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Sex and the Unmarried Christian
Beliefnet.com ^ | 4/28/05 | Holly Lebowitz Rossi

Posted on 04/28/2005 12:03:24 PM PDT by Recovering_Democrat

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To: Modernman
Who says that is what happens when people engage in pre-marital sex?

If it's really "pre-marital," that is, they go on to marry each other, it doesn't.

But if that's not what happens, then there's self-evidently sex, but not commitment.

101 posted on 04/28/2005 2:30:29 PM PDT by Campion (Truth is not determined by a majority vote -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: durasell

It sure seems that way.

Maybe fretting about other married Christians' sex lives gratifies them somehow. But there are so many better things by which to be gratified! :-)


102 posted on 04/28/2005 2:31:33 PM PDT by k2blader (Immorality bites.)
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To: halieus
Matt 7:17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

It's not my religion, but it strikes that a good tree can bear bad fruit in a year that there is too little rain, only to rebound and bear good fruit, if there is the proper rain the next year.

103 posted on 04/28/2005 2:32:06 PM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian (Shake Hands with the Serpent: Poetry by Charles Lipsig aka Celtjew http://books.lulu.com/lipsig)
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To: bourbon

The difference is that a miscarriage happens in the event that something undesirable is going on in the pregnancy.

Nocturnal emissions involve lusting just the same as masturbation.

Another question, if masturbation is so wrong why does it help maintain prostate health? Masturbation lowers the risk of prostate cancer. It would seem God would be in favor of us taking care of our bodies.


104 posted on 04/28/2005 2:32:59 PM PDT by Mr. Blonde (You know, Happy Time Harry, just being around you kinda makes me want to die.)
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To: halieus

NO you won't! Because you don't know what TRULY is in a man's heart only GOD's Knows....

IS GOD going to send an Alcoholic to hell if he still gets drunk? NO Is GOD going to send a man or woman to hell if they have sex before marraige NO...GOD judges unrepentful people.

People will fall even when saved there are no perfect people NONE...GOD knows ones heart not you my friend...


105 posted on 04/28/2005 2:34:07 PM PDT by missyme (Don't let the door hit ya in the ?)
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To: halieus
I've come across people who claim to be Christians but appear to have rotting or apparently nonexistent fruit. I'd be lying if I said it didn't make me wonder..
106 posted on 04/28/2005 2:36:03 PM PDT by k2blader (Immorality bites.)
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To: missyme; RosieCotton
#65..missyme, you enjoy making generalities, don't you...
107 posted on 04/28/2005 2:37:21 PM PDT by Guenevere (Sola Gratia)
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To: halieus; missyme
Jesus: Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

missyme: NO you won't!

Halieus, which one should I believe?

108 posted on 04/28/2005 2:38:30 PM PDT by Rytwyng (Men should only occupy themselves with hunting and war - Genghis Khan, 1162-1227)
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To: Celtjew Libertarian; tx_eggman; Recovering_Democrat

"Onan's act almost prevented the line from which the Messiah will come (or has come, if you are Christian). That was the crime worthy of the severe penalty."

Onan didn't know about that, and so his crime was no better or worse than any other person who either (A)Practiced onanism or (B)Failed to perform his levirate duty. If all he were guilty of were (B), then he only merited the quite mild punishment presribed in Deut. 25.

Historically, Christians have always identified his crime as onanism -- until the 20th Century Protestant contraceptors came along and re-interpreted the passage to make it comatible with the recently invented Protestant doctrine endorsing contraception.


109 posted on 04/28/2005 2:43:40 PM PDT by SausageDog
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To: k2blader

Read Delillo's Underworld. There's a pretty good summary of post-modern sex, etc. buried in there.


110 posted on 04/28/2005 2:45:49 PM PDT by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: Mr. Blonde
Another question, if masturbation is so wrong why does it help maintain prostate health? Masturbation lowers the risk of prostate cancer. It would seem God would be in favor of us taking care of our bodies.


LOL...I can see it now..."But mom--this is for medicinal purposes!"

111 posted on 04/28/2005 2:47:12 PM PDT by Recovering_Democrat (I'm so glad to no longer be associated with the Party of Dependence on Government!)
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To: joesbucks

"Paul tells the chruch (the faithful) in Cornith if you are any of the listed, you will inherit the Kingdom of God (heaven bound). Now with our modern understanding of grace, how could that be. Why would Paul admonish those that they are risking heavenly eternity if they had nothing to worry about."

Good point. If they are all believers they would all get in, no matter what they did. According to many modern christian interpretations. Paul would have to be lying, telling them they were risking heavenly eternity.


112 posted on 04/28/2005 2:48:02 PM PDT by ran15
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To: Rytwyng

Who cares what you believe????It's what GOD Knows and my walk with him...I am a Christian and I am a Sinner and I don't always do my best but I don't go around judging people who are good treat people well and have a decent heart just because they are sleeping with someone responsibly they care about and are not married...

Oh well...


113 posted on 04/28/2005 2:48:27 PM PDT by missyme (Don't let the door hit ya in the ?)
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To: Recovering_Democrat

I think this is an excellent article by a very level headed author. Her words should have value for young Christian people.


114 posted on 04/28/2005 2:48:34 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: Mr. Blonde
Masturbation lowers the risk of prostate cancer. It would seem God would be in favor of us taking care of our bodies.

I see.

Excuse my dubiety, but I'm hard pressed to see how publications like Men's Health have more to say about God's moral law than the Bible or Christian tradition.

115 posted on 04/28/2005 2:49:24 PM PDT by bourbon (quasi morientes et ecce vivimus!)
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To: halieus

ping to post 113.... it doesn't deserve the dignity of a response, but it's very revealing.


116 posted on 04/28/2005 2:51:25 PM PDT by Rytwyng (Men should only occupy themselves with hunting and war - Genghis Khan, 1162-1227)
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To: Guenevere

Preaching to the Chior..Guess I am not a worthy enough Christian as many are here....

Wonder why Jesus din't preach to all the Holier than Thou Folks they were to PERFECT....


117 posted on 04/28/2005 2:52:07 PM PDT by missyme (Don't let the door hit ya in the ?)
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To: SausageDog

Exactly. You might be interested in the link in Post #20, btw.


118 posted on 04/28/2005 2:52:38 PM PDT by bourbon (quasi morientes et ecce vivimus!)
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To: Mr. Blonde
Another question, if masturbation is so wrong why does it help maintain prostate health? Masturbation lowers the risk of prostate cancer.

And your support for this position is? I've done a fair bit of research into this question and have never seen a study that supported it so I am very interested.

119 posted on 04/28/2005 2:53:09 PM PDT by Asfarastheeastisfromthewest...
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To: missyme
And most people that have a Holier than Thou Attitude are usually the worst sinners and or hypocrites...

What's holier than thou about saying "I have made a personal commitment to remaining abstinent until I get married"? I have a number of friends who treat me like the oddball because I'm not out there sleeping around. I don't want to get an STD, I don't want to get pregnant, and I don't want the emotional baggage. It's a logical choice for me.

And if I date some guy who wants me to sleep with him with no commitment on his part, I'm better off without him anyway.

120 posted on 04/28/2005 2:53:56 PM PDT by JenB (Brain the size of a planet, and they have me opening doors...)
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To: bourbon

Christian tradition has struggled with God's law for a long time.


121 posted on 04/28/2005 2:54:51 PM PDT by Mr. Blonde (You know, Happy Time Harry, just being around you kinda makes me want to die.)
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To: missyme
OH Please... Christianity isn't about guilt and dramatics it's about loving your neighbor as yourself helping others loving Christ before you love anyone else it's not about feeling guilty because you had the HOTS for Betty JO and slept with her on a camping trip..

Guilt and dramatics? I can see you're not a Christian, to draw that strange conclusion.

Being a Christian is about submitting my will to Christ's, and trying to be more like Him.
122 posted on 04/28/2005 2:54:56 PM PDT by halieus (God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it is not there.)
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To: Rytwyng

BS..You have no idea who I am and I haven't revealed diddly squat about what I am like although you do know that I am not a hypocrite and I don't condemn people to hell and judge them because they have had sex before marraige.


123 posted on 04/28/2005 2:56:05 PM PDT by missyme (Don't let the door hit ya in the ?)
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To: durasell
Read Delillo's Underworld.

Ah, fiction (just looked it up on Amazon). I can handle that. :-)

124 posted on 04/28/2005 2:56:16 PM PDT by k2blader (Immorality bites.)
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To: johnb838

Just because you're married doesn't mean you're having sex.


125 posted on 04/28/2005 2:56:23 PM PDT by Richard Kimball (It was a joke. You know, humor. Like the funny kind. Only different.)
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To: Recovering_Democrat

I think the rest of it would go, "I'm trying to make sure later when you want grand kids everything will still work."


126 posted on 04/28/2005 2:58:30 PM PDT by Mr. Blonde (You know, Happy Time Harry, just being around you kinda makes me want to die.)
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To: k2blader

First fifty or sixty pages are about the finest writing in the last 30 years. The publisher re-issued those pages as its own book Pafko (sp?) At the Fence -- I think it's called.

Oddly, nobody on this thread is saying that sex is a highly personal matter. So, let me say it: sex is a highly personal matter. And I miss the days of discretion.


127 posted on 04/28/2005 2:59:04 PM PDT by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: halieus

WOW! Now your telling me I am not a Christian...It's people like YOU my dear that make people not want to be a Christian..I have been a Christian for a long time now, wether you agree with it or not is none of my business...

But when I able to obtain perfection I will let you know to see if you approve of me...


128 posted on 04/28/2005 2:59:29 PM PDT by missyme (Don't let the door hit ya in the ?)
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To: k2blader

If I remember right you are a Calvinist? I am a Lutheran. We do believe that you can lose your salvation.

In the end, after many go rounds on the Religion forum, we kind of end up in the same place. If a person persists in unrepentant sin, then they are probably in deep trouble.


129 posted on 04/28/2005 2:59:29 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Recovering_Democrat

One very good book:

"Every Man's Battle" by Stephen Arterburn and Fred Stoeker.

I thought it was good, even for women to read.

For myself it made me think of how I as a woman toy with lusting after people of the opposite sex - people other than my husband (or future husband as at one time was the case) -- by fantasizing and reading romance novels, and especially after marriage, comparing my husband to other men and the qualities I liked in them that he wasn't displaying.

I rationalized that as healthy, but it wasn't.


130 posted on 04/28/2005 2:59:58 PM PDT by Terriergal (What is the meaning of life?? Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him for ever.)
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To: bourbon

Here's a parable that mirrors what I think the lesson of Genesis 38:8-10: I am no biblical scholar, but to me you have accepted only half the meaning that is clear to me just from a standpoint of reading comprehension.

God commanded Onan to go feed his brother's wife, as his brother was dead and she was hungry.

Onan instead fed himself, and dumped his extra food on the ground instead of feeding her. She starved, and God punished Onan.

Now. Is the lesson here that we should never throw away food? or that we should never disobey the order to feed the wife?


131 posted on 04/28/2005 3:00:25 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: SausageDog
Onan didn't know about that, and so his crime was no better or worse than any other person who either (A)Practiced onanism or (B)Failed to perform his levirate duty. If all he were guilty of were (B), then he only merited the quite mild punishment presribed in Deut. 25.

But he didn't know about Deut. 25., either. For that matter, it's not clear what Onan did or did not know, except that he was supposed to conceive children by Tamar. (Indeed, if we go by the laws of Deut., what should be Abram's punishment, for sleeping with Hagar, even with Sarai's permission?)

Furthermore, following this, Tamar conceived twins by her father-in-law Judah. The punishment for this at the time, per 38:24, was burning. However, once she prove that Judah was the father, the penalty was waived.

Okay, granted, Judah may have just been saving his butt and his progeny. Still, that which was considered wrong was made right by who was involved. Certainly, then, something normally acceptable may have been made unacceptable by what the situation, as well.

132 posted on 04/28/2005 3:00:55 PM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian (Shake Hands with the Serpent: Poetry by Charles Lipsig aka Celtjew http://books.lulu.com/lipsig)
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To: missyme
On second thought, perhaps post 113 DOES require a response:

I am a Christian and I am a Sinner and I don't always do my best but I don't go around judging people who are good treat people well and have a decent heart just because they are sleeping with someone responsibly they care about and are not married...

Who cares what you believe????

1st Corinthians 5:9-13 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother (ie, "Christian") but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

133 posted on 04/28/2005 3:03:10 PM PDT by Rytwyng (Men should only occupy themselves with hunting and war - Genghis Khan, 1162-1227)
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To: connectthedots
Well, I'm 52; and you would be pleasantly surprised at the number of unmarried middle-age Christian women who look forward to marriage and having a very, very uninhibited and active sex life with their future husbands.

I wonder how man would be amenable to polygamy? And would that be a Biblical choice when godly men grow scarce?

134 posted on 04/28/2005 3:03:15 PM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: redgolum

Well, I've been told I am a Calvinist but haven't looked into it thoroughly. *LOL*

And yes, I hope you don't mind us not going 'round & 'round with it again here, at least not this time. :-)


135 posted on 04/28/2005 3:03:50 PM PDT by k2blader (Immorality bites.)
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To: meandog; Cyrano
Apparently he was better than she about reining in those nasty sexual impulses--she admits later in the article that only "he was the virgin" on the wedding night.

Depends on when she lost it.

A few act of indiscretion on her part before she learned better doesn't mean masturbation is any better an option. He who looks on a woman to lust after her has ALREADY committed adultery with her in his heart. Since Christianity is primarily concerned with heart attitudes, masturbation is a symptom of that attitude.

And yes, I speak from experience. This is not just conjecture. Cyrano?

136 posted on 04/28/2005 3:06:21 PM PDT by Terriergal (What is the meaning of life?? Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him for ever.)
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To: missyme
It's people like YOU my dear that make people not want to be a Christian

Because I try, with God's help, to follow His law and Christ's example, I make people not want to be Christians?

Sorry, but I'm not about to tell people that sin is "OK" because it's what they want to hear.

If you think that being a Christian is all about patting yourself on the back while you continue in sin, then perhaps you ought to reread the Bible. Jesus wasn't crucified because he made people feel comfortable.

Being a Christian is incredibly difficult, and incredibly rewarding. It's not about what I want, it's about what God wants for me.
137 posted on 04/28/2005 3:07:27 PM PDT by halieus (God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it is not there.)
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To: durasell
So, let me say it: sex is a highly personal matter. And I miss the days of discretion.

Very true!

Not sure where you stand on sex before marriage, but as a Christian I consider it a worthy subject of discussion with other Christians because it's so important to the health of the Church in general.

138 posted on 04/28/2005 3:07:55 PM PDT by k2blader (Immorality bites.)
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To: Terriergal; Recovering_Democrat

"Intended for Pleasure" by Wheat, "The Gift of Sex" by Clifford and Joyce Penner, and "Sacred Romance" by Tommy Nelson are just three of many far better books than 'Every Man's Battle".


139 posted on 04/28/2005 3:09:23 PM PDT by connectthedots
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To: missyme
You have no idea who I am and I haven't revealed diddly squat about what I am like

Actually, you have.

although you do know that I am not a hypocrite

I don't know that, actually.

and I don't condemn people to hell and judge them because they have had sex before marraige.

I don't, either. As I said earlier, I hold nobody's repented past against them. But the Bible COMMANDS us to make certain judgements regarding a person's present, ongoing sins -- for example, expelling them from Church if they won't repent.

140 posted on 04/28/2005 3:10:41 PM PDT by Rytwyng (Men should only occupy themselves with hunting and war - Genghis Khan, 1162-1227)
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To: k2blader
Perhaps it's worthy of intelligent discussion, but mostly what you get is two camps:

A)A badge of honor by way of doing without
B)The never ending search for hypocrisy.
141 posted on 04/28/2005 3:11:58 PM PDT by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: missyme
Wonder why Jesus din't preach to all the Holier than Thou Folks they were to PERFECT....

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
142 posted on 04/28/2005 3:12:26 PM PDT by halieus (God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it is not there.)
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To: TomSmedley
would that be a Biblical choice when godly men grow scarce?

If it were legal and practical. However, it is unwise. Much like drinking too much. (IMO) can you imagine keeping more than one woman satisfied? (not sexually - every man can imagine that, whether or not he's being realistic!)

The Biblical alternative, for a woman, is to purify your mind and set it upon God as your husband, in spite of your human urgings. there is a purpose that God can use, for every good longing, even if it goes unfulfilled in the way you yourself desire it to be, and it is far better to be single than unequally yoked, in spite of how it may feel at the moment.

My sister, impatient and selfish, had long desired to have children when she was married to her even WORSE husband, from whom she is now divorced (he abandoned her). She manifests little petty temper tantrums on occasion, for no apparent reason (just because someone asks her a question when she is focused on a task), and I once told her it was a good thing she didn't have kids. Her feelings were hurt but it is true. She has NO clue how demolished her 'dream' of having a child would be, and how disillusioned she would be, by actually having them. And she will not take anyone else's word for it.

Perhaps she would grow into the task by having a child to care for 24/7, but only if she were filling herself with good spiritual food, which she isn't. I wouldnt' be willing to take the chance that her spiritual appetite would change, and risk a child's spiritual development for that.

143 posted on 04/28/2005 3:13:14 PM PDT by Terriergal (What is the meaning of life?? Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him for ever.)
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To: missyme

Good points.


144 posted on 04/28/2005 3:14:31 PM PDT by Terriergal (What is the meaning of life?? Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him for ever.)
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To: Rytwyng

Okay: Let's See SEXUALY IMMORAL PEOPLE...
To Include:

SO people that are saved but still fall into these classifications are going to Hell?

1. People engaging in sexual relations of any kind before marraige which would include deep kissing and petting of any kind.

2.Unmarried and married people that look at someone else with lust in there eyes or heart, Magazines, the Internet, a person walking down the street) they have already committed ADULTERY.

3. Oral Sex, Masturbation, Sexual thoughts about someone other than your spouse...

Ask a Man how much he thinks about SEX in a given day, get real.....

I am not talking about Perverts, Pedophiles, Homosexuals, I am speaking about Sexuality and the Christian.


145 posted on 04/28/2005 3:15:36 PM PDT by missyme (Don't let the door hit ya in the ?)
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Comment #146 Removed by Moderator

To: JenB; RosieCotton; missyme

I may not have lived it, but I can clearly see that you two, Jen and Rosie, are the ones who are right from a Christian point of view. If your desire is to live as a good Christian, you should abstain from sex before marriage, as well as follow the many other commandments from God that you believe in. To pretend otherwise is to be a sortof cafeteria kind of Christian, obeying only those principles that allow people to still continue to do what they want. Those pick-and-choosers [missyme] should at least admit that... and stop trying to argue with the chaste that failing to obey your faith is just as Christian as committing to it.


147 posted on 04/28/2005 3:16:29 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog

The analogies don't fit....the story was one about a refusal to carry on the family line. In the end it is Judah that carries on the family line...when Judah goes to see a prostitute it is really the aforementioned woman in disguise! (By the way Jesus comes from that line...which was probably why God was so displeased with Onan!)!


148 posted on 04/28/2005 3:17:00 PM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: Rytwyng

People get most upset when faced with truth. Maybe something good will come of it.


149 posted on 04/28/2005 3:17:16 PM PDT by halieus (God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it is not there.)
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To: mdmathis6

Whatever... Still, the part that appears to me to be the sin was the disobedience to the command, not simply the act of spilling.


150 posted on 04/28/2005 3:19:52 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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