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MANIFESTO OF THE WPPFF/WILD TURKEYS/COALITION OF THE SANE
Me. | 29MARCH05 | Long Cut

Posted on 03/29/2005 8:58:34 AM PST by Long Cut

We, the Witness Protection Program For Freepers, aka the Wild Turkeys, aka the Coalition of the Sane, have through mutual discussion and rigourous thought, determined that:

1. The discussion threads regarding Terri Schiavo (hereafter referred to as "TS") have become too full of innuendo, rumormongering, hyperbole, hysteria, namecalling, paranoia, and general poor behavior to warrant participation.

2. Said threads have degenerated into "echo chambers", wherein the same, common thoughts are continually posted again and again, and the same old disreputable, unconfirmed and/or false urban myths are propagated.

3. Anyone who joins in said theads with alternative viewpoints to the most extreme posts are routinely driven away with slander, accusations, and vile namecalling.

4. No data or evidence contrary to the "prevailing opinions" are accepted, considered, or discussed; and in fact are rejected outright in most instances.

5. That the continued calls for armed insurrection, military or paramilitary involvement, impeachements of politicians and judges, and death threats are embarassing, stupid, shortsighted, doomed to failure, and contrary to most if not all conservative thought prior to this case, as well as damaging in the extreme to FR and the conservative movement as a whole.

6. That such emotional, hyperbolic, and propaganda-driven hysteria is in fact contrary to all conservatives USED to stand for.

7. That the holding up of swastika and other Nazi imagery towards the police and the Bushes, the use of children as political props, and the disruption of the peace at the Woodside Hospice can only reflect badly on conservatives in general, and should be discouraged.

8. That the pursuit of this issue to the exclusion of all others by the GOP has damaged, perhaps beyond repair, the pursuit of other important issues as well as the reputation of the GOP, FR, and conservatism.

The WPPFF is NOT of one mind as to the case of TS or its correct outcome. In fact, wide disagreement exists within our little group. However, we are united in our wish that reason and sanity be respected in the discussion, as well as the rights of all parties involved or participating. We wish to discuss this as adults and intellectuals, as conservatives and as FRiends, not as children screaming past each other on some playground of hysteria. We wish for facts and evidence to be provided, discussed reasonably, and considered fairly.

We reject all accusations of Naziism, "death cultism", or other slander as methods of debate. We reject the practice of "spamming" multiple threads, of posting unending vanities, and the posting of propaganda and calls for violence. We reject, in fact, all unseemly and childish behavior which has come to characterize this case on FR.

We DO invite others to come and reasonably discuss the issue. We have no problem with FReepers who wish to debate in a rational and fair manner, and with due respect for their fellow FReepers. We have NO problem with those whose views are formed by religion; however we reject "preaching" or "being beaten with a Bible" as legitemite debate tactics. Not all of us are Believers, and such tactics only cheapen the source.

If a FReeper finds this an acceptable meansd to discuss this and other issues, they are welcome to join in and participate. Those who find pleasure in attacks, flame-baiting, slander, stalking, and personal atacks will be ignored, and their egos will go unfed.

We assume this thread to be a zone of sanity in an overheated atmosphere. Thus, a general amnesty is in effect. If posters conduct themselves within the guidlines above, we will be happy to discuss and debate with you. If a poster wishes to apologize for past slips of the tongue, or for possible "over-the-top" statements to another, it will be graciously accepted, and your company welcome.

Please bring a sense of humor; we feel that too many have been taking themselves too seriously lately.

Let the discussion begin!

Signed,

The WPPFF, aka The Wild Turkeys, aka the Coalition of the Sane.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: antifreepers; antimilitary; bloodlust; cary; clownposse; du; eugenics; euthanasia; forcedexit; moles; murder; nazi; singer; trolls; wildturkeys; wppff; zot
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To: Long Cut

> Sick people like you simply have to be locked up so they can't hurt themselves.

And that's what they think of all of us "infidels."

Just damn.


4,401 posted on 04/03/2005 4:01:19 PM PDT by mhking (If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!)
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To: Long Cut; unbalanced but fair; nopardons

*Sigh.


4,402 posted on 04/03/2005 4:03:22 PM PDT by Neets
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To: Anybody

Why is the "Latest News on Terri Schiavo" still up? Why not a "Latest news on the death of the Pope?"


4,403 posted on 04/03/2005 4:06:58 PM PDT by sinkspur (Be not afraid. Be not afraid.)
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To: Long Cut
Servant of the 9's ongoing exchange.

I don't seem to be able to control myself.
I just have to try to give some of these extremists a stroke before they give me one.

So9

4,404 posted on 04/03/2005 4:08:26 PM PDT by Servant of the 9 (Stuck in Kamikaze Mode)
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To: mhking
Gets even better. These people, BTW, consider themselves "conservative". On what planet, one wonders?
4,405 posted on 04/03/2005 4:08:48 PM PDT by Long Cut (Threadbearer for the Fellowship of the Wild Turkeys)
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To: sinkspur

The Pope died?

I can't for the life of me understand the underreaction to that.


4,406 posted on 04/03/2005 4:09:55 PM PDT by Neets
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To: Servant of the 9

You did well. However, the person you were arguing with is one of FR's most prominent proponents of government regulation of PRIVATE matters. I've seen him call for the complete banning of all adult, consensual pornography, all drugs, and the official recognition that America is a "Christian Nation", with laws to reflect that.


4,407 posted on 04/03/2005 4:11:16 PM PDT by Long Cut (Threadbearer for the Fellowship of the Wild Turkeys)
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To: sinkspur
Why is the "Latest News on Terri Schiavo" still up? Why not a "Latest news on the death of the Pope?"

Priorities.

4,408 posted on 04/03/2005 4:12:59 PM PDT by mhking (If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!)
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To: sinkspur

Yeah, I just asked the same thing.{see post#4383} Maybe someone thinks Terri Schiavo's death is more important?


4,409 posted on 04/03/2005 4:13:21 PM PDT by unbalanced but fair
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To: Neets
Well, at least we know now..... so we might as well make up any old thing,to refute those who post lies and claim that OUR "stories" trump their's, because we say they do.

*sigh*

4,410 posted on 04/03/2005 4:14:35 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Servant of the 9

Hey, Swerve. If nothing else, this case has caused my husband and I to duscuss the matter of living wills and advance medical directives. I know full well that if some catastrophic event causes the loss of my cerebrum, then I'm not there any more, even if my heart is beating, so please, shut off the respirator, and don't let anybody stick in a feeding tube. And he wants the same kindess from me.


4,411 posted on 04/03/2005 4:14:58 PM PDT by .38sw
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To: Neets
His death wasn't part of some three-ringed "cause" or "controversy".

Also, no extraneous sexual or family tensions, no shady hangers-on and lawyers, no protestors with signs.

Too boring.

4,412 posted on 04/03/2005 4:17:19 PM PDT by Long Cut (Threadbearer for the Fellowship of the Wild Turkeys)
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To: Randjuke
I said it was wrong to kill her. That is my opinion. Nothing can change it. No list of "facts" will ever change it.

And I put "facts" in quotes because most of the so-called "facts" posted here were in fact "opinion." Whether it was a poster's opinion, a reporter's opinion, her husband's opinion, a relative's opinion, a supporter's opinion, a detractor's opinion, a politician's opinion, a lawyer's opinion, a doctor's opinion, the president's opinion, the governor's opinion, or even the judge's opinion - they were and are all opinions.

And none of them are incontrovertible or indisputable fact.

In fact, they continue calling in more doctors and more experts to give their opinion even after it's all said and done. In this battle of press, public, politicians, doctors, lawyers and "experts" the side with the most thumbs down votes won and she was killed. What was it, two out of three or three out of five? How about we go for seven out of twelve? How about one "no" vote out of twelve and you don't execute?

The last I heard, in this country when you are on trial for your life, if there is one doubtful juror, you don't receive a death sentence. The accused receives the benefit of the doubt. Of course, Terri did not even receive the benefit of a trial much less the benefit of the doubt. She was simply snuffed out per a judge's order based on three out of five expert "opinions." It's a shame and a disgrace and a mockery of justice.

4,413 posted on 04/03/2005 4:18:29 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: .38sw
Hey, Swerve. If nothing else, this case has caused my husband and I to duscuss the matter of living wills and advance medical directives. I know full well that if some catastrophic event causes the loss of my cerebrum, then I'm not there any more, even if my heart is beating, so please, shut off the respirator, and don't let anybody stick in a feeding tube. And he wants the same kindess from me.

Pretty much the same with my family, though I predict a shouting match with my daughter-in-law if something should happen to my son. However, I hold the power of atty.

So9

4,414 posted on 04/03/2005 4:18:43 PM PDT by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
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To: mhking; sinkspur; unbalanced but fair
There is nothing in the pope's death to feel superior over. Christians the world over grieve over the loss of a righteous man. It is much more fun to name call, demonize and slander those that think differently than you do.
4,415 posted on 04/03/2005 4:18:59 PM PDT by MKM1960 (Now I know how Tom Daschle felt: "I'm saddened, deeply saddened")
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To: Long Cut

You nailed it.


4,416 posted on 04/03/2005 4:20:57 PM PDT by .38sw
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To: Servant of the 9

If my older sister is around, there might be a shouting match, so I'd best get some paperwork done. I haven't done so yet, so I'd better get moving on it. I've seen her in action, and I'd like to spare my husband that particular agony if I can help it.


4,417 posted on 04/03/2005 4:22:16 PM PDT by .38sw
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To: Long Cut

The most loved and respected man ever to be Pope. Admired and loved by people of all walks of life; all races; all religions. Certainly the biggest uniter in our life time.

Sadly, a footnote at the end of the day here.


4,418 posted on 04/03/2005 4:24:36 PM PDT by Neets
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To: Jim Robinson
I said it was wrong to kill her. That is my opinion. Nothing can change it. No list of "facts" will ever change it.

You are certainly entitled to that opinion, many agree with it, even many on this thread.

I think what we are upset about is the breakdown in civility that was allowed to continue. It seemed that half the posts made, including many of mine, were personal invective, not argument.

In the past when issues became contentious, you always suspended as many people as necessary to restore order.
This time, it seems to me that the pro Terri people were allowed to say absolutely anything about anyone, even advocate armed insurection, with impunity, while the Pro Michael/Legal posters had to be very careful or be 'timed out'.

I'm waiting around to see how things shake out.

So9

4,419 posted on 04/03/2005 4:30:08 PM PDT by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
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To: .38sw
Please read up on your state laws. I know here in Ohio there have been some rulings that might conflict with living wills. And then there's "interpretation." But I do agree. No one wants to die, but I refuse to be a burden to my family. Heck, I hate to borrow a couple of bucks. I think I get it from my father.

He spent his retirement years fairly active, even after having a leg amputated. But only after gangrene had set in from a blister.{Circulatory problems.} When he was 86 he was diagnosed with pancreatic and liver cancer. He survived surgery and was told he would live for 2-3 years but would be pretty much bedridden and on dialysis et.al. He was doing well and expected to leave the hospital in a day or two. He died unexpectedly during the night. The doctors were all stunned. I firmly believe that he just decided he didn't want to live that way.

4,420 posted on 04/03/2005 4:32:07 PM PDT by unbalanced but fair
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To: Jim Robinson

"The last I heard, in this country when you are on trial for your life, if there is one doubtful juror, you don't receive a death sentence. The accused receives the benefit of the doubt. Of course, Terri did not even receive the benefit of a trial much less the benefit of the doubt. She was simply snuffed out per a judge's order based on three out of five expert "opinions." It's a shame and a disgrace and a mockery of justice."

Well said, Jim.


4,421 posted on 04/03/2005 4:32:15 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: Servant of the 9

Yeah, right. I could have suspended or banned all members of this website too. There's plenty of blame to go around on ALL sides.


4,422 posted on 04/03/2005 4:33:30 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: Long Cut
His death wasn't part of some three-ringed "cause" or "controversy". Also, no extraneous sexual or family tensions, no shady hangers-on and lawyers, no protestors with signs.

What, Jesse Jackson couldn't catch a plane, fly over to Italy and get some "face time" while conservatives genuflected at his brilliant, if belated, wisdom?

4,423 posted on 04/03/2005 4:33:45 PM PDT by Drango (tag line under repair)
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To: Long Cut
People who want government sticking their noses into what consensual adults do only to and with themselves go against the conservative principles of Jefferson and even Reagan.

I want us to be a moral society too. And I fight radical secularists on other sites like the dickens.

But the radical - hmm... I'll call them "theocrats" - are just the obverse side of the same gov't intrusion coin.
4,424 posted on 04/03/2005 4:35:25 PM PDT by Trinity_Tx (Since Oct 9, 2000) (**From Buckhead to this in 6 months. That's one helluva FReefall.**)
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To: unbalanced but fair

In this case the family was begging to take on the "burden." They should have allowed Terri's parents and siblings to care for her.


4,425 posted on 04/03/2005 4:36:38 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: Jim Robinson

It is your forum and you may run it as you see fit. You are entitled to your opinion also. I am interested to know. Do you still believe that the President should have sent in the Federal Marshalls as you stated?


4,426 posted on 04/03/2005 4:37:51 PM PDT by unbalanced but fair
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To: unbalanced but fair

Yup.


4,427 posted on 04/03/2005 4:38:09 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: unbalanced but fair

Actually, I think he should've went down there himself and offer her a drink of water.


4,428 posted on 04/03/2005 4:39:39 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: Trinity_Tx

"People who want government sticking their noses into what consensual adults do only to and with themselves go against the conservative principles of Jefferson and even Reagan. "


===

I highly recommend that you read Ann Coulter's article. She addressed this extensively.

Here is a link and an excerpt:

THE EMPEROR'S NEW ROBES by Ann Coulter

http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/printer_friendly.cgi?article=48

"Also on the pro-killing side are conservatives still pissed off about the Civil Rights Act of 1964 who are desperately hoping to be elected "most consistent constitutionalist" by their local Federalist Society chapters.

You can't grow peanuts on your own land or install a toilet capable of disposing two tissues in one flush because of federal government intervention. But Congress demands a review of the process that goes into a governmental determination to kill an innocent American woman — and that goes too far!

It's not a radical extension of current constitutional doctrines — even the legitimate ones! — for the federal government to assert a constitutional right to life that cannot be denied without due process of law under the Fifth and 14th Amendments. Congress didn't ask for much, just the same due process John Wayne Gacy got.

But people even stupider than lawyers have picked up on the vague rumblings from "most consistent constitutionalist" aspirants and begun to claim that Congress' action is an affront to "limited government."

Of course, the most limited of all possible governments is a king. We don't have that sort of "limited government." What we have is divided government: three branches of government at the federal level and 50 states with their own versions of checks and balances.

Or at least that was the government designed for us by men smarter than we are. We haven't had that sort of government for decades.

Alexander Hamilton's famous last words in "The Federalist" described the judiciary as the "least dangerous branch," because it had neither force nor will. Now the judiciary is the most dangerous branch. It doesn't need force because it has smoke and mirrors and a lot of people defending the moronic scribblings of any judge as the perfect efflorescence of "the rule of law."

This week, an indisputably innocent woman will be killed by the government for one reason: Judge Greer of Pinellas County, Fla., ordered it.

Polls claim that a majority of Americans objected to action by the U.S. Congress in the Schiavo case as "government intrusion" into a "private family matter" — as if Judge Greer is not also the government. So twisted is our view of the judiciary that a judicial decree is treated like a naturally occurring phenomenon, like a rainbow or an act of God.

Our infallible, divine ruler is a county judge in Florida named George Greer, who has more authority in America than the U.S. Congress, the president and the governor. No wonder the Southern Baptist Church threw Greer out: Only one god per church!

It's a good system if you like monarchy and legally sanctioned murder. But spare me the paeans to "strict constructionism" and "limited government."


4,429 posted on 04/03/2005 4:41:17 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: Jim Robinson

I appreciate the reply.


4,430 posted on 04/03/2005 4:42:22 PM PDT by Randjuke
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To: Jim Robinson

Well, no one can truly know what peoples' motives are. Since I only know of the Schindlers what I have seen on television, I can only speculate on what their motivations were. Much like the people who speculated about Michael's motivations without knowing him personally.


4,431 posted on 04/03/2005 4:43:55 PM PDT by unbalanced but fair
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To: Jim Robinson
Thanks for dropping in. I hope this thread hasn't caused too many problems for you or the mods.

" They should have allowed Terri's parents and siblings to care for her."

She was, early on, sent to live at ther parents' home. After three weeks, they sent her to a care facility. They claimed it was too difficult.

4,432 posted on 04/03/2005 4:47:14 PM PDT by Long Cut (Threadbearer for the Fellowship of the Wild Turkeys)
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To: sinkspur
Why is the "Latest News on Terri Schiavo" still up? Why not a "Latest news on the death of the Pope?"

Don't you get it? The Pope is just the Pope. But Terri died for you. </sarcasm>

4,433 posted on 04/03/2005 4:47:15 PM PDT by malakhi
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To: Jim Robinson
There's plenty of blame to go around on ALL sides.

Sorry Jim, I don't buy that. (I'm the victim here and like all good victims I'm gonna snivel about it.) There was, and still is, a preponderance of adhominum attacks alleging that long time conservative FReepers are Nazis, death cultists, evil or lacking in a soul.

I guess that we don't see the same thing is part of the problem....

4,434 posted on 04/03/2005 4:48:13 PM PDT by Drango (tag line under repair)
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To: Jim Robinson

Then you would condone him doing the same thing to abortion clinics? Sorry, it takes me a minute or two to post. I'm babysitting my grandson.


4,435 posted on 04/03/2005 4:48:17 PM PDT by unbalanced but fair
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To: Jim Robinson
There's plenty of blame to go around on ALL sides.

Agreed. As I said in my original article, there are no winners here.

I just wish the uncivility (is that a real word?) that has sprouted would settle down - too many good people are all of a sudden at each other's throats with Nazi picture posts from people and name calling from some on both sides.

4,436 posted on 04/03/2005 4:49:57 PM PDT by mhking (If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!)
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To: unbalanced but fair

Abortion is wrong.


4,437 posted on 04/03/2005 4:51:46 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: FairOpinion
1. Anne completely misses the fact that the core of this matter is not that he state decided Terri was not worthy or healthy or alert enough to live, but that they found, right or wrong, that there was clear and convincing evidence that it was Terri's wish to refuse treatment, even if it was life-sustaining.

Once that critical question was decided, we need to focus on attacking that point, or whether she could get better enough to "change her mind", or getting the legislature to tighten up the "clear and convincing" standard -- not wasting our time and energy on other nonsense like how cruel it is, or misleading interps of bone scans.

2. Anne also says it is the duty of the National Guard to protect our borders.

I prefer this one from Freeper David Gold of KSFO and ABC talk radio:
Posted by davidtalker to sinkspur
On Smoky Backroom 03/24/2005 10:08:00 PM CST · 518 of 6,101

Thanks for the thread. Thanks for a refuge of sanity here.

Conservatives are now doing what the Libs couldn't accomplish. Rip each other apart and risk dragging down the movement. Some have called it a Conservative "Crackup." All I know is that this is extraordinarily painful.

I have fought tooth and nail for this movement for thirty years. Now, with success at hand we are witnessing the coming apart of a very solid coalition of Social, Process, Libertarian, Populist and other "hybrid" Conservatives. The inability of people to deal with different points of view in a very difficult and complex case without vicious insults is very sad.

I feel it would be best to start all over with Terri Schindler's case. I pray the last ditch efforts to replace the feeding tube is successful. However, I am not happy with the process. I do not believe the Federal Government has any business in the case. I despise the hyperbole, the misrepresentation and outright lies that have been concocted to make the case. There is so much misinformation and ignorance out there and it is taken as gospel. It is not pretty. It is not what I expect from Freepers and our Movement.

This situation is causing me great difficulty. I consider myself a Social Conservative, a libertarian and a "Process" Conservative. Thus, this case leaves me incredibly CONFLICTED.

Just being "conflicted" is not enough for many. I have said on the air (KSFO-San Francisco) I support Terri's struggle. We do not starve people to death in this nation. But, to many that's not good enough.If I express reservations of any sort concerning the pro-Terri zealots or discuss my concerns about questions of Federalism issues, I am questioned about my Christianity. Some say "you are brainwashed by "G-D Michael Schiavo"...

I'm a big boy. The criticism comes with the territory. However, what really hurts is seeing what we have worked for coming undone. The Nation is watching this display and seeing a scene that fits all of their stereotypes of what they believe "The Religious Right" to be. How many of you saw the 10 year old boy handcuffed in Pinellas Park (where I lived when I did a show in Tampa-St.Pete 1980-83)and taken to jail for trying to bring water into the hospice. What do you think the average American thought when viewing that scene? I have interviewed Randall Terry and Bo Gritz over the years. We agree about most issues. However, I find it disappointing to see them out front and the face of our movement.

It is time to get back to basics. What I have fought for over the years is in jeopardy. I was doing Conservative talk radio before it was "cool." When Rush was "playing the hits."When we were in the wilderness it was easy. Now that we have a good deal of the power our movement has lost its way.

The Republican Party has long since abandoned Conservative principals. It has become a "Governing" Party. Not a Conservative vehicle. The display of Congressional hearings on steroids in baseball followed by the unfortunate Congressional involvement in the Schiavo case is simply the perfect symbols of how we have lost our way.

Conservatism is about the government that governs least governs best. Government is a necessary EVIL. We should be concerned that we have lost sight of the notion of individual Freedom which brought most of us to the Movement. Hayek, Friedman,Kerr et al.

The GOP should concern itself with defending the nation. Providing security in the war on terror, and keeping our military as strong as it can be. The GOP should be about turning back the welfare State, defunding the Left, protecting our borders, cutting our tax burden, and generally downsize the Federal Government.

Activist Judges are a HUGE problem. There is tyranny on the bench. I discuss these out of control unelected officials all the time. However, the Schiavo display is simply providing the Libs with fodder in the battle to keep Bush nominees off the Court. They will appeal to their base and, more importantly, to average middle of the road voters, with "see what you get if these people control our Courts?" The display the extremists are putting on plays right into their hands. And the irony is, I see nothing to suggest there is "judicial Activism" in this case. I know the arguments. I have read the legal particulars ad nauseum. The Judges have simply followed established law and Florida Statutes. They haven't made law. Quinlan and Cruzan have established the guardianship issues. Scalia in Cruzan made it clear. This is NOT A FEDERAL CONCERN.

I have never posted anything remotely as emotional and as lengthy as this in all my year here. I do it because we need some sanity. People of good will can disagree without being called names and worse. Disagree without being disagreeable. This is a very complex and personal issue. People here deserve to be treated with respect. And when the Schiavo ordeal has been resolved I just hope and pray we can come together and move forward to push legislation in the States, where the issue belongs, that clearly protect those who would die such a horrid death. Then Terri Schiavo will not have suffered in vain.

4,438 posted on 04/03/2005 4:53:29 PM PDT by Trinity_Tx (Since Oct 9, 2000) (**From Buckhead to this in 6 months. That's one helluva FReefall.**)
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To: Long Cut

"She was, early on, sent to live at ther parents' home. After three weeks, they sent her to a care facility. They claimed it was too difficult."

=====

This is the first time I heard anyone claim this.

I hope you have a source to back up this allegation.

I thought you wanted to deal with FACTS ONLY on this thread.


4,439 posted on 04/03/2005 4:54:07 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: eddie willers

Thanks for the encouraging words. The Democrat party in its current state is dead. I didn't become a conservative overnight on September 12th, but I definitely stopped calling myself a liberal on that date. I was ashamed and disgusted by people I called friends and colleagues, deeply ashamed of their vicious raging anti-Americanism on a day when the fires still burned at the WTC and body parts lay everywhere. I wish the media had the courage to show what a first responder friend of mine saw, smelled and breathed in those horrible first days as he helped dig in the rubble.

Truth to tell, my discontent with liberals was already well in place and my faith sorely shaken by Clinton's shenigans and the excuses made for him by liberals. Had he been a Republican...well, I needn't finish the picture for you.

"I only hope this sad episode has not damaged the Party so severely that we have awoken a Democratic Party that will dump Micheal Moore and their wacky 10 percenters and thus set us back twenty years."
____________________________
I don't think the Democratic party will wake up, eddie--when 3,000 fellow citizens were crushed, burned, tortured, and vaporized, they simply went further to the left and it gave them something new to blame on Pres. Bush.

I will never, never vote Democrat again, unless the candidates views mirror Zell Miller's; and I believe after Zell, the species will go from endangered to extinct.

And I am not alone.

Thanks again.


4,440 posted on 04/03/2005 4:54:34 PM PDT by ariamne (reformed liberal--Shieldmaiden of the Infidel)
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To: malakhi

And a good example of how failure to vet these sources can be fodder for the enemies of FR..and the enemies of America.


4,441 posted on 04/03/2005 4:57:13 PM PDT by ariamne (reformed liberal--Shieldmaiden of the Infidel)
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To: mhking

Happens all the time. Sometimes the players on are the giving end sometimes on the receiving end. Depends on the issue, but when the heavy hand of government is involved, eventually one side or the other starts in with the slippery-slope-to-nazism smears.

In this case, it was a very emotional issue and I decided early on to let it run it's course.


4,442 posted on 04/03/2005 4:57:14 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: FairOpinion
Link which backs up my post.

Interesting stuff on that timeline. Might I suggest that this is the first time you heard it because you were rarely on a thread where anyone might have brought it up?

4,443 posted on 04/03/2005 4:57:31 PM PDT by Long Cut (Threadbearer for the Fellowship of the Wild Turkeys)
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To: sinkspur

This pretty well sums up the past two weeks.
_______________________________________________
Agreed; the tension, fear and anger had an almost physical presence.

And it has only begun, in some ways.


4,444 posted on 04/03/2005 5:00:31 PM PDT by ariamne (reformed liberal--Shieldmaiden of the Infidel)
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To: Trinity_Tx

bttt


4,445 posted on 04/03/2005 5:01:59 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Jim Robinson

I certainly agree with that. I think there's more to this than what's been discussed. I was on a thread and a poster brought up the fact that a lady who had her life support removed was elderly. So therefore, by implication, it was okay. What the heck does that mean? Is there a line to be drawn? And where is it? Is pulling the plug on a respirator and suffocating someone to death okay? Or only if they're old? Or if they're terminal? This is such a complex issue. I've seen people say a person should have no choice at all in the matter. I'm just not happy with the government making those choices for me. Sorry if I sound like I'm ranting.


4,446 posted on 04/03/2005 5:02:09 PM PDT by unbalanced but fair
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To: Jim Robinson
In this case, it was a very emotional issue and I decided early on to let it run it's course.

And now that you've seen it in action, what are your thoughts about letting it run its course next time?

4,447 posted on 04/03/2005 5:02:27 PM PDT by general_re ("Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith, but in doubt." - Reinhold Niebuhr)
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To: Long Cut

bttt


4,448 posted on 04/03/2005 5:05:10 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: general_re

Have no idea.


4,449 posted on 04/03/2005 5:06:33 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: Long Cut

The website has no substantiation of their timeline and events that take place, and they also make glaring omissions.

The facts still remain, that:

1. There was significant uncertainty about Terri's wishes, certainly no "clear and convincing evidence" that she wanted to be starved and dehydrated to death.

2. PVS is misdiagnosed in 35-43% of the cases, according to several medical research papers.

3. MS had significant conflict of interest with Terri being allive: money and another family he establiished, so he is hardly an unbiased guardian.

4. Terri did NOT have a lawyers representing her interests. Her interests were only represented by her guardian, who had significant conflicts of interest, thus her rights to due process were denied.

5. Terri's parents offered MS to keep the money, book and movie deals, just let them take care of their daughter, and MS and Judge Greer refused.

6. In view of all of the above Greer ruled to not only withhold "artificial" nutrition or hydration, but food and hydration by any means, even specifically denying the petition to allow Terri to be given food and water by mouth.


4,450 posted on 04/03/2005 5:09:44 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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