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Our rights in crowded theaters (Please don't read while eating)
The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel ^ | July 22, 2012 | James Rowen

Posted on 07/22/2012 9:00:38 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

Every American student who's taken a civic class has heard Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s admonition that free speech under the US Constitution doesn't give you the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theater.

So the right to bear arms under the 2nd amendment - - written at a time when citizen militias might be needed to fend off the British or a foreign power intent on undermining the new Republic - - shouldn't mean someone has the right to barge into a crowded theater, open fire and slaughter people with powerful guns and ammunition obtained legally.

Yet we have allowed the NRA and allied wealthy conservative organizations with political and electoral agendas to distort legitimate gun ownership for hunting purposes into gun ownership without effective controls that jeopardizes public safety.

Bill Moyers has an eloquent essay about this, here.

The proof is the disproportionate share of the industrialized world's gun violence that afflicts the US, year-in and year-out.

These massacres bring concern for victims, but no remedial controls: the Aurora shootings came but five years after a higher death toll in a mass shooting at Virginia Tech, and Colorado did not toughen its gun laws after the Columbine school killings not far from Aurora...

(Excerpt) Read more at jsonline.com ...


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: aurora; banglist; colorado; occupy
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Please show me the "hunting" reference in the Second Amendment.
1 posted on 07/22/2012 9:00:57 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Please tell me what laws would have prevented this.


2 posted on 07/22/2012 9:04:55 PM PDT by umgud (No Rats, No Rino's)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s admonition that free speech under the US Constitution doesn't give you the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theater.

OWH was fos, you can do anything you want, what he neglected to say was that there are repercussions for doing it.

BTW, you can yell fire in a crowded theater with no repercussions...if there really is a fire.

In fact, if you knew there was a fire and didn't warn the peoples you would be responsible for the consequences.

3 posted on 07/22/2012 9:06:54 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Bill Moyers has an eloquent essay about this, here.

*************

OXYMORON OF THE YEAR 2012

4 posted on 07/22/2012 9:07:13 PM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (The main things are the plain things!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Bill Moyers has an eloquent essay about this, here.

*************

OXYMORON OF THE YEAR 2012

5 posted on 07/22/2012 9:07:29 PM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (The main things are the plain things!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Bill Moyers has an eloquent essay about this, here.

*************

OXYMORON OF THE YEAR 2012

6 posted on 07/22/2012 9:07:39 PM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (The main things are the plain things!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

What are they talking about?

American students don’t take civics classes anymore. These kids today have no idea who Oliver Wendell Holmes was.


7 posted on 07/22/2012 9:08:09 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

What a turd. Does anyone disagree that “the right to bear arms under the 2nd amendment...shouldn’t mean someone has the right to barge into a crowded theater, open fire and slaughter people with powerful guns and ammunition obtained legally?”


8 posted on 07/22/2012 9:09:10 PM PDT by Dr. Pritchett
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

So what if someone DOES run into a theater and shouts, “FIRE!” What do we ban, his tonsils? Rowen is a moron.


9 posted on 07/22/2012 9:11:04 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Without the Second Amendment, the other twenty-six will cease to exist.)
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To: Las Vegas Ron

Tossing a handful of lit firecrackers into a Batman matinee this weekend would probably be prosecutable as a top-level felony.


10 posted on 07/22/2012 9:11:38 PM PDT by research99
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To: research99
Tossing a handful of lit firecrackers into a Batman matinee this weekend would probably be prosecutable as a top-level felony.

And that has what to do with my comment?

11 posted on 07/22/2012 9:17:24 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Will some Democrats try to push Obama into addressing gun control in the next few months?


12 posted on 07/22/2012 9:18:09 PM PDT by kempster
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“The proof is the disproportionate share of the industrialized world’s gun violence that afflicts the US, year-in and year-out. “

Stupid liberals. The only PROOF here is that liberals once again have proven they are violent idiots. We should ban liberalism and send them to re-education camps where we can deprogram them from the communist proganda they get day in and day out.


13 posted on 07/22/2012 9:20:38 PM PDT by CodeToad (History says our end is near.)
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To: kempster
Will some Democrats try to push Obama into addressing gun control in the next few months?

I hope so, they lost the public on that issue more than a decade ago, and a presidential election (2000) to boot.

14 posted on 07/22/2012 9:20:52 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (Liberals, at their core, are aggressive & dangerous to everyone around them,)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

What are they talking about?

American students don’t take civics classes anymore. These kids today have no idea who Oliver Wendell Holmes was.


15 posted on 07/22/2012 9:22:35 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

From the comment section, it doesn’t appear that MJS readers buy this crap either.


16 posted on 07/22/2012 9:22:42 PM PDT by digger48
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Nothing could have prevented this.

The entitlement mentality fed by liberal politicians and the LSM have given people like Holmes the idea that they can do as they please. Hollywood is the fuse and liberal hatemongers are the fire.

Liberals scream gun control and one of their koolaid drinkers is more than willing to step-up and give them fuel for the fire. I find it strange that the moment a liberal pol. starts talking about GC, then something like this happens. Gabby Giffords was their first poster child. Now they will have 12 more innocents to add. Never let a crisis go to waste.

Sure took attention away from F&F and security leaks though.

God bless all the victims of this mad man.


17 posted on 07/22/2012 9:23:54 PM PDT by mardi59 (THE REBELLION IS ON!!!)
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To: FlingWingFlyer
So what if someone DOES run into a theater and shouts, “FIRE!” What do we ban, his tonsils? Rowen is a moron.

We could tape their mouth shut, so they could never speak again, forever.....many here justify that remedy for our 2A rights.

18 posted on 07/22/2012 9:25:12 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Americans respond:

Colorado Gun Sales Surge in Wake of Massacre

19 posted on 07/22/2012 9:27:22 PM PDT by meadsjn (Sarah 2012, or sooner)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
jer45y@yahoo.com You should stick to hugging trees. Because you don't know jack shit about guns.
20 posted on 07/22/2012 9:27:22 PM PDT by digger48
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

there’s a reason this is in the smoke shack i guess


21 posted on 07/22/2012 9:28:27 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (let me ABOs run loose, lew (or is that lou?))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest single cases of mass murder inflicted on US citizens was 911, OKC bombing, and the Happy Land Social club fire.

Nobody got shot by an evil gun in any of those events.

22 posted on 07/22/2012 9:28:31 PM PDT by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
So the right to bear arms under the 2nd amendment - - written at a time when citizen militias might be needed to fend off the British or a foreign power intent on undermining the new Republic

Should read:

So the right to bear arms under the 2nd amendment - - written at a time when citizen militias might be needed to fend off the British an overbearing and overtaxing government or a foreign power (muslims) intent on undermining the new Republic

23 posted on 07/22/2012 9:28:59 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (Liberals, at their core, are aggressive & dangerous to everyone around them,)
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To: mardi59

A sufficiently armed presence in the theater may have served to cut a massacre like this much shorter than the perpetrator had envisioned.


24 posted on 07/22/2012 9:30:13 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (let me ABOs run loose, lew (or is that lou?))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I don’t read anything in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel while eating..... or picking my nose... or sitting on the toilet.... or any other time. I don’t want to read anything in that Communist rag.


25 posted on 07/22/2012 9:36:14 PM PDT by pistolpackinpapa (Why is it that you never see any Obama bumper stickers on cars going to work in the mornings?)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

They would have to have had the skills of a sniper. This scumbag was wearing protective gear. He was ready to do great harm and he did do great harm.

Even armed, the person would have had to duck and cover when he started firing. People would still have died.


26 posted on 07/22/2012 9:37:01 PM PDT by mardi59 (THE REBELLION IS ON!!!)
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To: Balding_Eagle

That was my thinking process on this. If Lautenberg does try top bring a bill forward it needs to shouted from the rafters and shared on You Tube, Social Media sites and the like. The public must know and the media will not do their job.


27 posted on 07/22/2012 9:37:41 PM PDT by kempster
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To: mardi59

Armed self defense ain’t a perfect system and heroes/heroines would probably have sacrificed themselves shooting at and/or storming the attacker. But again, someone donning a face shield (they don’t get welcomed into the theater that way do they?) should have been a giveaway to something wicked afoot.


28 posted on 07/22/2012 9:41:43 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (let me ABOs run loose, lew (or is that lou?))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Every American student who's taken a civic class has heard Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s admonition that free speech under the US Constitution doesn't give you the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theater.

Holmes was wrong. So is this article. End of story.
29 posted on 07/22/2012 9:43:32 PM PDT by arderkrag (ABOs are Romneybot trolls. LOOKING FOR ROLEPLAYERS. Check Profile.)
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To: arderkrag

If there is a fire, that is one of the most sensible things to shout.


30 posted on 07/22/2012 9:45:41 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (let me ABOs run loose, lew (or is that lou?))
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To: HiTech RedNeck

I’m a female and trained to use my .357 Colt Python. It is times like this that I wish I could have been there, not for heroics sake, but to just save the lives of the innocent.

I would have done what I could. His legs, his face, any free area that would have taken him off balance and made it easier to either kill or incompacitate him, but sadly I was not there. I just wish someone had been, to atleast try.

I agree with you.


31 posted on 07/22/2012 9:49:25 PM PDT by mardi59 (THE REBELLION IS ON!!!)
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To: mardi59

In this case I don’t think that would have helped.
Darkened theater. Filled with tear gas. Body armored wearing attacker. Gunshots and chaos on the screen. Who in costume is attacker and who is just a movie viewer? I don’t think there is anything that would have improved it at the time. Probably would have added to the confusion and made things a lot worse.


32 posted on 07/22/2012 9:51:41 PM PDT by christx30 (Freedom above all.)
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To: mardi59
They would have to have had the skills of a sniper. This scumbag was wearing protective gear.

Nonsense. There are several options that would have made his body armour useless.

33 posted on 07/22/2012 9:52:12 PM PDT by papertyger ("And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if..."))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
So the right to bear arms under the 2nd amendment shouldn't mean someone has the right to barge into a crowded theater, open fire and slaughter people with powerful guns and ammunition obtained legally.

There was a time, not too long ago, that this writer's editor would fire him for even proposing such an asinine rape of logic - and punch him in the mouth on his way out the door.

Today, all we can do is point out that the 2nd Amendment was acknowledged, among other things, to make sure the audience of a crowded theater attacked by a madman would be able to FIGHT BACK.

And that potential madmen, knowing that crowds would all have this ability, would decrease in number, since such madmen are, by definition, cowards (crazy or not).

That's why, for example, this latest crazy bastard surrendered when the police showed up. Why? BECAUSE THE POLICE WOULD HAVE SHOT HIM OTHERWISE.

Vile Liar, thy name is Leftist.

34 posted on 07/22/2012 9:53:38 PM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: CodeToad

Why attempt deprogramming of anyone?

Just institute poll tests and exclude all collectivists.

Sneaking back to illegally vote would result in a call to ALPO.


35 posted on 07/22/2012 9:54:42 PM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: mardi59
I would have done what I could. His legs, his face, any free area that would have taken him off balance and made it easier to either kill or incompacitate him, but sadly I was not there.

Just shoot center mass, body armor or not. Think of the bullet impacts as hitting him with a baseball bat - he might survive, but he's definitely going to lose his concentration and probably his balance. So just keep shooting.

And just imagine if only 1% of the people were armed - 400 people, would mean four people shooting at the bastard. He'd have gone down in a bloody heap long before he could shoot 71 people.

And THEN imagine this actually happened - 4 people shooting a bastard in theater, and taking him out. FROM THEN ON, how many people would pack a gun in a theater? The next bastard who tried it would be shot a thousand times before he could get off his second shot.

And after that, there would NEVER be another gun grabber political attack in America again. The next piece of crap liberal to suggest it anywhere in the country would be run out of town on a rail - as they should be.

36 posted on 07/22/2012 9:59:40 PM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
So the right to bear arms under the 2nd amendment - - written at a time when citizen militias might be needed to fend off the British or a foreign power intent on undermining the new Republic -

That ain't what the 2ND was written for --it was to keep the people free from a dictatorship of federal government not a foreign power
37 posted on 07/22/2012 10:00:36 PM PDT by uncbob
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
shouldn't mean someone has the right to barge into a crowded theater, open fire and slaughter people with powerful guns and ammunition obtained legally.

Tell me when ANY SANE PERSON has said this is a right!

38 posted on 07/22/2012 10:01:49 PM PDT by Domandred (Fdisk, format, and reinstall the entire .gov system.)
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To: umgud

Why is it that when talking about gun ownership, the sport of hunting and home protection are assumed to be the only purposes for owning weapons?

The most eloquent explanation of the Second Amendment, I’ve ever heard is that, “The Second Amendment is the reset button of the Constitution.”

Where I went to school and my personal readings of the Federal show that the Founding Fathers included the Second Amendment because of their justified distrust of large, central governments; so they included the Second Amendment to allow the American to face a large, central government, hostile to the wants and demands of the people, much like we have today.

I forget the name of the Senator, who said they had no problem with people owning weapons used for hunting, but felt rifles, as the AR-15, AR-10, etc, should not be allowed.

I personally owned both of the aforementioned rifles and must say that they are both my favorite rifles to fire, with the exception of my Savage 10, when shooting from the 500 meter line.

An education program is much overdue to let the American people know what the intent of the Founding Fathers were and to never allow ourselves to be lulled into thinking that our government is a benign, benevolent government, whose only purpose is to help us.


39 posted on 07/22/2012 10:01:57 PM PDT by cgchief
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To: mardi59

Ma’am, more (fire) power to you. I’m a fellow, but I think I know how you feel. Women can be very very protective. As Rudyard Kipling put it, the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

I’m musing on how the attacker got all that junk, armor and arms and tear gas bombs, in the theater. I’d guess it was the custom at Batman premieres to dress up in costume, so an odd looking get-up and a big shopping bag full of stuff wouldn’t draw too many odd looks from the doormen. Methinks that policy will probably change. It’s a shame since one ought to be free to dress up like Halloween in a movie if he or she wishes. I’d never celebrate a Batman movie that way, but others might.


40 posted on 07/22/2012 10:03:12 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (let me ABOs run loose, lew (or is that lou?))
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To: Las Vegas Ron

Why is it that when talking about gun ownership, the sport of hunting and home protection are assumed to be the only purposes for owning weapons?

The most eloquent explanation of the Second Amendment, I’ve ever heard is that, “The Second Amendment is the reset button of the Constitution.”

Where I went to school and my personal readings of the Federal show that the Founding Fathers included the Second Amendment because of their justified distrust of large, central governments; so they included the Second Amendment to allow the American to face a large, central government, hostile to the wants and demands of the people, much like we have today.

I forget the name of the Senator, who said they had no problem with people owning weapons used for hunting, but felt rifles, as the AR-15, AR-10, etc, should not be allowed.

I personally owned both of the aforementioned rifles and must say that they are both my favorite rifles to fire, with the exception of my Savage 10, when shooting from the 500 meter line.

An education program is much overdue to let the American people know what the intent of the Founding Fathers were and to never allow ourselves to be lulled into thinking that our government is a benign, benevolent government, whose only purpose is to help us.


41 posted on 07/22/2012 10:03:24 PM PDT by cgchief
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To: christx30

I’d hope that whoever was in the projection booth would have been alert enough to stop the movie and put the house lights on... I have been singularly uninterested in the grody details to this point. But anyhow, the odds could not be WORSE with decent, honest folks packing.


42 posted on 07/22/2012 10:05:41 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (let me ABOs run loose, lew (or is that lou?))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Well obviously “James Rowen” WTH he is, hasn’t taken a civics class because Holmes’ opinion said FALSELY shout “Fire” Big difference there, Jimbo.

Where do they find these dumbasses? Seriously.

And this:

“shouldn’t mean someone has the right to barge into a crowded theater, open fire and slaughter people with powerful guns and ammunition obtained legally.”

The “right to barge into a crowded theatre and open fire” . . . . lol...........WHOEVER argued that “right” ? This guy’s 100% idiot

But there’s more?

“bi-partisan political cowardice . . .”? Oh like bipartisan efforts to take on Hollyweird’s violence? Rap’s violence? How about the cowardice that won’t speak out against the most violent constituencies, that just so happen to vote 90% Democratic? See Chicago and Detroit, James.


43 posted on 07/22/2012 10:08:12 PM PDT by A_Former_Democrat
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To: cgchief
I hear ya FRiend, I hear ya.

((((hand shake))))

44 posted on 07/22/2012 10:09:48 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: mardi59

So it would have been better not to be carrying and at least being able to try?

FR is littered with sheep lately.


45 posted on 07/22/2012 10:15:40 PM PDT by Eaker (When somebody hands you your arse, don't give it back saying "This needs a little more tenderizing.")
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To: research99

I believe the best way to stop a gunman from shooting up a crowd is to have more people in the crowd carrying concealed weapons! No,I’m not sure if it would help but I do know that if one man walks into to a theater with two guns and there are 20 people with one gun each that he would have problems running with 30 pounds of lead in his A#$


46 posted on 07/22/2012 10:18:07 PM PDT by Blitzcreek
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To: mardi59

I don’t know about u but if I’m was going to get shot and die in that theater I would like to atleast had the chance to shoot back


47 posted on 07/22/2012 10:18:23 PM PDT by Blitzcreek
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To: HiTech RedNeck

I think fire in a theater is a wrong example lets try bomb on a airplane!


48 posted on 07/22/2012 10:18:31 PM PDT by Blitzcreek
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To: christx30

I think I could make out a Guy with an ar rifle firing rapidly


49 posted on 07/22/2012 10:18:42 PM PDT by Blitzcreek
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To: christx30

Non sense had a cop been in the movie with pistol the outcome WOULD have been different


50 posted on 07/22/2012 10:18:57 PM PDT by Blitzcreek
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