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Jefferson vs Lincoln: America Must Choose
Tenth Amendment Center. ^ | 2010 | Josh Eboch

Posted on 03/10/2010 6:35:02 PM PST by Idabilly

Over the course of American history, there has been no greater conflict of visions than that between Thomas Jefferson’s voluntary republic, founded on the natural right of peaceful secession, and Abraham Lincoln’s permanent empire, founded on the violent denial of that same right.

That these two men somehow shared a common commitment to liberty is a lie so monstrous and so absurd that its pervasiveness in popular culture utterly defies logic.

After all, Jefferson stated unequivocally in the Declaration of Independence that, at any point, it may become necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them…

And, having done so, he said, it is the people’s right to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Contrast that clear articulation of natural law with Abraham Lincoln’s first inaugural address, where he flatly rejected the notion that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Instead, Lincoln claimed that, despite the clear wording of the Tenth Amendment, no State upon its own mere motion can lawfully get out of the Union; [and] resolves and ordinances [such as the Declaration of Independence] to that effect are legally void…

King George III agreed.

(Excerpt) Read more at southernheritage411.com ...


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: 10thamendment; abrahamlincoln; confederate; confedertae; donttreadonme; dunmoresproclamation; greatestpresident; history; jefferson; lincoln; naturallaw; nutjobsonfr; statesrights; thomasjefferson
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1 posted on 03/10/2010 6:35:03 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: Idabilly

I side with Jefferson.


2 posted on 03/10/2010 6:37:27 PM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (We bury Democrats face down so that when they scratch, they get closer to home.)
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To: Idabilly

I pick Jefferson .... Davis.


3 posted on 03/10/2010 6:39:06 PM PST by trek
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To: Idabilly

It’s been nearly 150 years. I think it’s time you got over it. History has given its verdict; Jefferson and Lincoln came out OK.


4 posted on 03/10/2010 6:39:18 PM PST by CalvaryJohn (What is keeping that damned asteroid?)
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To: Idabilly

I side with Lincoln, next to Washington the greatest president we’ve ever had.


5 posted on 03/10/2010 6:39:59 PM PST by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: CalvaryJohn
It’s been nearly 150 years. I think it’s time you got over it. History has given its verdict; Jefferson and Lincoln came out OK.

Nobody knows for sure, but I suspect if given the choice Thomas Jefferson would choose Abraham Lincoln over Jefferson Davis.

6 posted on 03/10/2010 6:41:50 PM PST by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: CalvaryJohn

Abraham Lincoln played the Southern fire-eaters like a fiddle. His secret was to use jiu-jitsu politics.

These techniques were developed around the principle of using an enemy’s energy against him,


7 posted on 03/10/2010 6:42:17 PM PST by AlanD
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To: CalvaryJohn; Colonel Kangaroo

“It’s been nearly 150 years. I think it’s time you got over it. History has given its verdict; Jefferson and Lincoln came out OK.”

A great man once said:

“The contest is not over, the strife is not ended. It has only entered upon a new and enlarged arena.”


8 posted on 03/10/2010 6:46:47 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: Idabilly
If the United States be not a government proper, but an association of States in the nature of contract merely, can it, as a contract, be peaceably unmade by less than all the parties who made it? One party to a contract may violate it—break it, so to speak—but does it not require all to lawfully rescind it?

Cordially,

9 posted on 03/10/2010 6:47:17 PM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: manc; cowboyway; Lee'sGhost; central_va; wardaddy; Bigun; rustbucket; lentulusgracchus

Ping


10 posted on 03/10/2010 6:50:38 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: Idabilly

Jefferson was one of those gifted founders who changed the world. Lincoln had 50 years and still missed most of the boat.

My vote of course, therefore is for Jefferson.


11 posted on 03/10/2010 6:52:19 PM PST by JSteff (It was ALL about SCOTUS. Most forget about that and HAVE DOOMED us for a generation or more.)
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To: JSteff
"Manfully maintain our good old principle of cherishing and fortifying the rights and authorities of the people in opposition to those who fear them, who wish to take all power from them and to transfer all to Washington." --Thomas Jefferson to Nathaniel Macon, 1826. FE 10:378

Put me down with Jefferson as well.

12 posted on 03/10/2010 6:59:34 PM PST by Spartan79
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To: Diamond
“If the United States be not a government proper, but an association of States in the nature of contract merely, can it, as a contract, be peaceably unmade by less than all the parties who made it? One party to a contract may violate it—break it, so to speak—but does it not require all to lawfully rescind it?
Cordially,”

No.
During Virginia's ratification convention

John Taylor of Caroline - Didn't stutter:

“In the creation of the federal government, the states exercised the highest act of sovereignty, and they may, if they please, repeat the proof of their sovereignty, by its annihilation. But the union possesses no innate sovereignty, like the states; it was not self-constituted; it is conventional, and of course subordinate to the sovereignties by which it was formed.

The sovereignties which imposed the limitations upon the federal government, far from supposing that they perished by the exercise of a part of their faculties, were vindicated, by reserving powers in which their deputy, the federal government, could not participate; and the usual right of sovereigns to alter or revoke its commissions. “

13 posted on 03/10/2010 7:00:38 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: Idabilly

Interesting read. But also interesting that Jefferson became president (as opposed to Burr) due to the efforts of Hamilton!


14 posted on 03/10/2010 7:03:56 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Who is John Galt?; PeaRidge

Ping


15 posted on 03/10/2010 7:07:43 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: Idabilly

Side with Jefferson....Lincoln is way down on my list..
That burning Atlanta thing was Criminal.


16 posted on 03/10/2010 7:14:16 PM PST by ustanker (Please retire Harry Byrd!)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo; Impy
>> Nobody knows for sure, but I suspect if given the choice Thomas Jefferson would choose Abraham Lincoln over Jefferson Davis. <<

I suspect you're right, and I would know that presidents such as Ronald Reagan and Andrew Jackson agreed with Lincoln's view that a state can't unilaterally secede from the rest of them and declare war on them.

Comparing the south during the civil war to the American COLONIES during the revolutionary war is a pretty weak analogy -- a state within a nation has an entirely different status than a colony under the rule of another nation. The colonies had NO representation in Parliament and were at the mercy of another place across the ocean, compared to the southern states who had the exact same rights as all the other states under the constitution, and had overrepresentation in Congress thanks to the 3/5th compromise counting millions of their slave "property" with no rights or voting power as "resident population" entitled to more Congressmen.

In order for anyone to "secede" from England in a manner similar to the civil war, Cornwall, Devon, Somset, Dorset, the Isle of Wright, Hampshire, Sussex, Kent, Surrey, Whitshire, and Bristol would have to pass ordinances announcing they were leaving the U.K. (upset that the guy they wanted for Prime Minister didn't win in the rest of the country) and forming a pro-slavery United Confederacy of Great Britain, then fire on the Queen's guards for attempting to resupply a fort that was property of the federal government.

Likewise, in order for an internal U.S. dispute to resemble the revolutionary war, the United States would have to announce the Puetro Rico will have no longer have a delegate to Congress and pass a bill ordering Puetro Ricans to pay three times the rate of everyone else for stamps that they must buy from the U.S. When Puetro Ricans protested, the U.S. would then pass a law to force them to pay exorbitant taxes on all alcohol (say, $50 for a can of beer), cigarettes, gas, and guns, which were only allowed to be purchased from the U.S. and had to be imported. When Puetro Ricans rioted in response to that, the U.S. would then pass a series of militant fascist laws effecting putting Puetro Rico under martial law and giving them zero rights and freedoms, and in every step of this process Puetro Rico would have absolutely no way to petition the U.S. about their grievances. Finally, with no other option left, the Puetro Rican Legislation would pass a resolution declaring Independence form the United States and severing its long standing ties to the mainland.

Pretty different situations. One thing I would certainly say is if Lincoln and Jefferson were alive today they'd adamantly oppose the idea of government by "politicians appointing politicians", i.e. the U.S. Senate choosen entirely by state legislatures that some founders thought was a good idea in 1776. Martha Coakley provides the latest example of why this would be a disaster if it was in effect today.

17 posted on 03/10/2010 7:15:28 PM PST by BillyBoy (Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
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To: ustanker

Jefferson.


18 posted on 03/10/2010 7:18:27 PM PST by Pantera
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To: Idabilly
Looking at it from a different angle, maybe Lincoln gets a bad rap from some quarters, after all he was only the President.

As the author of the article says, it was the War Between The States. Lincoln couldn't have done much of anything without the support of the Northern States that elected him—twice.

I read that at the beginning of the war the Regular Army had a little over 16,000 men. And at First Manassas the Union forces consisted of about 35,000 men. The difference was made up by volunteers from the States. The brunt of the war was borne by volunteers from the States, not the Regular Army. (OK, later on the volunteers might have required a little “encouragement”.)

If Lincoln had had to depend on the Regular Army, without volunteers from the States and the support of those States, the South would have won in short order.

If the Northern States had acquiesced to the secession of the Southern States, what could Lincoln (who was only the President) have done about it?

19 posted on 03/10/2010 7:19:03 PM PST by KrisKrinkle (Blessed be those who know the depth and breadth of their ignorance. Cursed be those who don't.)
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To: Diamond

If it is indeed a contract, the SOuthern States which border with Mexico may have a case against the union for breach of contract. “...provide for the common defense” is a sham along our porous southern border.


20 posted on 03/10/2010 7:22:26 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Idabilly

OR


21 posted on 03/10/2010 7:32:25 PM PST by Poe White Trash (Wake up!)
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To: ustanker
That burning Atlanta thing was Criminal.

And Federal Census data guided the pillaging!

Jefferson was a true Son of Freedom!

History has proven that Lincoln had no cause and no justification to resort to aggression and fratricide for a solution to a problem that every other civilized nation solved peacefully and with far fewer scars.

22 posted on 03/10/2010 7:48:18 PM PST by higgmeister ( In the Shadow of The Big Chicken!)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

You said it best!


23 posted on 03/10/2010 8:34:09 PM PST by tsomer
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To: Idabilly

The United States, as envisioned by the Founders, ended with Lincoln.


24 posted on 03/10/2010 8:49:28 PM PST by Prokopton
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To: AlanD

I think I read somewhere that Lincoln had stated he would do anything needed to keep the Union together.
Including finding a way to keep slavery going as an institution, if necessary.


25 posted on 03/10/2010 8:52:38 PM PST by djf (Who says "The stuff of life" is not stuff? Mostly it's people who have the most stuff.)
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To: Idabilly

Never put yourself in the position of appearing to defend the slaveocracy. That, along with Jim Crow race repression is Democrat Party history; let them defend it.

The tenth ammendment fell into disrepute because it was used to justify repression during the Jim Crow era. The whole purpose of the separation of powers vertically (local, state, federal) and horizontally (judicial, exec, legislative) is so that when one power becomes abusive you have others to appeal to. If the state is your abuser you appeal to the feds; if the feds overreach their just powers you appeal to the state or your local community. You don’t make a fetish out of any level or focus of power, the point of it all is maintaining freedom. Which ever level threatens your freedom, that is the level you resist with the other levels.

We have to reclaim the tenth ammendment. It is as important as the separation of powers between congress, president, and supreme court which are also being fuzzed together. We don’t reclaim it by justifying its abuse by the Democrats of yesteryear. We reclaim it by demanding its proper use in defense of rule of law.


26 posted on 03/10/2010 9:02:45 PM PST by marron
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

I wish Coolidge was a choice.


27 posted on 03/10/2010 9:08:41 PM PST by Raider Sam (They're on our left, right, front, and back. They aint gettin away this time!)
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To: djf
Lincoln had stated he would do anything needed to keep the Union together.

Yes, he did. He was a well known abolitionist, which is why the moment he was elected the south started seceding.

But his primary purpose was to hold the union together, and he said he would allow slavery in the south to continue to its natural death. What he would not allow was its extension into future western states.

And, if you read the articles of secession of the various states, that was what the war was about. They knew that if they couldn't spread slavery into the new states, over time the institution would eventually die out in the south too.

So from the point of view of the north, it was a war to preserve the union. From the point of view of the south it was to preserve the institution of slavery, and for both north and south the prize was the American West. It was not a war over whether or not the south would retain slavery, as Lincoln had already granted that. It was a war over who would control the west.

28 posted on 03/10/2010 9:09:19 PM PST by marron
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To: marron

Thanks. Good summary.


29 posted on 03/10/2010 9:13:55 PM PST by djf (Who says "The stuff of life" is not stuff? Mostly it's people who have the most stuff.)
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To: Prokopton

True. I dont remember which movie (I think National Treasure 2), but the main character said he loved Lincoln because before Lincoln, it was the United States are, and after it was the United States is. To me, that is the worst thing Lincoln did.


30 posted on 03/10/2010 9:15:20 PM PST by Raider Sam (They're on our left, right, front, and back. They aint gettin away this time!)
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To: Idabilly
"In the creation of the federal government, the states exercised the highest act of sovereignty, and they may, if they please, repeat the proof of their sovereignty, by its annihilation. But the union possesses no innate sovereignty, like the states; it was not self-constituted; it is conventional, and of course subordinate to the sovereignties by which it was formed."

In light of the fact that "states", "sovereignties", "they" and "their" are plural, is it a logical consequent that a single state may annihilate the federal government?

The sovereignties which imposed the limitations upon the federal government, far from supposing that they perished by the exercise of a part of their faculties, were vindicated, by reserving powers in which their deputy, the federal government, could not participate; and the usual right of sovereigns to alter or revoke its commissions. “
Again, may a single state or sovereignty alter or revoke its commissions with regard to the deputy federal government, which commissions were granted by all, or may a single state or sovereignty even remove limitations upon the federal governemnt which all the states imposed?

Cordially,

31 posted on 03/10/2010 9:32:47 PM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: CalvaryJohn
History has given its verdict

Oh, history gives out "verdicts" now ..... how perfectly Marxian. Which dialectic are we on now?

History gave a "verdict" to the Athenian, Roman, Venetian, and Florentine republics ...... but our Framers founded yet another, having refused history's "verdict" that tyranny, Caesarism, and divine right of kings are the natural order of things.

32 posted on 03/10/2010 9:51:32 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: Idabilly

That is such a gross oversimplification of each man’s views, it’s laughable.


33 posted on 03/10/2010 10:18:42 PM PST by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
Nobody knows for sure, but I suspect if given the choice Thomas Jefferson would choose Abraham Lincoln over Jefferson Davis.

Come on. You know better than that. It's been posted to you repeatedly on these boards.

Jefferson and John Quincy Adams both made statements that they'd prefer to see the Union divided peacefully, than see it bound together by violence and the spirit of empire.

34 posted on 03/10/2010 10:20:58 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: BillyBoy
Comparing the south during the civil war to the American COLONIES during the revolutionary war is a pretty weak analogy -- a state within a nation has an entirely different status than a colony under the rule of another nation.

Search up and read Madison's Federalist No. 39 for comprehension, and then get back to us. You might as well, once you've taken the trouble to find it, read Federalist No. 40 as well.

Since we're talking about the Framers, the purposes of the Republic, and Original Intent and all.

35 posted on 03/10/2010 10:36:19 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: Diamond
A State may not alter the powers of the federal government except by amending the Constitution. It may not nullify, interpose, or dispose of federal laws.

A State may remove itself from the Union by seceding from it, by the same mechanism by which it entered the Union or ratified the Constitution. In so doing, the People take their property and their geography with them, out of the Union. But the rest of the Union remains intact and fully operative in all its laws and powers, and a single State leaving the Union does not affect any aspect of federal power except as regards the departing State.

The "commissions" of the federal government were not granted by all the States, just the first nine to ratify the Constitution and bring it into effect (as per the section at the end of the Constitution dealing with ratifications).

36 posted on 03/10/2010 10:47:20 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: marron
So from the point of view of the north, it was a war to preserve the union. From the point of view of the south it was to preserve the institution of slavery, and for both north and south the prize was the American West.

I'm sorry, but you seem to have misunderstood something.

As some of us have pointed out repeatedly, the war was in fact an attempt by the Southern States to preserve their right to run their own affairs. They saw that Lincoln was bent on turning the Republic into a national empire, and they wanted out.

After all, it was Lincoln's Republicans who came up with the slogan "national greatness" in the days of William McKinley, the last President of the U.S. to have held a commission during the Civil War.

That greatness was built on the necks of the South and the West.

37 posted on 03/10/2010 10:56:22 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus

Re-read the articles of secession. The prize was the American West.


38 posted on 03/10/2010 11:00:08 PM PST by marron
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To: AlanD
Abraham Lincoln played the Southern fire-eaters like a fiddle. His secret was to use jiu-jitsu politics.

Lincoln's personal secretary John Nicolai agreed. He wrote a book about the outbreak of the Civil War and stated that Lincoln was very careful about putting the South in the wrong, for his political purposes; it was his key objective in starting the war.

39 posted on 03/10/2010 11:04:58 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: OneWingedShark
Jefferson became president (as opposed to Burr) due to the efforts of Hamilton!

Please elaborate.

Aside: Jefferson and Hamilton were once in a room together in which the former had portraits on the wall of Locke, Bacon, and Newton. Jefferson remarked that they were the three greatest men who had ever lived. Hamilton disagreed, stating that the greatest man who ever lived was Julius Caesar.

40 posted on 03/10/2010 11:06:01 PM PST by jla
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To: marron
Re-read the articles of secession. The prize was the American West.

Really? Then why no Southern claims to Nebraska? Montana and the Dakotas? They walked away from all that. All they really tried to claim was New Mexico and Arizona -- and perhaps Colorado, I'm a little iffy about that, whether Confederates were more interested in the territory or just raiding the mine shipments.

41 posted on 03/10/2010 11:07:39 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: jla
Good one.

Someone once described Hamilton's politics as "monarchy without the king". Maybe the "without" part was based on a misunderstanding!

42 posted on 03/10/2010 11:09:33 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus

They boycotted the elections because they had already made their minds up to leave the union; the election of Lincoln cinched it. He was willing to allow slavery in the states that already had it but he would not allow it to expand further west. The slavers are very clear in the articles, that this is not acceptable because it means the eventual end of the slave system. Despite Lincoln’s willingness to leave their system in place, they made the decision to break in order to preserve slavery, not merely in the south, but into the rest of the west and most importantly to avoid the natural death they foresaw if not allowed to expand.

Seriously, the slaveocracy and the Jim Crow system of race repression that followed are Democrat Party history. Let them own it. Let them defend it. Never put yourself in the position of trying to justify it. They did enormous damage to the 10th ammendment by trying to use it to justify repression rather than its natural intent, as a barrier against repression.

What the Democrats usurped in service to repression during the bad old days of Jim Crow we must now reclaim in service to freedom and rule of law.

The GOP was formed by Christians who abandoned the Whigs over its refusal to take sides on the slave issue. They were distinctly a minority party and by rights ought to have had no influence over the outcome of anything. But in a decade slavery was gone. Despite the fact that most of the country either favored slavery or didn’t care and despite the fact that their champion was willing to compromise on it, in a decade it was gone. Sometimes God gets a vote.


43 posted on 03/10/2010 11:24:16 PM PST by marron
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To: Idabilly

So what is your point in posting this Klan material? You cannot think that black slavery is going to be revived or that blacks are going to be deported to Africa, or do you?


44 posted on 03/11/2010 2:34:22 AM PST by iowamark
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To: Diamond
“Again, may a single state or sovereignty alter or revoke its commissions with regard to the deputy federal government, which commissions were granted by all, or may a single state or sovereignty even remove limitations upon the federal governemnt which all the states imposed? “

To quote Madison:

“Here, too, were facts on the other side. It has been alleged, that this contract, having been formed by unanimous consent, could only be dissolved by only unanimous consent.”

“A breach of the fundamental principles of the compact by a part of the society, would certainly absolve the other party to their obligations to it.”

During the convention,of course.....

45 posted on 03/11/2010 3:26:46 AM PST by Idabilly
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To: BillyBoy
in every step of this process Puetro Rico would have absolutely no way to petition the U.S. about their grievances.

I agree with most of your analogy, but not this section.

The colonies had all kinds of ways to petition the British government, and indeed did so. B. Franklin spent this whole period in London as a representative for a number of colonies. He did a very effective job in getting the colonial case out.

The problem is that the government and parliament decided to ignore the colonist's concerns, presented via their petitions. When they did so the colonists had no way to resist other than force.

The analogy to our present government being well aware the people oppose the health care but deciding to pass it anyway is remarkably close.

46 posted on 03/11/2010 3:37:16 AM PST by Sherman Logan ( .)
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To: iowamark
“So what is your point in posting this Klan material? You cannot think that black slavery is going to be revived or that blacks are going to be deported to Africa, or do you?”

Haven't studied history much?

Didn't States use 'nullification' against the Federal fugitive slave laws?

47 posted on 03/11/2010 3:37:34 AM PST by Idabilly
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To: Idabilly

Why don’t you answer my questions before asking ones of your own?


48 posted on 03/11/2010 3:41:06 AM PST by iowamark
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To: Raider Sam
the main character said he loved Lincoln because before Lincoln, it was the United States are, and after it was the United States is.

This is widely believed, but is not really correct.

The plural United States was universal up to the War of 1812. Thereafter the United States as singular noun became more and more common.

49 posted on 03/11/2010 3:45:34 AM PST by Sherman Logan ( .)
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To: marron
“Re-read the articles of secession. The prize was the American West.”

The horse's mouth said different:

“I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?”

50 posted on 03/11/2010 3:47:27 AM PST by Idabilly
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