Skip to comments.“This Is a Problem”: Dino-Feather Story Gets Scaly (Creation/Evolution)
Posted on 03/15/2006 8:18:18 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger
This Is a Problem: Dino-Feather Story Gets Scaly 03/15/2006
Just when proponents of dinosaur-to-bird evolution were getting agreement on their story, along came Juravenator. Announced in Nature,1 this new dinosaur fossil from Germany is dated later than the earliest alleged feathered dinosaur,
but had no feathers. The finely-preserved specimen, in the same Solnhofen limestone that preserved Archaeopteryx (dated 2-3 million years later), had clear impressions of scales. Commenting on this find, Xing Xu in the same issue of Nature2 explained why this fossil disturbs the simple line from scales to feathers:
The evolution of biological structures must be studied within an evolutionary framework.Its so complex, in fact, that in order to maintain the phylogeny, scientists may have to believe that feathers and scales may have evolved and re-evolved more than once. Xu continues, It would not be surprising [sic] if feathers were lost and scaly skin re-evolved in some basal coelurosaurian species, or if feathers evolved several times independently early in coelurosaurian evolution. Xu opts for the possibility that the discoverers misclassified Juravenator; perhaps it belongs deeper in the evolutionary tree, before the first feathers appeared.
In the case of feathers, a robust theropod phylogeny is the basis for reconstructing the sequence in which feathers evolved [sic]. The distribution of various feather morphologies on the currently accepted phylogeny suggeststhat simple, filamentous feathers first evolved no later than the earliest stage of coelurosaurian evolution.
More complex feathers with a thick central shaft and rigid symmetrical vanes on either side appeared early in the evolution of the coelurosaurian group Maniraptora; and feathers with aerodynamic features, such as a curved shaft and asymmetrical vanes, appeared within the maniraptors but before the origin of birds. This inferred sequence of events is supported independently by developmental data. Gohlich and Chiappe place Juravenator within the Compsognathidae, a group that is basal in the coelurosaurian tree (Fig. 1).
So Juravenator should bear filamentous feathers. But it seems to be a scaled animal, at least on the tail and hind legs.(Emphasis added in all quotes.)
Why, then, does a member of a feathered dinosaur family [sic] bear scales? The authors answer is straightforward: feather evolution, they say, is more complex than we thought.
Keeping a positive outlook, he says that the story of early feather evolution has been enriched by this find, whatever the explanation. Since the fossil record is poor to begin with, Juravenator may complicate the picture, but it makes it more complete and realistic.
See also the popular press on this new dinosaur: National Geographic,
Live Science and MSNBC News. Bjorn Carey invoked convergent evolution in his LiveScience article, and quoted Chiappe saying that he didnt have a precise explanation: We see it as a red flag that says maybe you guys have been interpreting the evolution of feathers in too simple a way. Maybe things are more complex.
In the Reuters story published on MSNBC, Gohlich told reporters, Now we have a little dinosaur that belongs to coelurosaurs that does not show feathers. This is a problem.
Nature 440, 287-288 (16 March 2006) | doi:10.1038/440287a.
Problem? What problem? Scales are scales, and feathers are feathers. Dinosaurs are dinosaurs, and birds are birds. Before, evolutionists wanted us to believe that scales, a skin feature, evolved into feathers that are totally different and embedded beneath the skin. They expected us to believe there was a straight line of descent from gray wrinkles on a dinosaur into the colorful, aerodynamic, exquisitely-designed feathers of acrobatic swifts and high-diving cormorants. They asked us to believe that birds co-opted what appeared to be integumentary structures of doubtful utility on the legs and tails of some dinosaurs and turned them into flying wonders, complete with interlocking hooks and barbules that are lightweight, water-resistant and extremely adaptable (compare doves and penguins).
They expected us to believe that at the same time feathers evolved, dinosaurs transformed all their internal organs and completely redesigned their lungs and most other bodily systems. One only has a problem when one has to keep telling new lies to back up old ones. Check out the whopper Mark Looy found at Chicagos Field Museum (see AIG report): the $17 million Evolving Planet exhibit triumphantly announces to unsuspecting children, Birds Are Dinosaurs. Maybe some day museums will be realizing that evolutionists are dinosaurs, too (see Tom Weller
Oh, OK. You're one of those. Why didn't you just come out and say that you'd rather humans die from burst appendixes, operable cancer, and other easily cured conditions that would otherwise be deadly, in order to satisfy your particular view of the Bible?
You were pretty coy about your beliefs-- why is that exactly?
Healers are to be judged by their fruits, not by fruitcakes.
Sorry, but I had to have surgery to have my very bad appendix removed...had I not had the surgery, I am quite sure I would have died...
What would be your specific resolution for dealing with a bad appendix, other than surgery...
I know that there are many alternative medical procedures, I am just curious as to how one would proceed with a bad appendix...
That is indeed a difficult question, as are many questions of obedience, but your assumption of imminent death is not a given either.
"Where does it say in the Bible that surgery is forbidden?"
I would first counter with the question "where is it advised? or permitted?"
In Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the Lord: Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
And in IIChron 16 we are told in direct terms that King Asa's early death was because he turned to men for his illness, rather than God. The question of when we are crossing that line may be fuzzy, and indistinct, but the issue is real.
Do they want to teach that "side" in Biology class too?
The truth is that deaths from apendicitus have always been rare, and the surgery cannot be credited with saving a life. 'Operable cancer' is nonsense. Cancer surgery is a big money maker for the surgeon, but is is a bad choice for the patient. Cancer is best cured by natural means, and those means should be guided by prayer, not the PDR. Western medicine is unable to cure anything. Diabetes is a good example; they just get rich pumping them full of dangerous drugs, rather than correcting their diet and using the very effective herbal treatments.
"That is indeed a difficult question, as are many questions of obedience, but your assumption of imminent death is not a given either."
I'll take it you would rather die. For no reason. If it was a child of yours, and you withheld treatment, it would be no better than murderer. And I certainly would convict.
" I would first counter with the question "where is it advised? or permitted?"
Where is computer use advised or permitted in the Bible? Most technology we have in modern society was not mentioned in the Bible. God does not tell us in the Bible to stop using our minds, which was a gift from Him. You would have us deny one of the most precious gifts we have. All because... well, no reason really, the Bible doesn't say to do it. You just CHOOSE to deny God's gift. Ever think that maybe THAT'S the way God will heal us?; by giving us the ability to heal ourselves?
If you cut yourself, do you clean the wound and put a bandage on it? Or do you expect God to stop the bleeding for you? I guess you never heard the phrase God helps those who help themselves.
You're working from an erroneous assumption. Apendicitis is not a death sentence. Before the 20th century people didn't have apendixes or tonsils removed but lived on anyway. Surgeons make a ton of money off of unnecessary surgery.
Theory, theory, theory, they keep changing their theory. Scales become feathers, feathers become scales. Whichever, it is all still just theory.
Dino to his poker buddies: "Did I tell you about my grandson? He's a peregrine falcon."
You've got me laughing now! - I often work in shorts and a T-shirt, and get cut up by brush and sharp rocks all the time, and never do anything about it until the end of the day when I have to wash up to look civilized. I've never gotten any infections from cuts of scrapes that are left to bleed - ever.
"I guess you never heard the phrase God helps those who help themselves."
It's a lie from the pit of hell. That is diametrically opposite from what the word tells us.
All chemo does is keep the money flowing from the insurance co. to the doctor until the patient dies. It has no other purpose.
> Western medicine is unable to cure anything.
What an astonishing statement. Are you for real? Polio is gone. Do you realize what a horror that once was? So many diseases are now cured by the work of scientists and doctors using their God-given talents. I would list them all but it would take pages, no... books, to recount all the ways medical science has been used through us by God to work miracles in millions of lives.
Does medical science get it wrong sometimes? Yes. Do they overmedicate, especially in pediatric medicine? Oh, yes, very much yes. YES! People are fallible. Should this keep us from striving to learn and live and help as much as we can given the knowledge we gathered through hundreds of years via the scientific method? NO! It is a sin to bury talents. A grievous sin, especially if using the scientific method helps save precious life.
I do know my sister's life was saved by open-heart surgery... she will live another 30 years or more (God willing) because of a fix to a congenital heart problem. You would steal that time from her life, because of your strange, skewed mangling of scripture.
God help you. I will pray for you.
This absurd argument goes on and on....while children can't find the U.S. on a map.
Except for the day I was born, do you know I have never been in a hospital in my entire life? And I have come close to dying several times.
Western medicine is unable to cure anything.FYI
This could be missing a smiley, or a blatant attempt to make the "Your brain on Creationism" top ten.
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