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Why? Why Aurora, Ft. Hood, Gabby Giffords, VA Tech...(Blech!)
Patch ^ | July 24, 2012 | Heather Borden Herve

Posted on 08/07/2012 2:30:45 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

Will it ever stop? Not at the rate we’re going. Will it stop with absolutist arguments from either side on the gun debate? Not with the ‘You’ll-only-pry-this-weapon-out-of-my-cold-dead-hands’ mentality nor with the ‘Make-all-guns-illegal' argument either.

Why?

Why does Aurora happen?

What does it say about us as a culture, that this kind of thing happens here? That it happens here more than it happens any other place in the world?

We’re not at war at home. We’re not in a place where suicide bombings happen, and we’re not currently engaged in a religious or territorial war within our own borders.

Why does it happen here?

What does it say about us as a culture that it does happen here? What does it say about us as a culture that we glorify guns, even eroticize guns, and market them in the way the billboard image I’ve used with this column does?

What does it say about us as a culture that some people seek out fame, infamy or a perceived glory by going down guns a’blazing, in a hail of bullets and a stream of gunfire?

What does it say about us as a culture that there are people who turn to that? And what does it say about us as a culture that they can easily get the means to do that? That every move made by the Aurora shooting suspect James Holmes, up until the moment that he tossed his first smoke bomb in the movie theater, was legal?

He obtained the guns legally, including an assault rifle that had been banned for sale to civilians until that ban expired in 2004. He obtained the ammunition—6,000 rounds of ammo—legally.

In our culture, we do have an ongoing verbal and political battle over the freedom and right to bear arms, and perhaps it needs to be reframed as a question between the right to bear arms and the freedom and right to go to a movie theater without getting shot. Just as important as the right to bear arms is the freedom and the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I’m not saying that the right to bear arms is not something that deserves to be protected. I am not against the Second Amendment. Let me state that again, loud and clear, especially for those of you who in the past have thought I was, (including those who put me on a pro-gun, anti-gun-control ‘Bang List’):

I am not against the Second Amendment.

However, what is it about our culture that allows bad people to easily have access to such destructive weaponry? Why didn’t somebody purchasing 6,000 rounds of ammunition set off some kind of alarm somewhere? Why don’t we have that built into the structure of how someone can legally and safely obtain that amount of terror?

Didn’t anyone wonder why someone might need to have that much automatic weaponry? Is that rational, even for someone who just wants to hunt legally, or shoot target practice legally.

One Denver columnist posed the question asking if James Holmes had instead been named Ibrahim or Mohammed, would someone have stopped to ask ‘why?’ then.

In the days after Holmes walked into that midnight screening of The Dark Knight Rises, there were critics who said, “Oh sure, this tragedy is just gonna get politicized.” And I know someone will accuse me of politicizing it because I’ve written this column. But discourse, debate and discussion is exactly what should happen after this kind of awful, horrible event—rational dialogue about how our country and our culture handles this idea of what having the right to bear arms really means.

In fact, to me, shutting down that conversation would be politicizing it more so than any kind of examination of how much arms are too much.

Undoubtedly, someone will make the argument that our nation’s forefathers and founders wanted to protect the right to bear arms in the U.S. Constitution. I’m sure they did. However, the rational thinker in me has to counter-argue that I can’t imagine they could have dreamed up the kinds of weaponry and arms we now find available.

We, as a nation, have to have this conversation. On behalf of the 12 victims who were killed by James Holmes’ bullets, and on behalf of the 59 other victims who were injured by James Holmes’ bullets, and on behalf of the hundreds of those 71 victims’ family members, and on behalf of the millions of other people who all weekend asked, “Why?”—we need to have this conversation.

We need to have this conversation because of people like Texas Rep. Louie Gohmert from TX, who questioned why people in the movie theater didn’t have a gun to defend themselves. Or because of former Arizona State Senator Russell Pearce, who posted on Facebook about those moviegoers in the Aurora theater that they should have been more brave and prepared—in other words, armed.

Those statements—which amount to blame-the-victims—is just what we need, right? We need the return to the Wild West inside that darkened movie theater, with more bullets from all sides flying across the theater in the pitch black dark.

Has that ever worked? Has anyone in the middle of a mass shooting massacre ever been stopped by a gun-wielding hero who wasn’t a police officer called to the scene?

Obviously, I’m impassioned and emotional about this, as we should be when 12 people are killed in senseless gunfire. We should be saddened, we should be horrified, and we should be moved to have rational discussion about how to make this less likely to happen again.

Will it ever stop? For sure, not at the rate we’re going. Will it stop with blind, absolute arguments from either side on the gun control debate? Not with the ‘You’ll-only-pry-this-weapon-out-of-my-cold-dead-hands’ mentality nor with the ‘Make-all-guns-illegal’ approach either.

How about we start by taking both of those options off the table.

But let’s find some middle, rational ground.

Let’s listen to sane voices like Jim and Sarah Brady, who said in a statement after the Aurora shootings: “Congress has done nothing since the mid-1990s to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people. We pledge to keep fighting the NRA and entire gun lobby in an effort to strengthen our background checks to include all firearm purchases, ban assault clips with large magazines that enable mass killers, and to make it more difficult to obtain concealed carry permits.”

Or even conservative columnist Bill Kristol, who said “People have a right to handguns and hunting rifles,” he said. “I don’t think they have a right to semi-automatic, quasi-machine guns that can shoot hundred bullets at a time. And I actually think the Democrats are being foolish as they are being cowardly. I think there is more support for some moderate forms of gun control.”

Or even New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who called on each of the Presidential candidates “to stand up and tell us what they’re going to do about it.”

So that we may someday have fewer and fewer of these conversations. So that we may have fewer times we have to ask, ‘Why?’ Why Aurora? Why Ft. Hood? Why Gabby Giffords? Why Virginia Tech?

We need to ask, ‘Why?’ a lot less, and we need to say ‘No more. Let’s make this stop.’


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; aurora; banglist; brady; bradycampaign; bradywatch; comeandtakeit; firearms; secondamendment; vatech; youwillnotdisarmus
This is like a Pacific Islander giving a lecture on airplanes and flight, yet has never actually seen one, much less flown on or piloted one. Doesn't she realize that the criminal did not have a "machine gun" but rather a semiautomatic rifle. Anyone here could have inflicted similar damage with a common as dirt .22LR Marlin with a tubular magazine or an old-fashioned Winchester lever action in any caliber. She did hint around at limiting ammo sales, which will be their next tactic, I'm sure.
1 posted on 08/07/2012 2:30:49 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Another disingenuous appeal that we find “common ground” using “common sense” that then demands that we disarm ourselves, except for a few hunting rifles and handguns.

If the Second Amendment is about protecting our right to own muskets, then the First is about printing presses and the freedom to choose which Protestant denomination you want to join.


2 posted on 08/07/2012 2:38:16 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The Second Amendment itself is the solution to all these mass killings. If the People were armed, and everyone KNEW that the People were armed, then none of the cowards who committed these acts WOULD HAVE DARED do what they did. Implement the Second Amendment fully by not INFRINGING (look it up) on the right to keep and bear arms, and the People will be secure at home and everywhere.


3 posted on 08/07/2012 2:45:11 PM PDT by caddie
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To: caddie

Notice this almost never happens in the South (especially Texas...Ft. Hood was an exception, the Muslim doctor knew troops couldn’t go armed on post) but rather up North and in places like California? There’s a reason for that. If he’d tried that crap in a theatre in Dallas/Fort Worth, San Antonio, Houston or El Paso, he’d have had time to get off maybe 5-6 shots before he died in a hail of bullets.


4 posted on 08/07/2012 2:50:06 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
but let's find some middle, rational ground.

Sounds like they're "asking" us to take a couple of steps backwards. I'm only interested in taking a few steps forward. There is no compromising with the leftists on this issue. There is no middle ground here. Not one step backwards. NEVER!

5 posted on 08/07/2012 2:51:50 PM PDT by RC one (this space intentionally left blank)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

She is also not very well acquainted with human nature. If she actually looks through history, senseless wholesale slaughter is pretty common. It actually seems to have decreased in recent years.


6 posted on 08/07/2012 2:53:05 PM PDT by Little Ray (AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
“I don’t think they have a right to semi-automatic, quasi-machine guns that can shoot hundred bullets at a time.


7 posted on 08/07/2012 3:10:26 PM PDT by bill1952 (Choice is an illusion created between those with power - and those without)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Why? Why does Aurora happen?
The length of your article shows you are over thinking this.
It happened because evil exists.


8 posted on 08/07/2012 3:14:26 PM PDT by SECURE AMERICA (Where can I sign up for the New American Revolution and the Crusades 2012?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

(What does it say about us as a culture, that this kind of thing happens here? That it happens here more than it happens any other place in the world?)

WOW. This shows you really need to get out more.
I can give you a list of oh 12-15 Country’s that you should try living in for even 6 months. You would come screaming back here and be kissing the ground.


9 posted on 08/07/2012 3:17:00 PM PDT by SECURE AMERICA (Where can I sign up for the New American Revolution and the Crusades 2012?)
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To: SECURE AMERICA

Some nut in China killed seven people with a knife the other day. Let’s have a deep chin-pulling discussion about what this means for China as a country.


10 posted on 08/07/2012 3:23:18 PM PDT by Argus
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
The common element that these mass shootings occur in “Gun-Free” zones should provide a clue to the clueless.

No matter what, you won’t be able to get rid of guns, of knives for that matter – so maybe we should get rid of the “Gun-Free” zones and let people defend themselves.

Or does that make too much sense?

11 posted on 08/07/2012 3:24:27 PM PDT by Voice of Reason1 (Absolute power corrupts absolutely Lord Acton 1887)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Has that ever worked? Has anyone in the middle of a mass shooting massacre ever been stopped by a gun-wielding hero who wasn’t a police officer called to the scene?

Wasn't there a campus shooting where a couple students with guns held the shooter at bay until the police arrived? Or did they just tackle the guy? Help me out here. And for sure, Trolley Square was an OFF-DUTY police officer who cornered the shooter and kept him from killing more people until more police arrived.

12 posted on 08/07/2012 3:39:43 PM PDT by Hoffer Rand (There ARE two Americas: "God's children" and the tax payers)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

A culture that devalues virtue is guaranteed to turn into a hell on earth.

A republic rests upon the virtue of its citizens.

Beyond that, the Second Ammendment isn’t just about the right to bear arms. It is about the basic responsibility of self-defense. You have a responsibility to defend yourself and your family. The 2nd Ammendment just guarantees you the tools to do the job.


13 posted on 08/07/2012 3:44:58 PM PDT by marron
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Will it ever stop? Not at the rate we’re going. Why?

Why are over 9,000 blacks killed by other blacks each year? This number is over 70 times the number of all “mass shootings” each year combined. Why do we focus on “mass shootings” instead of the thousands of blacks cut down by other blacks?

What does it say about us as a culture, that this kind of thing happens here? That it happens here more than it happens any other place in the world?

We’re not at war at home. We’re not in a place where suicide bombings happen, and we’re not currently engaged in a religious or territorial war within our own borders.

Why does it happen here?

What does it say about us as a culture that it does happen here? What does it say about us as a culture that we ignore the real problem and instead focus on outlier events? Are we afraid to have a real conversation on intra-race murder epidemic?

What does it say about us as a culture that some people seek out fame, infamy or a perceived glory by singling out white on black murders while these are by far the exception?

What does it say about us as a culture that there are people who turn to pimping murder victims for profit and fame? And what does it say about us as a culture that they allowed to do that?

In our culture, we do have an ongoing verbal and political battle over the freedom and right to bear arms, and perhaps it needs to be reframed as a question of why illegal guns in the inner city Democratic ghettos are the chosen tools of the ongoing massacre of blacks. These areas have the strictest gun control laws in the nation, and the highest murder rates.

What is it about our culture that thinks gun control laws will stop bad people from having access to guns? Every shred of evidence we have indicates the more guns in circulation, the less crime. Why don’t we let law abiding citizens in our inner cities have the tools they need to defend themselves?

We, as a nation, have to have this conversation. On behalf of the 9,000 blacks killed each year by other blacks, we need to have this conversation.

Obviously, I’m impassioned and emotional about this, as we should be when thousands are killed in senseless gunfire. We should be saddened, we should be horrified, and we should be moved to have rational discussion about how to make this less likely to happen.

Will it ever stop? For sure, not at the rate we’re going. The number of blacks killing blacks has hit an all time high and continues to increase.

We need to ask, ‘Why?’

14 posted on 08/07/2012 4:18:11 PM PDT by Gabrial (The nightmare will continue as long as the nightmare is in the White House)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
that can shoot hundred bullets at a time

Channeling an A-10. "Shoot to thrill".


15 posted on 08/07/2012 4:28:51 PM PDT by caveat emptor (Zippity Do Dah)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Has that ever worked? Has anyone in the middle of a mass shooting massacre ever been stopped by a gun-wielding hero who wasn’t a police officer called to the scene?

Yes, it has. in the Texas Tower shootings. I quote from the Wiki article:

Approximately 20 minutes after he had first fired from the observation deck, Whitman began encountering return fire from the authorities and armed civilians who had converged with personal firearms to assist police... Ramiro Martinez, an officer who participated in stopping Whitman's rampage, later stated that the civilian shooters should be credited as they made it difficult for Whitman to take careful aim.

We've had the conversation. The answer is "no".

16 posted on 08/07/2012 4:38:35 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

No one can stop bad people from trying to shoot someone, but good people with guns can stop that person immediately.

Therefore, what we need is more guns in the hands of good people. Every Freeper needs a gun or two or three to stop these bad people. I’m a good Freeper because I have a gun or two or three. Do you? Prepare.


17 posted on 08/07/2012 4:50:26 PM PDT by Marcella (PREPARE)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I tried to read it but, Heather’s an idiot. It’d be easier for me to try and chew my toenails...and I’m 6’3.


18 posted on 08/07/2012 5:09:58 PM PDT by Psycho_Bunny (OWS = The Great American Snivel War)
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To: Bryanw92
In my reading of the 2d amendment it does not seem to be discussing a hunting type gun...It is empowering “We the People” to protect ourselves from an overbearing and rapacious government. A bolt action rifle can arguably a military weapon, but this 101st Veteran would appreciate something a little bit more effective at getting a lot more messages down range.
19 posted on 08/07/2012 5:46:58 PM PDT by coldflamingo (Old Paratrooper/Nam Vet/Retired SFC USArmy)
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To: Bryanw92
In my reading of the 2d amendment it does not seem to be discussing a hunting type gun...It is empowering “We the People” to protect ourselves from an overbearing and rapacious government. A bolt action rifle can arguably a military weapon, but this 101st Veteran would appreciate something a little bit more effective at getting a lot more messages down range.
20 posted on 08/07/2012 5:46:58 PM PDT by coldflamingo (Old Paratrooper/Nam Vet/Retired SFC USArmy)
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To: coldflamingo

Sorry about the double post also ...rifle can be,


21 posted on 08/07/2012 5:58:34 PM PDT by coldflamingo (Old Paratrooper/Nam Vet/Retired SFC USArmy)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Notice this almost never happens in the South (especially Texas...

Lubbys' Cafeteria Massacre

Charles Whitman (University of Texas Shooter)

22 posted on 08/07/2012 6:02:18 PM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (I made a prank call...pretended I was a mime.)
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To: Half Vast Conspiracy

Those were both AGES ago.


23 posted on 08/07/2012 6:06:23 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
‘Why?’ Why Aurora? Why Ft. Hood? Why Gabby Giffords? Why Virginia Tech?

Because we passed the nineteenth amendment to the Constitution which allowed over emotional stupid women to elect politicians that are over emotional and non-thinking just like themselves.

This resulted in the ever growing nanny state, gun free zones and the codling of criminals and the end of the death penalty in a quick and sure manner.

This will soon right itself though. Thanks to stupid women like yourself, the forced chickification of America will let the muslims take over our society and you and your kind will find themselves wearing burkas and getting your once a day beatings that you so much deserve.

24 posted on 08/07/2012 7:17:13 PM PDT by metalurgist ( Want your country back? It'll take guns and rope. Marxists won't give up peaceably.)
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To: metalurgist
Robert Heinlien, in his masterpiece Starship Troopers proposed that only military veterans be able to vote. Imagine what this country would be like were that rule enacted.
25 posted on 08/07/2012 7:24:56 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I just ran the numbers from here: List of Massacres in the US

The top states, since 1900, are:

CA - 11
WA - 5
CO - 4
IL - 4
MA - 4
NY - 4
TX - 4

I don't know how good this list is, because I can think of 2 more in WA (Fairchild AFB-1994-4 dead-22 injured and Carnation-2007-6 dead)

Point taken.

26 posted on 08/07/2012 7:56:30 PM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (I made a prank call...pretended I was a mime.)
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To: Half Vast Conspiracy

Texas has many more people than any state on that list, save for California, so per capita, it’s probably less.


27 posted on 08/07/2012 7:58:48 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Those were both AGES ago.

Lubby's was in 1991.

28 posted on 08/07/2012 8:01:35 PM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (I made a prank call...pretended I was a mime.)
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To: Half Vast Conspiracy

Almost 22 years ago. Long time.


29 posted on 08/07/2012 8:08:01 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
only military veterans be able to vote. Imagine what this country would be like were that rule enacted.

That would be OK at first. But, after a while we would become too combative as a society. Picture the Klingons.

I'd be ecstatic if you had to be a property owner or a tradesman to vote and had to be a military vet to be eligible to be president.

30 posted on 08/07/2012 8:46:41 PM PDT by metalurgist ( Want your country back? It'll take guns and rope. Marxists won't give up peaceably.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Why does Aurora happen?

Middle age loser decides on Suicide by cop fame after he is dumped by his girlfriend.

Totally the chick's fault!

31 posted on 08/07/2012 9:59:23 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Literals will believe anything.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

On behalf of the 12 victims who were killed by James Holmes’ bullets, and on behalf of the 59 other victims who were injured by James Holmes’ bullets, and on behalf of the hundreds of those 71 victims’ family members, and on behalf of the millions of other people who all weekend asked, “Why?”


Yes, why don’t these incidents happen where people are free to carry in movie theaters?


32 posted on 08/08/2012 9:47:47 AM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (If there is a war on women, the Kennedys are the Spec Ops troops.)
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To: metalurgist

That would be OK at first. But, after a while we would become too combative as a society. Picture the Klingons.


You say that as if it would be a bad thing!


33 posted on 08/08/2012 9:51:33 AM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (If there is a war on women, the Kennedys are the Spec Ops troops.)
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To: Half Vast Conspiracy; 2ndDivisionVet

The State of Washington is on this list, which is surprising.

About half our citizens are carrying concelaed guns as any one time.

There aren’t that many mini market hold-ups statewide because a criminal never knows how many others in the store will drill him/her.


34 posted on 08/09/2012 1:28:58 AM PDT by SatinDoll (NATURAL BORN CITZEN: BORN IN THE USA OF CITIZEN PARENTS.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Has that ever worked? Has anyone in the middle of a mass shooting massacre ever been stopped by a gun-wielding hero who wasn’t a police officer called to the scene?

75% of mass shootings are stopped by civilians: Link. Of those, one third are stopped by armed civilians. The total breakdown is as follows:

Stopped by police: 25%

Stopped by unarmed civilians: 50%

Stopped by armed civilians: 25% (same as stopped by police).

End of argument (sources at link)...

35 posted on 08/22/2012 10:19:33 AM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: Half Vast Conspiracy

Texas passed their law permitting concealed carry in 1995. Thank you for making our (the 2nd Amendment crowd’s) point for us...


36 posted on 08/22/2012 10:24:47 AM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: piytar
Thank you for making our (the 2nd Amendment crowd’s) point for us...
Did you somehow think that I was not apart of that crowd??
37 posted on 08/23/2012 5:22:09 PM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (I made a prank call...pretended I was a mime.)
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To: Half Vast Conspiracy

Yeah, I didn’t phrase that well, did I? I meant to include you in the “our,” but after hitting “post,” I realized it didn’t read that way. My bad...


38 posted on 08/23/2012 5:34:22 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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