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6 Factors in the Decline of the Roman Empire (and perhaps America)
Osnome | 6-25-09 | Osnome

Posted on 06/25/2009 11:16:21 PM PDT by Osnome

Six Most Important Factors that destroyed Roman Civilization:

1)Overtaxation

2)Opression of the Provences by the Central Government

3)Government topheavy with bureaucracy

4)Military power overextended across the world(their world at the time)

5)The Populace diverted by degenerate mass entertainment

6) The Borders poorly defended against increasing foreign migration(in their case, Barbarians)


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: godsgravesglyphs; history; misspellingtoblame; ohthehugevanity; romanempire; rommanempire; society; vanity
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1 posted on 06/25/2009 11:16:21 PM PDT by Osnome
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To: Osnome

People don’t even know the meaning of liberty anymore it is so confused with entertainment and debauchery. We watch the thieves in proud plain sight and we do nothing to stop them as they rape and beat lady liberty into submission we do nothing when we should have their heads.


2 posted on 06/25/2009 11:26:50 PM PDT by Maelstorm (Sarah Palin 2012 (Who else in the GOP is man enough?))
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To: Maelstorm

That’s a great statement, worthy of engraving somewhere.


3 posted on 06/25/2009 11:30:48 PM PDT by tired1 (When the Devil eats you there's only one way out.)
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To: Osnome

You are absolutely right on all those factors leading to the collapse of the Roman Empire. I read once that the taxes were so high, that many of the Roman citizens welcomed the barbarian invaders as a relief from high taxation.

It seems that we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of history.


4 posted on 06/25/2009 11:30:49 PM PDT by Nosterrex
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To: Maelstorm
The popular culture is debauchery!
Hollywood and the New York Media are run by the same animals.

A problem is that we who are not debauched have often voted for those politicians who have fraternized or would like to do so with the Hollywood Crowd.

We should not seek to be with them(or co-opt them), we should eradicate them!
There are no Conservatives worthy of the name in Hollywood(or the rest of the Popular Media).
None of them can be trusted.

5 posted on 06/25/2009 11:40:00 PM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Nosterrex

The Barbarians are already in the White House.

They are not Americans, they were not raised in America, they owe no allegiance to America. We could only be destroyed from within, and that is what is happening.

Unilateral disarmament, runaway spending leading to hyperinflation... what more could a Jihadist against America wish for?

The cancer in D.C. must be excised.


6 posted on 06/25/2009 11:43:58 PM PDT by ConservativeOptimist ( Jihad from the oval office.... Or how do you spell "Manchurian Candidate"?)
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To: Nosterrex

>>You are absolutely right on all those factors leading to the collapse of the Roman Empire. I read once that the taxes were so high, that many of the Roman citizens welcomed the barbarian invaders as a relief from high taxation.<<

Yeah, I think I saw that too, on some show on The History Channel.

There are other factors, I leave it to posters to add their own considerations.

P.S. I sometimes consider the Canadians to be a reincarnation of the Parthians.


7 posted on 06/25/2009 11:44:18 PM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Osnome

I do not trust any of them. When they are with us it is fine. We see how well supporting Arnold benefited us in CA?


8 posted on 06/25/2009 11:44:59 PM PDT by Maelstorm (Sarah Palin 2012 (Who else in the GOP is man enough?))
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To: Maelstorm
>>I do not trust any of them. When they are with us it is fine. We see how well supporting Arnold benefited us in CA?<<
That is the point, none of them can be trusted.
They were never truly with us, even if they were in the beginning, they get corrupted by Hollywood and co-opted by the Liberal Establishment.
9 posted on 06/25/2009 11:51:44 PM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Osnome

A self-ping for a morning comment. I think your list is a good one. I’d add a couple - first, the shift in political emphasis, military resources, and especially revenues toward Constantinople after the split of the Empire, and second, as Gibbon proposed, the dramatic shift in talent from the secular government to the building of the Church. It’s a little difficult to understand just how radical a shift it was until you consider that Christianity had, in the same period, run like wildfire through the Goths, and that the very men taking over the Western Empire in 476 AD were Arian Christians. The notion of a barbarian taking over the monarchy was tempered by the realization that the barbarian was a Christian, not to mention the leader of an army that was as close to Roman as anything in the field at the time. The Emperor was, by then, in Ravenna anyway, not Rome. It may not have been as jarring a change as it might appear to us at this historical distance. IMHO, of course.


10 posted on 06/25/2009 11:55:03 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Osnome

Of course, there have been some historiographical developments since Gibbon’s day. One thing he failed to consider was the agriculutural revolution that happened in the East, which lead to an explosion in wealth and population in the barbarian East, which could perhaps be likened to the economic rise of China....


11 posted on 06/25/2009 11:55:07 PM PDT by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: Osnome

Also, most of what you have just mentioned is more indicative of the collapse of the Republic, following which there was another 500 years of Empire, much of which was even more successful than the the Republican period.
America has yet to reach it’s ‘Principate’ phase if we’re making the analogy with Rome here. So is Obama a Marius, brothers Gracchi or a Julius Caesar, or maybe a combination?


12 posted on 06/26/2009 12:00:13 AM PDT by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: Osnome

Oh, and I almost forgot - I’m going to bed, really, and won’t comment until the morning - yeah, right - the fact that the Vandals had swept through Spain and captured North Africa, which was the principal granary of Rome, really put an end to the whole thing. Until Belisarius came back through (from Constantinople) half a century later Rome only ate by permission of the barbarians. The Ostrogoths from the north and the Vandals in the south - that was pretty much all she wrote.


13 posted on 06/26/2009 12:02:18 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Billthedrill
Very good point.

The truth is, the Roman Empire did not fall in a day in 476 A.D., it withered away until nothing was left but a shriveled denuded trunk of its’ former self.
Then the Goths took over, then the Byzantines sought to recapture the Italian peninsula in the 6th century.
The Goth & Byzantine wars devastated Italy.
That was the onset of the Dark Ages.

14 posted on 06/26/2009 12:02:57 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Billthedrill

The truth is, the Roman Empire did not fall in a day in 476 A.D., it withered away until nothing was left but a shriveled denuded trunk of its’ former self.
Then the Goths took over, then the Byzantines sought to recapture the Italian peninsula in the 6th century.
The Goth & Byzantine wars devastated Italy.
That was the onset of the Dark Ages.

Good night!


15 posted on 06/26/2009 12:05:13 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Califreak

Bookmark for later


16 posted on 06/26/2009 12:10:44 AM PDT by Califreak (Dissident under duress)
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

>>Also, most of what you have just mentioned is more indicative of the collapse of the Republic, following which there was another 500 years of Empire, much of which was even more successful than the the Republican period.
America has yet to reach it’s ‘Principate’ phase if we’re making the analogy with Rome here. So is Obama a Marius, brothers Gracchi or a Julius Caesar, or maybe a combination?<<

Well ofcourse the U.S.A. is not a verbatim remake of the Roman Empire.(antiAmerican Cynics from Europe to Canada will call us that)
We are a democracy of which Rome never truly was.
We don’t rely on slaves for cheap labour(once again Libs and Lefties will compare that to immigrant labour).

I think Obama is our Septimus Serverus, an interloper~


17 posted on 06/26/2009 12:11:05 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

He maybe our Septimus Serverus, an interloper from Africa


18 posted on 06/26/2009 12:12:45 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Osnome

We are not an empire ruled by an emperor. Such a comparison was more apt for the British. We are a republic. As such, comparisons to the Roman Republic are more apt. Why did the Roman Republic fall?


19 posted on 06/26/2009 12:14:55 AM PDT by Judges Gone Wild (Who is this uncircumcised, to oppose the armies of The Living God?)
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To: All

Good night all :-)


20 posted on 06/26/2009 12:15:26 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Osnome
Your assessment is right on. But what can be done about it?

We let government schools teach our children and they are infected with poison, and we continuously reelect the same politicians. We see it coming and all we want is bread and circuses. I see no way to get these people out of our institutions.

You can either head for the hills and live off the land, or prepare for and engage in revolution; and without effective organization a revolution will be short lived.

I don't know what to do except teach my children well, defend my beliefs, and vote my conscience.

It seems as though all great nations end this way. How does one stop it?

21 posted on 06/26/2009 1:24:49 AM PDT by Daniel II
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To: Daniel II
>> We let government schools teach our children and they are infected with poison, and we continuously reelect the same politicians. We see it coming and all we want is bread and circuses. I see no way to get these people out of our institutions. You can either head for the hills and live off the land, or prepare for and engage in revolution; and without effective organization a revolution will be short lived. I don't know what to do except teach my children well, defend my beliefs, and vote my conscience. It seems as though all great nations end this way. How does one stop it? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Perhaps like Turkey became a better stronger nation after the fall of the Ottomans.

By shedding off the dead weight- by giving up the imperial possessions(and the cost of the garrisons that went with them).
That is what Japan was forced to do after WW2 and consequently became one of the 20th century's greatest economic powers within less than two generations. Does this apply to America, I would say not now it doesn't. But then again what do we shed? Our NATO presence in Europe(plus our garrison in Korea and other countries). Pat Buchanan advocates such!

22 posted on 06/26/2009 2:03:06 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Osnome

“There are other factors, I leave it to posters to add their own considerations.”

Here’s one, that applies today also. The central Roman gov’t became too dependent on their colonies for production of materials and supplies. They farmed out their needs or imported from their colonies the material products they wanted, and thus no longer had a manufacturing base of their own, making them vulnerable economically. Just like we have done in the U.S., by losing our manufacturing base and having to import so much from the likes of China and others.


23 posted on 06/26/2009 2:04:10 AM PDT by flaglady47 (Obama, a Fascist more than a Socialist, although he's both.)
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To: flaglady47

>>Just like we have done in the U.S., by losing our manufacturing base and having to import so much from the likes of China and others.<<

And from Malaysia, Korea, Mexico, and those damned Canadians


24 posted on 06/26/2009 2:09:49 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: flaglady47

Good post


25 posted on 06/26/2009 2:13:47 AM PDT by chasio649
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To: Daniel II
It seems as though all great nations end this way. How does one stop it?

Perhaps we should become "the barbarians."

26 posted on 06/26/2009 2:14:03 AM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: Grizzled Bear

Arrrgh! Or a pirate!

I’m a pirate! Blather, blather!


27 posted on 06/26/2009 2:19:16 AM PDT by Daniel II
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To: Osnome

“And from Malaysia, Korea, Mexico, and those damned Canadians”

You obviously missed the point I was making.


28 posted on 06/26/2009 2:26:22 AM PDT by flaglady47 (Obama, a Fascist more than a Socialist, although he's both.)
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To: Judges Gone Wild

Corruption did the roman republic in - as well as near constant warfare. It was just a matter of time before a general decided to bring matters under control.


29 posted on 06/26/2009 2:36:03 AM PDT by rudman
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To: Judges Gone Wild; flaglady47; Daniel II; sinsofsolarempirefan

>>We are not an empire ruled by an emperor. Such a comparison was more apt for the British. We are a republic. As such, comparisons to the Roman Republic are more apt. Why did the Roman Republic fall?<<

I am not making a verbatim parallel of America to Rome.
I am making a loose analogy based on similar trends that I have discerned

To entertain your line of thinking, why did their Republic Fall~ many reasons; greed, softness, and addiction to luxury(this includes an addiction to using slaves), the loss of the sense of Public Duty, the increasing ambitions of many Generals/Politicians.
But in the end the form of government that suited a city state could not govern and maintain a multinational empire.

It was inevitable that the Romans gravitated to authoritarian and increasingly despotic government.

That is the Fall of the Roman Republic.

With us it is the rapid growth of Big Government and dependence on Federal support.
We have been evolving into a Washingtonian Empire for the past 90 odd years.

Fall of a Great Republic, Democracy, Empire never happen in a day and are a combination of causes both external and primarily internal.


30 posted on 06/26/2009 2:36:58 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Osnome
Gravitating from a republic to empire is likely a natural progression. When one thinks about it, the Roman empire was a totalitarian regime akin to fascism, which, I believe, is where we are heading.

When a government has so many tentacles spread out over the world, it is only natural for it to try to protect its interests.

I'm not saying Obama is our Julius Caesar, but he may wind up being our first emperor - without clothes.

31 posted on 06/26/2009 2:45:28 AM PDT by Daniel II
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To: Daniel II

I disagree very much.

The Roman Empire was not totalitarian, not until the rule of Diocletian.

And the symbol of the Roman Republic was the Fasces.
The Roman Republic was very authoritarian to begin with- very similar to SPARTA.


32 posted on 06/26/2009 2:50:12 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: flaglady47

>>“And from Malaysia, Korea, Mexico, and those damned Canadians”

You obviously missed the point I was making.
<<

Oh, I thought you were talking about the willful loss of America’s manufacturing base to other countries.
The Romans did not create their own industries but relied on their colonies and conquered provinces(to be sure there were some exceptions to that pattern)to provide good and services(slaves).

I was also being a little whimsical :-)


33 posted on 06/26/2009 2:51:47 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Osnome
And I might add, that Islam may be wholly put down because they have the oil we need.

No blood for oil? Yeah, right.

34 posted on 06/26/2009 2:52:43 AM PDT by Daniel II
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To: Daniel II

A major factorial difference between the Republic of Rome and the Empire is that while not really a democrcy per se, the Citizens, The Public Sector(Plebians) did have a voice in government matters— thru the Tribunes.

With the Empire established, the Citizens where content to have grand scale matters decided for them, they were guaranteed their leisures and wealth.

Maybe that is the way we’re going now~?


35 posted on 06/26/2009 3:00:47 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Osnome

What part? The Imperial cult started with Julius. And the Senate was castrated by the time of Caligula.

I agree that they were authoritarian from the git go, but they (Rome) ruled with an iron fist from the time of Augustus.


36 posted on 06/26/2009 3:01:14 AM PDT by Daniel II
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To: Osnome

Ah, good point. Although, I’m not sure at what point they (the Plebians) lost their voice.


37 posted on 06/26/2009 3:03:07 AM PDT by Daniel II
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To: Daniel II

>>And I might add, that Islam may be wholly put down because they have the oil we need.
No blood for oil? Yeah, right.

<<
Yes that dependence on a foreign controlled resource is a weakness to our Democracy.

No, there has been no blood for oil.
At least not in this invasion of Iraq- - everybody thought that Saddam Hussein was hiding dangerous weapons.
As for profit, we would all be better economically if we had not invaded that nasty third-world country at all.

If supply of oil was thee consideration, we would not have invaded Iraq at all for Hussien was perfectly willing to sell his oil to anyone who would buy.

Fuel prices would be lower today if we had never invaded.


38 posted on 06/26/2009 3:08:33 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Osnome

7)Dark ages followed.


39 posted on 06/26/2009 3:09:51 AM PDT by Vaduz
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To: rudman

—as well as constant warfare—..etc..
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Especially when the citizenry decides it is ‘below them’ to represent the pols in the warfare end of it...you end up with mercenaries, who, when the thrill of the outside fight is over, turn on the hand that feeds them and takes it for themselves...that is when the ‘lazy, pampered citizens’ are overrun, unable to stop it as the powers that be have either disarmed them or made ‘them’ apathetic to self preservation, through welfare, government schools, FREE THIS, FREE THAT etc


40 posted on 06/26/2009 3:10:37 AM PDT by xrmusn ("IF OB IS THE ANSWER, I BEG TO KNOW THE QUESTION")
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To: Daniel II
>>What part? The Imperial cult started with Julius. And the Senate was castrated by the time of Caligula.

I agree that they were authoritarian from the git go, but they (Rome) ruled with an iron fist from the time of Augustus.
<<

Yes and no, again.
The Senate held some real power all the way until the rule of Aurelian The Reformer in the 3rd century(and we need not digress why he did so).
Then Diocletian dissolved the Senate permanently.

41 posted on 06/26/2009 3:18:10 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Osnome

Not just to our democracy, but China and everyone else that relies on it.

While we invaded Iraq over WMD and we liberated their people, the flow of oil is of great consequence. It is fungible, but a steady supply is still required.

Yes, we didn’t invade for their oil, but we will forever remain in the middle east because of it.


42 posted on 06/26/2009 3:21:09 AM PDT by Daniel II
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To: Daniel II
>>Ah, good point. Although, I’m not sure at what point they (the Plebeians) lost their voice.<<

The power of their Tribunes like the power of the Senate became gradually(for the most part) whittled down to nothing more than a ceremonial role.

All important decisions were made from the Imperial Office downward.

The last vestiges of self government were only at the local level.

43 posted on 06/26/2009 3:24:25 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Daniel II

>>the flow of oil is of great consequence. It is fungible, but a steady supply is still required.

Yes, we didn’t invade for their oil, but we will forever remain in the middle east because of it.
<<

Very well


44 posted on 06/26/2009 3:26:25 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Vaduz
>>7)Dark ages followed.<<

There is one theory that the ‘Dark Ages’ were precipitated by some global natural catastrophe in 536 A.D. which darkened the skies of Europe literally and brought about many plights.

This is alluded to in the Legends of King Arthur with the fall of Camelot and stories of famine in the land.

But this becomes a digression.

45 posted on 06/26/2009 3:35:26 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Osnome

The Senate held power at the whims of the emperor. While it wasn’t dissolved until Diocletian, it was held at bay by any given emperor.

Aurelian was the last to let the Senate have any kind of voice at all, although how much can be debated. Most emperors ignored them except on trivial matters - usually internal affairs.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

But, your overall view is clear. Our country may well dissolve into dictatorial rule. It may only survive by plundering the resources of others. I don’t think we are going anywhere, but the game has changed.


46 posted on 06/26/2009 3:45:07 AM PDT by Daniel II
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To: Daniel II
>>Aurelian was the last to let the Senate have any kind of voice at all, although how much can be debated. Most emperors ignored them except on trivial matters - usually internal affairs.

Correct me if I’m wrong.
<<

Hah hah hah hah!

Would you believe that he may have dissolved away the Senate because they submitted to the petition of a women's protest(the first organized female protest in history).
The emperor had banned importing silks from the east.
He thought the empire could not afford such a trivial flimsy luxury.
The women of Rome could not stand to do without their silks.

47 posted on 06/26/2009 3:55:50 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Osnome

LOL! Okay. You seem to have the better memory. Even after reading Edward Gibbon’s “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire,” and Philip Schaff’s multi-volumed “History of the Church” ... I’m now running back to brush up on my history.

Run Away! Run Away!


48 posted on 06/26/2009 4:02:04 AM PDT by Daniel II
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

>>Of course, there have been some historiographical developments since Gibbon’s day. One thing he failed to consider was the agriculutural revolution that happened in the East, which lead to an explosion in wealth and population in the barbarian East, which could perhaps be likened to the economic rise of China....<<

Maybe.

The Huns were from the East and were certinaly not dependent nor involved in agriculture(farmimg).
They were barbarian raiders and expert horsemen.

The Chinese are not barbarian invaders, but I get the last point and would say at this time it is a bit of a stretch.


49 posted on 06/26/2009 4:05:00 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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To: Daniel II

Run away and good night - - again:-)


50 posted on 06/26/2009 4:07:14 AM PDT by Osnome (Moderation in all things)
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