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Nineteen Catholic Senators Voted To Confirm Pro-Abortion HHS Nominee Sebelius
Pew Sitter ^ | May 6, 2009 | Lisa Correnti

Posted on 05/06/2009 8:47:15 AM PDT by presidio9

The Senate voted 65-31 to confirm Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius as President Obama's Secretary of Health and Human Services. Just last week Sebelius again denied protection to the unborn when she vetoed a bill that would provide increased regulations on performing late term abortions.

Nineteen Catholic Senators supported the Sebelius nomination and six Catholic Senators opposed. Two Catholic senators who are ardently pro-life supported the governor; Senator Sam Brownback and Senator George Voinovich. Senator Brownback announced his support early on which was a surprise and a major disappointment to many in the pro-life movement.

Senator Murkowski, who has a mixed voting record on life issues, voted against Sebelius.

Senator Casey who campaigned in 2006 as pro-life has a voting record on life issues that fluctuates. In January he was publicly admonished by his local ordinary, Bishop Martino, for an anti-life vote opposing an amendment to reinstate the Mexico Policy. In a letter thanking the Senator for his support of a subsequent life issue vote, Bishop Martino called on Senator Casey to oppose Sebelius as HHS Secretary. Senator Casey did not heed the request of his local Ordinary. In a statement released by the Scranton Diocese regarding Sen. Casey's vote, Bishop Martino said he was "deeply disappointed." It went on to say that the Bishop would continue to monitor Senator Casey's positions and "if necessary future determinations will be made regarding whether Sen. Casey is worthy to receive Holy Communion. However, at this point Bishop Martino believes it is incumbent upon Sen. Casey to reflect on his actions and ask himself if he should receive the sacrament."

Sebelius' confirmation hearing had been stalled due to a report that she was not forthcoming on her relationship with late term abortionist Dr. George Tiller. The AP revealed that Governor Sebelius underreported the campaign money she had received from the abortionist and the pro-life organization Operation Rescue released a document showing Dr. Tiller contributed $200,000 to defeat Kathleen Sebelius’ challenger in the 2002 Kansas gubernatorial race.

A strong effort by the pro-life community and conservative family groups to defeat the nomination was met by an equally strong effort on behalf of abortion rights groups. NARAL claimed responsibility for 22,000 messages to senators.

Gov. Sebelius' local Ordinary, Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann of Kansas City, concerned about another high profile pro-abortion rights Catholic, made the following comments in an interview with Our Sunday Visitor when her nomination was first announced:

"...I think from the church’s point of view, it’s sad because it places another high-profile, pro-abortion Catholic into national leadership along with Vice President (Joe) Biden and Speaker (Nancy) Pelosi and a raft of others that are in the Congress. And so I think it makes our job as bishops more challenging, because we have to be even more clear that this is not acceptable for a person in public service to say that they are Catholic and then to support these policies that are anti-life, you know go against the most fundamental of all human rights, the preservation of innocent life."

Fr. Euteneuer, President of HLI made the following statment on the Sebelius nomination and Senator Brownback's decision to support her:

"The situation is atrocious. An extremist abortion hack (called the most pro-abortion governor in the nation by many), who falsely calls herself "Catholic," is given the opportunity to preside over the nation's healthcare system and normalize abortion even further; this radical is then endorsed by a US senator who also calls himself "Catholic" and who, many believe, wants her job back home when she becomes the abortion queen in DC."

As Secretary of Health and Human Services, Sebelius will no doubt advance abortion rights, and affect policy on conscience protection, embryonic stem cell research and end of life decisions.

To view the list of Senators and how they voted, including how the Catholic Senators voted go to OneNationUnderGod.org


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: 111th; abortion; bhohhs; catholic; catholicpoliticians; cinos; cult; kathleensebelius; moralabsolutes; presidiot9; proaborts
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1 posted on 05/06/2009 8:47:16 AM PDT by presidio9
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To: presidio9

Did Tiller the Killer give them campaign cash too?


2 posted on 05/06/2009 8:48:35 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: presidio9
Yep. Mary Landrieu of Louisiana was one of them. She is also pro-abortion. Remember that when it comes time to vote people!
3 posted on 05/06/2009 8:51:05 AM PDT by Bitsy
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: presidio9

Here is another tragedy of the Roman Catholic Church. The “membership” in the organization assures that those taking unbiblical stands for infanticide can still be considered members, whereas folks holding to a biblical Gospel of Christ simply turn their backs on these renegades and note that they are not really believers. No membership to revoke, no name to claim, just treat them as unbelievers. Rome is stuck with these renegades until they officially excommunicate them. Even then, some renegade “priest” will bring them back into the fold as a hero (Notre Dame, Boston College, etc.). Sad.


5 posted on 05/06/2009 8:54:13 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: presidio9

Apparently, it just doesn’t mean anything to be Catholic in America any longer.

What a great poverty that is. The Devil has taken us over.

OMG. Help us.


6 posted on 05/06/2009 8:54:24 AM PDT by RexBeach ("Do your duty in all things." Robert E. Lee)
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To: presidio9
All of them are corrupt.

1 trillion to socialized disaster medicine here we go...

7 posted on 05/06/2009 8:54:48 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
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To: presidio9

OK, folks - as much as we Catholics bash those Cath pols who are pro-abortion, this vote of Brownback’s should NEVER be forgotten and he should ALWAYS be reminded of it - no excuse. He did NOT have to vote for her - she was in anyway -so he should have voted his principals....shame!


8 posted on 05/06/2009 8:56:08 AM PDT by matginzac
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To: presidio9

They must care more about their POWER here on earth, than the afterlife. They will enjoy the VERY WARM place with the master they serve there.


9 posted on 05/06/2009 8:58:10 AM PDT by buffyt (Jesus Is God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: presidio9

Sam Brownback is a traitor. Never to be trusted again.


10 posted on 05/06/2009 8:58:33 AM PDT by Antoninus (Now accepting apologies from repentant Mittens.)
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To: Baynative

YEP....what you’re “supposed” to be now....is a brain that’s an EMPTY SLATE.....ready to be molded by whatever whims the cultural leaders want....i.e. whatever liberals say...


11 posted on 05/06/2009 9:00:46 AM PDT by goodnesswins (WE have a REPUBLIC.....IF we can KEEP IT!!!)
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To: presidio9

should read “former Catholics.”


12 posted on 05/06/2009 9:03:37 AM PDT by grellis (I am Jill's overwhelming sense of disgust.)
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To: Dutchboy88
whereas folks holding to a biblical Gospel of Christ simply turn their backs on these renegades and note that they are not really believers.

Sorry, I think I'm missing your point here. What were you trying to say?

13 posted on 05/06/2009 9:05:50 AM PDT by presidio9 (Hildy! Hildy! Hildy! Hildy! I'm posting about you without pinging you in. Deal with it Hildy.)
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To: presidio9
C’mon, folks, give’em a break.

It's APRIL of 2009! There aren't general elections for another 18 months. Who's gonna remember this THEN? Who even noticed?

Hey, not to derail the thread, but who do you think is gonna win Dancing with the Millionaires?

14 posted on 05/06/2009 9:14:25 AM PDT by South Hawthorne (In Memory of my Dear Friend Henry Lee II)
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To: presidio9

CINO’s all.


15 posted on 05/06/2009 9:15:15 AM PDT by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: Baynative

They were never good people if their ‘moral compass’ was so easily lost IMO. I doubt they had a strong one to begin with.


16 posted on 05/06/2009 9:18:25 AM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: presidio9

That the Roman Catholic Church has morphed into a gigantic organization; it is not the Body of Christ.


17 posted on 05/06/2009 9:18:45 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Owl_Eagle

There is nothing wrong with bringing this up. It needs to be brought up.


18 posted on 05/06/2009 9:21:02 AM PDT by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote.)
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To: wagglebee; DirtyHarryY2K; NYer

ping


19 posted on 05/06/2009 9:21:05 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Owl_Eagle

And believe it or not; someone will remember it.


20 posted on 05/06/2009 9:21:33 AM PDT by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote.)
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To: massgopguy
That says something about Catholic Senators. Or it says something about Senators. Or it says something about Catholics (If you are Catholic then are you contacting any Catholic Senators? Are you contacting your priest?)

Things that make you say, “hmmmm...”

Question: How many Senators call themselves, “Catholic?”

21 posted on 05/06/2009 9:25:11 AM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
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To: matginzac

Thank you & and God Bless you!


22 posted on 05/06/2009 9:26:49 AM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
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To: Dutchboy88
folks holding to a biblical Gospel of Christ simply turn their backs on these renegades and note that they are not really believers

Very convenient for you, but it doesn't really square with the parable of the wheat and the tares, does it ... ?

23 posted on 05/06/2009 9:27:18 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Campion

Yet another aberration of biblical theology through bad hermeneutics.


24 posted on 05/06/2009 9:32:10 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: kinsman redeemer
1) Anyone who actually cares about the question you asked can ask it of his favourite search engine and get his answer quickly.

Now, That says something about (Baptists|Methodists|Presbyterians|Lutherans|UCCs|Protestants) Senators. Or it says something about Senators. Or it says something about (Baptist|Methodist|Presbyterian|Lutheran|UCC|Protestant) (If you are (Baptist|Methodist|Presbyterian|Lutheran|UCC|Protestant) then are you contacting any (Baptist|Methodist|Presbyterian|Lutheran|UCC|Protestant) Senators? Are you contacting your pator?)regarding the vote to confirm Baby Killer Sebellius:

Things that make you say, “hmmmm...”

Question: How many Senators call themselves, “(Baptist|Methodist|Presbyterian|Lutheran|UCC|Protestant)?”

25 posted on 05/06/2009 9:33:36 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: presidio9

Senator Brownback announced his support early on which was a surprise and a major disappointment to many in the pro-life movement.
________________________________________

Didnt this guy run for the GOP POTUS nomination ???


26 posted on 05/06/2009 9:34:27 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Bitsy

They just voted her in again in 2008...the next opportunity to get rid of her is 2014.


27 posted on 05/06/2009 9:34:49 AM PDT by napscoordinator
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To: presidio9

How much longer is a cowardly group of shepherds (the bishops) going to allow the CINOs to self-reflect on their actions? Abortion is a sin that cries out to Heaven, and we are going to dialog? Give me a break.

Enough already, kick them out and watch how fast the garbage stops.


28 posted on 05/06/2009 9:35:48 AM PDT by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners.)
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To: NTHockey
On the one hand, I agree with you. No prisoners.

On the other, I can easily foresee that if the Bishops really got vigorous about defending the integrity of the "Catholic Brand" (so to speak), that anti-Catholic bigots across the country would be frothing at the mouth about "foreign potentates" in "Rome" presuming to "dictate" policy to the all-holy United States, and about "papists" being mindless robots following their "traditions of men". I can further foresee that some of these rabid jackasses would vent their collective spleen on this very forum.

Something to think about.

29 posted on 05/06/2009 9:41:25 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: presidio9

More anti-Catholic bias?


30 posted on 05/06/2009 9:49:21 AM PDT by MeneMeneTekelUpharsin (Freedom is the freedom to discipline yourself so others don't have to do it for you.)
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To: Dutchboy88
"Rome is stuck with these renegades until they officially excommunicate them."

Nope. They excommunicate themselves by their action. No recognition by the Church is necessary. The Church allows them to continue in a physical relationship with the church in hopes that they will recogize their errors and repent--but their mere physical presence does them no spiritual good UNLESS they confess, repent, and do penance.

31 posted on 05/06/2009 9:51:20 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog ( The Hog of Steel)
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To: kinsman redeemer

My Pastor is a big fan of my column. He’s also the Chaplain of my K of C Council.


32 posted on 05/06/2009 9:51:47 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: presidio9

I will never support Brownback again for anything. As far as I am concerned, this was a deal-breaker and he is in the sewer. As for Voinovitch, also disappointing, but less of a surprise.


33 posted on 05/06/2009 9:59:47 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: presidio9

These make-believe Catholics, Pelosi and Biden, stood next to Obama on the podium on Ash Wednesday, guess what they had on their foreheads - ashes. The hypocrisy and lies from those two is staggering. I hope the Church throws the bums out!


34 posted on 05/06/2009 10:02:01 AM PDT by Rockiette (Democrats are not intelligent)
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To: kinsman redeemer

Back at cha! :)


35 posted on 05/06/2009 10:02:21 AM PDT by matginzac
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To: presidio9

AND...What about those protestants that voted for her!!!


36 posted on 05/06/2009 10:05:09 AM PDT by notaliberal (Right-wing extremist)
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To: Cicero

Voinovich is a lowlife. Unfortunately, we have no modern Dante who could assign him to his proper level in Hell.


37 posted on 05/06/2009 10:07:28 AM PDT by Melchior
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To: presidio9

sad proof that the US Conference of Catholic Bishops has become even more political than the Senate


38 posted on 05/06/2009 10:19:24 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: napscoordinator
They just voted her in again in 2008...the next opportunity to get rid of her is 2014.

I know. She didn't have a strong enough opponent this time. By 2014 I hope we can finally rid ourselves of this self serving dem. She calls herself a moderate and when she runs for office she votes almost exactly like David Vitter (r) but when she wins she votes straight democrat no matter what (although I don't think she voted for the stimulus). She's a hypocrite! I'm ready to see her go!

39 posted on 05/06/2009 10:37:35 AM PDT by Bitsy
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To: Dutchboy88

40 posted on 05/06/2009 10:52:10 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Dutchboy88; B-Chan; Dr. Sivana; ninenot; ArrogantBustard; Petronski; annalex
Of course, that's where you and Jesus Christ disagree.

Also, excommunication from the Roman Catholic Church is a bit less of a drama than you and other non-Catholics suspect. It has long been the case that "Catholics" such as Sebelius and Christopher Dodd and Ted Kennedy and John Kerry and Rosa DeLauro and Patty Murray and Nancy Pelosi and so very many more in our public life have incurred automatic excommunication (latae sententiae under Canon Law). It is not necessary to do a formal auto da fe (however colorful and just and exemplary) nor to do a public ritual of bell, book and candle.

Before you are tempted to say that Canon Law is a tradition of men and not Scriptural, check Matthew 16: 13 et seq. and particularly verses 18 and 19 as to Petrine power and authority. Pope Benedict XV issued a codification of Canon Law during the World War I period and the current codification was issued by Pope John Paul II in the 1980s.

The Roman Catholic Church in our time comprises about 20% of living persons. To the best of our knowledge, each and every one is a sinner. It is a gigantic organization but regrettably not as gigantic as it ought to be. One would expect that a Church founded by your Savior and mine would grow and prosper over time. Yet His Father gave us free will and allowed human beings to choose sin without divine intervention to override our free will.

The relationship between your reference to the size of the Roman Catholic Church and your unsupported editorial that "it is not the Body of Christ" is not at all obvious. Is this expression of your imagination based upon your own personal interpretation of Scripture (abbreviated here by many of us as YOPIOS) or is it supported merely by the traditions of (non-Catholic) folks?

You and I are siblings in Christ and, in traditional terms, we Catholics regard you as being among our "separated brethren." You are trying somehow to persuade us to YOPIOS. Well-catechized Catholics are quite resistant (and quite understandably so) to the attempts of those who do not share the fullness of our Faith to get us to trade-in the Mass, the sacraments and the teaching Magisterium, inter alia, for the "Scriptural" fad of the week.

I am posting as I am because you have been unusually persistent in your criticism of the Church to which I belong. None of this is personal but none is to invite you to offer your opinions as to the imagined shortcomings of my Church either.

When we squabble here over the differences which separate us as to doctrine and dogma, we do so for the entertainment of our enemies who are our Savior's enemies as well. In the world in which we live, we have not earned the right to so squabble in the public square. Let us vanquish our mutual enemies and those of our God. The and only then ought we to take our discussions to the public square for the entertainment of the heathens.

41 posted on 05/06/2009 10:54:01 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Wheelbarrow & turnip.


42 posted on 05/06/2009 10:54:35 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; B-Chan; Dr. Sivana; ninenot; ArrogantBustard; Petronski; annalex
Of course, that's where you and Jesus Christ disagree.

Also, excommunication from the Roman Catholic Church is a bit less of a drama than you and other non-Catholics suspect. It has long been the case that "Catholics" such as Sebelius and Christopher Dodd and Ted Kennedy and John Kerry and Rosa DeLauro and Patty Murray and Nancy Pelosi and so very many more in our public life have incurred automatic excommunication (latae sententiae under Canon Law). It is not necessary to do a formal auto da fe (however colorful and just and exemplary) nor to do a public ritual of bell, book and candle.

Before you are tempted to say that Canon Law is a tradition of men and not Scriptural, check Matthew 16: 13 et seq. and particularly verses 18 and 19 as to Petrine power and authority. Pope Benedict XV issued a codification of Canon Law during the World War I period and the current codification was issued by Pope John Paul II in the 1980s.

The Roman Catholic Church in our time comprises about 20% of living persons. To the best of our knowledge, each and every one is a sinner. It is a gigantic organization but regrettably not as gigantic as it ought to be. One would expect that a Church founded by your Savior and mine would grow and prosper over time. Yet His Father gave us free will and allowed human beings to choose sin without divine intervention to override our free will.

The relationship between your reference to the size of the Roman Catholic Church and your unsupported editorial that "it is not the Body of Christ" is not at all obvious. Is this expression of your imagination based upon your own personal interpretation of Scripture (abbreviated here by many of us as YOPIOS) or is it supported merely by the traditions of (non-Catholic) folks?

You and I are siblings in Christ and, in traditional terms, we Catholics regard you as being among our "separated brethren." You are trying somehow to persuade us to YOPIOS. Well-catechized Catholics are quite resistant (and quite understandably so) to the attempts of those who do not share the fullness of our Faith to get us to trade-in the Mass, the sacraments and the teaching Magisterium, inter alia, for the "Scriptural" fad of the week.

I am posting as I am because you have been unusually persistent in your criticism of the Church to which I belong. None of this is personal but none is to invite you to offer your opinions as to the imagined shortcomings of my Church either.

When we squabble here over the differences which separate us as to doctrine and dogma, we do so for the entertainment of our enemies who are our Savior's enemies as well. In the world in which we live, we have not earned the right to so squabble in the public square. Let us vanquish our mutual enemies and those of our God. The and only then ought we to take our discussions to the public square for the entertainment of the heathens.

43 posted on 05/06/2009 10:55:02 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: ArrogantBustard

HMMMMM!!!!


44 posted on 05/06/2009 10:57:44 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Dutchboy88

#43 was written to you and I pinged the rest because they may be interested.


45 posted on 05/06/2009 10:59:22 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Dutchboy88
That the Roman Catholic Church has morphed into a gigantic organization; it is not the Body of Christ.

Hey super! Glad you have the right to think that way. A billion of us disagree with you, but when it comes to all things spiritual, we promise to go right on not telling you what to do. And we promise to do our best to ignore people like you when you tell us that your own faith is the only what that got it right. Its been working just fine for us for 2000 years now, and (for all its flaws) the Catholic Church continues to be the primary force of God on this planet. No matter how much that bothers you. Please go on practicing Christianity however you define it, and you have my word that no real Catholics will be coming along to tell you how you got it wrong. Don't worry: We accept that its too much to ask for people like you to return the favor.

46 posted on 05/06/2009 11:07:57 AM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
My dear ArrogantB - I hope I didn't offend you!

In the News/Activism forum, on a thread titled Nineteen Catholic Senators Voted To Confirm Pro-Abortion HHS Nominee Sebelius , I thought I was enlisting support of Catholics to do the following:

1. CALL the Senate Catholics and let them know what they think of voting to confirm a pro-abortion nominee to HHS.
AND

2. I urged them to CALL their priest to provide some accountability (read:"discipline") against these pro-choice Catholic Senators. (see Mt 18:15ff)

Is there a problem with that?

BTW - there are apparently 26 Senators who identify themselves with the Roman Catholic Church. (source)

.

You might want to take a look at this: "An estimated 54% of Catholics voted for Barack Obama, despite the strong stand of over 50 heads of dioceses against candidates who support abortion. How did Obama successfully win the majority of the Catholic vote?" (source)

Which brings me back again to one of my original points, doesn't it?: This "says something about Catholics."

.

Get angry with me if you want. Fine. I have received 4/7 of the Catholic sacraments:
o Anointing of the Sick
o Reconciliation (confession)
o Confirmation Eucharist
o Baptism

No big deal. But I'm entitled to my opinion of the Catholic Church.

47 posted on 05/06/2009 11:48:36 AM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
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To: presidio9
Senator Brownback announced his support early on which was a surprise and a major disappointment to many in the pro-life movement.

Why would that be a surprise when Brownback was caught red-handed working with her and Howard Dean to blame Bush for the "lack of federal response, or Katrina II" to the tornado that wiped out Greensburg?

48 posted on 05/06/2009 11:49:31 AM PDT by penowa
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To: kinsman redeemer
I asked a simple question.

It seems to have upset you, somehow ...

I merely urged folks who subscribe to various protestant ecclesial communities to examine the voting habits of their congresscritters (who greatly outnumber the Catholic congressthings) and ask their pastors to rebuke the pro-death senators in their communities.

It's not too much trouble for protestant pastors and protestants in general to rebuke pro-death protestants-in-name-only, now is it?

Get angry with me if it makes you feel better. Maybe it will spur you to action within your own community. In any case, I'm entitled to my opinion of protestantism.

49 posted on 05/06/2009 12:02:53 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: BlackElk

Well said. I am Catholic, but I have spent a lot of time professionally working with Evangelicals. We agree to disagree on some issues, but we can work together on issues of importance to all of us, such as marriage, family, and the dignity of life.

So why fight and quarrel when we can work together on many important things without compromising our faith?

As for the gigantic Catholic Church not being the body of Christ, that really is pretty inane. Size alone is not an infallible indicator. But Cardinal Newman converted, in part, after it became evident to him that the Church of England could not be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, because it was too short-lived and too provincial.

I left the Episcopal Church for the Catholic Church in part for the same reasons. It just doesn’t make sense that this could be the one, true, universal Church. Of course there were other reasons as well, especially what appeared to me to be the grace of God and the Holy Spirit directing me ahnd calling me into the Catholic Church over the course of many years. But from a purely logical point of view, is the One, True Church of Jesus Christ likely to be limited to a single congregation, or to a limited coalition of congregations, in just one part of the world? And why do these purely Bible-based churches keep shifting and splitting and re-aligning all the time? There is much good in any sincere, Bible-based Christian church, but as you say, these are our separated brethren, who will be saved if they sincerely follow their lights but who certainly do not represent the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of the early creeds, or the Bride of Christ as described in the Bible.


50 posted on 05/06/2009 12:22:42 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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