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Conclusions From Uncounted Creation/Evolution Debates
PatrickHenry | 10 June 2006 | PatrickHenry (vanity)

Posted on 06/10/2006 4:33:28 PM PDT by PatrickHenry

Gentle FReepers, herewith I present a few conclusions I have reached after uncounted creation/evolution debates:

1. Creationism is a religious doctrine. This is not, as many claim, the arbitrary result of ACLU-inspired Supreme Court decisions like Epperson v. Arkansas, and Edwards v. Aguillard. Rather, those court decisions are inevitable, given the faith-based nature of creationism.

Is creationism really faith-based? Of course it is. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's nothing scientific about it either. Imagine a competent scientist from Japan or India or some other place where no one studied the creation account in Genesis (or its Islamic counterpart). If he were to honestly and systematically consider the objectively verifiable evidence in reaching scientific conclusions, then:

a. it would never occur to him that the world is only 6,000 years old [How Old is the Earth];

b. it would never occur to him that there had been a miles-deep global flood about 3,000 years ago [The Geologic Column and its Implications for the Flood];

c. it would never occur to him that all species lived at the same time [The Fossil Record: Evolution or "Scientific Creation"]; and

d. he would inevitably conclude that all species are related by common descent, and that the relationships are becoming more clear all the time [Tree of Life Web Project ].

2. Regardless of the claims of some, creationism isn't the same thing as Christianity. Why do we say this?

a. First, because not all Christians are creationists, and therefore -- obviously -- creationism isn't essential to their conception of Christianity. We are very much aware that some denominations teach otherwise, and this essay isn't intended to be a debate among denominations. Further, this essay doesn't pretend to be a learned discourse about theology. It is unfortunate that we have a denominational (not scientific) dispute about evolution, but it exists.

In stating that creationism isn't essential, we are relying entirely on the statements of thousands of Christian clergy, e.g., The Clergy Letter Project, a strong, pro-evolution statement signed by over 10,000 Christian clergymen; Statements from Religious Organizations, a list of Christian and Jewish denominations, including Roman Catholics, that accept (or at least don't dispute) evolution; and the recent statement opposing creationism by the Archbishop of Canterbury, leader of the 70-million-member Anglican Communion.

Clergymen are usually not scientists; therefore their opinions (whether pro or con) have no special significance regarding the scientific validity of evolution. What the above-referenced opinions do indicate is that for all of these clergymen and their denominations, evolution is compatible with their religion.

b. Second, because not all creationists are Christians. To begin with, there are the Raelians, a sect based entirely on ID.

There are also a billion followers Islam. See: Why Muslims Should Support Intelligent Design, By Mustafa Akyol.

The Hare Krishnas also reject Darwinian evolution. Their website has this article: The Intelligent Designer.

There is also the Unification Church, founded by Rev. Sun Myung Moon. One of Moon's followers, Jonathan Wells, is a leading intellectual in the ID movement. He is the author of Icons of Evolution, and is a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute. Wells has written movingly about how Rev. Moon motivated his career in ID: Darwinism: Why I Went for a Second Ph.D.

2. Intelligent Design (ID) is not science. This is quoted from the Dover decision:

[After a page of references to expert testimony] It is therefore readily apparent to the Court that ID fails to meet the essential ground rules that limit science to testable, natural explanations. (3:101-03 (Miller); 14:62 (Alters)). Science cannot be defined differently for Dover students than it is defined in the scientific community as an affirmative action program, as advocated by Professor Fuller, for a view that has been unable to gain a foothold within the scientific establishment. Although ID's failure to meet the ground rules of science is sufficient for the Court to conclude that it is not science, out of an abundance of caution and in the exercise of completeness, we will analyze additional arguments advanced regarding the concepts of ID and science.

[snip]

The evidence presented in this case demonstrates that ID is not supported by any peer-reviewed research, data or publications. Both Drs. Padian and Forrest testified that recent literature reviews of scientific and medical-electronic databases disclosed no studies supporting a biological concept of ID. (17:42-43 (Padian); 11:32-33 (Forrest)). On cross-examination, Professor Behe admitted that: "There are no peer reviewed articles by anyone advocating for intelligent design supported by pertinent experiments or calculations which provide detailed rigorous accounts of how intelligent design of any biological system occurred." (22:22-23 (Behe)). Additionally, Professor Behe conceded that there are no peer-reviewed papers supporting his claims that complex molecular systems, like the bacterial flagellum, the blood-clotting cascade, and the immune system, were intelligently designed. (21:61-62 (complex molecular systems), 23:4-5 (immune system), and 22:124-25 (blood-clotting cascade) (Behe)). In that regard, there are no peer-reviewed articles supporting Professor Behe's argument that certain complex molecular structures are "irreducibly complex."17 (21:62, 22:124-25 (Behe)). In addition to failing to produce papers in peer-reviewed journals, ID also features no scientific research or testing. (28:114-15 (Fuller); 18:22-23, 105-06 (Behe)).

After this searching and careful review of ID as espoused by its proponents, as elaborated upon in submissions to the Court, and as scrutinized over a six week trial, we find that ID is not science and cannot be adjudged a valid, accepted scientific theory as it has failed to publish in peer-reviewed journals, engage in research and testing, and gain acceptance in the scientific community. ID, as noted, is grounded in theology, not science. Accepting for the sake of argument its proponents', as well as Defendants' argument that to introduce ID to students will encourage critical thinking, it still has utterly no place in a science curriculum. Moreover, ID's backers have sought to a void the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID. To conclude and reiterate, we express no opinion on the ultimate veracity of ID as a supernatural explanation. However, we commend to the attention of those who are inclined to superficially consider ID to be a true "scientific" alternative to evolution without a true understanding of the concept the foregoing detailed analysis. It is our view that a reasonable, objective observer would, after reviewing both the voluminous record in this case, and our narrative, reach the inescapable conclusion that ID is an interesting theological argument, but that it is not science.

Source: Kitzmiller et al. v Dover Area School District et al.

3. ID is creationism. Consider the ID text, Of Pandas and People, which is favorably regarded by ID advocates such as the Discovery Institute, as indicated by their link to this article: A Report on the ASA Conference Debate on Pandas and People Textbook. This is the book that the Dover school board recommended and made available to science students, with these results:

As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court, Pandas went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior to and some after the Supreme Court's decision in Edwards [Edwards v. Aguillard], which held that the Constitution forbids teaching creationism as science. By comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing points emerge:

(1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID;

(2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and

(3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards.

This word substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected without any corresponding change in content, which directly refutes FTE's [FTE = the Foundation for Thought and Ethics, the publisher of Pandas] argument that by merely disregarding the words "creation" and "creationism," FTE expressly rejected creationism in Pandas. In early pre-Edwards drafts of Pandas, the term "creation" was defined as "various forms of life that began abruptly through an intelligent agency with their distinctive features intact -- fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc," the very same way in which ID is defined in the subsequent published versions.

Source: Kitzmiller et al. v Dover Area School District et al..

4. There is no virtually dispute about evolution in scientific circles. Therefore there is no "controversy" that needs to be taught in science classes.

As Project Steve indicates, over 700 scientists named Steve (or Stephanie, Esteban, or Stefano, etc.), about two-thirds of whom are biologists, have signed on to a statement that says:

Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to 'intelligent design,' to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools.

These Steves are only the tip of the scientific iceberg, because the name "Steve" is given to only about 1% of the population. Therefore, the 700 Steves probably represent about 70,000 scientists. See also Project Steve update.

The Steves alone are greater in number than all the scientists (of every name) who have signed statements questioning evolution, and most of the evolution skeptics aren't biologists. For example, the much-publicized list of 500 names (compared to 70,000) collected by the Discovery Institute includes only about 154 biologists, less than one-third of the total. Those 500 signed a rather ambiguous statement, which says:

We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.

[Note what a hollow statement that is, compared to the statement signed by the Steves; and also note what the hollow statement doesn't say: It doesn't say that those who sign it are creationists or advocates of ID (although some probably are). It doesn't even say that they reject evolution (although some probably do). It merely says they're "skeptical," presumably a term chosen to permit as many as possible to sign.]

In contrast, two-thirds of the 700 Steves are biologists, so the biologist-Steves are about 466 in number. The Steves being about 1% of the population represent approximately 46,600 biologists. Compare that number to the 154 biologists' names collected by the Discovery Institute. Those 154 are the totality of biologists who are evolution skeptics. Did you get that? The actual comparison is 46,600 biologists who accept evolution and a mere 154 who are "skeptical."

These competing lists clearly tell us that evolution skeptics are a tiny fringe group -- about one-third of one percent of biologists. Therefore, notwithstanding the unending demands to "teach the controversy," there literally is no scientific controversy about the basic principles of evolution. Scientists, especially those in the biological fields, are all but unanimous in their acceptance of evolution.

For more information, see The List-O-Links.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: crevo; crevolist; dieandfindout; pavlovian; pseudologic
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Would it be inappropriate if I said: "Everyone be nice"?
1 posted on 06/10/2006 4:33:33 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: VadeRetro; Junior; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Doctor Stochastic; js1138; Shryke; RightWhale; ...
Evolution Ping

The List-O-Links
A conservative, pro-evolution science list, now with over 370 names.
See the list's explanation, then FReepmail to be added or dropped.
To assist beginners: But it's "just a theory", Evo-Troll's Toolkit,
and How to argue against a scientific theory.

2 posted on 06/10/2006 4:34:39 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: PatrickHenry

I believe a combination of both.


3 posted on 06/10/2006 4:38:04 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Never a minigun handy when you need one.)
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To: PatrickHenry
As we have seen on another thread:

You are overstating the obvious.

And that is, at best, barely sufficient.

And, yes, we need to all be nice just in case we get moved to the Religion Forum.

4 posted on 06/10/2006 4:47:55 PM PDT by balrog666 (There is no freedom like knowledge, no slavery like ignorance. - Ali ibn Ali-Talib)
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To: PatrickHenry
Would it be inappropriate if I said: "Everyone be nice"?

I say that often. Sometimes it helps :-).

Have a good weekend!

5 posted on 06/10/2006 4:53:29 PM PDT by Tax-chick (I am a daughter of God, a child of the King, a holy fire burning with His love.)
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To: PatrickHenry
I like your second 2. better than your first 2.

Good post though. Should carry us through the rest of the weekend anyway.

6 posted on 06/10/2006 4:53:49 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death--Heinlein)
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To: PatrickHenry

Creationism is a religious doctrine.

That's a pretty stout limb you wandered onto :). Your other points are spot on as well.

7 posted on 06/10/2006 4:54:30 PM PDT by ml1954 (NOT the BANNED disruptive troll who was seen frequently on CREVO threads.)
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To: balrog666
You are overstating the obvious.

Yeah, but I wanted to get it all in one place. Doesn't matter how active the thread gets. It's more of an archive of information than a debate.

8 posted on 06/10/2006 4:55:00 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: All

I've been informed that the second and third of my major points are each number 2. I'll try to get by the embarrassment.


9 posted on 06/10/2006 4:59:37 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: cripplecreek

"I believe a combination of both."

Me too. It didn't happen in seven days. Sorry. Not beleiving in the seven day theory doesn't mean I'm going to hell. It just means that my God is such a good scientist that none of the authors of the bible could possibly comprehend the message they were trying to write. I skip over the things man tried to wrongly comprehend though and say, if there is no God, where the heck did it come from? I have no problem with a Big Bang theory, especially since the way the bible explains it, the Big Bang would have been a colossal Bang that had about 5 billion years all wrapped into seven days. But, what happened a couple of days before the big bang? Everything was null and void, and without form? Ok, what was it made of? Who made that? I can beleive in God without beleiving that the people who interpreted the the bible knew what the heck God was giving them. No, "God did it" doesn't work for me. I beleive God did it, but I want to know how. And to do that, I use the scientific method. Which gives us just about every piece of technology we have today.


11 posted on 06/10/2006 5:02:31 PM PDT by SaveUS
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To: PatrickHenry
Those 154 are the totality of biologists who are evolution skeptics. Did you get that? The actual comparison is 46,600 biologists who accept evolution and a mere 154 who are "skeptical."

A lot of this bears repeating, but this part in particular.

12 posted on 06/10/2006 5:03:05 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Bipartisanship is when the Stupid Party and the Evil Party agree to do something that is both stupid)
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To: aequoanimo
Darwinism is a cult based on faith and belief.

Yes, like Newtonism and Pastuerism and other studies that rely on a theorerical underpinning.

I mean, everything is a belief and all beliefs are equal, right?

13 posted on 06/10/2006 5:05:27 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Bipartisanship is when the Stupid Party and the Evil Party agree to do something that is both stupid)
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To: PatrickHenry
The actual comparison is 46,600 biologists who accept evolution and a mere 154 who are "skeptical."

But you have no proof, monkey-boy! </Luddite_mode>

(Thank God for the SBR!)

14 posted on 06/10/2006 5:06:03 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building; able to leap tall bullets at a single bound!)
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To: PatrickHenry
Well said.

However I would like to see the very mistaken claim that Darwinism (whatever that happens to be) is separate from the science of evolution and is nothing more than a religion, addressed.

Although the many who describe Darwinism as a religion attempt to separate this imaginary philosophical position from the sciences it is quite apparent that they have a decidedly anti-science lean. It would be helpful to enumerate the many tactics used in the attempts to divorce the (many) evolutionary sciences which contribute to the SToE from 'True(TM)' science.

15 posted on 06/10/2006 5:07:10 PM PDT by b_sharp
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To: PatrickHenry
I've been informed that the second and third of my major points are each number 2. I'll try to get by the embarrassment.

People with dyscountia should use the <ol> HTML feature.

16 posted on 06/10/2006 5:08:03 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building; able to leap tall bullets at a single bound!)
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To: SaveUS

The big bang is a good place to start. There was a formless void and then there was light.


17 posted on 06/10/2006 5:11:10 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Never a minigun handy when you need one.)
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To: VadeRetro
Thank God for the SBR!

In a fit of weekend caprice, this thread may get moved to breaking news.

18 posted on 06/10/2006 5:11:28 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: b_sharp
Although the many who describe Darwinism as a religion attempt to separate this imaginary philosophical position from the sciences it is quite apparent that they have a decidedly anti-science lean.

If evolution is a religion, what are geology, biology, zoology and all the other sciences? Denominations?

No wonder inter-departmental battles are so nasty!

19 posted on 06/10/2006 5:11:31 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death--Heinlein)
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To: b_sharp
It would be helpful to enumerate the many tactics used in the attempts to divorce the (many) evolutionary sciences which contribute to the SToE from 'True(TM)' science.

I guess that's a good topic for another vanity thread.

20 posted on 06/10/2006 5:13:54 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: PatrickHenry
My money (all 23 dollars and 44 cents of it) is on Religion.
21 posted on 06/10/2006 5:19:04 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building; able to leap tall bullets at a single bound!)
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To: VadeRetro
My money (all 23 dollars and 44 cents of it) is on Religion.

Won't help. They've quit selling indulgences.

22 posted on 06/10/2006 5:22:55 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Shouldn't people that are members of the Discovery Institute, senior or otherwise, be referred to as just plain old "fellers", instead of "Fellows"?

That seems more appropriate. I mean, we are talking about the Discovery Institue.

23 posted on 06/10/2006 5:23:15 PM PDT by Deadshot Drifter
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To: PatrickHenry

belief in/ acceptance of evolution is of far less import to a rational or scientific worldview than the bloviators on these threads purvey. In fact, the major effort made by the evolutionists on these threads is to attempt to inflict collateral damage on adherents of conservative Christian doctrine, whom they consider to be their social abd intellectual inferiors.


24 posted on 06/10/2006 5:24:59 PM PDT by gusopol3
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To: Deadshot Drifter
I mean, we are talking about the Discovery Institute.

Considering all that they've discovered, I'd call them "hacks."

25 posted on 06/10/2006 5:25:59 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: VadeRetro; PatrickHenry

My money (all 23 dollars and 44 cents of it) is on Religion.

If PH had mentioned a certain recently released book, it's my understanding it could have been posted there.

26 posted on 06/10/2006 5:26:50 PM PDT by ml1954 (NOT the BANNED disruptive troll who was seen frequently on CREVO threads.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Crap! And I've already heard "good works" don't work.
27 posted on 06/10/2006 5:29:33 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building; able to leap tall bullets at a single bound!)
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To: Coyoteman
" If evolution is a religion, what are geology, biology, zoology and all the other sciences? Denominations?"

"No wonder inter-departmental battles are so nasty!"

Of course, what with arguments about the true use of 'dirt' pervading the discourse.

28 posted on 06/10/2006 5:29:42 PM PDT by b_sharp
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To: gusopol3
In fact, the major effort made by the evolutionists on these threads is to attempt to inflict collateral damage on adherents of conservative Christian doctrine, whom they consider to be their social abd intellectual inferiors.

Not so. The article goes into some detail to explain that creationism isn't an essential element of Christianity -- at least that's the opinion of most Christians. I have no interest in participating in a denominational squabble with those who think that their particular denomination is the only correct one. That's for the religion forum.

29 posted on 06/10/2006 5:31:38 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: VadeRetro
And I've already heard "good works" don't work.

You're in a heap o' trouble, boy!

30 posted on 06/10/2006 5:33:47 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: PatrickHenry
"I guess that's a good topic for another vanity thread."

Or we could just each have a hack at it here.

I'll start.

Although anti-evolutionists have a tendency to use 'argument by dictionary' for many of those debates where they lack sufficient science based evidence to back their misguided claims, when it comes to excluding evolution from science they frequently break with their AoD tradition and re-define science so that evolution is not a science 'by definition'.

This is an incredibly weak argument, quite transparent to anyone willing to think beyond their 'feelings', which requires an absolutist attitude combined with an unfailing arrogance and faith in their own inerrancy.

31 posted on 06/10/2006 5:42:31 PM PDT by b_sharp (There is always one more mess to clean up.)
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To: PatrickHenry
You're in a heap o' trouble, boy!

Deputy Sheriff said to me
"Tell me what you come here for, boy!
You better get your bags and flee!
You're in trouble boy and now you're headin' into more!"

It's the same ol' storeeeeeeee
Everywhere I go-oh!
I get slandered! Libeled!
I hear words I never heard in the Bible...

---- Paul Simon

32 posted on 06/10/2006 5:43:58 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building; able to leap tall bullets at a single bound!)
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To: b_sharp
This is an incredibly weak argument, quite transparent to anyone willing to think beyond their 'feelings', which requires an absolutist attitude combined with an unfailing arrogance and faith in their own inerrancy.

They're doing apologetics rather than science.

33 posted on 06/10/2006 5:44:53 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death--Heinlein)
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To: PatrickHenry

More likely, your second and third points were each of such great importance that they both had to be listed as #2.


34 posted on 06/10/2006 5:46:06 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: freedumb2003
I mean, everything is a belief and all beliefs are equal, right?

Some beliefs are more equal than others.

Well, successful that is.

The proof is in the pudding. A 2,000 year old nomadic ethical system is no match for the beliefs (science) that put men on the moon, cure disease, and feed the hungry.

36 posted on 06/10/2006 5:48:04 PM PDT by mc6809e
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To: Coyoteman
If evolution is a religion, what are geology, biology, zoology and all the other sciences? Denominations?

No wonder inter-departmental battles are so nasty!

There might be some truth to that. Inter-departmental politics at the University of Minnesota made West Side Story look like Cats.

37 posted on 06/10/2006 5:49:29 PM PDT by Zeroisanumber
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To: aequoanimo
Yes, everything is a belief even wrong beliefs like evolution.

Why is evolution "wrong"? Please be specific.
38 posted on 06/10/2006 5:51:22 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: PatrickHenry
Creationist beliefs of the world
39 posted on 06/10/2006 5:53:57 PM PDT by sully777 (wWBBD: What would Brian Boitano do?)
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To: aequoanimo
**Yes, like Newtonism and Pastuerism and other studies that rely on a theorerical underpinning.**

No, not like Newtonism and Pastuerism.

Why not? They (Gravity and Chemistry) rely on events unseen and are built on a theoretical foundation.

**I mean, everything is a belief and all beliefs are equal, right?**

Yes, everything is a belief even wrong beliefs like evolution. And, NO, not all beliefs are equal. Absolutes have no equals.

If you "believe" in Gravity you must "believe" in Evolution. To do otherwise is intellectually bankrupt.

40 posted on 06/10/2006 5:57:41 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Bipartisanship is when the Stupid Party and the Evil Party agree to do something that is both stupid)
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To: PatrickHenry

so it would be fair to infer that the reason you post here rather than on Democratic Underground, where you would have virtually no representative of the other side, is that you seek to drive a wedge between Bible believing Christians, whose outlook is conservative, and liberal Christians, whose doctrine is more "acceptable" to you.


41 posted on 06/10/2006 5:58:23 PM PDT by gusopol3
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Tagline. Tagline. Tagline.
42 posted on 06/10/2006 6:04:01 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: gusopol3
"belief in/ acceptance of evolution is of far less import to a rational or scientific worldview than the bloviators on these threads purvey. In fact, the major effort made by the evolutionists on these threads is to attempt to inflict collateral damage on adherents of conservative Christian doctrine, whom they consider to be their social abd intellectual inferiors."

Your goggles are giving you a much distorted view of what proponents of evolution think of religions in general. Whether anti-evolutionists are Christian(conservative or otherwise) or not is irrelevant. What is of concern is the attempts of an activist sect of religion (primarily Christian) attempting to redefine science and methodological naturalism into a system useless to anyone but theological extremists.

As has been shown historically and currently, science is most effective if the methods used are separate from the belief system of the scientist. Any change in this will reduce the Western world to a scientific third world culture.

Practice your religion in your homes and in your churches. Teach your children your beliefs. Support Christian charities and fulfill your heartfelt Christian duties. Communicate your beliefs to others on the streets, in the malls and at work.

Don't mess with that aspect of western culture that has produced the wealth and technology (including military) that has given Western countries the edge.

BTW, no proponent of evolution considers Christians (as a group) to be inferior in intellect. There are *some* anti-evolutionists who refuse to examine the evidence placed in front of them that when it comes to their blind adherence to a rigid interpretation of their religious text(s) are considered somewhat irrational.

43 posted on 06/10/2006 6:04:32 PM PDT by b_sharp (There is always one more mess to clean up.)
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To: Coyoteman
"They're doing apologetics rather than science."

They haven't apologized to me yet for their tactics.
(See, I can do equivocation too)

44 posted on 06/10/2006 6:08:09 PM PDT by b_sharp (There is always one more mess to clean up.)
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To: gusopol3
In fact, the major effort made by the evolutionists on these threads is to attempt to inflict collateral damage on adherents of conservative Christian doctrine, whom they consider to be their social abd intellectual inferiors.

Assumes facts not in evidence. But it is interesting that the CRIDers are the ones who make assumptions, starting with the VERY INCORRECT assumption that those who understand TToE are NOT Christian.

45 posted on 06/10/2006 6:11:17 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Bipartisanship is when the Stupid Party and the Evil Party agree to do something that is both stupid)
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To: Coyoteman
I like your second 2. better than your first 2.

I suppose you evo-scientist are now going to tell us how many 2s we can have.

46 posted on 06/10/2006 6:18:19 PM PDT by Gumlegs (This is a deadpan post.)
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To: b_sharp

"Ladies and Gentlemen, this evening it is my modest intention to tell you in the short time we have together . . . everything you will ever need to know about the human beast.

I take that term, the human beast, from my idol, Emile Zola, who published a novel entitled The Human Beast in 1888, just 29 years after Darwin's The Origin of Species broke the stunning news that Homo sapiens--or Homo loquax, as I call him--was not created by God in his own image but was precisely that, a beast, not different in any essential way from snakes with fangs or orangutangs . . . or kangaroos. . . or the fang-proof mongoose. Darwin's doctrine, Evolution, leapt from the pages of a scientific monograph into every level of society in Europe and America with sensational suddenness. It created a sheerly dividing line between the God-fearing bourgeoisie who were appalled, and those people of sweetness and light whose business it was to look down at the bourgeosie from a great height."

From Tom Wolfe's lecture @ http://www.neh.gov/whoweare/wolfe/lecture.html

I'm not sure whether he's wearing the same goggles I am or not; I guess you'll know.


47 posted on 06/10/2006 6:18:23 PM PDT by gusopol3
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To: PatrickHenry; VadeRetro
Vade: And I've already heard "good works" don't work.

PH: You're in a heap o' trouble, boy!

He's in trouble no matter which way it is.

48 posted on 06/10/2006 6:23:27 PM PDT by Gumlegs (This is a deadpan post.)
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To: Gumlegs; Coyoteman
I suppose you evo-scientist are now going to tell us how many 2s we can have.

Somehow this reminds me of Pierre the bridge builder.

49 posted on 06/10/2006 6:23:51 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: gusopol3
"so it would be fair to infer that the reason you post here rather than on Democratic Underground, where you would have virtually no representative of the other side, is that you seek to drive a wedge between Bible believing Christians, whose outlook is conservative, and liberal Christians, whose doctrine is more "acceptable" to you."

Interesting how the definitions of 'Christian' change according to intent. On one hand we have many anti-evolutionists claiming that only literalists who believe in a 6000 year old Earth, the Noachian flood, the Tower of Babel and the spontaneous generation of all life on Earth can be considered true 'Christians'. On the other hand we have those same anti-evolutionists claiming that evolution is against all 'Christians', whether those Christians accept evolution or not. And now on the gripping hand we have a division between 'Liberal' Christians and 'Conservative' Christians. (Since when does political affiliation change the definition of Christian)

Come on, get your story straight. Does the word Christian describe only those that have faith in a literal interpretation of Genesis, or does it include all who accept Christ into their lives?

If you guys can't get it straight, how are we to know who we are supposed to be against?

50 posted on 06/10/2006 6:23:52 PM PDT by b_sharp (There is always one more mess to clean up.)
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