Does evolution contradict creationism?

Talk Origins ^ | 1998 | Warren Kurt VonRoeschlaub

[shubi]

There are two parts to creationism. Evolution, specifically common descent, tells us how life came to where it is, but it does not say why. If the question is whether evolution disproves the basic underlying theme of Genesis, that God created the world and the life in it, the answer is no. Evolution cannot say exactly why common descent chose the paths that it did.

If the question is whether evolution contradicts a literal interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis as an exact historical account, then it does. This is the main, and for the most part only, point of conflict between those who believe in evolution and creationists.

[shubi]

What are you smoking?

[shubi]

A course in truth will tell you that the Theory of Evolution is all science. The TOE is one of the most magnificent Theories ever discovered. It explains how life changes as the Earth changes over millions of years.

It is science, because there are mountains of scientific data collected over 150 years that all fits into the Theory.

A hypothesis is a testable idea. Scientists do not set out to “prove” hypotheses, but to test them. Often multiple hypotheses are posed to explain phenomena and the goal of research is to eliminate the incorrect ones. Hypotheses come and go by the thousands, but theories often remain to be tested and modified for decades or centuries. In science, theories are never hunches or guesses and to describe evolution as “just a theory” is inappropriate.

“Do you believe in evolution?” is a question often asked of biology teachers by their puzzled students. The answer is, “No, I accept the fact that the Earth is very old and life has changed over billions of years because that is what the evidence tells us.” Science is not about belief—it is about making inferences based on evidence

[Jehu]

Evolutionary Theory is hostile to the very core of Christian belief. You cannot impute original sin to the human race if we all descended from tribes of apes. No original parents, no sin in those parents (thus transmitted to all offspring). No orginal sin committed by the first parents? Then sin cannot be removed by the new head of the human race...Christ. Article of faith, but never the less you cannot smuggle the ideas of Evolution into true Christian faith. Your faith becomes worthless. Either we are damned under inescapable sin and in need of a Divine deliverer, or we can work it out ourselves. So far I see no evidence that humanity can work out how to bring peace to the Middle East, let alone deliver itself from greed, lust, hatred, wars, violence, perversion...no matter how smart we think we have become. Smarter we get, the more lethal our weapons.

[the invisib1e hand]

Those that do not believe in evolution, do not believe in God.

Don't know if I can agree with that.

That the laws of Nature and Nature's God employ the agency of natural selection, I believe there is ample evidence for. The process of getting a callous on one's hand, the process of acquiring a new skill, can be described as "evolutionary" in a sense, though "adaptability" would be a more accurate term for the same process.

Anyway, it happens all the time in all time frames and has no bearing whatsoever on the event of Creation, any more than a car has a bearing on its designer.

[Uri’el-2012]

You do not understand what science is.

You are confused by the religion of the evil one.

What science is :

Someone builds a hypothetical construct.

Collects some data ; proposes a theory.

Runs an empirical experiment for the length of time of the construct.( 15 billion years )

Runs the experiment a second time for the length of time of the construct. ( 15 billion years )

Documents the experiment.

Another investigator constructs the identical experiment.

Runs the experiment a third time for the length of time of the construct. ( 15 billion years )

Publishes and you now have a theory.

Are any of your scientists 50 billion years old ?

I think not !

They are practicing religion not science.

Read GERALD SCHROEDER !

Trust G-d, not man.

His willing bondslave

chuck

[Voice in your head]

"Yet I am stumped in trying to guess how you interpret the phrase in Exodus 20 '...and all that is in them...' to somehow exclude life. What else could it possibly be?"

Matter. That is, matter, as opposed to organized matter. Given that interpretation, the author of the thread is consistent. And, I think that is how he interprets it.

"The reason I chose the Exodus passage is that I know many people have rationalized away Genesis, as you are trying to rationalize away this one too."

I don't have an agenda to tear down Exodus - I was just pointing out that there is an another interpretation. I don't claim to be right.

"Have evolutionists explained abiogenesis or the transformation of inorganic material into organic material?"

In terms of developing a law or principle that says elements A and B mix together via X process to produce Y life form - no. Hypotheses, based upon current assumptions of what the Earth's early environment was like, have been formulated to try to explain how synthesis of organic molecules and formation of ordered systems demonstrating homeostatic properties could have occured. The merit of these hypotheses has been reinforced by recreation in laboratories. Their weakness lies in whether we have accurately assumed what the Earth's early environment was like and determining if said reactions occured. No matter how plausible, possible, convenient, et cetera, if the reactions didn't occur, then it does nothing to shed light on how life began.

[shubi]

Your point is that apes don't sin? This is why creationism is so much fun. Good thing I wasn't drinking coffee when I read this one.

[shubi]

s; Those that do not believe in evolution, do not believe in God.
t; Don't know if I can agree with that.

t; That the laws of Nature and Nature's God employ the agency of natural selection, I believe there is ample evidence for. The process of getting a callous on one's hand, the process of acquiring a new skill, can be described as "evolutionary" in a sense, though "adaptability" would be a more accurate term for the same process.

S: Heeheeeheee Thank Mr. Lamarck.

t:Anyway, it happens all the time in all time frames and has no bearing whatsoever on the event of Creation, any more than a car has a bearing on its designer.

S: While I can tell you have no clue what an allele is, you are entirely correct that the Darwin's Theory does not include creation. Biology doesn't care who created first life, it just works with the life that we see in the fossil record and here now.

[shubi]

You do not understand what science is.
You are confused by the religion of the evil one.

x; What science is :

Someone builds a hypothetical construct.

Collects some data ; proposes a theory.

Runs an empirical experiment for the length of time of the construct.( 15 billion years )

s Hahahahaaaaarrrrrgggggaaaaakkkkkkrrrrccchhhh

God sorted the dinosaurs in the strata in chronological order as a practical joke. Thanks for your input. Now I have get a new keyboard.

[the invisib1e hand]

i think you've dialed the wrong number, swami.

[Uri’el-2012]

I pray one day you accept Y'shua as L-rd and and Savior.


a bondslave to the Christ
chuck

[shubi]

Hey dummy, I am a Christian Minister.

Just because someone has a brain and doesn't believe nonsensical interpretations of the KJV Bible doesn't mean they aren't Christian.

I think you have crossed the line in judging lest ye be judged.

[kipita]

I've been addicted to smoking the factual reality pipe for some 22 years. If the universe is driven by one force and the Earth is driven by another force (opposite force), then that would make the Earth the most important point in the universe. Furthermore, SETI has been searching for evolved beings for years, but have found nothing. Being a lifelong Louisiana Catholic (a double negative?) I'm not very religious but I'm a conservative scientist and IT Engineer who evaluates life based on facts, logic, and a belief in a higher Deity.

[Reuben Hick]

Matter. That is, matter, as opposed to organized matter. Given that interpretation, the author of the thread is consistent. And, I think that is how he interprets it.

This is the problem with discussing things through intermediaries... oh well, tag team wrestling lives. How do I state this without sounding real insulting? Without getting into a discussion about Messrs J,E,D and P, it is standard orthodoxy to accept that one man was responsible for providing us with the Pentateuch which includes both Exodus and Genesis. Since the author of Genesis is the same as Exdous, and the author of Genesis plainly stated that living plants preceded sunlight and critters were on dry land on the sixth day, it would be just a simple matter of applying Occam's Razor to the matter and assume that Moses was not as conflicted as those who seriously attempt to deconstruct his words.

Normally I would be puzzled with why intelligent people who treat scientists as infallible priests and praise the scientific process and logical reasoning as two members of the secular trinity would be so obtuse when given something so simple as this, but the answer was given in the same Scriptures that confound those who simply will accept anything but Truth, and will reject Truth everytime they hear it. (Re: 1 Cor 2:14, and 2 Peter 3:5) So I don't struggle with it anymore, just amused by it.

"Have evolutionists explained abiogenesis or the transformation of inorganic material into organic material?"

[Convoluted backpedaling snipped and translated]?"No"

[shubi]

Okkkkkkkk

[Reuben Hick]

Furthermore, SETI has been searching for evolved beings for years, but have found nothing.

Hey, but it keeps the evolutionists busy on their constant quest for little green men that are smarter than them. Let each child have their toys.

What I find so ridiculous about this foolishness called SETI (well there are many things that I find ridiculous about it) is that those who get into it are mathematically challenged.

The usual story goes like this: Creationist brings up the mathematic improbability practical impossibility of random elements organising themselves into a viable protein chain. Evilutionists wave their hands, declare yet another miracle by their god Chance and declare by fiat a living protein. Then the Creationist reminds them of the mathematical improbability practical impossibility of this protein chain somehow being able to reproduce itself to make a faithful copy. Evilutionists declare another miracle. The Creationist points out the mathematical improbability practical impossibility of this protein chain making a beneficial mutation. No problem, Chance whips out another miracle by violating physical laws and introducing new information into a system. This "game" continues on ad infinitum.

When the Creationist presses the mathematical improbabilities practical impossibilities of any of these things, we are told that infinite monkeys given enough time will compose all the works of Shakespeare hence the necessity for "billions of years". Nevermind the fact that there is no "infinite" number of molecules.

The creationist then patiently reminds the mathematically challenged evilutionists that the atmosphere of the Earth is unique for fostering life. If Earth was any closer or further from the sun, if gravity or the composition was any different... Yep, that's right, the god of Chance performs another miracle and we are told that there are billions and billions of other planets out there, the evidence for these planets is not observation, but by the fact that there are planets in this solar system, there must be planets in other solar systems.

From these billions and billions of planets out there, that no one can find or prove through scientific means, the god of Chance has been feverishly working in combining more molecules into intelligent beings. But these are special beings, much more brilliant than we are, for of these billions and billions of planets out there, many are likely to be thousands and ten thousands of light years away.

These being are so special that when their media entertainment directors get together with their engineers they ask questions like: "Can you make an antennae and transmitter strong enough to reach our audience one hundred thousand light years away on Earth?" The engineers scratch their multiple green heads and ask "is there anyone on Earth that would care?" Then the executives talk about marketing research and how their writers have written material that will go over so well in Western Earth Culture one hundred thousand years from now.

These green creatures are also special in that they are truly forward thinking. Here on earth we think we are so clever to bury time capsules that should be opened after one hundred years. These little green men believe that two hundred thousand years from now (the round trip time for a signal to reach Earth and for us to respond immediately) their spawn will benefit from what we have to say.

Think about that for a moment. Considering where the evilutionists say that man was one hundred thousand years ago, and given how much technology and culture has changed in just the last one hundred years, who gives a rip about anything two hundred thousand years away? Like we are going to have a conversation?

But the mathematically challenged evilutionist has great hopes and such they rig up these dish antennaes, and devote their employer's computers into sifting through random noise looking for alien porn to watch.

And they laugh at Creationists...

[Jehu]

My point is that Christianity and Evolution are mutually exclusive. You cannot smuggle even a modified Evolution into Christianity, and still have any need of the sacrifice of Christ (as one man) to eliminate sin that came into the world (through one man).

I have not even addressed the fact that evolution is NOT proven, and is essentially unprovable, as such, it is a faith, not science. All the fossil evidence backs sudden appearances of species. There are at least 5 major global catastrophic extinctions shown in the fossil record. All of these speak of sudden acts of creation, or destruction, not the slow evolution over time as evolutionary theory predicts.

Not to mention that you date your checkbook from the appearance of Christ on this earth whether you believe in him or not. Yet not a single human being has ever observed one species "evolving" from another. Even if you combine near species, such as a horse and donkey, you get sterile offspring (mules). Which confirms the Genisis account that said things will have seed in them bearing fruit after their own kind. Tell me, plant a Tangelo seed and what do you get? You don't get Tangelo's!

Now I ask you, prophet of a false religion: What mechanism can you offer that produces symbiotic relationships among species? You are not allowed to use any form of teleology to propose such a mechanism, only naturalistic forces can be used to describe how such relationships can come about. (Queuing Jeopardy theme music)

[kipita]

And don't forget we're still talking about physical evidence. If we're just evolved animals how come sex, alcohol, drugs, and all of Earth's vices don't satisfy the part of mankind we know as the soul. It seems there's something else besides the physical world we are so accustomed to experiencing.

[Jehu]

SETI is the sort of nonsense otherwise intelligent people create when they believe in falsehood. Evolutionary belief demands a frantic search for proof, any proof, that natural forces can assemble together the human mind, or the human eye (given enough time). All evolutionary arguments fall apart at the point where they have to explain the existence of the first atom, the first photon, the first cell, the first fish, the first idiot evolutionist that cannot see the forest for the trees. Romans describes these minds perfectly, in that they worship the creature and not the creator.

Imagine a group of people in a museum that exclaim and gasp over a great painting, theorizing how the paint was mixed, how the canvas was stretched, what the painting means, building great universities to explain the painting.

Yet all the while ignoring the painter who stands beside the painting waiting until they shut up so he can tell them all about it. Stupid darkened minds, most of them willingly so.

[Uri’el-2012]

Hey dummy, I am a Christian Minister.

Just because someone has a brain and doesn't believe nonsensical interpretations of the KJV Bible doesn't mean they aren't Christian.

I think you have crossed the line in judging lest ye be judged.

32 posted on 12/01/2004 7:23:24 PM MST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)

I sense a Christian love of your brothers and your enemies </sarcasm>

Someone may think you are a Christian Minister; but I'm sure Y'shua does not.
You are not a follower of the Christ as you do not obey the Word of G-d.

My L-rd, Y'shua commanded me to judge.

NAsbU John 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

His willing bondslave

chuck