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Demjanjuk trial opens in Germany
Jerusalem Post ^ | 11/30/2009 | Unattributed

Posted on 11/30/2009 10:05:19 AM PST by mojito

A German court put John Demjanjuk on trial Monday to face charges of being an accessory to the murder of 27,900 Jews at a Nazi death camp, and his lawyer immediately accused the court of bias.

The 89-year-old retired Ohio autoworker arrived at the opening of the trial in a wheelchair to face the final chapter of some 30 years of efforts to prosecute him, wearing a navy baseball cap and covered in a light blue blanket.

After the first 90-minute session, Demjanjuk was returned to the courtroom lying flat on his back on a gurney, covered in blankets.

Doctors who had examined Demjanjuk before the second session began said he had complained of serious pain and was given a shot. They ordered the session be cut short, and it wrapped up 30 minutes later.

Demjanjuk's attorney had opened the proceedings by filing a motion against the court's judge and prosecutors, accusing them of treating the Ukrainian-born Demjanjuk harsher than Germans who ran the Nazi's Sobidor death camp in occupied Poland.

Lawyer Ulrich Busch charged that the case should never have been brought to trial. He cited cases in which Germans assigned to Sobibor - where prosecutors allege Demjanjuk served as a guard - were acquitted.

"How can you say that those who gave the orders were innocent ... and the one who received the orders is guilty?" Busch told the court. "There is a moral and legal double standard being applied today."

Demjanjuk was deported in May from the United States to Germany, and has been in custody since then. He could face up to 15 years in prison if convicted.

(Excerpt) Read more at jpost.com ...


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: demjanjuk; nazi; nazism; sorbidor; ss; wwii
I'm not sure that there is really much evidence against Mr. Demjanjuk. And as a POW, there are extenuating circumstances. I believe Nazi murderers should pay for their crimes. But I'm not at all certain that Mr. Demjanjuk should be counted among them.
1 posted on 11/30/2009 10:05:21 AM PST by mojito
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To: mojito

This is a show trial pure and simple. The Germans want to prove to the world that non-Germans participated in the Holocaust which is why they want to make an example out of John Demjanjuk. Never mind the fact that Demjanjuk was already tried in Israel and served time in prison and later released because it was proved that he was not Ivan the Terrible. War crimes trials were originally intended to try the major leaders and policy makers of beligerent countries violating international law like what happened at Nuremberg. They were not intended to go after low level camp guards who were conscripted into the German ranks like John Demjanjuk. It is highly unlikely that there are any major Nazi war criminals alive today—all of which makes Demjanjuk a convenient scapegoat for this outrageous show trial..


2 posted on 11/30/2009 10:14:13 AM PST by Welcome2thejungle
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To: mojito
I'm not sure that there is really much evidence against Mr. Demjanjuk.

Finally we shall see the evidence they have.

3 posted on 11/30/2009 10:15:30 AM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: mojito

Israel first convicted him, then overturned the conviction when “evidence emerged” that he might not have been the guard in question. Later an immigration judge , obviously
‘hot on the case that would not die” cobbled together some more “evidence’ sufficient enough to call for a new trial, and that’s where it is now.


4 posted on 11/30/2009 10:16:51 AM PST by supremedoctrine (Talent hits a target no one else can hit. Genius hits a target no one else can see----Schopenhauer)
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To: Welcome2thejungle
Never mind the fact that Demjanjuk was already tried in Israel and served time in prison and later released because it was proved that he was not Ivan the Terrible.

That's good advice, since he is not now facing charges of being Ivan the Terrible.

5 posted on 11/30/2009 10:17:14 AM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: mojito

“See, not just us Germans were the bad guys.”


6 posted on 11/30/2009 10:17:18 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: mojito

perhaps someone can explain what
jurisdiction the court has?

(the supposed crimes were not committed
in Germany)


7 posted on 11/30/2009 10:28:34 AM PST by element92
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To: Petronski

Whatever else John Demjanjuk may or not be, it is absurd to suggest he is a major war criminal.

I, too, will be interested to see if there is any new evidence. I doubt there are any eyewitnesses alive today who claim they saw him kill anyone.

At worst he was a low level camp guard forcibly concripted into German ranks. The Germans should put themselves on trial. Demjanjuk lived in a country which was first brutalized by the Soviets (they slaughtered 8 million Ukrainians in the 1930s just before the German invasion) then brutalized by the Germans. Demjanjuk was nothing more than a small cog in a big machine. He was not even an officer but the way he is being constantly treated and put on trial you’d think he was another Eichmann, Kaltenbrunner, Hoess, or Heydrich.


8 posted on 11/30/2009 10:29:46 AM PST by Welcome2thejungle
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To: Welcome2thejungle
...it is absurd to suggest he is a major war criminal.

I've seen no such suggestions.

9 posted on 11/30/2009 10:34:00 AM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Petronski

At age 89 this man is already very close to his Final Judgement. Why do the Germans feel such a compelling need to put him on trial again? Don’t you think within the borders of their own country they could round up hundreds of aging prison camp guards and SS members and Waffen SS troops to put on trial? Since when is simply being a member of a certain organization automatically make you guilty of war crimes?


10 posted on 11/30/2009 10:55:06 AM PST by Welcome2thejungle
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To: Welcome2thejungle
Why do the Germans feel such a compelling need to put him on trial again?

Ask them.

Don’t you think within the borders of their own country they could round up hundreds of aging prison camp guards and SS members and Waffen SS troops to put on trial?

If you have any information that could help authorities, I suggest you contact the FBI and/or the German or Israeli embassies.

Since when is simply being a member of a certain organization automatically make you guilty of war crimes?

I don't see the relevance of the question.

11 posted on 11/30/2009 11:00:10 AM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Petronski

Well I happen to see relevance to ALL of these questions. Obviously I am not an attorney but I do have common sense. This is clearly a case of selective vengeance. Many collaborators in WWII were never punished including Francois Mitterrand who went on to become the president of France, fashion designer Coco Chanel who slept with Nazi officers, and Kurt Waldheim who became head of the UN. It seems to me that enough history has passed to allow Demjanjuk to live out his remaing few years left without all of this sanctimonous posturing coming from the Germans of all people. It is my understanding that there are no surviving witnesses who can postively identify Demjanjuk. Now how would like being put on trial twice without any witnesses and being tried twice and often with flimsy evidence manufactured by Communist regimes? This whole thing is completely outrageous and defies common sense. In war lots of terrible things and the instigators ought to be brought to justice and held accountable for their crimes. Demjanjuk was forcibly conscripted into the Red Army then into the German army. He has had is day in court served his time prison. He should be left alone now. Our government has no real interest in deporting people who came into this country under false pretenses. Look at all of the millions of illegal aliens who live here. Germany has no real interest in prosecuting aging camp guards, if they did they would be rounding up and arresting a lot of people in their own country. Logic and reason tell me the Germans simply want to make an example out of Demjanjuk and prove to the world that non-Germans also participated in the Holocaust even if they were conscripted into the German ranks. So Demjanjuk will be convicted merely for being a camp a guard and with no valid eyewitness accounts of war crimes. What a complete and total farce.


12 posted on 11/30/2009 11:20:05 AM PST by Welcome2thejungle
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To: Welcome2thejungle
How very emotional...
13 posted on 11/30/2009 11:24:49 AM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Petronski

No it’s the freaking truth! Demjanjuk is being singled out for special justice and vengeance. Any reasonable person can clearly see a railroad.


14 posted on 11/30/2009 11:34:19 AM PST by Welcome2thejungle
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To: Petronski

Just curious, are you campaigning for former gulag guards to be tried, also? Or is your long-distance lust for vengance confined to 89-yr old Ukranian conscripts?


15 posted on 11/30/2009 11:36:18 AM PST by ozzymandus
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To: ozzymandus
Just curious, are you campaigning for former gulag guards to be tried, also?

If you have any information about former GULAG guards, I suggest you contact the FBI.

Or is your long-distance lust for vengance confined to 89-yr old Ukranian conscripts?

I have no lust for vengeance, if that's what you mean.

16 posted on 11/30/2009 11:39:54 AM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Welcome2thejungle
No it’s the freaking truth!

I have to admit I didn't read the whole thing. I have no use for hysterical word-salad (the very same reason I don't read Maureen Dowd).

17 posted on 11/30/2009 11:41:12 AM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Petronski

You’re pretty snotty for somebody who thinks “The World At War” is the be-all and end-all of WW2 history. Maybe you should read a book or two, or at least watch another TV show before you make a bigger fool of yourself.


18 posted on 11/30/2009 11:48:49 AM PST by ozzymandus
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To: Petronski

You know as well as I do that everything I wrote is truthful. You know that Demjanjuk was already tried in Israel, had his conviction overturned and then released. You know that Israel never would have released him if they thought he was a ruthless war criminal. You know that none of the camp survivors could positively identify him. You know that he will be found guilty by association which is unfair because he was forcibly conscripted into the German forces. So what more is there to prove in this trial? You can stop patronizing me because you know everything I say is the truth. If someone is gulity of a war crime simply by being a member of the SS, I’m sure there are plenty of old men and veterans the Germans could round inside their own country.


19 posted on 11/30/2009 11:50:03 AM PST by Welcome2thejungle
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To: Welcome2thejungle
You know as well as I do that everything I wrote is truthful.

Lay off the mind-reading. You're not any good at it.

You know that Demjanjuk was already tried in Israel, had his conviction overturned and then released.

Different charges.

You know that...

Try to calm down. Breathe.

20 posted on 11/30/2009 11:52:04 AM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: ozzymandus
You’re pretty snotty for somebody who thinks “The World At War” is the be-all and end-all of WW2 history.

You're a lousy mind-reader too (or is it just a lousy reader?).

Maybe you should read a book or two, or at least watch another TV show before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

Aw. I have a stalker. That's cute.

21 posted on 11/30/2009 11:53:38 AM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Petronski

I am quite calm. But I think this whole trial is grossly unfair and incredibly outrageous. I know we are rapidly moving towards a socialist regime here at home and there is nothing the BHO regime would like more than to silence or marginalize Fox News and conservative talk radio, but we still do have freedom of speech here. I think Demjanjuk is being treated unfairly here and I have every right to speak out about it.


22 posted on 11/30/2009 11:58:31 AM PST by Welcome2thejungle
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To: Petronski

You’re an uninformed mental midget who thinks he’s smart. That’s a good description of a liberal. Keep checking for typos and making snotty remarks. That’s as good as you’ll ever get, you pretentious little loser.


23 posted on 11/30/2009 11:58:44 AM PST by ozzymandus
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To: ozzymandus
You’re an uninformed mental midget who thinks he’s smart...That’s as good as you’ll ever get, you pretentious little loser.

Is this load of content-free personal attack supposed to get me to jump into your sewer with you?

24 posted on 11/30/2009 12:00:17 PM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Welcome2thejungle

Actually, the Allies declared the Waffen-SS a “criminal organization” after the war, and every SS man above the rank of captain was investigated. Since they’re all either dead, or have been tried and sentenced or acquitted, the Nazi-hunters have been reduced to prosecuting 89-yr old Ukrainians who have already been tried at least once.


25 posted on 11/30/2009 12:03:14 PM PST by ozzymandus
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To: ozzymandus
...89-yr old Ukrainians who have already been tried at least once.

On different charges, in a different jurisdiction.

26 posted on 11/30/2009 12:04:27 PM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Petronski

No, it’s to tell you the truth and to inform you that I want nothing to do with you, so don’t bother with any more of your snotty ignorance.


27 posted on 11/30/2009 12:05:46 PM PST by ozzymandus
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To: Petronski

Oh so they couldn’t convict him of being Ivan the Terrible, let’s get him because he served as a lowly camp guard after being forcibly conscripted by the Germans. And, yes Demjanjuk was way below the rank of being captain so by their own standards not even he could be convicted merely for being a low cog in that organization. Let’s just keep making up charges until we convict him of something.

My, I wish this passion for going after aging camp guards would extend to Red China and the former USSR who slaughtered millions more people than Hitler could even dream of.

I wish this passion for going after people who entered this country illegally or on false pretenses would extend to the millions of ilegal aliens who currently reside in this country. As a resident of L.A. I can tell you that the current crop of illegals are far more dangerous than the 89 year old Demjanjuk. Many join violent street gangs, kill people, sell drugs to kids, terrorize whole neighborhoods with their hideous graffiti and gangbanging. Yet where is the passion for going after these ruthless cutthroat gangsters?

I guess it was easier rounding up a retired 89 year old great grandfather for the feds. We don’t want to give them any real work to do.


28 posted on 11/30/2009 12:19:03 PM PST by Welcome2thejungle
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To: ozzymandus

Are you gonna bark all day little reservoir dog?


29 posted on 11/30/2009 12:25:46 PM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Welcome2thejungle
Let’s just keep making up charges until we convict him of something.

Speak for yourself.

30 posted on 11/30/2009 12:27:06 PM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Petronski

Well, that’s what this is all about isn’t it? Could not convict him of being Ivan the Terrible, so now they will convict him merely for being a camp guard. Get him for guilt by association. He has the tatoo. He must be a war criminal.

That’s what probably what will happen. They will convict him of some minor charges and give him a five year sentence—(which is tantamount to a life sentnce for 89 year old). Because he was conscripted by the Germans into their ranks and served time as a guard in a concentration camp he is guilty. The bar has been lowered.


31 posted on 11/30/2009 12:34:25 PM PST by Welcome2thejungle
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To: Welcome2thejungle
Could not convict him of being Ivan the Terrible, so now they will convict him merely for being a camp guard.

Different jurisdictions.

32 posted on 11/30/2009 12:36:29 PM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Petronski

Does it not seem plausible to you that the fix is already in? They are going to convict him as a camp guard, never mind that he was forcibly conscripted into the German ranks. We as Americans have always had the luxury of being protected by two great oceans. Europe, especially Eastern Europe has suffered horrendously under two equally repulsive ideologies during roughly the same period. During the 1930s, the Soviets brutally liquidated 8 million of Demjanjuk’s countrymen in the Ukraine just prior to the Nazi invasion of the USSR in June 1941. Is it any wonder that millions of the people of the USSR initially welcomed the German invaders as liberators? Of course in time the Nazi occupation proved to be as brutal as Soviet rule. But the choices were never easy. At first Demjanjuk was conscripted into the Red Army, then into the German army. But what choices were given to him? Join us or work to death in a forced labor factory? The Germans have a lot of nerve putting this man on trial. They were the ones who forced their will upon him. They have no right to try him. And reasonable and fair minded person could see this.


33 posted on 11/30/2009 12:52:19 PM PST by Welcome2thejungle
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To: Welcome2thejungle

You’re wasting your time arguing with this idiot. He’s seen “The World At War” and knows everything, and if you point out his ignorance, he’ll act tough and call you names, knowing he’s safe in his mommy’s basement.


34 posted on 11/30/2009 1:01:18 PM PST by ozzymandus
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To: Welcome2thejungle

And because he was already taken prisoner by the Nazis, that automatically gave him a death sentence should he ever had gotten back to the Soviet Union, because by Soviet law, any Red Army soldier who allowed themselves to be taken prisoner was a traitor, by definition.


35 posted on 11/30/2009 1:04:29 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

Of course, exactly. You get it. Many do not and are beyond reason.


36 posted on 11/30/2009 1:08:06 PM PST by Welcome2thejungle
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To: ozzymandus
...he’ll act tough and call you names, knowing he’s safe in his mommy’s basement.

How autobiographical...

37 posted on 11/30/2009 1:27:08 PM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Petronski

Have Mommy drive you to the library and ask the nice lady there where the WW2 books are. And don’t forget to take your ritalin. before you get on the short bus.


38 posted on 11/30/2009 8:56:25 PM PST by ozzymandus
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To: ozzymandus

I have my own library, thanks.


39 posted on 12/01/2009 7:43:11 AM PST by Petronski (Global warming is indeed man-made: it was created by man-made manipulation of the data.)
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To: Petronski

Youre not fooling anyone, Petrovski...


40 posted on 12/20/2009 4:23:02 PM PST by blackminorca
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To: mojito

Why didn’t Germany have the same gusto when it came to going after native German war criminals like Eichmann and Mengele?


41 posted on 12/20/2009 4:24:06 PM PST by dfwgator
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