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"War is all hell"
NavySEALs.com ^ | September 1, 2006 | W. Thomas Smith Jr.

Posted on 09/01/2006 2:25:37 PM PDT by SuzyQ2

The idea of digging-in disgusted Patton. A victorious army, in his mind, was always on offense, never on defense. It was one of the myriad reasons Patton was such a successful combat commander. It didn’t always make him popular with his subordinates and peers, and he frequently caught hell from the media, but the man knew how to fight and win wars. He was neither a ticket puncher nor a politician. He would have scoffed at modern political correctness. And his only objective was always the combination of a decisive defeat of the enemy and the utter annihilation of his forces. All other matters were secondary.

(Excerpt) Read more at navyseals.com ...


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: army; forces; infantry; navy; nimitz; patton; seal; sherman; special; vietnam; war; warishell
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1 posted on 09/01/2006 2:25:40 PM PDT by SuzyQ2
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To: SuzyQ2

And his only objective was always the combination of a decisive defeat of the enemy and the utter annihilation of his forces. All other matters were secondary.



We need a few more like that today...


2 posted on 09/01/2006 2:27:22 PM PDT by SE Mom (Proud mom of an Iraq war combat vet-prayers for the kidnapped Israeli Soldiers)
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To: SE Mom

Agree.
I think they are out there. But the current political climate does not allow them to surface.


3 posted on 09/01/2006 2:31:02 PM PDT by SuzyQ2
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To: SuzyQ2

Clearing a city is one thing, and many would say the glamorous job. Holding a city and winning the hearts and minds of the city's inhabitants is something else again. How was Patton at holding cities once his tanks took them?


4 posted on 09/01/2006 2:31:06 PM PDT by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker! (Charlie Mike, son))
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To: SuzyQ2; zgirl; dixie1202; righthand man; TexConfederate1861; chesley; rustbucket; JamesP81; ...
Where are the likes of Confederate Generals Stonewall Jackson, J.E.B. Stuart, or Nathan Bedford Forrest?

Bump

5 posted on 09/01/2006 2:31:13 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: SE Mom
We need a few more like that today...

for sure... the closest we had was Stormin' Norman but he's out of it.

But then, the white house needs to stop trying to micromanage the war from washington and let the military do its job.
6 posted on 09/01/2006 2:32:31 PM PDT by Silicon Cowboy
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To: SuzyQ2

It's true that audacity in warfare can bring victories -- but it can also lead to some exploitable weaknesses in certain situations -- such as outrunning your supply lines and then being counter-attacked.


7 posted on 09/01/2006 2:33:10 PM PDT by Dracian
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To: stainlessbanner
we could sure use "'ole Nate Forrest","Col Quantrell" or "Joe Wheeler" in Baghdad!

free dixie,sw

8 posted on 09/01/2006 2:35:53 PM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: Dracian

Patton had a lot of experience in out running supply lines.


9 posted on 09/01/2006 2:37:28 PM PDT by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker! (Charlie Mike, son))
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To: stainlessbanner

"Where are the likes of Confederate Generals Stonewall Jackson, J.E.B. Stuart, or Nathan Bedford Forrest?"

Yeah. Today we see more sissies than one could ever imagine. And those "sissies" usually find their way to the top brass, only to prevent others from being brave when the situation calls for it. Or, they trump up charges because the bravery of another outshines their sissy little self...


10 posted on 09/01/2006 2:39:52 PM PDT by Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin
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To: stainlessbanner

Heck, Southron as I am, I'll even give Bill "The Arsonist" Sherman his due in that regard. Not as great a tactical leader as many of the Confederate generals, but he didn't have to be. He had crushing superiority on his side and he had zero qualms about using it. You can say a lot of things about Sherman, but you surely can never accuse him of fighting with one hand tied behind his back.

The author references Chester Nimitz...I'll drag out another name. William "Bull" Halsey. A man whose motto was "Kill Japs, kill Japs, kill more Japs." You think a Halsey could survive in today's military?

What liberals fail to realize is that the best way to save civilian lives in a war is to end it QUICKLY. By the application of overwhelming, destructive, crushing force as needed, and yes, that includes against civilians. Civilians are going to die in war. That's been so for five thousand years and it will always be so. That doesn't mean we go out and target them (like, say, Hezbollah does?) but we cannot let civilian casualties stand in the way of victory. If we do, we only guarantee more civilian casualties down the road...theirs *and* ours.

}:-)4


11 posted on 09/01/2006 2:43:26 PM PDT by Moose4 (Dirka dirka Mohammed jihad.)
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To: stand watie
we could sure use "'ole Nate Forrest","Col Quantrell" or "Joe Wheeler" in Baghdad!

Why Quantrill? You have a city full of innocent civilians you want sacked?

12 posted on 09/01/2006 2:46:10 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: bnelson44; SuzyQ2
How was Patton at holding cities once his tanks took them?

How would Patton have fought an army consisting entirely of hidden kamikazis?

We won the "Patton Stage" of the war in Iraq. This is reconstruction in a seething cauldron, and the people there have nothing to show for their lives other than spilling blood.

13 posted on 09/01/2006 2:46:27 PM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: ExtremeUnction

pinggg


14 posted on 09/01/2006 2:48:40 PM PDT by Silicon Cowboy
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To: Non-Sequitur
here we go again.

WHO in "Sadr City" do YOU believe is INNOCENT?? even CBS NEWS (NO friend of "W" or of the USA for that matter!) describes it as "a den of thieves & violent criminals".

in point of fact, i'd like to raise "CPT Bill Anderson" from his grave & send him into that hellhole. i'd bet his "merry band" would sort things out fairly soon.

free dixie,sw

15 posted on 09/01/2006 2:51:38 PM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: Moose4; Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin; stand watie

Reading Omar Bradley's book now. Patton and Ike references are interesting. I also have an appreciation for the complexity in managing a multi-national force. Amazing stuff.


16 posted on 09/01/2006 2:53:24 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Non-Sequitur
C'mon Non - we can go one for one all day long.

Did you even read the article?

17 posted on 09/01/2006 2:54:32 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: stainlessbanner
that is a GOOD book. i read it some time ago & was IMPRESSED!

as for N-S, he cannot resist defending the INDEFENSIBLE criminals who were justly punished by the cavalry raid on Lawrence.

free dixie,sw

18 posted on 09/01/2006 2:59:07 PM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: stainlessbanner
Did you even read the article?

I did, actually.

19 posted on 09/01/2006 2:59:33 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur; Moose4
< snip >"when committed to it, we must fight to defeat the enemy as quickly, violently, and decisively as possible. And we do it with leaders who are not afraid to fight."

Describes men like Quantrill, Morgan, Forrest - fast, aggressive, effective.

20 posted on 09/01/2006 3:04:54 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: bnelson44
How was Patton at holding cities once his tanks took them?

Pretty good actually, none of them fell back into enemy hands. The people of those cities are now under a representative form of government and the Nazis are f#cking two carbon molecules looking for some hydrogen and oxygen in order to come back as a lump of plant material.

When you get rid of a tooth, you pull it out and treat it... you don't gently talk the tooth out of your jaw and convince it to fall out on its own...otherwise an infection will occur and you may lose your jaw or even your life....

I agree with this man, small hunter/killer fire teams that are networked together to form squad/platoon and even company actions if needed. but all under the radar

cleric declares jihad against americans/jews/christians.... =dead... mosque found with intel/weapons/insurgents=booby trap and blame it on the rival cleric/ medications used for treatment of insurgents= poison them and make all lines of communication suspect. Blank out entire areas of cell phone service for a week or two.... and wait.

Photograph everybody and give them identity cards/dna sample... no card=lock up until id verification then plant chips in them....not under the skin but inside them. If they are found to be without id and "chipless", kill them...

repeat about 5-6,000 times and then do it again

why should we do it again...... cause even though we'll agree not to do it , maybe it't the Israeli's doing it, or the Jews... or the Bldeberger group or the Russians....or the Chinese....

every time, every place, every body.... any of these asshats threatens our "destruction". Chavez, Kim Il, stupid camel rat humping moslem cleric.... kill them or make them disappear.

I say give it a nice little 4-7 year plan during the next Republican administration....

of course this is only my opinion, and I could be wrong

21 posted on 09/01/2006 3:05:40 PM PDT by Dick Vomer (liberals suck......... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.)
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To: bnelson44
How was Patton at holding cities once his tanks took them?

Easy, anyone gave him trouble, he just slapped the pi$$ out of them.<(•¿•)>

22 posted on 09/01/2006 3:08:13 PM PDT by itsahoot (The home of the Free, Because of the Brave (Shamelessly stolen from a Marine))
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To: stainlessbanner
Describes men like Quantrill, Morgan, Forrest - fast, aggressive, effective

Show me where it says "Ride into town, loot the place, and kill all the men and boys" which was Quantrill's modus operandi? I thought we were there to help the Iraqis?

23 posted on 09/01/2006 3:09:13 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Dracian
It's true that audacity in warfare can bring victories

Good grief, has this forum been over run with pacifists?

24 posted on 09/01/2006 3:09:54 PM PDT by itsahoot (The home of the Free, Because of the Brave (Shamelessly stolen from a Marine))
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To: bnelson44

Holding a city and winning the hearts and minds of the city's inhabitants is something else again. How was Patton at holding cities once his tanks took them?

With all due respect, I think there are two distinct talents and jobs involved here. The first to get the job done, and the second to do the mop-up, control, winning hearts etc. Requires different skill sets, i.e. different 'leaders'


25 posted on 09/01/2006 3:10:07 PM PDT by hardworking (Sneak up on a Muslim - pray for their conversion to Christianity)
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To: Non-Sequitur
Also quoted from the source:
"I’m not by any stretch advocating the killing of non-combatants."

Perhaps you should email the author and ask him what he meant. I think it's very clear.

W. Thomas Smith Jr. may be reached at wtsjr@navyseals.com

26 posted on 09/01/2006 3:14:52 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: SE Mom
We certainly need his clarity:

...Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. Men, all this stuff you've heard about America not wanting to fight - wanting to stay out of the war, is a lot of horse dung. Americans traditionally love to fight. All real Americans love the sting of battle. When you were kids, you all admired the champion marble shooter, the fastest runner, big league ball players, the toughest boxers. Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser. Americans play to win all the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost and never will lose a war, because the very thought of losing is hateful to Americans. Now, an army is a team - it lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of crap... Now, we have the finest food and equipment, the best spirit, and the best men in the world. You know, by god, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By god, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastard, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel. Now, some of you boys, I know, are wondering whether or not you'll chicken out under fire. Don't worry about it. I can assure you that you will all do your duty. The Nazis are the enemy. Wade into them, spill their blood, shoot them in the belly. When you put your hand into a bunch of goo that a moment before was your best friend's face, you'll know what to do. Now there's another thing I want you to remember. I don't want to get any messages saying that we are holding our position. We're not holding anything. Let the Hun do that. We are advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding onto anything except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose and we're gonna kick him in the ass. We're going to kick the hell out of him all the time and we're gonna go through him like crap through a goose. Now, there's one thing that you men will be able to say when you get back home, and you may thank god for it. Thirty years from now when you're sitting around your fireside with your grandson on your knee, and he asks you: 'What did you do in the Great World War II?', you won't have to say: 'Well, I shoveled s--t in Louisiana.' All right, now you sons-of-bitches, you know how I feel and I will be proud to lead you wonderful guys into battle anytime, anywhere. That's all.

27 posted on 09/01/2006 3:17:14 PM PDT by drew
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To: SE Mom; stainlessbanner
We need a few more like that today...

I would say we need a bunch more like that.

28 posted on 09/01/2006 3:17:35 PM PDT by Fiddlstix (Warning! This Is A Subliminal Tagline! Read it at your own risk!(Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: Silicon Cowboy
pinggg

WTF??!! Go away. Banned. Zot!

29 posted on 09/01/2006 3:25:04 PM PDT by ExtremeUnction
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To: Fiddlstix
I would say we need a bunch more like that.

I would happily settle for ONE commander or politician to call our enemy the worthless b@stards that they are. Just one.

30 posted on 09/01/2006 3:31:18 PM PDT by ARealMothersSonForever
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To: bnelson44
Patton did not hold onto cities.He continued to pursue the enemy.That was one of his main dictum's.
31 posted on 09/01/2006 3:46:07 PM PDT by puppypusher
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To: puppypusher

So he wouldn't be of much use in Iraq right now.


32 posted on 09/01/2006 3:51:02 PM PDT by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker! (Charlie Mike, son))
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To: hardworking
The first to get the job done, and the second to do the mop-up, control, winning hearts etc. Requires different skill sets, i.e. different 'leaders'

I wouldn't define what the US servicemen and women are doing right now in Iraq as "mopping up", although Patton probably would. He also would see no glory in it. That was Patton's biggest fault, he believed the historian's definition of glory.

33 posted on 09/01/2006 3:53:29 PM PDT by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker! (Charlie Mike, son))
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To: stand watie

"we could sure use "'ole Nate Forrest","Col Quantrell" or "Joe Wheeler" in Baghdad!"

and New Orleans !

;^)


34 posted on 09/01/2006 3:55:00 PM PDT by LeoWindhorse
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To: stand watie

I really don't think you'd want William Clarke Quantrill near anywhere he could murder civilians in the numbers he did at Lawrence, Kansas.


35 posted on 09/01/2006 4:18:43 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: stand watie

Ah, so you're into scalping the dead?


36 posted on 09/01/2006 4:19:47 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: stand watie

Like all the male children over 12?


37 posted on 09/01/2006 4:20:27 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: stand watie

Seeing your moniker brought back memories of reading about the original holder of that name 35+ years ago. Confederate cavalryman, wasn't he?


38 posted on 09/01/2006 4:24:22 PM PDT by Scotsman will be Free
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To: SE Mom

Would not do any good today.

The political leaders of both parties, aided by the media, would get rid of them before you could say "boo".

Not one of America's WWII Generals ans Admirals could have lasted 10 minutes in todays political climate.

Very few, if any, would have made it past the third promotion.


39 posted on 09/01/2006 4:26:19 PM PDT by sport
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To: bnelson44

Your Right about that.I think patton would be quite ticked too say the least about what we are doing in Iraq right now.


40 posted on 09/01/2006 4:41:16 PM PDT by puppypusher
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To: Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin
" And those "sissies" usually find their way to the top brass, only to prevent others from being brave when the situation calls for it. Or, they trump up charges because the bravery of another outshines their sissy little self..."

It is dreadfully unfortunate when this happens in the military. In my experience, it describes pretty much all of civil service and a lot of corporations.

41 posted on 09/01/2006 5:00:59 PM PDT by Enterprise (Let's not enforce laws that are already on the books, let's just write new laws we won't enforce.)
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To: bnelson44

Hearts and minds are irrelevant until the enemy is completely broken and no longer capable of mounting military action of any sort. Then hearts and minds will come around. We did not follow this path in Iraq ane must, therefore watch our backs and will not defeat Islam until we fight it as a real war against Iran or whatever the current enemy capital is.


42 posted on 09/01/2006 6:13:55 PM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them over THERE than over HERE)
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To: arthurus
I can't remember the source right at the moment, but the saying "When you've got them by the b@lls, their hearts and minds will follow" seems appropriate.
43 posted on 09/01/2006 6:45:47 PM PDT by RebelBanker (If you can't do something smart, do something right.)
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To: SuzyQ2; Southack; Sam Hill; Common Tator; Allegra

CARRY A BIG STICK BUMP


44 posted on 09/01/2006 7:02:10 PM PDT by The Spirit Of Allegiance (Public Employees: Honor Your Oaths! Defend the Constitution from Enemies--Foreign and Domestic!)
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To: stainlessbanner
Perhaps you should email the author and ask him what he meant.

Of course he isn't. If he means it then Quantrill is definitely the wrong man for the job, isn't he?

45 posted on 09/01/2006 7:38:33 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: LeoWindhorse
you could be RIGHT!

free dixie,sw

46 posted on 09/01/2006 8:14:40 PM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: SuzyQ2
General Patton had good company in his time. Flag officers that favored "limited warfare" were replaced with flag officers that would fight an unlimited war against our enemies. This required a great deal of restraint by politicians to let the military do its job. The only places "limited warfare" was used was in countries occupied by enemies forces. It was only after WWII that limited warfare became the norm for our nation.

Truman removed MacArthur from his command in the Korean War for criticizing the limited war.

Neither Johnson nor Nixon ever unleashed the full power of our military in Viet Nam. Nixon got close with the bombing of North Viet Nam, but the war in the south, where a vast number of the enemy resided, remained a limited war.

With the current war in Iraq, either our generals have no stomach for unlimited war, or this administration has followed our Post WWII form.

Unlimited warfare is the best protection we can give our troops, and delivers decisive victories.
47 posted on 09/01/2006 8:15:15 PM PDT by backtothestreets
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To: PzLdr
actually, NOBODY was murdered. 158 CRIMINALS, ALL of whom were wanted for serious COMMON CRIMES were executed, as the KS government REFUSED to stop the rapes/robbery/arson/torture & slaughter of UNARMED civilians in MO, AR & IT.

Lawrence was the most successful cavalry raid in the WBTS. such raids are called PUNITIVE EXPEDITIONS in the (internationally accepted) Law of War. such punitive expeditions are LAWFUL under "the LoW", even today.

free dixie,sw

48 posted on 09/01/2006 8:19:46 PM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: PzLdr
well, EUROPEANS taught my people to scalp. scalping was NOT a traditional practice of AmerIndians prior to the coming of "the hairy faces".

btw, Bill Anderson was 1/2 Kiowa.

free dxiie,sw

49 posted on 09/01/2006 8:21:43 PM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: PzLdr
you really should go read the TRUE STORY of the punitive raid on Lawrence. NOT a single child or woman was even injured, despite the LIES told by the FILTH from KS.

there is a list of every person executed OR arrested & returned to MO for punishment. ALL were adult MEN,who were wanted for felonies in IT, AR and /or MO.

free dixie,sw

50 posted on 09/01/2006 8:24:57 PM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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