Mormon and Black

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | June 6, 2008 | Peggy Fletcherr Stack

[greyfoxx39]

The first time she was ever called the most offensive of racial slurs, Tamu Smith was in the Salt Lake LDS temple.

An elderly man spied Smith, a new bride, and asked aloud what a [racial epithet] was doing there. Instead of reprimanding him, temple workers defended him, saying he didn't know better.

Smith didn't leave the LDS Church over such hurtful language then, and she remains faithful, but frustrated, nearly 15 years later. She will join other Mormons this week to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the June 8, 1978, revelation that opened the church's priesthood to "all worthy men," including those of African descent, and marked a new era for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

President Spencer W. Kimball's revelation brought a string of firsts for the church: first black missionary; first black bishop; first black couple married in the temple; first black men ordained in Los Angeles, Rio de Janeiro, Jamaica, Nigeria; first black general authority. It also brought relief to many white Mormons mortified by charges of racism leveled at them and their church.

Notably, it also opened Africa to Mormon missionaries, a great boon to the church. Today, 255,050 Latter-day Saints hail from Nigeria in the west to Kenya and Ethiopia in the east to Zimbabwe and South Africa in the south.

More than 2,000 African men now serve as mission presidents,

regional, stake, district and congregational leaders, counselors, as patriarchs and in temple presidencies. In some countries, there are even second-generation African Latter-day Saints.

"I love being part of this church," says Noelle Nkoy, who lived in the Democratic Republic of Congo for most of her childhood.

For Africans, it's a new day in the church. Its racist past is not taught and, by those who know, it's viewed as irrelevant.

African-Americans are joining in record numbers, too, especially in places such as Harlem. But for some, the challenge of being the only black face in the congregation can be disconcerting. They sometimes feel slighted or, worse, patronized by white Mormons. And when they discover the historic mistreatment of LDS blacks, some feel a sense of betrayal and many slip from the fold.

"I don't mind defending my faith to my black friends and family," Smith says, "but I do mind having to defend my race to my fellow Mormons."

The never-ending story: Smith knew nothing about the priesthood ban when she joined at age 11 with her grandparents, but she did sense antagonism from Pentecostal relatives who saw the LDS Church as racist. Still, she felt a strong spiritual connection to Mormonism and maintained her faith even after her grandparents dropped out.

Smith met her white husband, Keith Smith, in a Fresno, Calif., ward. It wasn't until they moved to Rexburg, Idaho, that she confronted serious racism among Mormons.

"Everything was white there. The snow was white. The culture was white. The food was white," Smith says. "If this church is so true, where are all the black people? I needed to find out if I was having a unique experience."

So she read the journals of Mormon founder Joseph Smith, who publicly opposed slavery and ordained at least one black man, Elijah Abel.

"Joseph seemed impartial, even ahead of his time. He had a kind heart toward blacks," she says. "But there was a different spirit in Brigham [Young's] journals."

Young brought prejudices common in America at the time into the Mormon faith, sociologist Armand Mauss wrote. No longer were men with even a drop of African blood allowed to be ordained to the priesthood, which otherwise was available to virtually all males starting at 12. Blacks could still be members, but couldn't be leaders, serve missions or be married in one of the faith's temples.

Tamu Smith discovered all this in a pamphlet produced by the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers.

"It was a sad story, but it made me feel somewhat better," she says. "I wasn't alone."

Shifting answers: Mormons explained the ban with the same scriptures other Christian groups used to defend practices such as slavery, Mauss wrote.

The notion that "blacks are cursed" began with the biblical story of Noah's three sons, Shem, Japheth and Ham. Descendants of Shem, the oldest, were believed to be the preferred race the Semites or Jews and Arabs. Japheth, the next son, was the father of "other white or yellow races."

In the ninth chapter of Genesis, the Bible says that because Ham saw his father's naked body, he and his descendants were cursed to be the "servant of servants." To this justification, Mormons added a unique twist: that blacks were somehow "less valiant" than other races in the spirit world before this life, so-called fence-sitters in the War in Heaven.

Such theories continue to circulate among some Latter-day Saints and find support in quasi-official publications such as Mormon Doctrine and the Mortal Messiah series by Bruce R. McConkie, an influential LDS apostle who died in 1985. Attempts to get the church to repudiate these notions have been rebuffed.

"This folklore is not part of and never was taught as doctrine by the church," LDS spokesman Mark Tuttle said this week, adding that the church has no policy against interracial marriage, nor does it teach that everyone in heaven will be white.

The official LDS position is that only God knows why it took so long to eliminate the ban, but that's a cop-out, says Darron Smith, a University of Utah doctoral student who is serving in the Utah Army National Guard at Fort Sill, Okla. "We don't know why the Lord did this? Bullshit. It's called racism."

He believes all Latter-day Saints deserve an apology.

Such outspokenness two years ago led to Brigham Young University's decision not to renew his assistant-lecturer contract.

"Part of what hasn't happened in 30 years is open dialogue," Smith said. "People aren't as forthcoming because they're scared of repercussions, of being disciplined for speaking their experience. . . . Are you supposed to suppress your feelings for the good of the church or embrace controversy? Controversy presents opportunities for growth."

He's committed to his Mormon faith and simply wants "the church to be what it says it is" and to reach what he trusts is its full potential.

Signs of hope: Black Mormons hope the more people know about the church's racist past, the more progress toward healing they'll see. Better information is what Darius Gray and Margaret Blair Young hope they've provided in their groundbreaking documentary, "Nobody Knows: The Untold Story of Black Mormons."

Gray, the author and businessman who led Genesis, a support group for black Mormons, from 1997 to 2003, and Young, his co-author on a trilogy tracing the history of LDS blacks, have previewed the documentary at film festivals. It will be available for general release later this summer, and includes never-released footage of interviews shot in 1968 and rare archival photographs as well as interviews with members, social scientists, clergy and historians.

"This is not a sanitized nor a bitter piece. We are neither proselytizing nor bashing," Gray says. "It's a chance for black Mormons to share their joys, excitement, sadness and struggles."

Gray, Young and many others were pleased by Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland's recent statements about blacks in the church.

Racist folklore must "never be perpetuated," Holland told filmmaker Helen Whitney in her PBS documentary about the Mormons. "However well-intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong."

They were also gratified to hear the late President Gordon B. Hinckley condemn racism in strong language during the church's annual General Conference in 2006.

"I am told that racial slurs and denigrating remarks are sometimes heard among us," Hinckley said during the all-male priesthood session. "I remind you that no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church of Christ. How can any man holding the Melchizedek Priesthood arrogantly assume that he is eligible for the priesthood whereas another who lives a righteous life but whose skin is of a different color is ineligible?"

Hinckley's words were welcome, but they weren't enough for many.

"For racism to stop, we need to hear it condemned at Conference as often as pornography or abuse are," Tamu Smith says. "The brethren don't want to open up old wounds, but those wounds have never healed."

[greyfoxx39]

If McCain hopes to win over the Hillary supporters, having Mitt as his VP will be a turn off to these liberals white liberals once Obama uses facts like these in campaign commercials.

[greyfoxx39]

Ping

[AppyPappy]

In the ninth chapter of Genesis, the Bible says that because Ham saw his father's naked body, he and his descendants were cursed to be the "servant of servants." To this justification, Mormons added a unique twist: that blacks were somehow "less valiant" than other races in the spirit world before this life, so-called fence-sitters in the War in Heaven. Such theories continue to circulate among some Latter-day Saints and find support in quasi-official publications such as Mormon Doctrine and the Mortal Messiah series by Bruce R. McConkie, an influential LDS apostle who died in 1985. Attempts to get the church to repudiate these notions have been rebuffed.

Strange. It's almost like they see nothing wrong with the idea. Clearly it is a misinterpretation of something. No one could believe that.

[Vigilanteman]

And I am sure white liberals are going to vote for John McCain in record numbers as long as he doesn’t have Mitt Romney in the VP slot. < / sarcasm >

[rhombus]

And I am sure white liberals are going to vote for John McCain in record numbers as long as he doesn’t have Mitt Romney in the VP slot. < / sarcasm >

Why sure... clearly they are really upset about Harry Reid and his church's racism of 30 years ago...Old Harry better watch out for those white liberals...snicker, snicker... Can't we go back to acusing each other of being polygamist child molesters here in the echo chamber? /sarcasm

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

If McCain hopes to win over the Hillary supporters, having Mitt as his VP will be a turn off to these liberals white liberals once Obama uses facts like these in campaign commercials

You have blue dogs and you have yellow dogs. Reagan got the blue dogs. The lunch bucket crowd is not really liberal. They are populist. The yellow dogs will not switch. It's the blue dogs that will. Now, you have to ask, where do the blue dogs stand on Mormons?

[greyfoxx39]

Sorry, I don’t follow your argument. Care to make it a little plainer?

[ElectricStrawberry]

Damn....I thought this was all about Snoop Dogg.

[greyfoxx39]

Naw...Gladys Knight.

[MEGoody]

Old folks, no matter what church they attend (or even if they don't attend church at all) will sometimes say whatever pops into their heads. Something about getting old reduces that thing in your brain that helps you think before speaking.

Nevertheless, he should have been chastised for saying it, not defended.

[Vigilanteman]

Funny, isn't it, how the “Mormons are worse than Al Qaida” crowd is conspicuously absent on any thread dealing with Dingy Harry?

[svcw]

African-Americans are joining in record numbers, too, especially in places such as Harlem. But for some, the challenge of being the only black face in the congregation can be disconcerting. They sometimes feel slighted or, worse, patronized by white Mormons. And when they discover the historic mistreatment of LDS blacks, some feel a sense of betrayal and many slip from the fold.

It just may be be me. Blacks joining in records numbers but feel slighted and patronized.....doesn't that seem like a contradictory statement.

[svcw]

Who said that?

[colorcountry]

I think it “funny” (strange) how conspicuously absent Mormons are on these threads concerning the racial discrimination against blacks that was only eradicated 30 years ago in Mormonism.

You’d think they’d be apologizing or something, for the “misunderstanding” their prophets had concerning scripture for almost 150 years.

[colorcountry]

Blacks joining in records numbers but feel slighted and patronized.....doesn't that seem like a contradictory statement.

Not really. They join before they discover the historic mistreatment of LDS blacks. What I would find contradictory is if they STAY.

[rhombus]

But don’t question their bigotry... oh no not them...you are the bigot. We played all these same games during the primary.

[ikka]

Mormonism = heretical offshoot of Christianity. THAT is why they didn’t get it right until 1978.

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

Sorry, I don’t follow your argument. Care to make it a little plainer?

Maybe this will help.

[Graybeard58]

Mormonism = heretical offshoot of Christianity. THAT is why they didn’t get it right until 1978.

They got the racism part right in 1978.

[Angry Write Mail]

The truth is - the LDS ending its racist practices had nothing to do with "revelation". It had everything to do with the U.S. government exerting strong pressure on the church to end its racism - or lose its tax exempt status.

[Vigilanteman]

This certified moonbat, for just one example, declares a terrorist attack by Al Qaida an "insignifigant earthly worry" as compared to the dangers of Mormonism.

Funny thing is, I've had Momon missionaries stop by to help me rake leaves, chat or get a cold drink on a hot day, but they've never once threatened to cut off my head or consign my soul to hell if I didn't convert.

[greyfoxx39]

I’m aware of what a “blue dog” is..what I don’t understand is what your point is.

[Godzilla]

Mormon and Black

White and nerdy?

[greyfoxx39]

Ping to another personal attack at #21.

[colorcountry]

LOL

[svcw]

I am unable to see the quote you are referring to.

[colorcountry]

Come on Vigilanteman, admit it. You have a “thing” for me don’tcha??

[greyfoxx39]

Colorcountry appears to be making YOU miserable enough to run off to another thread to find something to attack her over.

What possible interest could you have in her place of residence or her supposed state of mind?

The solution is real easy, just avoid reading her posts.

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

Only blue dogs will vote Republican. They are the ones who went with Reagan. What do you mean by white liberals? Are they blue dogs? I don't think so. The idea that white liberals, yellow dogs, would ever vote Republican defies logic and experience. Whether or not Romney is on the ticket is irrelevant to the voting habits of a yellow dog.

[Old Mountain man]

I would like to see you defend the current segregation in the Baptist Churches in the south. You know, the thousands of congregations where black folks are not welcome even today.

Go ahead, I would be interested to see you harp on something besides the LDS Church.

[greyfoxx39]

Do you have your own little club who thinks Mormons are more dangerous than Al Qaida?

Do you have your own little club who thinks that anything published about mormon history is taboo? It appears you do.

Now just think how much good you could do if you'd focus all that energy on not worrying about what others say about mormons, especially when it's the truth.

To quote your post: "I do not trust people who call themselves conservative and yet repeatedly demonstrate they are more interested in shooting at people in our own trenches".... for bringing to light subjects that are unpalatable to vigilanteman."

Your ammo would be better spent in firing it at targets whose armor is not so battle-hardened.

[colorcountry]

People segregate themselves into groups based upon personal preferrences. Some Baptists Churches in Utah are predominantly black. They have a different style of worship.

What we are talking about here is a systematic, institutional discrimination based upon the pigment in someone’s skin. There is nothing similar happening in today’s Church, even though some congregations have different racial makeups. I’ve even got a Vietnamese Catholic Church just down the street from me. I’m sure there are Vietnamese and blacks that are ordained with the same rights as other 12 year olds.

[Old Mountain man]

And there is NO systematic, institutional racism in the LDS Church either. Glad we can agree on something except that in the southern United States there are still segregated congregations. Of Baptists.

[colorcountry]

Yep, they segregate themselves based upon style of worship.

That’s like saying the Mormons have segregated themselves from the Catholics. It is about style and belief and not necessarly because Mormons don’t like Italians or hispanics.

[Old Mountain man]

Now just you wait one minute. I am an ex-baptist and thus more of an expert on them than you can ever become (according to your own rules about ex-members) and I am telling you that there are thousands of congregations in the South that are segregated by race because of race. According to your rules, you are supposed to accept that as fact because I say it.

[Elsie]

For Africans, it's a new day in the church. Its racist past is not taught and, by those who know, it's viewed as irrelevant.

HMMMmmm...

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"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.

 

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Here are two examples from their 'bible', the Book of Mormon.

  2 Nephi 5: 21    'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

  Alma 3: 6    'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'

 

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August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."

"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."

"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)

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 1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."

 

 

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We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.

According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.

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Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.

The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."

(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).

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When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."

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When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."

(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)

 

 

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(From --->  http://www.i4m.com/think/comments/mormon-racism.htm )

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Does ANYONE think that if it's Obama/Whomever vs McCain/Romney; these HISTORY FACTS will stay HIDDEN???

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Timeline:

1:34        It's behind us...

2:12        Don't worry about those little flicks of history...

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It's behind us!

 

Don't worry!!

[Elsie]

African-Americans are joining in record numbers, too, especially in places such as Harlem.

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OFFICIAL DECLARATION—2

 

To Whom It May Concern:

On September 30, 1978, at the 148th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was presented by President N. Eldon Tanner, First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church:

 

In early June of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been received by President Spencer W. Kimball extending priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy male members of the Church. President Kimball has asked that I advise the conference that after he had received this revelation, which came to him after extended meditation and prayer in the sacred rooms of the holy temple, he presented it to his counselors, who accepted it and approved it. It was then presented to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who unanimously approved it, and was subsequently presented to all other General Authorities, who likewise approved it unanimously.

President Kimball has asked that I now read this letter:

 

June 8, 1978

 

To all general and local priesthood officers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world:

 

Dear Brethren:

 

As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have responded to the message of the restored gospel, and have joined the Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the privileges and blessings which the gospel affords.

 

Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance.

 

He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple. Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color. Priesthood leaders are instructed to follow the policy of carefully interviewing all candidates for ordination to either the Aaronic or the Melchizedek Priesthood to insure that they meet the established standards for worthiness.

 

We declare with soberness that the Lord has now made known his will for the blessing of all his children throughout the earth who will hearken to the voice of his authorized servants, and prepare themselves to receive every blessing of the gospel.

 

Sincerely yours,

Spencer W. Kimball
N. Eldon Tanner
Marion G. Romney

The First Presidency

Recognizing Spencer W. Kimball as the prophet, seer, and revelator, and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it is proposed that we as a constituent assembly accept this revelation as the word and will of the Lord. All in favor please signify by raising your right hand. Any opposed by the same sign.

 

The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous in the affirmative.

 

Salt Lake City, Utah, September 30, 1978.

The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ladyjane]

You’re right. One of the funniest things I ever read on FR was the post about a freeper who took his father to church one Sunday. As I remember the story they had non-traditional music and a young woman got up and did some kind of dance. When she was finished the freeper’s hard of hearing dad said in a loud voice, “What the hell was that?”

[colorcountry]

Yep, a agree with you. Why are you arguing?

[Elsie]

 

The notion that "blacks are cursed" began with the biblical story of Noah's three sons, Shem, Japheth and Ham. Descendants of Shem, the oldest, were believed to be the preferred race the Semites or Jews and Arabs. Japheth, the next son, was the father of "other white or yellow races."

In the ninth chapter of Genesis, the Bible says that because Ham saw his father's naked body, he and his descendants were cursed to be the "servant of servants." To this justification, Mormons added a unique twist: that blacks were somehow "less valiant" than other races in the spirit world before this life, so-called fence-sitters in the War in Heaven.

Such theories continue to circulate among some Latter-day Saints and find support in quasi-official publications such as Mormon Doctrine and the Mortal Messiah series by Bruce R. McConkie, an influential LDS apostle who died in 1985. Attempts to get the church to repudiate these notions have been rebuffed.

 

 

HUH???

 

I guess them Mormon 'scholars' don't READ too well!!

 

 

 

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.

 

Let's just see about this CURSE:

Genesis 4:9-15
   9.  Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"   "I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"
 10.  The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.
 11.  Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.
 12.  When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth."
 13.  Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear.
 14.  Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
 15.  But the LORD said to him, "Not so ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.

If Cain was not born with this characteristic - and he was not -- then in the ordinary course of nature, his descendents would not inherit it.
While God could certainly change Cain's genetic make-up if He willed the 'mark' to be inherited, where in the text does it suggest He wished to do so?

The text says NOTHING about folks killing Cain's OFFSPRING - just HIM.

Even if the 'mark of Cain' were imagined to be heritable versus 'a tattoo', where does the text even hint that the 'mark' is 'black complexion', versus 'a birthmark shaped like the State of Utah'!

 

 

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Here is where Cain's descendants went:

Genesis 4:16-26
 16.  So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod,  east of Eden.
 17.  Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.
 18.  To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.
 19.  Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah.
 20.  Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock.
 21.  His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute.
 22.  Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of  bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.
 23.  Lamech said to his wives, "Adah and Zillah, listen to me; wives of Lamech, hear my words. I have killed  a man for wounding me, a young man for injuring me.
 24.  If Cain is avenged seven times, then Lamech seventy-seven times."
 25.  Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,  saying, "God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him."
 26.  Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.   At that time men began to call on  the name of the LORD.

 

Genesis 5
 1.  This is the written account of Adam's line.   When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
 2.  He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. "
 3.  When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
 4.  After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.
 5.  Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.
 6.  When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father  of Enosh.
 7.  And after he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters.
 8.  Altogether, Seth lived 912 years, and then he died.
 9.  When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan.
 10.  And after he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters.
 11.  Altogether, Enosh lived 905 years, and then he died.
 12.  When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel.
 13.  And after he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters.
 14.  Altogether, Kenan lived 910 years, and then he died.
 15.  When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared.
 16.  And after he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters.
 17.  Altogether, Mahalalel lived 895 years, and then he died.
 18.  When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch.
 19.  And after he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.
 20.  Altogether, Jared lived 962 years, and then he died.
 21.  When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah.
 22.  And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters.
 23.  Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years.
 24.  Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
 25.  When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech.
 26.  And after he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters.
 27.  Altogether, Methuselah lived 969 years, and then he died.
 28.  When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son.
 29.  He named him Noah  and said, "He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed."
 30.  After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters.
 31.  Altogether, Lamech lived 777 years, and then he died.
 32.  After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.

 

Continuing...

Genesis 6
   1.  When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,
   2.  the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
   3.  Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with  man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
   4.  The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
   5.  The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
   6.  The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
   7.  So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them."
   8.  But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
   9.  This is the account of Noah.   Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
 10.  Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

 

Nowhere does the text say that the sons of Noah went over to the area where Cain's descendants were living for a wife.

 

Now things have dried out...

 

Gene

sis 9:20-27
 20.  Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded  to plant a vineyard.
 21.  When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.
 22.  Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside.
 23.  But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.
 24.  When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him,
 25.  he said, "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers."
 26.  He also said, "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem.
 27.  May God extend the territory of Japheth ; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave."

 

Ok, now you got SLAVES mentioned, but nowhere does the text say these 'slaves' had black skin.

 

(I find it interesting the HAM was the bad boy in this account, yet it is CANAAN that is cursed!!!)

 

 

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So, from the Bible, I cannot tell you WHERE  black skin came from; only that it CAN'T be proven (from the Bible) where it did.

 

Can anyone show us, from the BoM, where it did?

 

 

 

[Elsie]

Funny, isn't it, how the “Mormons are worse than Al Qaida” crowd is conspicuously absent on any thread dealing with Dingy Harry?

You got post #11. It's early yet.

[Godzilla]

This certified moonbat, for just one example,

This appears to be bringing an arguement in from or trying to continue an arguement from another thread. IIRC, such is not permitted here.

[Elsie]

Not really. They join before they discover the historic mistreatment of LDS blacks. What I would find contradictory is if they STAY.

It's no different than a lot of WHITE folks who find out the LDS Organization® is NOT what they thought it was!

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Author Ed Decker, a former Mormon who has been one of the religion's staunchest critics for decades, says a vast majority of people who convert to Mormonism leave the religion within a year because they realize it's not Christian.

Decker's latest book is called My Kingdom Come: A Mormon Quest for Godhood. He says the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sends out about 60,000 volunteer missionaries around the world -- but most of the 300,000 annual converts, he notes, do not stick around.

"Eighty percent [of converts] actually leave the Mormon church within the first year," states Decker. "They go there thinking this is a Christian church and then they sit down in the congregation and begin to listen to what is being said from the pulpit ... [and] by the leaders ... [and] in the classes, and they realize that this is not Christian and they get out."

Decker offers his explanation of why such a high percentage of converts leave the church so soon. "They don't tell [the converts] the details about men becoming gods and getting many goddess wives and presiding over their own planets," he shares. "And they leave out the esoteric theology of Mormonism that separates it from Christianity."

The author says even many of the missionaries themselves become disillusioned. "Fifty percent of the Mormons who fulfill their missions leave the church within two years, and 25 percent of them walk off the mission field because they know they're presenting lies," adds Decker.

According to Decker, any growth of Mormonism in the U.S. is from babies being born into the religion by Mormon parents.

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2 Nephi 3:12     Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins write; and the fruit of thy loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins of Judah, shall grow together,

2 Nephi 3:18      And the Lord said unto me also: I will raise up unto the fruit of thy loins; and I will make for him a spokesman. And I, behold, I will give unto him that he shall write the writing of the fruit of thy loins, unto the fruit of thy loins; and the spokesman of thy loins shall declare it.

 

Joseph Smith Translation Gen. 50: 27   Thus saith the Lord God of my fathers unto me, A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren.

Joseph Smith Translation Gen. 50: 31    Wherefore the fruit of thy loins shall write, and the fruit of thy loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins of Judah, shall grow together

[colorcountry]

Indeed, in June 1978 (in close conjunction with the conveniently-produced Mormon Church announcement that its racist doctrine was supposedly being shelved according to divine will), then-LDS Church president Spencer W. Kimball saw fit to remind Latter-day Saints that this magical Mormon move did not mean the LDS Church was now open to, and encouraging of, interracial marriage.

Indeed, quite to the contrary, Kimball strongly criticized race-barrier breaking when it came to marrying across genetically pigmented and polarized lines, saying that it was a “unanimous” view held by “the Brethren” that such marriages were not to be encouraged.

This Mormon anti-race mixing decree, as officially declared in 1978 by LDS Church president Kimball, has never been invalidated or reversed by the Mormon Church and, hence, still stands as an offically-sanctioned legacy to Mormonism’s ongoing, bigoted and White supremacist doctrinal belief system.

(This racist reality is made all the more relevant and “revealing,” so to speak, in current times, given that the White American mother of a mixed-race Black/White U.S. presidential candidate married a Black man of Kenyan descent, resulting in the birth of their child who—according to both Mormon Church president Kimball and the Mormon Church teaching that Kimball prejudicially peddled—represents a blended-race result that is not in keeping with the doctrinal desires of Mormonism’s White God).

Let us examine the LDS Church’s actual anti-race mixing prejudicial preaching which—lest one forget—remains to this day a firmly embedded belief within the institutional framework of Mormon racist teachings.
_____

—Crossing Racial Lines is Bad for the Breed—

LDS Church president Spencer W. Kimball, it turns out, like any good and faithful Mormon, was a White supremacist of the first order. Hear his words:

“Now, the Brethren feel that it is not the wisest thing to cross racial lines in dating and marrying. There is no condemnation.

“We have had some of our fine young people who have crossed the lines. We hope they will be very happy, but experience of the brethren through a hundred years has proved to us that marriage is a very difficult thing under any circumstances and the difficulty increases in interrace marriages” (Spencer W. Kimball, Brigham Young University devotional, 5 January 1965)

“When I said you must teach your people to overcome their prejudices and accept the Indians, I did not mean that you would encourage intermarriage.

“I mean that they should be brothers, to worship together and to work together and to play together; but we must discourage intermarriage, not because it is sin.

“I would like to make this very emphatic. A couple has not committed sin if an Indian boy and a white girl are married, or vice versa. It isn’t a transgression like the transgressions of which many are guilty.

“But it is not expedient. Marriage statistics and our general experience convince us that marriage is not easy. It is difficult when all factors are favorable. The divorces increase constantly, even where the spouses have the same general background of race, religion, finances, education, and otherwise. “ (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball,” p. 302)

“The interrace marriage problem is not one of inferiority or superiority. It may be that your son is better educated and may be superior in his culture, and yet it may be on the other hand that she is superior to him.

“It is a matter of backgrounds. The difficulties and hazards of marriage are greatly increased where backgrounds are different. For a wealthy person to marry a pauper promises difficulties. For an ignoramus to marry one with a doctor’s degree promises difficulties, heartaches, misunderstandings, and broken marriages.

“When one considers marriage, it should be an unselfish thing, but there is not much selflessness when two people of different races plan marriage. They must be thinking selfishly of themselves. They certainly are not considering the problems that will beset each other and that will beset their children.

“If your son thinks he loves this girl, he would not want to inflict upon her loneliness and unhappiness; and if he thinks that his affection for her will solve all her problems, he should do some more mature thinking.

“We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs.” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball,” p. 303)

[Elsie]

The truth is - the LDS ending its racist practices had nothing to do with "revelation". It had everything to do with the U.S. government exerting strong pressure on the church to end its racism - or lose its tax exempt status.

HMMMmmm...

This sounds AWFULLY similar to the 'revelation' to end polygamy!!

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1890: Manifesto (a statement denouncing polygamy)

"Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriage...I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws..."

~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President

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The Mormon church Organization; based in Salt Lake City, does not practice Polygamy any more.

They decided to stop the practice for fear of losing all their worldly goods.

It was banned in 1890!.

  

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    OFFICIAL DECLARATION—1

To Whom It May Concern:

Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy—

I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.

One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.

There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

WILFORD WOODRUFF
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

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President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:

“I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.”

The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.

Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.

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EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTO

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .

I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .

The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.

The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.

. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .

I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us.

(Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)

 

 

 

Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it.

 

(From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)

 

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What kind of  'Leadership' is THIS???

 

compared to...

 

 

 

 

Hebrews 11:35-40
 35.  Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
 36.  Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison.
 37.  They were stoned ; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated--
 38.  the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 
 

 

 

So much for an 'Everlasting Covenant' that thundered out of Heaven!!!

 

Well; it DID last about 47 years!

[Elsie]

Ha ha!

You are certified!

(Can BONAFIDE be far behind; Everett?)

[Elsie]

I am unable to see the quote you are referring to.

That's becuase you share MOONBAT genes!

--MormonDude(Don't you KNOW that bats are BLIND??)

[Elsie]

But; as we can tell from your posting history; you are not a BARKING moonbat!