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“This Is a Problem”: Dino-Feather Story Gets Scaly (Creation/Evolution)
Creation-Evolution Headlines ^ | March 15, 2006 | Staff

Posted on 03/15/2006 8:18:18 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger

“This Is a Problem”: Dino-Feather Story Gets Scaly    03/15/2006  
Just when proponents of dinosaur-to-bird evolution were getting agreement on their story, along came Juravenator.  Announced in Nature,1 this new dinosaur fossil from Germany is dated later than the earliest alleged “feathered dinosaur,”

but had no feathers.  The finely-preserved specimen, in the same Solnhofen limestone that preserved Archaeopteryx (dated 2-3 million years later), had clear impressions of scales.  Commenting on this find, Xing Xu in the same issue of Nature2 explained why this fossil disturbs the simple line from scales to feathers:

The evolution of biological structures must be studied within an evolutionary framework

In the case of feathers, a robust theropod phylogeny is the basis for reconstructing the sequence in which feathers evolved [sic].  The distribution of various feather morphologies on the currently accepted phylogeny suggeststhat simple, filamentous feathers first evolved no later than the earliest stage of coelurosaurian evolution. 

More complex feathers with a thick central shaft and rigid symmetrical vanes on either side appeared early in the evolution of the coelurosaurian group Maniraptora; and feathers with aerodynamic features, such as a curved shaft and asymmetrical vanes, appeared within the maniraptors but before the origin of birds.  This inferred sequence of events is supported independently by developmental data.  Gohlich and Chiappe place Juravenator within the Compsognathidae, a group that is ‘basal’ in the coelurosaurian tree (Fig. 1). 

So Juravenator should bear filamentous feathers. But it seems to be a scaled animal, at least on the tail and hind legs.
    Why, then, does a member of a feathered dinosaur family [sic] bear scales?  The authors’ answer is straightforward: feather evolution, they say, is more complex than we thought.

  (Emphasis added in all quotes.)

It’s so complex, in fact, that in order to maintain the phylogeny, scientists may have to believe that feathers and scales may have evolved and re-evolved more than once.  Xu continues, “It would not be surprising [sic] if feathers were lost and scaly skin re-evolved in some basal coelurosaurian species, or if feathers evolved several times independently early in coelurosaurian evolution.”  Xu opts for the possibility that the discoverers misclassified Juravenator; perhaps it belongs deeper in the evolutionary tree, before the first feathers appeared. 

Keeping a positive outlook, he says that the story of “early feather evolution” has been “enriched” by this find, whatever the explanation.  Since the fossil record is poor to begin with, “Juravenator may complicate the picture, but it makes it more complete and realistic.”
    See also the popular press on this new dinosaur: National Geographic,

Live Science and MSNBC News.  Bjorn Carey invoked “convergent evolution” in his LiveScience article, and quoted Chiappe saying that he didn’t have a precise explanation: “We see it as a red flag that says ‘maybe you guys have been interpreting the evolution of feathers in too simple a way.  Maybe things are more complex.” 

In the Reuters story published on MSNBC, Gohlich told reporters, “Now we have a little dinosaur that belongs to coelurosaurs that does not show feathers.  This is a problem.”


1Gohlich and Chiappe, “A new carnivorous dinosaur from the Late Jurassic Solnhofen archipelago,” Nature 440, 329-332 (16 March 2006) | doi:10.1038/nature04579; Received 1 September 2005; ; Accepted 10 January 2006.
2Xing Xu, “Palaeontology: Scales, feathers and dinosaurs,”

Nature 440, 287-288 (16 March 2006) | doi:10.1038/440287a.

Problem?  What problem?  Scales are scales, and feathers are feathers.  Dinosaurs are dinosaurs, and birds are birds.  Before, evolutionists wanted us to believe that scales, a skin feature, evolved into feathers that are totally different and embedded beneath the skin.  They expected us to believe there was a straight line of descent from gray wrinkles on a dinosaur into the colorful, aerodynamic, exquisitely-designed feathers of acrobatic swifts and high-diving cormorants.  They asked us to believe that birds co-opted what appeared to be “integumentary structures” of doubtful utility on the legs and tails of some dinosaurs and turned them into flying wonders, complete with interlocking hooks and barbules that are lightweight, water-resistant and extremely adaptable (compare doves and penguins). 

They expected us to believe that at the same time feathers evolved, dinosaurs transformed all their internal organs and completely redesigned their lungs and most other bodily systems.  One only has a “problem” when one has to keep telling new lies to back up old ones.  Check out the whopper Mark Looy found at Chicago’s Field Museum (see AIG report): the $17 million “Evolving Planet” exhibit triumphantly announces to unsuspecting children, “Birds Are Dinosaurs.”  Maybe some day museums will be realizing that evolutionists are dinosaurs, too (see Tom Weller

illustrations).



TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: bird; birds; creation; crevo; crevolist; dinosaur; dinosaurs; evolution
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To: editor-surveyor

Oh, OK. You're one of those. Why didn't you just come out and say that you'd rather humans die from burst appendixes, operable cancer, and other easily cured conditions that would otherwise be deadly, in order to satisfy your particular view of the Bible?

You were pretty coy about your beliefs-- why is that exactly?


161 posted on 03/18/2006 7:05:18 PM PST by VictoryGal (Never give up, never surrender!)
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To: editor-surveyor
The Lord gave us solutions to our health issues, none of which includes surgery, and cautioned us not to turn to the ways of men.

Healers are to be judged by their fruits, not by fruitcakes.

162 posted on 03/18/2006 7:12:06 PM PST by js1138
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To: editor-surveyor

Sorry, but I had to have surgery to have my very bad appendix removed...had I not had the surgery, I am quite sure I would have died...

What would be your specific resolution for dealing with a bad appendix, other than surgery...

I know that there are many alternative medical procedures, I am just curious as to how one would proceed with a bad appendix...


163 posted on 03/18/2006 7:16:46 PM PST by andysandmikesmom
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To: CarolinaGuitarman; Dimensio
"If you got into a car accident, and had internal bleeding, you would rather die than be cut open?"

That is indeed a difficult question, as are many questions of obedience, but your assumption of imminent death is not a given either.

"Where does it say in the Bible that surgery is forbidden?"

I would first counter with the question "where is it advised? or permitted?"

In Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the Lord: Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

And in IIChron 16 we are told in direct terms that King Asa's early death was because he turned to men for his illness, rather than God. The question of when we are crossing that line may be fuzzy, and indistinct, but the issue is real.

164 posted on 03/18/2006 9:14:55 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: editor-surveyor
no true Biblical scholar would reccommend that anyone allow themselves to be found on an operating table. The Lord gave us solutions to our health issues, none of which includes surgery, and cautioned us not to turn to the ways of men.

Do they want to teach that "side" in Biology class too?

165 posted on 03/18/2006 9:23:15 PM PST by Bingo Jerry (Bing-freaking-go!)
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To: VictoryGal
"Why didn't you just come out and say that you'd rather humans die from burst appendixes, operable cancer, and other easily cured conditions that would otherwise be deadly, in order to satisfy your particular view of the Bible?"

Total strawman.

The truth is that deaths from apendicitus have always been rare, and the surgery cannot be credited with saving a life. 'Operable cancer' is nonsense. Cancer surgery is a big money maker for the surgeon, but is is a bad choice for the patient. Cancer is best cured by natural means, and those means should be guided by prayer, not the PDR. Western medicine is unable to cure anything. Diabetes is a good example; they just get rich pumping them full of dangerous drugs, rather than correcting their diet and using the very effective herbal treatments.

166 posted on 03/18/2006 9:24:05 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: editor-surveyor

"That is indeed a difficult question, as are many questions of obedience, but your assumption of imminent death is not a given either."

I'll take it you would rather die. For no reason. If it was a child of yours, and you withheld treatment, it would be no better than murderer. And I certainly would convict.

" I would first counter with the question "where is it advised? or permitted?"

Where is computer use advised or permitted in the Bible? Most technology we have in modern society was not mentioned in the Bible. God does not tell us in the Bible to stop using our minds, which was a gift from Him. You would have us deny one of the most precious gifts we have. All because... well, no reason really, the Bible doesn't say to do it. You just CHOOSE to deny God's gift. Ever think that maybe THAT'S the way God will heal us?; by giving us the ability to heal ourselves?

If you cut yourself, do you clean the wound and put a bandage on it? Or do you expect God to stop the bleeding for you? I guess you never heard the phrase God helps those who help themselves.


167 posted on 03/18/2006 9:28:18 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: andysandmikesmom

You're working from an erroneous assumption. Apendicitis is not a death sentence. Before the 20th century people didn't have apendixes or tonsils removed but lived on anyway. Surgeons make a ton of money off of unnecessary surgery.


168 posted on 03/18/2006 9:29:00 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: editor-surveyor
"'Operable cancer' is nonsense."

Nonsense. My brother had cancer surgery 16 years ago. He'd be dead now if he hadn't. He had tumors throughout his abdomen and on a number of internal organs. It wasn't going to go away by wishing.

"Cancer is best cured by natural means, and those means should be guided by prayer, not the PDR. Western medicine is unable to cure anything."

Horse manure. If it wasn't for the chemo my brother was on, he'd be dead now. Instead, he's alive and well, and cancer free. The cancer was CURED, through western medicine.

"Diabetes is a good example; they just get rich pumping them full of dangerous drugs, rather than correcting their diet and using the very effective herbal treatments."

Insulin isn't a *dangerous drug*; it's a necessary hormone that is not produced in sufficient amount by diabetics. Your anti=science ludditism is scary.
169 posted on 03/18/2006 9:33:28 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Theory, theory, theory, they keep changing their theory. Scales become feathers, feathers become scales. Whichever, it is all still just theory.


170 posted on 03/18/2006 9:37:38 PM PST by Dustbunny (Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers)
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To: balch3

Dino to his poker buddies: "Did I tell you about my grandson? He's a peregrine falcon."


171 posted on 03/18/2006 9:38:36 PM PST by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
"If you cut yourself, do you clean the wound and put a bandage on it? Or do you expect God to stop the bleeding for you?"

You've got me laughing now! - I often work in shorts and a T-shirt, and get cut up by brush and sharp rocks all the time, and never do anything about it until the end of the day when I have to wash up to look civilized. I've never gotten any infections from cuts of scrapes that are left to bleed - ever.

"I guess you never heard the phrase God helps those who help themselves."

It's a lie from the pit of hell. That is diametrically opposite from what the word tells us.

172 posted on 03/18/2006 9:39:11 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

All chemo does is keep the money flowing from the insurance co. to the doctor until the patient dies. It has no other purpose.


173 posted on 03/18/2006 9:41:07 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: editor-surveyor
"You've got me laughing now! - I often work in shorts and a T-shirt, and get cut up by brush and sharp rocks all the time, and never do anything about it until the end of the day when I have to wash up to look civilized. I've never gotten any infections from cuts of scrapes that are left to bleed - ever."

I'll take it you would sit and bleed to death if you ever cut a major artery, rather than simply apply pressure and a bandage.

" It's a lie from the pit of hell. That is diametrically opposite from what the word tells us."

Now you've got ME laughing. :) You must be a DU plant; nobody can really believe that. Are you saying that God made us impotent, brainless, brutes with no capacity to help ourselves? The quote is the basis for our capitalist, republican form of government. It's what has made this country the greatest on earth. What you are advocating is what we see in France right now; people incapable of taking care of themselves waiting for the government(their God) to help them. Luckily, most people in the USA don't have your collectivist philosophy yet.
174 posted on 03/18/2006 9:47:34 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: editor-surveyor
"All chemo does is keep the money flowing from the insurance co. to the doctor until the patient dies. It has no other purpose."

It saved my brother's life. The cancer went away as soon as he started the chemo. You are delusional, and dangerous.
175 posted on 03/18/2006 9:48:41 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: editor-surveyor

> Western medicine is unable to cure anything.

What an astonishing statement. Are you for real? Polio is gone. Do you realize what a horror that once was? So many diseases are now cured by the work of scientists and doctors using their God-given talents. I would list them all but it would take pages, no... books, to recount all the ways medical science has been used through us by God to work miracles in millions of lives.

Does medical science get it wrong sometimes? Yes. Do they overmedicate, especially in pediatric medicine? Oh, yes, very much yes. YES! People are fallible. Should this keep us from striving to learn and live and help as much as we can given the knowledge we gathered through hundreds of years via the scientific method? NO! It is a sin to bury talents. A grievous sin, especially if using the scientific method helps save precious life.

I do know my sister's life was saved by open-heart surgery... she will live another 30 years or more (God willing) because of a fix to a congenital heart problem. You would steal that time from her life, because of your strange, skewed mangling of scripture.

God help you. I will pray for you.


176 posted on 03/18/2006 11:07:39 PM PST by VictoryGal (Never give up, never surrender!)
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To: VictoryGal; editor-surveyor
"I do know my sister's life was saved by open-heart surgery... she will live another 30 years or more (God willing) because of a fix to a congenital heart problem."

As was my father when he had a heart attack 5 years ago and had 5 almost completely blocked arteries going to his heart. The quintuple bypass he had meant the difference of living a few days to living the 5 (and counting) years he has lived since then. After the recovery time from the surgery, he felt significantly better than he had before it. He couldn't believe the difference, and how much the blockages were sapping his strength. He owes his life to the surgery.

One of my brothers (not the one saved with the chemo from cancer 15 years ago, see above) was in a car accident about 4 years ago. He had a few dislocated vertebrae that made him lose feeling and control of one of his arms and legs, without warning. He would find himself incapable of moving both legs sometimes. The surgery he had to correct this meant the difference from being an eventual paraplegic (it was getting worse) to where he is now, with no problems at all. He's capable of doing his job as an optician again, which requires considerable dexterity in the hands.

My sister has had MS since she was 15. When she first got it, the doctors weren't sure what it was; by the time they did, she was mostly immobile and capable of moving only her big toes. Couldn't speak anymore. Then she started the medication ( solumedrol) and within a few months she was walking again. If she had never had the medication, she would most likely have been dead now, or at best incapable of doing anything for herself. I would never have known my niece, who my sister had 6 years ago. My sister would have never married. The same can be said when she had double pneumonia 10 years ago and, because of the MS, her temperature dropped so low it didn't read on a thermometer that started at 87 degrees. The care she had that month in the hospital made the difference between life and death for her. There is simply no way she would have survived otherwise.

VictoryGal, I'm sure you, as most of us do, know of other personal examples of people who have benefited tremendously from modern medicine. While it's true that prevention is the best medicine, it's also true that things happen that are out of our control that require us to be proactive in fixing. It's unthinkable and unfathomable that anybody could despise the gift of Reason we have in the way that editor-surveyor has. Or that someone who claims to believe in God would think that God would be pleased that they had rejected his gift and expected God to do for them what he had made them capable of doing for themselves. It's unfathomable that anybody on a forum called Free Republic would think that self-reliance (God helps those that help themselves) is satanic. It's certainly not a view based on the Bible.
177 posted on 03/19/2006 4:56:39 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: DaveLoneRanger

This absurd argument goes on and on....while children can't find the U.S. on a map.


178 posted on 03/19/2006 5:13:21 AM PST by pop-gun
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To: editor-surveyor

Except for the day I was born, do you know I have never been in a hospital in my entire life? And I have come close to dying several times.


179 posted on 03/19/2006 7:33:35 AM PST by zeeba neighba
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To: editor-surveyor; PatrickHenry
Western medicine is unable to cure anything.
FYI

This could be missing a smiley, or a blatant attempt to make the "Your brain on Creationism" top ten.

180 posted on 03/19/2006 8:20:42 AM PST by planetesimal (All is flux)
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