Skip to comments.Sex and the Unmarried Christian
Posted on 04/28/2005 12:03:24 PM PDT by Recovering_Democrat
Lauren F. Winner started a lot of conversations when she published her 2003 memoir, "Girl Meets God," about her journey from Orthodox Judaism to evangelical Christianity. Now, with the publication of her new book, "Real Sex: The Naked Truth About Chastity," Winner, a former Beliefnet books editor, again is turning heads with her frank arguments about Christian sexual ethics. Winner spoke to Beliefnet about everything from why masturbation is a "separation from reality" to how she and her now-husband reined in their sexual impulses while they were dating.
What is the sexual ethic of "Real Sex?" Is it as simple as, "just say no?"
I think capturing the core message of the book in the phrase 'just say no' is problematic. Whenever I speak with youth groups or college student groups about sex and chastity, I often start by asking them, what does the Bible tell us about sex? Every single time, the first person who speaks says you shouldn't have sex before marriage.
Starting with that negative doesnt make any sense. So I start from the positive point that sex was created by God, our bodies were created by God, and they are good. Sex was made for marriage, and therefore sex doesnt belong any other context than marriage. The second reason I wouldnt want to summarize it as 'just say no,' is that I think that catchphrase puts us into a place where we resist strong bodily urges like sexual desire solely through the will. And while I think the will is certainly a part of Christian living, it's the will that is empowered through God's grace. The catch phrase of 'just say no' places too much burden on our will and doesnt acknowledge the crucial place of God's activity in our faithful living.
In the book, you share a lot of personal information and personal stories. Have there been moments when you wished you could re-write history?
Sure. I wrote this book because sex and chastity have been such huge issues in my own life, and I didnt feel that any of the books that people were giving me, or any of the seminars that I was attending, were quite fitting the bill.
Sexual sin in my life is something that I feel real shame and discomfort about. This is not something about which I feel cavalier.
It is also something that I think God forgives. Finding the balance between beating ones breast but also appreciating Gods forgiveness is difficult. Theres part of me that of course wishes I could re-write history. If theres a part of me that doesnt wish that, its the part that knows that I couldnt have written this particular book were it not for my particular life experiences.
Can you explain the concept of "on the steps of the Rotunda?"
Its the story of how the man that Im now married to and I navigated sexuality when we were dating. We got this advice from a very good friend of my husband Griffs, a man whos a campus pastor at the University of Virginia, which is near where we live. He said, what you can do sexually with each other in private is whatever you would feel comfortable doing standing on the steps of the Rotunda, which is the architectural capstone of the university's campus.
There were two really important pieces of wisdom in that. One was simply the fact that we had a conversation partner, it wasnt Griff and me in the throes of passion trying to make this decision for ourselves. It was a decision made in community with someone who knew us well and was able to give us guidance that took our particular stories into consideration. Second, the pastor recognized that there are public dimensions to sexuality and private dimensions to sexuality.
Weve heard about college students at Christian colleges who are sexually active but also very religiously committed. What is the disconnect there?
While a large percentage of college-aged Christians are not having sex, a lot of them are. Then theres the sort of equally large category of unmarried Christians who are having oral sex and saying this doesnt count, Im still a virgin because Im not having genital intercourse. Part of whats going on is that the society in which we live is ever more sex-saturated, and people get married later. Its obviously easier to stay chaste if you think youre going to get married at 19 than if youre getting married at 35. But, though the church is often accused of being too obsessed with sex, and while I think people in the church are very well-meaning about wanting to help unmarried Christians stay chaste, some of the tools that the church gives unmarried Christians are a little thin.
Is the True Love Waits pledge program one of those?
I don't want to pick apart a particular program. Recent studies have come out to show that abstinence pledge card programs tend to delay sexual activity in teenagers by 18 months. So the average non-pledge-card-signing teenager has sex at 18, the average person who signs a pledge card has sex at 19 and a half.
But these programs also don't do college-aged or teenage girls any favors in basically denying that women have sexual desires and saying that their job in remaining chaste is to fend off the walking ball of hormones who takes them to the movies and tries to have sex with them.
One of the things I talk about in the book is in particular how we talk about womens sexuality. So many Christian books that Ive read on sexuality really dont acknowledge that women have libidos. I dont think that we have to say that men and women are identical, or that men and women experience sexuality in identical ways, to recognize that women do have libidos. We would better serve unmarried women in the church to instead say, look, women also feel sexual desire, and here are some ways that you can discipline that desire rather than saying, eh, youre not really going to have to worry about this.
What do you suggest that women do with their sexual needs if they find themselves in their 30s and havent met the right guy yet?
I dont necessarily suggest that women 'do' anything. One of the questions that constantly comes up in this discussion is, how can I be sexual as an unmarried person and a Christian? And that question always means one of two things. Its either a coded question about masturbation, or its a question which invites some answer like, just take a bubble bath and drink a glass of Chablis, and that will be a sensual experience for you.
People keep asking that question hoping that theres some third answer. What we have to recognize is that the Christian life is full of loss, suffering, and difficulty, in addition to being full of joy, contentment, and peace. Part of what unmarried Christians cope with is that stark recognition that chastity is sometimes really difficult. You have sexual desires and longings that are not fulfilled, just as married Christians sometimes do. The answer involves recognizing that this is a discipline of abstinence, and sometimes it is really difficult and doesnt feel good.
You write that masturbation, if its done frequently, can become a substitute for reality. What do you mean by that?
One of the guidelines or benchmarks that I use in thinking about sex, and here again this is where its important to start with a positive vision of sex, is that sex was created to be relational. In Gods vision, any sexual activity that takes sex outside of a relational reality is something to worry about. Now, there are Christians who think that any masturbation, ever, is horrible and should be avoided at all costs. I would not say that. The Bible doesnt have anything to say about masturbation. A lot of Christian ethicists today would agree that masturbation falls into a gray area.
I would get concerned not with the occasional masturbating experience, but rather with habitual, regular masturbation. I dont have some magic number in my head, for how many times a month crosses the line into habitual masturbation, but if someone is masturbating really frequently, I would worry about how that is forming youre his or her expectations and thoughts about sexuality, and what it's teaching about sex being instantly gratifying. I would also wonder if there were something going on emotionally, such as taking emotional refuge in masturbation the same way people might take emotional refuge in porn or promiscuous sex or whatever.
What is your advice to couples who get married but who come from different sexual backgrounds from each other?
Speaking from my own experience, marrying someone who was a virginand I wasntit has not been easy. My mother died right before I got married, and comatose libido tends to be associated with bereavement. But thats how real sex works, there are added layers: youre stressed out because of things at work, your mother has died and your libido is in a coma, or whatever. One of the major themes of this book is community. Chastity is a community discipline and we need to be in conversation with our brothers and sisters in Christ about sexuality. But Im well aware that its not easy.
Its not just sex but marriage that we need to be open with our community about. Marriage is hard, and married sexuality is only one of many aspects of married life that is difficult, and you feel like youre not doing it right. I have innumerable friends whove said, I felt like on my wedding night or my honeymoon, I was supposed to be rarin to go, wanting to have sex 24/7, and I didnt feel that way so I felt like a failure. We have so many expectations coming from so many different places. Its crucial that you try to be reflective not only with your spouse, but with some wise friends who can walk with you.
Can sex ever become too big a part of someones marriage? Would you use the language of chastity to talk to a couple that was in that situation?
Certainly I think sexual brokenness can manifest itself in marriages just as easily as it can manifest itself outside of marriage, and I can imagine marriages where sex becomes too all-consuming. Some couples might use sex as an escape from some other issues. In the book, the way I talk about marital sexuality has more to do with wanting to suggest that our contemporary society has started defining good sex in a marriage as that sex which parrots unmarried sex as much as possible, that its always swinging from the chandeliers, and that it is not grounded in domesticity. Flipping through contemporary magazines and talk shows, I think we get the message that domestic routine is at odds with what sex is.
The Christian message would actually be the opposite of that. We would say, if sex was made for marriage, we must learn from that something about what good sex looks like. That doesnt mean its not exciting--of course married sex can be exciting--but rather that it is part and parcel of married life and ones domestic economy. In general in the book, I try to remember that there are lots of disciplines of abstinence in the church, like fasting and simplicity and tithing and so forth, and that what these disciplines have in common is that they clear out a space to allow us to attend to God in a particular way. I wouldnt suggest that everyone has to adopt a Lenten sex fast like some of my friends did. But sex does require discipline--the discipline of fidelity, along with figuring out the discipline of having sex when you dont want to, or refraining from having sex when you really want to.
What are your views on sexual education? When, and wherepublic schools, churches, families?
I would say, from the womb. I imagine that when one has kids, these are not soundbites were trying to impart to our children, but ways of faithfulness that were trying to form in our children. Its not going to work if you wait till theyre 13 and sit them down and have one conversation about the birds and the bees. Rather, that should be a process that starts from day one. Its unfortunate that socially were in a situation where we have to have curricula about these things. You dont form character by having experts come in and teach a seminar to 9th graders.
I would hope that schools, churches, and other groups would think about sexual education in pretty broad terms, as part and parcel of fostering good character. It might somehow be something thats integrated into the life of a school and not something thats taught in PE class one month a year. That sounds like a pipe dream, though.
Apparently he was better than she about reining in those nasty sexual impulses--she admits later in the article that only "he was the virgin" on the wedding night. Strange? To me it is as testosterone always trumps estrogen in the desire department...
"Sex and the Unmarried Christian"
I just wish that this extremely conservative agnostic (yes they are compatible Dagnabit!) married guy could get some. In case Mrs. Exile is reading this, just kidding hon, what's for dinner?
bump for later reading
Cosmopolitan and FHM are definitely NOT the best sources for healthy married sex.
After your wife reads your quote, undoubtedly Alpo, to match the decor of your accomodations....
Huh?? What about Genesis 38: 8-10?
38 8: Juda, therefore, said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.
38 9: He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, he spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother's name.
38 10: And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing
Agreed. That's a fantastic comment.
Well, if God killed everyone who masturbates, there wouldn't be anyone left.
Lauren F. Winner started a lot of conversations when she published her 2003 memoir, "Girl Meets God," about her journey from Orthodox Judaism to evangelical Christianity
Uh, God slew him because at the time his duty was to continue the family line in the place of his brother.
He shirked his duties and this was detestable.
That was a severe penalty for early withdrawal.
More seriously there is a question of whether the penalty was for the act in general or because the act was in defiance of the command for Onan to "keep his brother's name alive" with his brother's widow.
Also, that has nothing to do with female masturbation, as it refers to "spilling of seed."
That is coitus interruptus not masturbation.
Doesn't have anything to do with masturbation. It has to do with Onan disobeying God's command.
Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.
Again, the passage says NOTHING about masturbation.
BTTT to read later
I think that's about something other than masturbation which is depicted in most every porno.
While Onanism has become a synonym for masturbation, read the passages again. It could just as easily be that Onan was using the withdrawal method, a very risky mode of birth control but nevertheless a reasonable interpretation based on the description in the passages.
I think the sin Onan committed was denying his wife/brother's wife a child...not necessarily the "spilling of the seed".
Of course, if that passage says anything about masturbation, it directly contradicts the author's assertion.
That story was about greed, not whackin'.
The Onan Incident (Gen. 38:8-10, Dt. 25:5-10)
Some say "Onan was killed by God because he didn't show love for his brother by having a child. He should have had at least one child before practising birth control, and then God wouldn't have been angry." Deuteronomy eliminates this reason as a possibility, because it says that regardless of a man's motives for refusing to raise up seed for a dead brother, the man is not to be put to death. He is to be humiliated only ... Onan was put to death for what he did, while the man in Dt. 25 is not. As we compare the two Bible texts, we need to ask, "What did Onan do that the man of Dt. 25 didn't do?" ... the difference is that while Onan wasted his seed, the other man didn't!
On the steps of the rotunda? Man, that's hot!
Save for later
Okay, let's assume that's true. If that is the correct interpretation (i.e. that the withdrawal method is a sin), then how could masturbation not also be immoral?
That misses a key point. This wasn't just any coupling. From this union, came the tribe of Judah, from whom the Jews are descended.
In other words, Onan's act almost prevented the line from which the Messiah will come (or has come, if you are Christian). That was the crime worthy of the severe penalty.
May as well commit the sin, then.
So many Christian books that Ive read on sexuality really dont acknowledge that women have libidos.
So, my wife frequently doesn't either.
I can't tell you exactly when I learned about sex, because I'd been learning about it since I was a child. Gradually, and age-appropriate of course, but I was taught since infancy. My parents answered my questions but more importantly, I was instilled with the moral guidelines and principles that I would take with me as I grew older. I was taught scripture since I was born, just as Timothy was taught from infancy. I was taught respect for our Godly purpose on this earth, and that everything we do should be to God's glory. I was taught about chastity and honor.
I was taught the Biblical view of sex and marriage. I was also taught how I could do my best to stay out of tempting situations. Even something as "minor" as an engaged couple going alone to view their soon-to-be home can lead to sexual immorality.
It's not about rules and laws. It's about guiding principles and LOVE. Love for God means obeying His commandments. And understanding that His commandments for us come from His love for us. I've seen friends of mine go through so much suffering because they didn't wait to have sex within the confines of marriage. Disease, pregnancy and biggest of all, heartbreak. Most importantly, knowing that you've fallen short of God's standards. And you haven't honored and respected yourself when you lend the precious gift of your body to someone who hasn't vowed to care for it forever.
The passage in Deuteronomy recites a law handed down several centuries after the events described in Genesis 38:8-10. It is thus clearly inapplicable.
On our Pre-Cana weekend, 30 years ago, the couple who was leading the discussion on Sexuality recommended that the newly married couple should NOT have sex on their wedding night. They said that for the most part, couples are exhausted by all of the events of the day, and probably having traveled to their destination. He suggested climbing into bed, kissing each other once, JUST ONCE, then getting a good night's sleep and planning to just stay in the room the following day.
We all got a good laugh out of it, but he was absolutely right!! On top of all the activity on that most tiring of days, folks shouldn't expect too much in the way of intimacy. That good night's sleep would be just the ticket!
Instead of honoring his brother's memory and his sister in law, he dishonored them. It was a sin against family.
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but thats exactly why I stay away from Bible Thumping women. Gee whiz I'm 38 years old and any woman tells me I have to wait until I marry her to get some, oh well baby see ya later.
The difference is Onan went into his brother's wife, and then shamed her. The hypothetical in Deut. simply refuses to perform the rite at all.
Sure. And if God killed everyone who ever sinned, there wouldn't be anyone left. But these statements hardly imply that sin does not exist or that masturbation is not a sin.
Fortunately for us, God gave us Christ his son instead of the destruction we deserve.
Moral Absolutes Ping.
Will not be able to read this until later, but it must be good, EdReform pung me to it!
The cultural standard used to be (for many thousands of years) chastity before marriage, fidelity within marriage. Obviously not every single solitary person followed this high standard, but it was the standard. When there is an absolute standard, people know when they fall short, they make informed choices - knowing that if they fall from the standard, there will be repercussions; societal disapproval among them.
Now the cultural standard is such that if a single person lets it be known that he/she is celibate until marriage, very often people make fun of him or her with scorn.
My cats are more moral than many human beings are these days. At least they follow their own nature.
Let me know if you want on/off this pinglist.
(Note: I may have more comments later tonight after I read the article!!!)
Sure there would: the five-percent who are liars, lol!
You need to get to a decent Christian book store. There are lots of them.
Here's another part of the problem. Our modern interpretation of grace allows for a get out of jail free card under any circumstances. There is no eternal consequence to having sex before marriage, or adultry during or divorcing when the couple "grows apart" according to that premise. Any wonder our saved young men and women live just as the unsaved.
Well, I'm 52; and you would be pleasantly surprised at the number of unmarried middle-age Christian women who look forward to marriage and having a very, very uninhibited and active sex life with their future husbands.
Like Abraham, Jacob, Judah, King David, King Solomon....
You just need to say: When she asks you: Will you respect me in the morning??? *YOU* Of course I will... and when she says:
Am I your one and only? *YOU* Of course you are..
Guarantee: Won't have to wait even with a christian girl....
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