gas BZ, which was tested in the Burdenko hospital. "Those who survive will have health problems. The substance has a delayed action," the scientist warned.


27 October 2002

"Two hostages died from gunfire, another 116 from the after-effects of the usage of special substances."

28 October 2002

"People did not die strictly from applicaton fo the gas. It was from the application of the gas under such non-standard conditions."

30 October 2002

"We are not seeing the influence of the special substances on the patients, these are the consequences of the terrorists' cruelty."

(From the public speechs of chairman of the Moscow city public health committee, Andrey Seltsovskiy)

81 posted on 10/26/2004 2:47:36 AM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: struwwelpeter; Calpernia
Thank you Peter,

That is a sad report, it leaves me speechless.

I think there can be no doubt in anyones mind that there is
still much to be learned about this disaster.

It is not difficult for me to understand that some of the
people would have a bad reaction, as medicine works the opposite on me, as it does to others.

I would think that having to deal with the mental aspect of
having been attacked, in addition to the fact that your government has not acted in the best way, would be almost more than one could deal with.

The Beslen school and this Theater, will join our JFK, the truth will never be known and the stories will grow over the years.

It does leave one wanting the truth and wanting to see justice for what has happened.

I find the terrorists and the communists working together, protesting together and after the same goal, the take over of the U.S. and the world.

No, I don't look under my bed for communists, indeed I look at the leaders, who want to be number one.

The Russian type attacks will happen here, and the results will be the same, with the same questions asked.

When the attacks come to us, you will never be sure of who is behind them.

Look at the photos of the protesters at the recent conventions, and for all the G-8 meetings, it is the same ones, paid for by someone, as they go all over the world.

I have been watching them for years, always find a young lady with long red hair, lovely and her soul must be dead.

They will carry the communist banners, along side with the
muslims and their banners/signs.

Keep digging, the information is out there, and it does not have to be made up, it has always been there, if people would only read and see the truths.
82 posted on 10/26/2004 8:43:26 AM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: struwwelpeter
Many who have had major surgery will tell you there are frequently problems related to memory loss. It's unfortunate there was not another way to help the hostages, but in my opinion the terrorists at Nord-Ost came to die, and especially the Chechen widows.
The war on terror is going to be a long drawn out affair, and will not simply go away as some might wish. It's very unfortunate our civilian populations are being targeted. The only answers I see are to either submit to the wishes of the tyrants or fight. Which is worse?
83 posted on 10/26/2004 9:35:48 AM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: GarySpFc

'Furthermore, I honestly do not believe she was poisoned.'

A day replaces a night. It is the fact. It does not depend from yours I "believe" or I "do not believe". Anna has been poisoned. This fact does not depend from yours I "do not believe" too

84 posted on 10/26/2004 1:33:36 PM PDT by svni
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To: svni
Otkuda ty? Where did you come from!!??
85 posted on 10/26/2004 1:57:43 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: svni
Ty pravil'no pisala, no "zavisit ot" po angliyskiy dolzhno byt' "depends on". Normal'no?
86 posted on 10/26/2004 2:02:18 PM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: svni
A day replaces a night. It is the fact. It does not depend from yours I "believe" or I "do not believe". Anna has been poisoned. This fact does not depend from yours I "do not believe" too

I noticed you recently joined on 10/21/2004. You are correct in one sense, and that my "I do not believe" does not establish proof she was poisoned. That said, the burden of proof is on her to prove she was poisoned, and not simply provide a newspaper article as evidence. You are a long, long ways from establishing your "so called" fact.
87 posted on 10/26/2004 2:53:19 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: svni

Correction, my statement should have read, " You are correct in one sense, and that my "I do not believe" does not establish proof she was not poisoned."

88 posted on 10/26/2004 2:57:29 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: struwwelpeter

Bring that gal by here! I'll fix her a custom cup of coffee.

89 posted on 10/26/2004 3:23:13 PM PDT by Chapita (There are none so blind as those who refuse to see! Santana)
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To: GarySpFc; svni
Look, this is who pays her way.

And he also pays for the journalism which smashes Putin, and the committees against the war, which are pro-chechen.

All of these people are guilty of treason. They have turned on their own country in a time of war.

I have no compassion for terrorist supporters. There are actually fine and decent Russian women who have suffered hardships, including the loss of a child, such as this one.

Instead of becoming whiners and trying to sue their own country, women such as Mrs. Rodionov have chosen the road of nobility and honor, and have found ways to help. Mrs. Rodionov, in case you were unaware, had a son captured by chechen scum who was beheaded for wearing a cross. She nows works to help and support border guards.

Many Years, Mrs. Rodionov! You honor your country and God.
Memory Eternal! Memory Eternal! Holy Martyr Evgeny, pray God for mercy upon us all.

And thank you President Putin for all you do to keep the same islamic scum down in your neck of the woods that wants to kill all of the rest of us. God be with you!!

90 posted on 10/26/2004 4:00:47 PM PDT by MarMema (Sharon is my hero)
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To: nw_arizona_granny
Christ told us that in this world there would be tribulation.

It is what you do with it that tells what you are made of.

"What wisdom can we know to endure our grief?"
Some seeds fall on hard ground.

91 posted on 10/26/2004 4:09:30 PM PDT by MarMema (Sharon is my hero)
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To: GarySpFc
Berezovsky, in fact, is a lot like Michael Moore. The country which made him wealthy beyond dreams is the one he attacks, in both cases.

Both liberals with no morality. Both haters of their own country of origin.

92 posted on 10/26/2004 4:14:14 PM PDT by MarMema (Sharon is my hero)
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To: svni

Thank you for posting.

93 posted on 10/26/2004 4:24:52 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: svni

I can't compare the events in the US with those in Moscow for the simple reason: there it was "bang" and all over, while with us two years ago it was 57 hours of waiting and possibilities to avert tragedy.

Even through I feel sorry for her, I ca'nt let this go without a reply! "BANG AND ALL OVER??!!" WHAT??!! I guess she does'nt think about all the people trapped on the floors who could'nt get down because of the fire and calling their family frantically on the cell phone just to say goodby, or maybe jumping out the window to escape the fire! I guess she does'nt think about the people who tried to ran down the stairs and got trapped and burned alive and the firemen who tried to rescue them and were killed themself. I guess she does'nt think about the relatives who called hospitals for days and weeks and put up photos that said, have you seen this person? Hoping and praying they had survived? It was defanitely NOT "BANG AND ALL OVER!

94 posted on 11/11/2004 4:52:16 PM PST by MotorcycleNana
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To: svni; Jan Malina

Introduction ....

The two of you have many stories to share.

95 posted on 05/23/2005 3:58:19 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: struwwelpeter

But in fact, the NW European ethnic, good old American convert from a liberal Protestant or no religion, typically is more "pan Slavic" and mindlessly esconced with the notion of "Putin as neo-Tsar" than any of my fellow ethnic Slavs! Ironic, ain't it?

96 posted on 05/23/2005 4:03:20 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: svni

SVR and FSB tactics right here, clearly. When in doubt, label your opponent as "mentally disturbed and in need of treatment." We know just what is "treatment" ;) ....

97 posted on 05/23/2005 4:06:25 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: nw_arizona_granny

No one is guilty in the deaths of the hostages

The 'Nordost' case (Kommersant, May 6th, 2005

Yesterday the Zamoskvorech'ye court in Moscow acknowledged that members of the special forces and doctors do not bear any responsibility for the loss of 129 persons during the 2002 hostage rescue action at the Dubrovka theatrical center (where the play 'Nordost' was showing). Svetlana Gubareva - whose 13-year-old daughter Alexandra and US fiancé Sandy Booker died during the special operation - received this answer in junction with the refusal of her complaint before the court.

Recall that the claimant requested the court overturn the decisions of the Moscow attorney general's office to not seek prosecution of physicians and soldiers. Like many victims, she assumes that her loved ones did not die at the hands of the terrorists, but as a result of the rescue operation. The refusal to bring charges against medical workers was signed by the Moscow attorney general's office on December 31st, 2002. The case against members of the special forces ended on October 16th, 2003, when investigation showed that the special forces 'acted in accordance with extreme necessity'. Svetlana Gubareva further requested that the court to recognize as illegal the actions of Vladimir Kalchuk, head of the city attorney's investigation into the terror act at Dubrovka. According to her, Kalchuk has undertaken any actions on a petition sent to him in September of 2003, requesting that he explain the circumstances of the loss of her loved ones.

The court, it seems, did everything possible for a detailed examination of the complaint. It introduced documents about the loss of the plaintiff’s loved ones, and - after granting the defense's request - questioned Inspector Vladimir Kalchuk (see the issue from April 18th). The inspector, it is true, stated that the refusals to prosecute were "justifiably" made, that he did not remember any letter from Svetlana Gubareva, but in general he refused to answer many questions. Elena Levshina, representing the city attorney's office, stated in the course of the hearings that there was no fault found on the part of medics and special forces members, but that the investigation was conducted thoroughly and competently. Mr. Kalchuk later sent the court a letter stating that he never received Ms. Gubareva's petition. Attorneys then produced for the court the original of the petition, bearing the receipt stamp of the city attorney's office, and asked for a separate decision with regards to the city attorney general's department. Judge Irina Vasina stated that she would examine the question when she arrived at a verdict in the lawsuit.

Yesterday, however, even the judge forgot about the defense's request. The court decided that the inspector's actions violated no laws, and that all investigations were executed in accordance with the law. Even if there were "incompleteness" in the investigation, it would be completed during further investigation - which has been prolonged until July 19th. As a result, the court refused all points of Ms. Gubareva's complaint.

"This is an unjustifiable decision," stated the plaintiff's attorney, Karina Moskalenko. "We established that Svetlana Gubareva's petition had been received by the attorney's office, it was a registered letter. For some reason the court not only would not consider this, but in general it would not return to our request to find the attorney's office in contempt. Furthermore, it's strange for a court of law to think that an investigation can 'subsequently ' fill in some gaps. The decisions curtailing the cases against the special forces and the medics, which we disputed, have already been made, that means that the investigation cannot return to these questions until the decisions have been abolished. This is some kind of a game, word juggling." In the opinion of the defense, many questions remained unanswered. Ms. Moskalenko explained that there had actually been no request for the court to examine a criminal case - the judge had stated that this was impossible. It did, however, need to examine Svetlana Gubareva's complaint. This, in the opinion of the attorneys, was not done. "I consider today's decision to be illegal, the court ignored all of our points, and we will appeal this decision in Moscow city court," Karina Moskalenko.

Marina Lepina

98 posted on 01/03/2006 9:44:39 PM PST by struwwelpeter
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To: struwwelpeter; svni

Hello friends,

Thank you for posting this, it brings me to a point of rage, I can imagine how you both feel.

Of course, I am not surprised, Russia was not about to allow this trial to be tried, too many secrets would have come out during the giving of the true facts.

I feel the same rage at our Government/clinton for what happened at Waco, Texas in 1993.

Some how the truth will come out.

Svni, I wish that I could give you strength to deal with this, but I don't know the words to say. A hug would help,
if you were here and I could give it.

I will continue to try and find the truths that are hidden
in this world of ours.

Peter, Thank You.

99 posted on 01/03/2006 11:09:29 PM PST by nw_arizona_granny (Socialist=communist,elected to office,paid with your taxes:
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To: Cold Heat; svni
Cold Heat wrote:
"Well, that is a convenient rumor, but it is not likely.

Common sense tell me that this is what we call here a tinfoil claim that occurs as a result of political fights all over the Democratic world.

Russia is also known fondly as one the the most conspiracy laden societies on the planet with the U.S. a close second place.

The Russian government does not have free press or other free media. Censorship is occurring there, as it did during the Soviet years and during the reigns of the Czars before. Quite a few dissenting journalists have been murdered, and dissenting television companies have been shut down. A government capable of such behavior is also capable of staging other cruelties for propaganda purposes.
100 posted on 10/07/2006 6:27:12 PM PDT by familyop (Essayons)
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