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The Papacy and Islam
Bearean Beacon ^ | Richard Bennett and Robert J. Nicholson

Posted on 05/10/2007 12:28:17 PM PDT by Gamecock

New Partnership with Muslims In his message to the predominately Muslim nation of Kazakhstan twelve days after the horrors of September 11th, 2001, the Pope declared, “‘There is one God’. The Apostle proclaims before all else the absolute oneness of God. This is a truth which Christians inherited from the children of Israel and which they share with Muslims: it is faith in the one God, ‘Lord of heaven and earth’ (Lk.10:21), almighty and merciful. In the name of this one God, I turn to the people of deep and ancient religious traditions, the people of Kazakhstan.”1 He then gave a false Gospel. Building a “civilization of love”, he said, is the task of Christians and Muslims. His exact words were,

“This ‘logic of love’ is what he [Jesus] holds out to us, asking us to live it above all through generosity to those in need. It is a logic which can bring together Christians and Muslims, and commit them to work together for the ‘civilization of love’. It is a logic which overcomes all the cunning of this world and allows us to make true friends who will welcome us ‘into the eternal dwelling-places’ (Lk.16:9), into the ‘homeland’ of heaven.”2

His final prayer was for a partnership between “Christians and Muslims”. His words were,

“And in this celebration we want to pray for Kazakhstan and its inhabitants, so that this vast nation, with all its ethnic, cultural and religious variety, will grow stronger in justice, solidarity and peace. May it progress on the basis in particular of cooperation between Christians and Muslims, committed day by day, side by side, in the effort to fulfil God’s will.”3 I In spite of the catastrophic events of September 11th, the Pope has continued faithfully the Roman Catholic Church policy of affirmation and approval of Islam. The Vatican speaks officially of the Roman Catholic Church having the same God and faith of Abraham as the Muslims,

“The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.’”4

The Roman Catholic Church officially declares that the One God of Holy Scripture is also the God of Islam. It also esteems the moral life of Islam, the affirmation of which follows, “The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has also spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan, whose faith Muslims eagerly link to their own.

Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet, his virgin Mother they also honor, and even at times devotedly invoke. Further, they await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead. For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting.”5

It is clear from this official recognition that the Church of Rome’s estimation of Islam has experienced a fundamental change. The Biblical commandment not to venerate any strange god has been broken by Rome in order to credit Islam and its adherents with holding to the faith of Abraham. Patently, this novel re-assessment of the Muslim faith represents a major shift in the political policy of the Vatican. These official statements are carefully constructed religious discourse. They are aimed at engendering a new mood of respectful rapprochement and mutual understanding between the Papacy and Islam. As a device of diplomatic exchange, they show clearly that a new interfaith-ecumenicity is being propounded by Rome with the singular objective of embracing Islam and its peoples within a new international community of religious life and faith, a community incidentally, in which Rome enjoys priority as founder and senior partner.

Islam rejects Trinity, Christ’s divinity, His sacrifice

Christians believe in One God, in which One Godhead there exists Three Persons. Islam rejects this concept as blasphemous. The Qur’an declares, “Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve”(Surah 5:73)6. The Bible proclaims Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross in place of the believer, "In Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.”7 Islam passionately rejects the crucifixion of Christ Jesus. Thus the Qur’an declares, “And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure” (Surah 4:157).

The Bible proclaims Christ Jesus as divine, being the brightness of the divine glory, and the express image of God. In the Qur’an Christ Jesus is debased to being solely an apostle of Allah. Thus the Qur’an states, “O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah…” (Surah 4.171) Christ Jesus declared, “Before Abraham was, I AM.”8 “I and my Father are one.”9 “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”10 A religion that rejects Christ’s divinity is dead in its sins. It is an absurd blasphemy that the Pope declares that the one, living and subsistent God of the Bible is the same one as the infidel god of Islam.

The Gospel and the Qur’an’s religious philosophy In the Bible the Gospel is as the Apostle John declared,

“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”11 “And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.”12 The whole purpose of the God of Scripture is clearly seen in the reason why the Gospel of John was written, “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

This is totally different from the god of Islam who orders fighting, war, and punishment, by murder, crucifixion and amputation. The following is just a sample of the primary concept of fighting for Allah that the Qur’an requires:

“And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.” Surah 2.191

“And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.” Surah 2.193

“…let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.” Surah 4.74

“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,” Surah 5.33 “Those who believe fight in the way of Allah,…” Surah 8.39

The commandment of the Lord is as different as darkness and light, for He says, “Love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.”13

While many individual Muslims may deplore atrocities committed in the name of Islam, it cannot be denied that these atrocities are justified and encouraged by Islamic teaching. Even the most moderate form of Islam is incompatible with Biblical truth.

RCC dogma on Islam changed Nonetheless, after six centuries of condemning of Islam and two centuries of Crusades against the Muslims, modern Roman Catholicism is welcoming and affirming the religion of Mohammed. Rome now accepts Islam as having the same faith of Abraham as herself. How can the Roman Catholic Church espouse a religion that utterly rejects the Trinity, the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel? Clearly, the Roman Catholic Church still plays the adaptable chameleonfor since Vatican Council II, she has in Muslim circles embraced Islam to the extent that she calls praiseworthy that which she once had denounced as evil and the object of war. In 1095, Pope Urban II called for a “War of the Cross,” or a Crusade, to retake the holy lands from the infidel Muslim Turks. Several versions of his speech at the end of a Church Council have survived. Although we cannot be sure of the exact words the Pope used, the substance however is the same. The heart and mind of papal power in twelfth and thirteenth centuries is seen in these sentences, “All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested.”14

The present Pope and his Church uphold the teaching that the definitions of all Roman Pontiffs pertaining to faith or morals of the Roman Pontiff are “irreformable by their very nature.”15 If the present Roman Pontiff, John Paul II, has proclaimed Muslims to be acceptable as believers, then by that same proclamation, Urban II and the whole line of Crusading Popes have been proven to be damnable heretics, since they condemned Muslims and fought against them!

Emotional unity and its consequences

The ecumenism of the Papacy with Islam is of grave concern for the true body of Christ to consider. The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II sees himself as the one capable of bringing in a New World Order, in which Rome will be the Mother and Lawmaker. Through his Vatican II documents the Pope declares, “The encouragement of unity is in harmony with the deepest nature of the [Roman Catholic] Church’s mission .”16 On an highly emotional spiritual level there has been a great common-ground meeting place between Rome and Mecca in the town of Fatima in Portugal. To quote a Catholic news organization, “Our Lady of Fatima is really Fatima, daughter of the Prophet Mohammed On October 23, 1995, Iranian television began running stories that the apparitions in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 were religious phenomena of Muslim origin.”17 Islam teaches that men can achieve favor with God by what a person does. On the Fatima site in Portugal May 13th 2000, the Pope proclaimed a message that could be readily accepted by both Muslims and Catholics. “‘Pray, pray much and make sacrifices for sinners; many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray and make sacrifices for them’....”18 Heroic deeds to win the approval of God appeal to the natural man, including the devout Muslim; it is, however, light years away from the Gospel of grace. The Pope’s message, and the message and veneration of heroism in Islam are a total negation of the Gospel, “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us....”19 In practice both systemsa mammoth one billion adherents eachare totalitarian, synthesizing spiritual and civil power in their doctrinal presentations and cultic practices. The global hierarchy and infrastructure of the RCC, however, is far more developed than that of Islam.20 The bringing together of both under the Roman Pontiff, who calls himself the Vicar of Christ, would make for a political powerhouse of vast consequences.

Pope’s message echoed by Bush and Muslim Leaders The drawing of governments and religions even more closely into a global coalition before a politically constructed god has already begun. Rome has many times shown herself as the one to whom all can come for unity within her. Islam as such is still accepted as a valid religion, and the terrorists of September understood to be fallen from their religion, rather than upholding its teachings. In the words of President George W. Bush, “These murderers have hijacked a great religion in order to justify their evil deeds. And we cannot let it stand.”21 The Muslims themselves are giving the same message. For example, the Associated Press reported, “An international Muslim religious ruling endorsed the morality of the U.S.-led military effort against terrorists…The ruling…was written by Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the widely respected chairman of the Sunna and Sira Council in Qatar, along with three colleagues in Egypt and one in Syria. The new fatwa cited the words of God in the Quran and authoritative Hadith…‘All Muslims ought to be united against all those who terrorize the innocents, and those who permit the killing of non-combatants without a justifiable reason,’ the fatwa said…

The five jurists also said Muslims have a duty to speak up about the faith's anti-terrorism stand.”22 This spin on Islam is perfectly in line with what Pope and the Vatican declared, “together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”23 It looks as if the Pope, the politicians, and the Muslims continue to conceal successfully the history of Mohammed and the contents of his Qur’an.

A Trumpet Call to the True Church The Pope's profession of a ‘civilization of love’ in his rapprochement with Islam represents only another tactical re-appraisal of circumstances and opportunities for Rome. It is merely the old idol of humanistic sentiment religiously recycled and held out to the world as the cohesive force that will unite all sincere religious people in a concordat of international condemnation against the kind of anti-social fanaticism that led to the September 11th horror. The profound danger for Evangelical people is that they, unthinking, might come to embrace Rome’s claim to be the true spokesman for Christ on this earth, a lie which is deeply embedded in this new thrust for interfaith ecumenicity. The Pope is not a first among equals as a bishop. Frankly, he is not even a bishop in the biblical sense of the term. Karol Wojtyla is the head of a totalitarian hierarchy. Its position as the restored Holy Roman Empire is depicted in the Bible. He is an absolute monarch. He has his own secular government of Vatican City and more property worldwide than any other person on the planet. He has territorial dominions, cardinals, ambassadors worldwide, a detective force, legislature, jurisprudence, laws, advocates, taxes, banks, foreign treaties, ambitious plans and policy, more than any other secular Prince. But he differs from other secular leaders: his spiritual commerce goes hand in hand with his civil power, claiming infallibility and international recognition. The Pope in his own laws declares, “There is neither appeal nor recourse against a decision or decree of the Roman Pontiff.” His arrogance is not just in spiritual matters, but in secular affairs also, for he claims supreme power as much as any totalitarian ruler, “The First See is judged by no one.”24 “It is solely the right of the Roman Pontiff himself judge…those who hold the highest civil office in a state...”25 This Pope desires partnership with Islam. His claims echo II Thessalonians 2:4, “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God” and Isaiah 14:14, "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be likemost High.”

Had not Holy Scripture warned us of this we would rightly be afraid. The Sovereign God remains sovereign. His purposes may be the purification of the Bride of Christ Jesus, the remnant pilgrim Church on earth. The Lord Jesus Christ did not elect the Pope as His Vicar on earth; rather He and the Father gave to the Holy Spirit of Truth to that position.

If contemporary Evangelical leaders and their disciples discount and ignore these utterly basic prophetic and historical facts, they must understand they are placing themselves outside the stream of historic biblical Christianity. They are willingly divorcing themselves from great men of the faithWycliff, Huss, Luther, Tyndale, Calvin, Cranmer, Latimer, Ridley, Bradford, Foxe, Bunyan, Newton, Edwards, Whitefield, Wesley, Spurgeon, Ryle, and Lloyd-Jones to mention just a few. It is impossible to hold to the Gospel of Christ and simultaneously accord any legitimacy to the accommodations of the papal system. The Lord of Glory Himself will not allow such behavior to go unpunished. If Evangelicals to continue to fraternize with Rome, it will mark a major, irrevocable betrayal of the Gospel testimony toward the poor deluded adherents of Romanism and leave them languishing in the claws of the devil. In other words, in simple terms of loyalty to the Lord Jesus Christ, those claiming to be believers must “Come out of her that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”26 There is no common ground between the religion of apostasy and the Gospel of the Apostles. In spite of papal declarations of a truce and vacuous “Evangelical” alliances with the enemies of Christ, “Enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed,” Genesis 3:1, is an epitomized history of conflict which, from the moment of the Fall, has been waged between the children of light and of darkness, between those who adhere to the Gospel of grace and God’s righteousness, and those who are ranged on the side of the Devil by their love of accommodation and compromise. At this moment of history the Ecumenism of accommodation, with the Pope leading the pack, accepts Islam as a great religion. The true believer must decide where he or she stands. “And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve.”27 •

Richard Bennett of “Berean Beacon” WebPage: http://www.bereanbeacon.org Permission is given by the authors to copy this article if it is done in its entirety without any changes. Permission is also given post this article in its entirety on Internet WebPages.

1 Homily of the Pope, in Astana, Kazakhstan, on Sunday, 23 September 2001. Accessed 9/28/2001. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/2001/documents/hf_jpii_hom_20010923_kazakhstan_astana_en.html 2 Ibid. 3 Ibid. 4 Catechism of the Catholic Church, (San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1994) Para. 841 Hereafter Catechism 5 Vatican Council II: The Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents, No. 56, Nostra Aetate, Austin P. Flannery, ed.(Grand Rapids, MI: Wm B Eerdsmans Publ. Co., 1975 & 1984) Vol. I., pp. 739-740. Hereafter Vatican II. 6 All quotes from the Koran are from this site: http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/ 7 Ephesians 1:7 8 John 8:58 9 John 10:30 10 John 8:24 11 1 John 1:5 12 John 17:3 13 Luke 6:35-36 14 Bongars, Gesta Dei per Francos, 1, pp. 382 f., in A Source Book for Medieval History, Oliver J. Thatcher and Edgar Holmes McNeal, eds. (New York: Scribners, 1905). 15 Vatican II, No. 28, Lumen Gentium, Vol. I., p. 380. 16 Vatican II, No. 64, Gaudium et Spes , Vol. I, Sec. 42, p. 942. 17 www.zenit.org/english/asia/za980513.html Accessed 11/1/2001 18 www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_p.../hf_jp-ii_hom_20000513_beatification-fatima_en.htm accessed 6/1/00. 19 Titus 3:5. 20 For a brief overview of the Islamic position, see Yossef Bodansky, Bin Laden: The Man Who Declared War onAmerica (Roseville, CA: Prima Publ, Forum, 1999, 2001) Introduction, pp. x-xv. For a study of RCC infrastructure, see 2001Catholic Almanac (Huntington, IN: Our Sunday Visitor Publ., 2000) Part III: The Church Universal. 21 Reported on cnn.com 10/12/01 “Bush Gives Update on the War on Terrorism”. 22http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011012/ts/attacks_fatwa_1.html Associated Press, Saturday October 13, 2001. 23 Catechism of the Catholic Church, Para. 841. 24 Code of Canon Law, Latin-Eng. ed. (Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1989) Can. 1404. All canons taken from this work. 25 Can. 1405. 26 Revelation 18:4. 27 Josh 24:15


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KEYWORDS: benedictxvi; catholic; fascinatedwcatholics; inbedwithislam; pope; vatican; whatsupwiththat
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1 posted on 05/10/2007 12:28:21 PM PDT by Gamecock
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy; P-Marlowe; Quix; HarleyD; irishtenor; wmfights; xzins; Terriergal

Right out of the Catholic Catechism!


2 posted on 05/10/2007 12:30:34 PM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: Gamecock
If Evangelicals to continue to fraternize with Rome, it will mark a major, irrevocable betrayal of the Gospel testimony toward the poor deluded adherents of Romanism and leave them languishing in the claws of the devil.

BARF ALERT!

3 posted on 05/10/2007 12:33:02 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Gamecock
. To quote a Catholic news organization, “Our Lady of Fatima is really Fatima, daughter of the Prophet Mohammed

No citation, how typical.

4 posted on 05/10/2007 12:34:34 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Gamecock
Great article, GC.

This spin on Islam is perfectly in line with what Pope and the Vatican declared, "together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." It looks as if the Pope, the politicians, and the Muslims continue to conceal successfully the history of Mohammed and the contents of his Qur'an.

5 posted on 05/10/2007 12:37:19 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Pyro7480

Is the Allah the same deity as the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob?

Is Jesus Allah?


6 posted on 05/10/2007 12:39:52 PM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: Gamecock
Is the Allah the same deity as the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob?

Nope, I'm a Catholic, and I don't believe that. Though that comes from the Catechism, it comes from a document that was issued by a pastoral council, not a doctoral one. I am free to disagree with that. In fact, in can be argued that the Jews don't worship the same God as Christians, since they don't believe in the Trinity.

7 posted on 05/10/2007 12:43:21 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Pyro7480
In fact, in can be argued that the Jews don't worship the same God as Christians, since they don't believe in the Trinity.

I'd like to see how such an argument avoided Marcionism.

-A8

8 posted on 05/10/2007 12:45:14 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Pyro7480; Gamecock
No citation, how typical.

The Catholic news organization quoted was Zenit. I'm pretty sure you've heard of them.

The link provided will take you to the original. Here's the article in full that is found at the link - note the headline:

ISLAM CO-OPTING FATIMA
Iranian TV: Our Lady of Fatima is Really Fatima, Daughter of the Prophet Mohammed

VATICAN CITY, MAY 13 (ZENIT) - On October 23, 1995, Iranian television began running stories that the apparitions in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 were religious phenomena of Muslim origin.

Growing Muslim interest in the holy site is sparked by the Portuguese town's name: Fatima, which is Arabic. Portugal and Spain were both once under Islamic rule, and are the only such countries to ever break free from such a government.

According to historical accounts, in 1156 a battle was fought between Christian and Muslim forces in the locality. A Christian knight saved a young girl named Fatma (Fatima) from the dangers of the pitched battle. Later she converted to Christianity and married the knight, only to die shortly afterwards. In grief, the knight became a monk and the town was renamed Fatima in her honor.

According to Iranian Television, the woman who appeared to the three shepherd children in 1917 was not the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, but Fatima, the daughter of the prophet Mohammed, founder of Islam. Her message was reported to be "I am Fatima, daughter of the Prophet of Islam." This television report has helped launch the growing waves of Muslim pilgrims who have been visiting this Christian site in Portugal in recent years.

Catholics, on the other hand, say that the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to the three shepherd children. She told them to pray, especially encouraging the prayer of the Rosary. Lucía, the only surviving recipient of the vision, was entrusted with three "secrets," of which the third has never been made public. She recently assured that the third secret was never intended for general proclamation. Pope John Paul II has had a strong devotion to Our Lady of Fatima, especially since the failed assassination attempt of Ali Agca, which occurred precisely on May 13, 1991, the anniversary of the first vision at Fatima (May 13, 1917). ZA980513-3


9 posted on 05/10/2007 12:45:31 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (FR Member Alex Murphy: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: Gamecock
The Roman Catholic Church officially declares that the One God of Holy Scripture is also the God of Islam.

Can't wait to see the Pope scream Allāhu Akbar!

Apparently Allah, who has no son, is the same God the Catholics believe in.

10 posted on 05/10/2007 12:46:30 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Gamecock
This article is so full of flaws, misrepresentations of fact and outright fallacies that it looks like it was written by a retarded schizophrenic on crack.

Posting trash like this shows the world what kind of “Christianity” you and your ilk represent. Keep up the good work, it’s better for our cause than any apologetics material that we could muster!

11 posted on 05/10/2007 12:49:39 PM PDT by Theoden (Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomine Tuo da Gloriam)
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To: Alex Murphy

Yeah, but the article seems to imply that the Catholic news organization was saying that, not Iranian TV.


12 posted on 05/10/2007 12:50:27 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Gamecock
Rome now accepts Islam as having the same faith of Abraham as herself. How can the Roman Catholic Church espouse a religion that utterly rejects the Trinity, the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel? ...the present Roman Pontiff, John Paul II, has proclaimed Muslims to be acceptable as believers...

Let's go back to the original statement from the Catechism.

profess to hold the faith of Abraham

"Professing" and actually having the same faith Abraham are two different things. They can profess all you want, but in reality, they don't have it.

13 posted on 05/10/2007 12:51:08 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Pyro7480

So the late Pope and the Catholicism are both wrong!?!


14 posted on 05/10/2007 12:52:21 PM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: adiaireton8

That’s not why I’m saying. Marcionism was dualist, and tried to disconnect Christianity from its Hebrew routes. I’m not trying to do that.


15 posted on 05/10/2007 12:53:35 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Pyro7480; Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg

We’re not talking about the Jews.

We are talking about Rome/Islam love fest. Please stop trying to change the subject.


16 posted on 05/10/2007 12:54:43 PM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: Gamecock
So the late Pope and the Catholicism are both wrong!?!

LOL! That's the wrong conclusion to draw, and it shows your own misunderstanding of Catholicism.

17 posted on 05/10/2007 12:55:47 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Pyro7480
If you think that an argument can be constructed showing that Christians and Jews do not worship God, I would like to see how such an argument avoids the principle error of Marcionism, which was precisely the claim that Christian and Jews did not worship the same God.

-A8

18 posted on 05/10/2007 12:58:07 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8

“worship the [*same*] God”


19 posted on 05/10/2007 12:59:03 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Gamecock

There is one God and he ain’t Allah...


20 posted on 05/10/2007 1:00:10 PM PDT by Little Ray (Rudy Guiliani: if his wives can't trust him, why should we?)
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To: Pyro7480
How is it the wrong conclusion? It was exactly the conclusion I drew from what you said.

-A8

21 posted on 05/10/2007 1:00:28 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Gamecock; Theoden
The present Pope and his Church uphold the teaching that the definitions of all Roman Pontiffs pertaining to faith or morals of the Roman Pontiff

This doesn't even make sense as English, much less as theology.

are “irreformable by their very nature.”15 If the present Roman Pontiff, John Paul II, has proclaimed Muslims to be acceptable as believers

There is no such ex cathedra teaching. You know that, and so does Richard Bennett.

22 posted on 05/10/2007 1:01:52 PM PDT by Campion (FR Poster Campion: Declared a servant of antiChrist by the Westminster Confession)
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To: Pyro7480; Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe
LOL! That's the wrong conclusion to draw, and it shows your own misunderstanding of Catholicism.

a. The late Pope made a connection between God and Allah.
b. The Catechism is in line with the Pope's statements.
c. You said I am free to disagree with that.

So either you are right or the Pope/Rome is. Tell me, who is right and who is wrong and why?

23 posted on 05/10/2007 1:04:43 PM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: adiaireton8
If you think that an argument can be constructed showing that Christians and Jews do not worship God

You mean the same God?

But getting back the subject, I think my statement doesn't properly deliver my point. My point is an obvious one, that Christianity and Judaism as it has exists today have distinct and differing beliefs about the nature of God.

24 posted on 05/10/2007 1:05:30 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Gamecock
The late Pope made a connection between God and Allah.

Yeah, but that was his own theological opinion. He wasn't teaching that as Catholic dogma. As I said before, I am free to disagree.

25 posted on 05/10/2007 1:07:43 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Pyro7480
My point is an obvious one, that Christianity and Judaism as it has exists today have distinct and differing beliefs about the nature of God.

Indeed, that is obvious. But that is not what you said in #7.

-A8

26 posted on 05/10/2007 1:08:06 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
How is it the wrong conclusion? It was exactly the conclusion I drew from what you said.

How so? And why exactly are you picking a fight with me??

27 posted on 05/10/2007 1:09:56 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: adiaireton8
But that is not what you said in #7.

Yeah, that's why I said, "I think my statement doesn't properly deliver my point." This reenforces my thinking that you're picking a fight with me for some reason.

28 posted on 05/10/2007 1:11:36 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Pyro7480
I'm not picking a fight. I'm trying to understand you. First, I don't see how your statement in #7 about the Jews avoids Marcionism. Second, your statement in #7 about Allah implies that you think that JPII and the Church are wrong on this point, and yet you seem to be dancing around Gamecock's question and trying to avoid coming right and saying, "Yes, I think that JPII and the Church" are wrong on this point." If you think JPII and the Church are wrong on this point, then why the hesistancy to acknowledge that?

As for "I think my statement doesn't properly deliver my point", how could I possibly know that this meant, "I meant something entirely different than what I said in #7."?

-A8

29 posted on 05/10/2007 1:18:20 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
First, I don't see how your statement in #7 about the Jews avoids Marcionism.

Did I say I believe it? I don't.

Second, your statement in #7 about Allah implies that you think that JPII and the Church are wrong on this point, and yet you seem to be dancing around Gamecock's question and trying to avoid coming right and saying, "Yes, I think that JPII and the Church" are wrong on this point." If you think JPII and the Church are wrong on this point, then why the hesistancy to acknowledge that?

Because nothing that has been quoted from JPII or "The Church" is dogmatic teaching. Vatican II was a pastoral council.

30 posted on 05/10/2007 1:23:35 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Pyro7480
Did I say I believe it? I don't.

So now you *did* in fact say what you meant in #7 about Christians and Jews not worshipping the same God, except you only forgot in #7 to provide the qualifier that you don't actually believe it? Ok. That makes hash of what you said in #24, and #28. The next time you say something that you don't believe, please add that qualifier ("I don't believe this"), so readers are not misled. If when you end up misleading readers either by saying something entirely different than you meant to say, or by saying something that you actually don't believe, but without adding that qualifier, please don't accuse your readers of trying to pick a fight with you when they start asking questions. Instead, take responsibility for your writing error.

If you think JPII and the Church are wrong on this point, then why the hesistancy to acknowledge that?

Because nothing that has been quoted from JPII or "The Church" is dogmatic teaching. Vatican II was a pastoral council.

That's a non sequitur. Just because it was not made "dogma" does not mean that it was not JPII's position, and is not the Church's position. (What is in the Catechism counts as being the Church's position.) And so if you disagree with it, it follows that you think that it is wrong. Therefore, logically, it follows that you think that on this point, JPII and the Church are wrong. So why not be forthright and say "Yes, I think JPII and the Church are wrong about this point."?

-A8

31 posted on 05/10/2007 1:39:27 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Little Ray

Allah is the God of the Koran. In my opinion that is on the same order as the statement that The God the the LDS is the God of the Book of Mormon. There are signnificant differences between these views of God and the God of the Bible. On the other hand, the God of the Talmud is also significantly different from the Trinitarian God of Christians. All, however, profess to be the God of Abraham.


32 posted on 05/10/2007 1:40:28 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: adiaireton8

It may have been JPII’s position, but that does not automatically make it the Church’s dogma. Dogma or doctrine is formally defined and is consistent with the tradition and practice of the Church since the beginning.

A pope can have all sorts of opinions but they are exactly that, his personal opinion, and do not thereby become church dogma.

JPII was occasionally ambiguous in many things he said and did, or didn’t say and didn’t do. He was also much more closely examined or constantly on stage than any other prior pope, and I think sometimes he made remarks that probably needed more clarification, but because of the circumstances in which they were made, never received it.


33 posted on 05/10/2007 1:49:45 PM PDT by livius
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To: adiaireton8; Gamecock
So why not be forthright and say "Yes, I think JPII and the Church are wrong about this point."?

Because that's not what Gamecock said. He said, "So the late Pope and the Catholicism are both wrong!?!

If you want me to be blunt, then yes, Pope John Paul II was wrong to say that. I may get the Riot Act read to me now, but I really don't care, since hasn't making an ex cathedra teaching. As for Catholicism being wrong, I certainly don't believe that. As for Nostra Aetate and the statement from the Catechism, I do think they are problematic, since Mohammedanism is a false religion.

34 posted on 05/10/2007 1:52:39 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: livius

Thanks for the input livius. :-)


35 posted on 05/10/2007 1:53:52 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: livius
It may have been JPII’s position, but that does not automatically make it the Church’s dogma.

I agree. I never claimed it was "dogma". But not all of the Church's positions are dogma. What is taught in the Catechism counts as being "the Church's position", even if it does not have the status of dogma. And therefore this teaching about Muslims worshipping the same God as Catholics (#841 in the Catechism) should be considered the Church's position on this matter.

-A8

36 posted on 05/10/2007 1:58:17 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Pyro7480
Because that's not what Gamecock said.

But that is clearly what he meant. He obviously wasn't trying to get you to denounce the entirety of Catholicism. He wanted to know whether you thought that Catholicism is wrong on this one point, i.e. whether Muslims worship the same God that Catholics worship.

-A8

37 posted on 05/10/2007 2:00:49 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8

Islam is a syncretist religion. It took its concept of God from Judaism, along with a collection of ritual practices, and took certain already heretical conceptions of Jesus from the Christianity circulating in the Middle East at that time, and finally topped it all off with the pagan concepts, places and rituals of the Arabs.

In that sense, it can be said that what Muslims believe they believe, so to speak, is the same God as that of the Jews, that is, the God of Abraham.

Obviously, it’s a pretty tenuous relationship with the true God of Abraham, but that is what they believe, and that is why it appears in Catholic sources.

On the other hand, a reading of any good Catholic theologian, not to mention the Pope (BXVI, that is), will give you a more accurate view of the Church’s understanding of the difference between the Muslim concept of the God of Abraham and the true concept.


38 posted on 05/10/2007 2:07:30 PM PDT by livius
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To: Pyro7480
I may get the Riot Act read to me now, but I really don't care

Ok, here's your "Riot Act":

"Such is the nature of Catholicism that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole or as a whole rejected" - Benedict XV

:-)

-A8

39 posted on 05/10/2007 2:12:41 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
...not all of the Church's positions are dogma. What is taught in the Catechism counts as being "the Church's position", even if it does not have the status of dogma. And therefore this teaching about Muslims worshipping the same God as Catholics (#841 in the Catechism) should be considered the Church's position on this matter.

Not the Church's dogma (infallible), but the Church's position (potentially fallible). Gotcha. Ping for reference.

40 posted on 05/10/2007 2:19:51 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (FR Member Alex Murphy: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: adiaireton8

So am I a “bad Catholic”? ;-)


41 posted on 05/10/2007 2:25:34 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Alex Murphy

I know I am probably wasting my time making this point, but the CCC makes it clear that Muslims CLAIM to worship the same God. It does not claim that the Muslim concept of God is correct.

For ANYONE to deny that Muslims CLAIM to worship the God of Abraham would be lunacy. Having said that, however, that does not mean that Muslims worship the God of Abraham with the correct understanding of who He is.

The CCC #841 says “these ****PROFESS**** to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”330

Lumen Gentium, 16: “In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, ****PROFESSING**** to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

Nostra Aetate 3: “3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, **** WITH WHOM THE FAITH OF ISLAM TAKES PLEASURE IN LINKING ITSELF **** , submitted to God. Though ****THEY DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS AS GOD****, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.”

It seems pretty clear to me that the council fathers and the CCC authors and editors are saying that Muslims CLAIM to have the faith of Abraham and outwardly worship the God of Abraham. Clearly, however, they also acknowledge that Muslims DO NOT WORSHIP the same God as shown by the reference to Muslim denial of Christ’s divinity.


42 posted on 05/10/2007 2:59:17 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Pyro7480

our rocor priest mentioned in a sermon that we should not be confused by protestants claiming to worship the same God. they don’t.


43 posted on 05/10/2007 2:59:46 PM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii
our rocor priest mentioned in a sermon that we should not be confused by protestants claiming to worship the same God. they don’t.

Well, we certainly don't worship the same Mary! [ducks and runs]...

44 posted on 05/10/2007 3:04:50 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (FR Member Alex Murphy: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: vladimir998; Alex Murphy; Gamecock
Well put Vladimir; the Islamist understanding of God, as well as their manner of worship are extremely deficient. They could very well intend to be worshiping the God of their father Ismael, but of course in their manner of doing so, they have missed the true nature of Christ. In other words, the Mohammedans are wrong, and the Catholic Church points that out (though it points out the few parts that the Muslims get right, which is confusing to folks such as (Fr.) Bennett).

The “Love Feast” that Gamecock pointed out is a figment of Bennett’s imagination. Look at the Pope’s comments at Regensburg concerning Islam.

45 posted on 05/10/2007 3:26:33 PM PDT by GCC Catholic
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To: Alex Murphy

well. if you’re worshipping Mary, tht’s a whole nother heresey i haven’t heard of.


46 posted on 05/10/2007 3:28:58 PM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii

Got that right!


47 posted on 05/10/2007 3:31:57 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Pyro7480
Yeah, but that was his own theological opinion. He wasn't teaching that as Catholic dogma. As I said before, I am free to disagree.

Aw, c'mon...What a cop out...

According to you guys, your pope is the Theologian's Theologian...He's the Vicar of Christ, Christ on Earth...How could he make a mistake and how can a good Catholic disagree with him???

He's led by the Holy Spirit...He's the magisterium...He's the head of all religions of the world...And you disagree with him as to the nature of God???

48 posted on 05/10/2007 3:38:08 PM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: vladimir998; GCC Catholic; Alex Murphy; Gamecock

Well, I doubt that I would declare this “well put”. It sounds like a bunch of gobblygook nonsense to me.

If the Catholic Church feels the Muslims are not worshiping the ONE true God, why don’t they simply come out and say so. The real answer (understandably) is that the Pope would have hoards of Muslims storming Rome. No matter how much one tries to slice and dice what Rome is saying these days about Muslims, it is clear that they have sought the path of appeasement rather than confront people with the truth of the gospel.


49 posted on 05/10/2007 3:45:04 PM PDT by HarleyD (FR Harley: Nothing to declare)
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To: HarleyD

You wrote:

“Well, I doubt that I would declare this “well put”. It sounds like a bunch of gobblygook nonsense to me.”

LOL! So say you. Care to prove how it is such?

“If the Catholic Church feels the Muslims are not worshiping the ONE true God, why don’t they simply come out and say so.”

1) They did. Remember the Church clearly said Muslims DO NOT BELIEVE JESUS IS DIVINE.

2) To say it as you wanted it simply had no place in the kind of documents that LG and NA were. Notice, the whole document is about what religions share more than what separates them. It is about hope in finding common ground to begin discussions. I think this was largely pie-in-the-sky thinking from the council fathers in the early (and very hopeful) 1960’s, but it does not deny that the Muslims deny Christ.

“The real answer (understandably) is that the Pope would have hoards of Muslims storming Rome. No matter how much one tries to slice and dice what Rome is saying these days about Muslims, it is clear that they have sought the path of appeasement rather than confront people with the truth of the gospel.”

Utter nonsense. Think for once in your life. What Muslim hordes threatened Rome in 1964 or 1965? Seriously, get a clue.


50 posted on 05/10/2007 3:51:07 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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