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Evolution's bottom line
National Center for Science Education ^ | 12 May 2006 | Staff

Posted on 05/12/2006 12:13:47 PM PDT by PatrickHenry

In his op-ed "Evolution's bottom line," published in The New York Times (May 12, 2006), Holden Thorp emphasizes the practical applications of evolution, writing, "creationism has no commercial application. Evolution does," and citing several specific examples.

In places where evolution education is undermined, he argues, it isn't only students who will be the poorer for it: "Will Mom or Dad Scientist want to live somewhere where their children are less likely to learn evolution?" He concludes, "Where science gets done is where wealth gets created, so places that decide to put stickers on their textbooks or change the definition of science have decided, perhaps unknowingly, not to go to the innovation party of the future. Maybe that's fine for the grownups who'd rather stay home, but it seems like a raw deal for the 14-year-old girl in Topeka who might have gone on to find a cure for resistant infections if only she had been taught evolution in high school."

Thorp is chairman of the chemistry department at the University of North Carolina.


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KEYWORDS: butwecondemnevos; caticsnotchristian; christiannotcatlic; crevolist; ignoranceisstrength; ignorantcultists; pavlovian
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To: visually_augmented

"It is interesting that the doctrine of evolution is a critical tenet of the religion of atheism."

Indeed it is.


51 posted on 05/12/2006 12:52:29 PM PDT by mlc9852
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Saving the lives of people we love sounds good to me as well.

It seems strange that human beings would have such motives-- as natural as we are.

I thought our genes were more selfish than that.


52 posted on 05/12/2006 12:52:55 PM PDT by lonestar67
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To: Junior

Oh, of course they (we) have an agenda. To make sure students know there is a choice besides godless evolution.


53 posted on 05/12/2006 12:53:09 PM PDT by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852

It's not weird. Some people don't find it necessary to trumpet their particular beliefs or lack thereof to every passerby. I find it odd that you believe there is some nefarious purpose behind this. I mean, do you want the guy to come up, offer his hand and say, "hi, I'm an atheist. I thought you'd like to know."


54 posted on 05/12/2006 12:54:21 PM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: aimhigh; js1138
So, you can proudly claim NAZIism, which is a result of evolutionary doctrine.

Refresh my memory, was it Darwin, Wallace, Huxley, Haeckel, or Martin Luther who wrote an influential essay On the Jews and their Lies

55 posted on 05/12/2006 12:54:42 PM PDT by Virginia-American
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To: mlc9852
Eugenie Scott’s book is a great read and will open your eyes to the truth. You should consider reading it rather than merely posting some belly achers negative review without having a clue.
56 posted on 05/12/2006 12:55:02 PM PDT by shuckmaster (An oak tree is an acorns way of making more acorns)
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To: PatrickHenry
But science isn't left or right, and there's nothing patriotic about ignorance.

There is now an' Satan's gonna gitchew, commie boy!

57 posted on 05/12/2006 12:55:27 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building; able to leap tall bullets at a single bound!)
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To: mlc9852

Evolution is no more "godless" than relativity.


58 posted on 05/12/2006 12:56:16 PM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: Junior

No, I want him to say "I am an atheist and I refuse to have students hear that creation may have been created by a Creator".


59 posted on 05/12/2006 12:56:26 PM PDT by mlc9852
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To: shuckmaster

Yeah, I'll rush right out and buy it. Can't wait to have an atheist tell me I am ignorant because I believe in God.


60 posted on 05/12/2006 12:57:13 PM PDT by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852

Okay. Show us the positive evidence that creation was created by a creator. Go ahead. We'll wait.


61 posted on 05/12/2006 12:57:18 PM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: mlc9852; Junior
In this case, Dr. Scott's agenda is crystal clear.

Yes! To keep the pseudo science crap out of the classrooms.

62 posted on 05/12/2006 12:57:41 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: Virginia-American
Refresh my memory, was it Darwin, Wallace, Huxley, Haeckel, or Martin Luther

Stay on subject. Hitler took evolution and applied it.

63 posted on 05/12/2006 12:58:30 PM PDT by aimhigh
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To: mlc9852

If evolution corrupts, then biology teachers should be absolutely corrupted. Let's compare the number of biology teachers who have been convicted of diddling children with the numbe of ministers convicted of diddling children.


64 posted on 05/12/2006 12:58:42 PM PDT by js1138
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To: visually_augmented
Is this author trying to say that we would not have medical nor agricultural science today if not for the theory of evolution?? That is a tough pill to swallow. Do you agree with that statement??

I believe what the author is saying is that medical or agricultural science would still be in the dark ages if not for the theory of evolution. That of course is the truth.

65 posted on 05/12/2006 12:58:46 PM PDT by shuckmaster (An oak tree is an acorns way of making more acorns)
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To: PatrickHenry

Yes, I always form MY opinions based on what the NYT and its columnists think. How 'bout you?


66 posted on 05/12/2006 12:59:06 PM PDT by Elpasser
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To: PatrickHenry
So evolution has some pretty exciting applications (like food), and I'm guessing most people would prefer antibiotics developed by someone who knows the evolutionary relationship of humans and bacteria.

A conclusion not supported by the facts.

Has nothing to do with the evolutionist's claims concerning common descent/universdal common descent. And it certainly says nothing about macro-evolution.

67 posted on 05/12/2006 1:01:47 PM PDT by connectthedots
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To: tomzz
Applications of evolution? I assume he mentioned naziism, communism, and eugenics programs?

I suppose that naziism, communism and eugenics are good examples of things that are not applications of evolution, but are commonly claimed to be by individuals who do not understand evolution.
68 posted on 05/12/2006 1:02:00 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Junior
Evolution is no more "godless" than relativity.

Well then, it's next on the hit list!

69 posted on 05/12/2006 1:02:14 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: PatrickHenry; betty boop
"I am driven to observe of the ultra-Darwinists the following features as symptomatic: first is their . . . almost unbelievable self-assurance, their breezy self-confidence. Second, and far more serious, are particular examples of sophistry and sleight of hand in the misuse of metaphor, and more importantly a distortion of metaphysics, in support of an evolutionary programme. Consider how ultra-Darwinists, having erected a naturalistic sytem that cannot by itself possess any ultimate purpose, still allow a sense of meaning mysteriously to slip back in. Thus, the philosopher of science John Greene remarks,

'Not all of the champions of the modern synthesis have been as open as [Julian] Huxley is in acknowledging the religious aspects of their devotion to evolutionary biology, but most of them, especially those who reject religious and philosophical approaches to the problem of human duty and destiny, manage to smuggle in by way of simile and metaphor the elements of meaning and value that their formal philosophy of nature and natural science excludes from consideration.'

"Despite this, such scientists have no foundation for their reaction agaisnt pointlessness other than the not unworthy and intuitive sense that the world should be built as it is; embedded in the Universe are not only neutrons but such edicts as, to echo Chesterton, 'Thou shalt not steal.'"

Simon Conway Morris, Life's Solution, pp. 314-315, (Cambridge University Press, 2003). Dr. Morris is professor of evolutionary biology at the University of Cambridge. A fellow of the Royal Society, his work on Cambrian soft-bodied faunas figured prominently in Stephen Jay Gould's Wonderful Life.

70 posted on 05/12/2006 1:02:22 PM PDT by JCEccles (Kitzmiller Syndrome: anger and paranoia that someone is harboring critical thoughts about Darwinism.)
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To: 2nsdammit
[ I thought Creationism was science? Now you're telling me that it's actually religion? ]

When "science" determines how humans were created(evolved)..
It is a religion.. Creationism covers a whole range of how that happened with different creators and mechanisms for that creation.. Even Peter Falk(Columbo) would have to close that case as unsolved.. and unsolvable..

It takes "faith" to believe in God or Evolution.. Heck it takes a measure faith to believe that you will get from point "A" to point "B" intact.. alive.. Many people have faith in people(scientists) or (clergy).. or even dogma..

Jesus came to make ALL religion obsolete, AND DID..
You gotta love him for that.. if only for that only..

He is and was what he said he was... and still IS.. -OR-
He is not or wasn't who he said he was, and still isn't..

Its really quite simple.. Its a choice..

71 posted on 05/12/2006 1:02:51 PM PDT by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: Junior; hosepipe
To put it succinctly, evolution sells commercial applications; religion sells hope.

Well I suppose you think the enjoyment of commercial applications in the here and now trumps eternal life. However, you may not always feel that way.

72 posted on 05/12/2006 1:03:29 PM PDT by betty boop (Death... is the separation from one another of two things, soul and body; nothing else.)
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To: PatrickHenry

Thanks for the ping...I just finished reading the entire article, and it was interesting...

I get the feeling that some folks think that coming up with new and better scientific innovations, which will create more wealth, is somehow a bad thing....creating wealth is a bad thing?...Why?

Forget the wealth part, what about the advantages that new and better scientific innovations, will, as this article states, improve society for all of us...applications in medicine alone will benefit all of us, whether now or in the future...I would not want to be living in a society, which practices medicine as it was practiced 50yrs ago, and am sad that I will not be around 50yrs from now, to see the benefits of research and innovation in medicine...but I sure want my children, and my future grandchildren, and so on down the line, to be able to benefit from research and innovation in the field of medicine..

And on to the matter of what students in other countries are learning, and how our students will fare, when in competition with them....I think this is quite an important issue...students from other countries eagerly come to the USA for their college educations, if they can get in to those college they have applied to...they are competing with American students all the time...will they return home better educated than our American students, whose own lack of credentials disallow them from entering those very same universities?...

When my son graduated from Cornell(yeah, I know, I am waiting for all the booers and hissers to appear), with his degree in Applied Physics Engineering, I was shocked to see the makeup of those receiving this particular degree..virtually everyone was either from a foreign country, or if they were Americans, they were almost all Asians, except for my own son, and one or two of his best friends...I had to ask myself, why was this...do Asians tend to concentrate more on math and sciences, and leave religion to the parents and their church?...I dont know, but am wondering...and women receiving this particular degree?...very, very few...I can only remember one or two ladies receiving this degree...why is this?...do we really think that the women cannot learn this discipline?...this was 10yrs ago, I would be interested to see the makeup of those earning this degree currently...

Whether we like it or not, more and more countries are providing excellent science education in their schools, and their students are taking advantage of it...they then come here for their university educations(as the USA still has the best universities), but they are returning home to their own countries, and putting what they have learned here, to advantage back home...

And no, I dont think that I am over-reacting...


73 posted on 05/12/2006 1:03:33 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: aimhigh
Hitler took evolution and applied it.

Evolution cannot be "applied". Evolution is the end-result of a population of organisms existing in a system where environmental conditions create advantages or disadvantages based upon heriditable traits. Blaming Hitler's actions on evolution only demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of what evolution is.
74 posted on 05/12/2006 1:04:06 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: js1138

>Perhaps we should compare the number of clergymen convicted
>of child molestation

The Bible advocates marriage for deacons and bishops. It's in the book of Timothy.

If preists were only ordained if they could get and stay married, the Catholic Church would not have a problem with homosexuals in the clergy.

Have a good day my fellow Freeper.


75 posted on 05/12/2006 1:04:12 PM PDT by ROTB
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To: Gritty
I'm embarrassed this man is from my state.

Are you one of the Dixie Chicks?

76 posted on 05/12/2006 1:04:12 PM PDT by shuckmaster (An oak tree is an acorns way of making more acorns)
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To: Junior
Show us the positive evidence that creation was created by a creator. Go ahead. We'll wait.

Just look out the window, you dolt! Look out the window! Look out the window!!!!!

77 posted on 05/12/2006 1:04:42 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: Elpasser

If I'm getting the point of your post, you're saying that you are now obligated to reject the theory of evolution, despite its enormous evidentiary support, because the NYT published an editorial defending its presence in science curricula. Is that about right?


78 posted on 05/12/2006 1:04:46 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: aimhigh

No. Hitler took Luther's dictates and applied them. Anti-Semitism and pogroms predate Darwin by literally centuries. Christians were preaching hatred against the Jews at least as early as the Second Century. The only innovation Hitler brought to the table was mechanization.


79 posted on 05/12/2006 1:05:38 PM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: visually_augmented
Is this author trying to say that we would not have medical nor agricultural science today if not for the theory of evolution??

Consider the resulting disasterous effect to the Soviet agricultural industry when Stalin outlawed the teaching of Darwinian evolution.
80 posted on 05/12/2006 1:05:56 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: mlc9852
Christians don't attempt to hide who they are.

You seem unaware of the "You can't call me a creationist" creationists who swear they aren't all that religious but don't like evolution because:

Sure.
81 posted on 05/12/2006 1:05:57 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building; able to leap tall bullets at a single bound!)
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To: lexfreedom
So next time ask a pro-homosexual agenda activist if they believe in evolution, why are they promoting behavior which is inconsistent with Darwin's postulates (natural selection and survival of the fittest). Homosexual behavior doesn't propagate the species, and therefore is illogical and inconsistent with good evolutionary theory.

You are appealing to an is-ought fallacy, and also demonstrating a lack of understanding of genetics.
82 posted on 05/12/2006 1:06:32 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Dimensio
Blaming Hitler's actions on evolution only demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of what evolution is.

Blame that on Hitler. He took the false doctrine, and said, "We'll survive and Jews won't."

There are no great medicines resulting from evolutionary theory. Every time there is a great discover, I always see the words, "Scientists were surprised to find...".

83 posted on 05/12/2006 1:06:34 PM PDT by aimhigh
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To: aimhigh
When the German armies conquired new towns, the first people killed were evangelical preachers.

Whether or not you admit that you just made that up, you really should consider how ignorant you're making yourself appear in a conservative public discussion forum.

84 posted on 05/12/2006 1:06:54 PM PDT by shuckmaster (An oak tree is an acorns way of making more acorns)
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To: shuckmaster

shuck: "I believe what the author is saying is that medical or agricultural science would still be in the dark ages if not for the theory of evolution. That of course is the truth."

This must be the same line of reasoning that got us to the doctrine of evolution in the first place.

Scientific method was founded long, long before the theory of evolution came to be widely accepted. The same is true of biological science. To say that biological sciences hinge on the concept of macro-evolution is perposterous.


85 posted on 05/12/2006 1:07:29 PM PDT by visually_augmented (I was blind, but now I see)
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To: hawkaw; JCEccles
If you are going to make such an accusation prove it.

I have observed that while JCEccles has made a number of negative assertions regarding the theory of evolution, he or she has provided evidence for absolutely none of them. I believe that JCEccles is a troll.
86 posted on 05/12/2006 1:07:44 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Virginia-American

I don't know. I forget; was BTK a biology teacher or a scout leader and regular churchgoer? Ideas do have consequences.


87 posted on 05/12/2006 1:07:49 PM PDT by js1138
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To: aimhigh; All
So, you can proudly claim NAZIism, which is a result of evolutionary doctrine.

Actually Hitler proclaimed to be Christian and and his form of Nazism was from his Christian beliefs. He just believed Jesus a Gentile and not a Jew.

88 posted on 05/12/2006 1:07:58 PM PDT by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: PatrickHenry
My favorite example of money making using evolution is prospecting for oil.

Society of Economic Paleontologists and Mineralogists

The essay at the above link has a great description of the transition between reptiles and mammals.

If nonstandard geology or biology were true, one could them to find more oil than the deluded followers of uniformatism and Darwinism can.

Hint: I'm not investing in a creationist oil prospecting company. Neither is Shell, Exxon, BP, etc.

Glenn Morton is a famous example of a YECer who saw the light.

89 posted on 05/12/2006 1:08:35 PM PDT by Virginia-American
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To: onedoug
Then there's always reproduction, which couldn't have evolved since it had to work from the beginning.

Correct. Evolution is the result of reproduction occuring. The means by which reproducing (or, as some call it, imperfectly replicating) entites came to exist in the first place is not addressed by the theory of evolution.
90 posted on 05/12/2006 1:08:41 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: PatrickHenry

This is really silly and tiresome. Does anyone seriously believe that we creationists don't understand and appreciate genetics and adaptability of organisms? The fact that organisms are adaptable does not prove evolutionary descent.

Indeed, it was my rigorous education in organic chemistry and biological science that made me realize that life simply cannot organize itself. It's just foolish to imagine that something as complex and vulnerable as a DNA spiral can self organize, protect itself from the elements without any reason for doing so, and then reproduce itself. Experiments to replicate this, even under the most optimistic conditions, all failed and were largely abandoned in the 1990's.

Evolutionists seem so desperate to deny creationists and ID'ers a forum and to debate the science. It is a dead giveaway about whose "science" is really the house of cards.


91 posted on 05/12/2006 1:09:35 PM PDT by Elpasser
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To: Junior

Exactly what proof would convince you? Those who refuse to believe in God aren't going to be convinced by me. Of course you aren't going to convince me humans descended from ape-like creatures either.


92 posted on 05/12/2006 1:09:53 PM PDT by mlc9852
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To: PatrickHenry
one Web site that lists companies looking for workers in biotechnology has more than 600 hiring scientists in California and more than 240 in Massachusetts. Kansas has 11.

There are three kinds of escalating lies: Ordinary lies; damn lies; and, statistics. This is the latter.

To trot out such a lame statistic serves only to discredit the author.

How many companies were hiring scientists prior to the state of Kansas making their minor change in curriculum?

93 posted on 05/12/2006 1:10:31 PM PDT by connectthedots
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To: RadioAstronomer

Sorry - it's already in the classrooms. And you know what - people still believe in God as the creator. Too bad you don't.


94 posted on 05/12/2006 1:10:39 PM PDT by mlc9852
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To: Virginia-American
Refresh my memory, was it Darwin, Wallace, Huxley, Haeckel, or Martin Luther who wrote an influential essay On the Jews and their Lies

Easy! Everyone knows the answer to that question! It was the guy who started the protestant religion.

95 posted on 05/12/2006 1:10:40 PM PDT by shuckmaster (An oak tree is an acorns way of making more acorns)
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To: mlc9852
Christians don't attempt to hide who they are.

Dr. Scott attempted to hide who he is?


96 posted on 05/12/2006 1:10:44 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: betty boop
However, the Hindus may be right after all, and I get to go through all this crap again.

There is no empirical data that suggests the Christian version of the afterlife, or indeed any particular version of the afterlife (or even the existence of an afterlife) is true. Therefore, your off-the-cuff "you'll see" really has absolutely no more effect than breaking wind in a hurricane.

97 posted on 05/12/2006 1:10:45 PM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: Dimensio; Right Wing Professor; VadeRetro; CarolinaGuitarman

See #70. One of evolution science's brightest stars has called out the knuckeheaded Darwinists on their faith claims and religious fervor. He serves it up better than I could, so feast up.


98 posted on 05/12/2006 1:10:51 PM PDT by JCEccles (Kitzmiller Syndrome: anger and paranoia that someone is harboring critical thoughts about Darwinism.)
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To: Dimensio; Right Wing Professor; VadeRetro; CarolinaGuitarman

See #70. One of evolution science's brightest stars has called out the knuckeheaded Darwinists on their faith claims and religious fervor. He serves it up better than I could, so feast up.


99 posted on 05/12/2006 1:10:51 PM PDT by JCEccles (Kitzmiller Syndrome: anger and paranoia that someone is harboring critical thoughts about Darwinism.)
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To: visually_augmented; aimhigh; mlc9852
What they conveniently fail to mention is that Eugenie Scott is a self-professed atheist.

Self-professed? What other kind of atheist is there? Or Christian for that matter.

100 posted on 05/12/2006 1:11:20 PM PDT by Virginia-American
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