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RedBlueAmerica: Does Second Amendment guarantee right of rebellion?
The Record Searchlight ^ | January 6, 2013 | Ben Boychuk and Joel Mathis

Posted on 01/09/2013 6:55:16 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet

The renewed debate over gun rights that has followed the massacre of elementary schoolchildren in Newtown, Conn., has included scrutiny over why gun advocates believe they need a right to bear arms. Among the reasons: Many advocates believe that individual gun ownership helps preserve American liberty, making government fearful of trampling on rights of its citizens. If government goes too far, the argument goes, Americans have the right to revolt by force.

Is that argument correct? Or does it belong to fringe gun enthusiasts? Joel Mathis and Ben Boychuk, the RedBlueAmerica columnists, debate the question.

Joel Mathis

Does the Second Amendment guarantee a right to armed rebellion? Who cares? We Americans are heirs to revolutionaries, men who pledged their fortunes and their honors to each other to break away from a repressive empire and start a new country — one whose rhetoric of freedom and liberty that has required most of the last two centuries to come to fruition in the lives of most of our fellow citizens.

But even in the midst of revolution, the Founders were also cautious.

In the Declaration of Independence, they asserted the right to "alter or abolish" governments in favor of new forms more likely to serve the happiness of the people. Such moments, they warned, are exceedingly rare...

(Excerpt) Read more at redding.com ...


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: banglist; cw2; cwii; guncontrol; revolution; secondamendment
Comments?
1 posted on 01/09/2013 6:55:25 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Thr right of armed rebellion is a right that free men reserve unto themselves.


2 posted on 01/09/2013 6:59:00 PM PST by Farmer Dean (stop worrying about what they want to do to you,start thinking about what you want to do to them)
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To: Farmer Dean

AMEN!


3 posted on 01/09/2013 7:01:20 PM PST by frogjerk (Obama Claus is coming to town!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

It is more than a right, it is a duty.


4 posted on 01/09/2013 7:02:57 PM PST by frogjerk (Obama Claus is coming to town!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

both writers sound a bit amateurish.

they also dismiss the basic question easily.

let them have their own state, like california, where they can go nuts with any un-Constitutional idea they want. They only law is that none of them can leave that place.


5 posted on 01/09/2013 7:02:57 PM PST by AlmaKing
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Rebellion?

Against the U.S. Constitution? NO Way.

Against the abuse of limited powers under the Constitution by elected officials? Hell Yes.


6 posted on 01/09/2013 7:03:43 PM PST by Texas Fossil
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

TJ (God bless him) always believed that the citizenry should be able to hold off the Soldiery.

It wasn’t about insurrection it was about citizens being able to stand against a corrupt government.

The people should have stood against FDR — now we MUST stand against bho.


7 posted on 01/09/2013 7:04:48 PM PST by freedumb2003 (MOLON LABE)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The Founding Fathers were Insurrectionists.

There’s that one (in)famous Jefferson quote about the Tree of Liberty...

...which is getting mighty thirsty.


8 posted on 01/09/2013 7:09:16 PM PST by ExGeeEye (I'll give y'all 90 days for the wounds to heal; then we start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
The 2nd Amendment was placed in the Constitution to give the citizens the ability to rebel against a tyrannical government.
9 posted on 01/09/2013 7:22:33 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (Pr 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation:but sin is a reproach to any people)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

To the headline: hell yes!!!


10 posted on 01/09/2013 7:25:06 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”


11 posted on 01/09/2013 7:28:25 PM PST by Flag_This (Real presidents don't bow.)
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To: AlmaKing

let the west coast and the north east and Il go on their socialist merry way so long as they take their illegals, feces lovers and loons from the left with them.

I for one will not lose wink of sleep but thye better not be coming down here ever once their new country fails


12 posted on 01/09/2013 7:28:41 PM PST by manc (Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
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To: freedumb2003
The people should have stood against FDR

Amen, amen, amen. We're still suffering because the people didn't stop that fascist swine from over running the Constitution.

13 posted on 01/09/2013 7:29:31 PM PST by Hardastarboard (Bringing children to America without immigration documents is child abuse. Let's end it.)
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To: fortheDeclaration

evil exists when good men do nothing.

They have the media for sure but to hell with them.


14 posted on 01/09/2013 7:29:52 PM PST by manc (Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Nixon got in trouble when he hinted that if the President does something, it makes it legal, and he was wrong. What happens when those in power act treasonously, and their treasonous AG won’t ‘protect and defend’ the Constitution? We have turned things upside down: Those in power are are the treasonous ones and those who turn against them, or are even critical of them, are considered treasonous for not going along. Whew!


15 posted on 01/09/2013 7:37:24 PM PST by SERKIT ("Blazing Saddles" explains it all.......)
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To: manc

>>evil exists when good men do nothing.<<

Please do not take this clarification personally, FRiend. Evil exists, no matter what we do. The 2008 and 2012 elections are hard and sad proof of that.

Evil THRIVES when good men do nothing. Once evil has the high ground, good men must work harder to keep it contained.


16 posted on 01/09/2013 7:39:16 PM PST by freedumb2003 (MOLON LABE)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Of course you have the right of rebellion and the tools as well. The right comes from God and the tools are in your gun safe.

Some insectoid legal drones argue that magically the right to rebellion (resistance to tyranny is obedience to God) was emasculated by the Constitution. Its structure provides for exclusively non violent civil actions like voting, appeals to the court, the legislature or the executive to come to the people’s aid depending on who was doing the oppression.

But there is an escalation embodied in that very varied framework of checks and balances.....

Soap Box
Ballot Box
Jury Box

are the constitutional means, BUT

The soap box may one day be silenced or subverted to wokr for the powers not the people(can you say NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, NPR)

The ballot box can be stuffed, over run by illegal votes or even illegal voters....corrupted to a lynch mob democracy as where 3 wolves vote to have the sheep for dinner. Democracy, what we are NOT...but the way we are being run.

The jury box can be emasculated by judges ordering the jury to judge only the facts and not the law....as we remember many an English/American revolutionary tussel was started when juries kept turning loose “guilty under the law but not before God” defendants.

& OMG......cartridge box...only effective if the people have arms in sufficient quantity and or sufficient quality to enable a sizable portion of them to set things right.

Our rights are simple and natural. Life. Liberty. Property or just pursing happiness as you see it. Rebellion is a derivative right to protect and recover the fundamental rights whenever they are abridged and all other recourse exhausted or perverted.

Tommy Jefferson summarized 1,000 years of hard won liberties wrestled back from the craven claws of monarchy over 1,000 years very well. He both assets it aggressively, while depicting it’s natural moderation to not be used lightly.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, —That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

Who can even ask with a straight face if we retain the right of rebellion when all other avenues are exhausted.

Of course we do. Of Course we do. The greatest minds of Western man....and the Lord God himself say so.

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s.....but that does not include life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness as you see it. Else, Satan need only subvert the government of weak men....and win the world.

FORBID IT ALMIGHTY GOD! Patrick Henry.....you gotta love that man, too.


17 posted on 01/09/2013 7:49:15 PM PST by Lowell1775
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I think our fathers answer this question:

“Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in our possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?”
— Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot Debates 168-169.

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.”
— Patrick Henry, Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution 1788

“... but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights ...”
— Alexander Hamilton

“The people the people are the rightful masters of both congresses, and courts not to overthrow the constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it.”
— Abraham Lincoln

“When the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually.”. . . I ask, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.”
— George Mason - Virginia’s U.S. Constitution
ratification convention, 1788

“Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power.”
— Noah Webster of Pennsylvania An Examination
of The Leading Principles of the Federal
Constitution, Philadelphia, 1787

“...what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.”
— Thomas Jefferson to William Smith, Paris
11/13/1787


18 posted on 01/09/2013 7:54:33 PM PST by veracious
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To: manc

I have been thinking the same.


19 posted on 01/09/2013 8:18:12 PM PST by jospehm20
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To: manc

All libtards on one side of the fence and the rest of us on the other or it’s civil war. I won’t live in Obama’s f’d up world!


20 posted on 01/09/2013 8:23:10 PM PST by Route395
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To: freedumb2003

Unconstitutional laws have been with us since at least John Adams’ administration. How many people went to war over the Sedition Act?


21 posted on 01/09/2013 8:40:28 PM PST by Sarabaracuda (Keep guns out of the hands of lunatics or the government will keep guns out of your hands.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Why would the Founding Fathers distance themselves from the events of April 18-19, 1775? Answer, they wouldn’t.


22 posted on 01/09/2013 9:13:02 PM PST by NonValueAdded (If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, you've likely misread the situation.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

DEPOPULATE socialists/totallitarians from the body politic. DEFUND their collectives, foreign and domestic.

These "discussions" go away, the debt goes away...and...we...

live - free - republic

23 posted on 01/09/2013 9:36:59 PM PST by PGalt
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

C’mon 2014

(Prepare. Persevere.)


24 posted on 01/09/2013 9:38:32 PM PST by PGalt
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/officials-10-woodland-hills-students-5-adults-invo/nTrGg/


25 posted on 01/09/2013 10:08:37 PM PST by patriot08 (NATIVE TEXAN (girl type))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
"Does Second Amendment guarantee right of rebellion?"

70 million people with guns can have it guarantee any damn thing we want it to.

26 posted on 01/10/2013 12:36:54 AM PST by precisionshootist
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Armed rebellion, against an oppresive ‘government”) is not a right - it’s a duty. The right to bear arms is merely a facilitator to make the duty possible.


27 posted on 01/10/2013 3:36:11 AM PST by trebb (Allies no longer trust us. Enemies no longer fear us.)
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To: PGalt
DEPOPULATE socialists/totallitarians from the body politic. DEFUND their collectives, foreign and domestic.
I think the last two elections indicate that is not likely to happen any time soon. Conservatives are outnumbered by moderates within the GOP. The GOP is outnumbered by the societal leeches in the Dem party who always vote with their hand held out.

Fix those two issues and then we might stand a chance at depopulating the socialists/totallitarians from the body politic. We'll be lucky if the whole house of cards doesn't come tumbling down before sanity is restored...

28 posted on 01/10/2013 6:04:37 AM PST by jaydee770
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To: Sarabaracuda
Unconstitutional laws have been with us since at least John Adams’ administration. How many people went to war over the Sedition Act?

An entire slue of unconstitutional acts were passed since the Republic was formed, and that government expansion and meddling eventually became so intolerable that many people DID go to war in 1861.

I agree with many of the posters here that the government is one more ill conceived unconstitutional law or EO away from pushing America over that tipping point again.

29 posted on 01/10/2013 6:18:30 AM PST by Sirius Lee (All that is required for evil to advance is for government to do "something")
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To: jaydee770; All

“We’ll be lucky if the whole house of cards doesn’t come tumbling down before sanity is restored...”

The socialists have built this house of cards. If/when it collapses at the time of their choosing or we are insufficiently subdued and a spark starts CWII, then we have a template to rebuild it....

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

It’s easy to form a more perfect union than the present one...

DEPOPULATE socialists/totallitarians from the body politic. DEFUND their collectives, foreign and domestic.

“Socailism is Legal Plunder” “Above all, if you wish to be strong, begin by rooting out every particle of socialism that may have crept into your legislation.” - Bastiat

—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


30 posted on 01/11/2013 2:39:53 AM PST by PGalt
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