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Locked on 05/25/2008 9:01:16 PM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason:
Royal pain in the ass. |
Posted on 05/23/2008 10:12:33 AM PDT by LeGrande
"The raid - resulting in the largest child custody case in American history - was based on a lie."
"Police traced the calls to 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman named Rozita Swinton. Swinton had earlier been arrested for making a false report, and accused of posing as "Jennifer," 16, who called 911 to report that her father had locked her in a basement for days. Swinton may also have posed as thirteen-year-old Dana Anderson, who was being sexually abused by her pastor and raped by her father. There is no evidence that Sarah, Jennifer, or Dana exist. Swinton remains a "person of interest" in the case, but has not been charged in connection to the raid. "
I’m shocked. SHOCKED I tell you.
I noticed last night that ‘Nancy Grace’ is still convinced that horrible things were going on there and of the guilt of the men.
Fourth Amendment is now history.
Isn’t Swinton an Obama delegate in Colorado?
Just in case you or anyone else haven't read about the sordid details behind Polygamist communities and how they operate:
The Primer---Helping Victims of Domestic Violence and Child Abuse in Polygamous Communities
the initial report was a lie, but that does not mean what the compound was doing was legal. They still were sick and should have had their kids removed whether they “officially” abused them or not.
BTW, the liar is an obama supporter. This was posted on FR when this story (about her lying) first broke.
Ready for another round of “let’s defend FLDS?”
Well, well, well... where’s all the smart asses who were making claims of “child rape” without any evidence, now?
so you are apparently down with polygamy since one person lied here?
So is a lie justified if it's told in service of a truth?
Not necessarily. Ironically, the false rape claim may end up hurting the children, since Sarah's story triggered the raid. If the abuse allegations are real - and Sarah isn't - the government will have a difficult time prosecuting anyone at the compound for child abuse. The false rape claim may allow real child abusers to escape punishment, leaving the children as the littlest victims of false reports.
Which is pretty much the same thing many of us have been saying...but we get accused of supporting these people when we say it.
You’re confusing polygamy with child abuse and child rape. The kids weren’t removed for polygamy. They were removed on alleged child abuse, molestation, and rape.
Polygamy is illegal. Whether they actually physically or sexually abused the kids or not, they did emotionally abuse them through their illegal cult.
That in itself is enough to take the kids away.
that’s some deep analysis there.
I’m “down” with polygamy because I mentioned the liar is an obama supporter.
Wow. Simply wow.
Correct. That is why they were removed, but since polygamy is illegal, the removal was justified on that grounds alone.
There may very well have been horrible things going on in this cult’s “compound”. There may very well be some very guilty men out there.
But the way the investigation was botched, they may never be prosecuted.
And I still haven’t had the ORIGINAL questions I asked about this case adequately answered by ANYONE from the “government is right” side of this argument.
If a two year “inside” investigation indictated that certain MEN were guilty of crimes, why were these MEN not arrested at the START of the “raid”? Why were the only people “detained” (= arrested) women and children?
Let us know if you feel the same way when someone from the Government knocks on your door and accuses you of raising your kids in a way Hillary doesn't approve of, unofficially of course.
Then they yank them out of your wifes arms and send them 600 miles away all without ever charging you with any crime at all.
You're not only a fool, you're a dangerous fool.
L
Remind me again how many members of this 'compound' have been indicted for the crime of polygamy. I can't seem to find any names.
Thanks for the help.
L
One writer (Marci Hamilton) did a great job in sizing this up on a May 1 post…what I kind of reference as the doctrine of ipso-findo:
“Yet, many have argued there was a violation of due process as though the authorities are required to be intentionally ignorant about the communities within their jurisdiction. FLDS lawyers have been floating to the press and public the bizarre notion that authorities were required to enter the compound with a mental blank slate, as though they knew absolutely nothing about the FLDS. It is a position that defies common sense. While authorities need probable cause for a particular raid, they do not have to act stupid once they are inside a criminal organization, whether it is a religious group, the mob, or a drug cartel. Indeed, it is law enforcement's obligation to be informed about likely criminal conduct in their jurisdiction. That includes orchestrated child abuse.“ See http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2009647/posts
There most certainly are men somewhere who are guilty of something.
Now that the state can enter any home and detain occupants based on anonymous phone calls, I'm sure we'll find some somewhere.
Goodbye Fourth Amendment.
Hmmm “illegal cult”?
Based on your assumptions then I think they ought to be going after every religious organization in the country then that teaches the Bible, Koran or Torah - or for that matter anything else. Confucianism, Wiccans, and pretty much any other religion that teaches a ‘deity’ - and sets down laws then.
How about going after Islam, since it is a cult in and of itself?
How about going after MADD? Liberals? Conservatives with guns and bibles?
Give it a rest. It is an accusation that they are polygamists in the first place and it might be true, but until there are court cases then basically, you’re ALL WRONG about this. If they are PROVED in a court of law as having broken the law, then they can be called polygamists.
The point here is very simple... you believe it to be wrong (as do I) - but at the same time, they have a RIGHT TO THEIR RELIGION. GOT THAT? When they break a law, then try them in court and stop being the psychoanalyst and trying to say “it hurts the children”. That’s the “Liberal way out” of an argument (It’s for the children!).
Just fill in the blank with whatever you want. Works nicely in a fascist hillary/obama society.
I am convinced such evidence would demonstrate multi-generational, systemitized incest which is illegal and abusive.
The members may do illegal things but tell me where being a member of the FLDS or any church for that matter is illegal.
You actually asserting they aren’t polygamists?
Evidently the Texas state court of appeals disagrees that the majority of the children were at risk.
CPS got it’s ass handed to it and now is going to appeal to the state supreme court.
Not one person here on this board was in on that raid. Not one person on this board knows the true story.
Not one person on this board knows anything other than what the lying news media prints.
We don’t believe them when we read 90% of what they say otherwise, why the hell are people believing them now?
How did Ms Swinton know about the FLDS anyway?
Hey, you’re asserting they ARE polygamists, then taking it one step further and calling them all guilty. So you’re judge, jury and probably want to be executioner as well. Not in my life time and not on my planet. YOU need to get the hell out of America and move to Iran
That wasn't the question, nor was it why the compound was busted up. You're more worried about busting up polygamists then you are about the children who were abused.
Not only was it a lie, but the appellate judges ruled that there was NO EVIDENCE that supported the claims of the CPS. Basically, the CPS just didn’t like what they THOUGHT was the FLDS belief system and took over 450 children from their parents without any proof whatsoever!
“Fill in the Blank”:
Speeding, 10-19 mph over the speed limit.
A 4 point offense and loss of your first born son (the benevolent dictator does not want you to adversely influence his driving habits).
Good point about their religion being legal. I was wrong about that. They have the right to practice whatever they want as long as it is not doing damage to another person in some manner. Everybody knows they are polygamous though down there it seems. It is odd there is no case for that yet, however.
I make no assertions whatsoever.
You doing that.
I simply asked for the names of the people living in that 'compound' who have been indicted for polygamy, child rape, child abuse, animal cruelty, tearing the tags off of mattresses, mopery with intent to creep, impure thoughts on a Steamboat landing, or any other crime.
You either know the names of indicted persons or you don't.
Which is it?
L
What? Are you an idiot?
First of all, if they didn't abuse them (I'll eschew the meaningless "officially" here), then the children shouldn't have been removed. To the extent that any of the girls were being forced into underaged marriages with much older men (and the evidence now seems to suggest that this allegation has, in the very least, been blown waaaaaaay out of proportion to what actually might have happened), then ONLY those girls should have been removed from ONLY those families. You don't remove children from other families, based on what their neighbour down the street is doing.
Polygamy is illegal. But guess what? Since polygamy is illegal, the logical course of action is to arrest the men who are polygamists. You don't go in and take every last kid out of a community, even from the families which were strictly monogamous and of legal age. You don't do it even if you disagree with their religion and think that they are "sick". You know why? Because the government big enough to do it to them is also big enough to do it to you. What are you going to do when some bureaucratic nabob takes the notion that raising YOUR kids in YOUR religion is "child abuse", and goes in and takes YOUR kids away and puts them in some foster home somewhere?
Where will you be then, hunh Mr. "I want to toss the whole principle of constitutional rule of law aside like it was a used sandwich wrapper"?
You saying they were abused then? :)
I think it’s more like time for “Let’s slam the Texas CPS”, because they didn’t feel like meeting the proper legal requirements first before taking action. . .
Guaranteed, at least a few will prove before a court that their rights were violated, and the citizens of Texas will end up paying the bill. . .
That the FLDS are scum is obvious. That doesn’t mean we don’t have to do things by the book to nail their polygamous butts to the wall. . .
No.
He/she is asserting that we do not yet KNOW what they are.
And there IS a legal definition of polygamist. If they do NOT fit that defintition then they are NOT considered polygamists under the law. And the LAW is all that should matter to the State. Unfortunately an alarming number people, like you, get LAW and MORALITY confused.
There is not (and God help us I hope there never will be) a LAW against everything YOU consider immoral.
I was wrong about that.
All they have to do, to prove child abuse is do a comprehensive mapping of DNA of these children and their underage mothers.
I am convinced such evidence would demonstrate multi-generational, systemitized incest which is illegal and abusive.
The problem Rick, is too many people here are thinking with their hearts just like liberals do.
They aren’t thinking with their heads.
Whether the FLDS is polygamous or not, I would rather have 10000 of them as neighbors before I’d be comfortable having one person from the CPS of any state living in my neighborhood.
As somebody else explained, I guess there is no way to charge them if they don’t actually have real marriage licenses. Calling themselves polygamists is not enough to charge them even. They have to have the the real licenses.
In which case, there really is nothing that can be done unfortunately unless it is proven they abused the children.
I guess I didn’t quite understand the case. I just believed what the media had been saying....
The children did not have broken bones....
This place is a farm for breeding sex slaves. Simple as that.
Which, I guess carries a certain erotic charge.
The children are isolated and married off young, utterly dominated and confused as to their rights to live their own lives. The boys are abandoned by the side of the road when they become old enough to offer any kind of challenge to the horny old goats that run the place. Picture being the brother of one of these girls who is about to be bred by an old bull who is a relative several times over--
This case is hell to try to manage. The judges who think that there is no endangerment lack common sense. I feel for the people who finally tried to rescue these kids with the history of Waco in their minds--likely authorities have been trying to find an angle for years.
What you don't do is take the neighbor's kids as well from the whole community then leave the criminals to walk free. Which is exactly what CPS has done.
Right now only the children have been really punished. Only the children have had to face a judge in court, and not even their own hearings at that but instead of group hearing of all of them. That's not how we run trials in the USA.
The alleged criminals are still walking free on their ranch and can come and go anytime they want. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if more then a few have fled the State or maybe even the country. Not one has been arrested, not one charge has been filed.
Walking free men while the innocent children are being punished by CPS and Texas justice. That's not justice, that's a travesty.
I’m down with any individual rights that does no harm to you in any way. If a man wants the torture of having 3 wives, it’s none of your business to tell them they must live otherwise. It’s not my thing, but...
>>That is why they were removed, but since polygamy is illegal, the removal was justified on that grounds alone.<<
If that is the premise, then when are the CPS people going to take Muslim kids from their polygamous homes? Nope, don’t think so!
These people were preyed upon and then abused...by the state of Texas. It was the women and children who were forced from their homes, however you feel about FLDS, the sad fact is that these kids were used as pawns and surprise! surprise! IT WAS ILLEGAL.
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