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Oxford Union Rape Case Shows That Consent Is Never Black and White
The Telegraph ^ | 30 Jun 2014 | Claire Cohen

Posted on 06/30/2014 9:05:18 PM PDT by nickcarraway

The sorry tale of Ben Sullivan only serves to show how complex the issues surrounding rape allegations have become, writes Claire Cohen

Last week, the 21-year-old president of the Oxford Union was cleared of all charges against him – having been accused of the rape, and attempted rape, of two students last year.

Now, leaked documents appear to show one of the women admitting online that their encounter was ‘consensual’, almost a year before Sullivan’s arrest.

It’s tempting to see these leaked documents as containing a tacit admission of consent. But that would be an over-simplification.

Yes, the woman seems to agree with Sullivan that sexual intercourse took place. But that isn’t the same as consent. Nothing about it is black and white.

As a general proposition it’s vital to remember that rape doesn’t always look like rape. Sometimes, what looks like consensual sex can be rape. And even if you’ve had a consensual relationship with someone in the past, it doesn’t mean it can’t be rape either.

More than one in five women is raped by their husband, or partner. This should dispel the myth that rape involves being dragged down a dark alleyway at knifepoint. Such cases do, of course, occur but don’t constitute the majority of trials. Most rapes happen in the home - often between two people who, on the surface, might appear consenting and agree that intercourse did take place. The issue is one of consent and there is nothing ambiguous about a woman’s rights to give or not give her consent at any time. Where ambiguity may arise is whether on particular facts, sex was consensual or not. The principle is clear, the difficulty emerges in application.

There are multiple shades of grey; some not even apparent to the accuser.

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: rape; raperape
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1 posted on 06/30/2014 9:05:18 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
More than one in five women is raped by their husband, or partner.

B.S.

2 posted on 06/30/2014 9:06:34 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Conservatism is the political disposition of grown-ups.)
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To: nickcarraway

Oh for pete’s sake. Never in my life (and I am no spring chicken) have I been in the position (ahem) where I wasn’t entirely sure if I was consenting. This girl is too dumb to have sex. Toss her in a convent and be done with her.


3 posted on 06/30/2014 9:10:23 PM PDT by A_perfect_lady
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To: nickcarraway
There are multiple shades of grey; some not even apparent to the accuser.

You mean like if a black teenager on drugs is pounding the head of a white guy on the pavement and telling him that he's going to kill him, there are multiple shades of grey that are not even apparent to the accuser, and therefore no self-defense should be used because the only way to be sure that murder was actually taking place is by... being killed?

Unless, of course, it's a woman, in which case the way you felt as you drove by on the freeway when you looked at a "male" justifies you calling in a SWAT team to fire a missile at him from a drone and enable you to feel "safe"?

Those kind of grey areas, b@tch?

4 posted on 06/30/2014 9:11:39 PM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: nickcarraway

Paging whoopi; is it rape or rape-rape?


5 posted on 06/30/2014 9:11:59 PM PDT by Michael.SF. (I never thought anyone could make Jimmy Carter look good in comparisons)
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To: Talisker

Snicker snicker


6 posted on 06/30/2014 9:13:20 PM PDT by Ray76 (True change requires true change - A Second Party ...or else it's more of the same...)
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To: Jeff Chandler

More than one in five women is raped by their husband, or partner.


That stat always cracks me up. How can a husband rape his wife? Her body is not her own, but her husband’s also.

Rape is, by definition, non-consensual. But she gave consent when she made her vows. And it should be mutual.

I speak as a man who’s wife refused sex for 14 months before she divorced me. In counseling she accused me of sexual abuse (a preposterous claim but not germane here) and the counselor said, “you know, withholding sex is also a form of sexual abuse.”

She refused to go any more.

Meanwhile, my second wife and I just celebrated our 16th anniversary and the honeymoon never ended. It became a new life of marital bliss that I honestly thought was only real in chick films and fiction.


7 posted on 06/30/2014 9:14:52 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf

Too much information.


8 posted on 06/30/2014 9:16:03 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Conservatism is the political disposition of grown-ups.)
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To: nickcarraway

I think what a lot of this gray-area stuff comes down to is “misgivings” after the fact.


9 posted on 06/30/2014 9:19:47 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Jeff Chandler; cuban leaf
Maybe too much information, but nevertheless courageous of cuban leaf to outline the specifics. He is quite right that consent is given when marital vows are exchanged and would need to be revoked with divorce if said consent is to be revoked.

That being said, no spouse will force the other unreasonably or violently if the bonds of marital trust are to be maintained. Likewise, no spouse will unreasonably withhold from the other for the same reason.

10 posted on 06/30/2014 9:22:37 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: nickcarraway
Oxford Union Rape Case Shows That Consent Is Never Black and White

Actually it is.

Did you agree to go to bed together or did you protest and try to get away?

In the first case there was consent. In the second there was not.

I have noticed that liberals have a pathological desire to make things that are simple and clear complicated and messy.

11 posted on 06/30/2014 9:23:26 PM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (Proud Infidel, Gun Nut, Religious Fanatic and Freedom Fiend)
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To: Jeff Chandler

Too much information.


Yeah. I always feel the need to back up my “you can’t rape your wife” comments because a few people come unglued sometimes when they read it.

By unglued, I mean in the same vein as the comments from liberals about the hobby lobby decision. ;-)


12 posted on 06/30/2014 9:23:28 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf

You said ... “That stat always cracks me up. How can a husband rape his wife?”

You may not be aware of it, but there is law out there saying that this can be done and men have been convicted in a court of law. It’s a definite fact.


13 posted on 06/30/2014 9:23:47 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Vigilanteman

That being said, no spouse will force the other unreasonably or violently if the bonds of marital trust are to be maintained. Likewise, no spouse will unreasonably withhold from the other for the same reason.


Therein lies the key. Thank you.


14 posted on 06/30/2014 9:25:35 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf

“That stat always cracks me up. How can a husband rape his wife? Her body is not her own, but her husband’s also.”

Great to meet a fellow knuckle dragger.

I experienced the same wonderful marital bliss that you speak of until I cut up the credit cards. I often wonder if there was a connection.


15 posted on 06/30/2014 9:25:45 PM PDT by Foundahardheadedwoman (God don't have a statute of limitations)
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To: Star Traveler

You may not be aware of it, but there is law out there saying that this can be done and men have been convicted in a court of law. It’s a definite fact.


Yes. I know that. I’m talking about my own sensibilities vs the law of this land. Remember, the law of this land says the obamacare penalty is a tax. :-D


16 posted on 06/30/2014 9:26:43 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: Jeff Chandler

Consent today, regret tomorrow.


17 posted on 06/30/2014 9:27:06 PM PDT by drunknsage
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To: Foundahardheadedwoman

Probably. It’s a subtle narcissism.


18 posted on 06/30/2014 9:30:08 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf

Just to make it clear so nobody gets the wrong idea here ...

— — —

Marital rape, also known as spousal rape, is non-consensual sex in which the perpetrator is the victim’s spouse. It is a form of partner rape, of domestic violence, and of sexual abuse. Marital rape is today illegal in all 50 US states.

The legal history of marital rape laws in the United States is a long and complex one, that spans over several decades. The criminalization of marital rape in the United States started in the mid-1970s and by 1993 marital rape became a crime in all 50 states, under at least one section of the sexual offense codes. At that time, most states differentiated between the way marital rape and non-marital rape were treated. The laws have continued to change and evolve since 1993, but in some states, there still remain differences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_(United_States_law)


19 posted on 06/30/2014 9:30:33 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Foundahardheadedwoman

Great to meet a fellow knuckle dragger.


Yep. I’m old fashioned, and proud of it.

When I want to get in touch with my feminine side, I reach for my wife. And she reciprocates.


20 posted on 06/30/2014 9:31:45 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: nickcarraway

Written consent forms.


21 posted on 06/30/2014 9:33:24 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: Vigilanteman

You said ... “He is quite right that consent is given when marital vows are exchanged and would need to be revoked with divorce if said consent is to be revoked.”

That not correct for 50 states and the law in each of those 50 states. You shouldn’t be giving people the wrong information on the law regarding this subject.


22 posted on 06/30/2014 9:34:04 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

Yeah. It’s the law of the land. So was slavery. So was prohibition.

You don’t understand that the US government has lost all credibility regarding laws. They are no longer to be taken seriously, unless they have you in their sites. My own sensibilities keep me out of trouble - e.g. marrying a woman who actually wants to make me happy and has the same sexual appetite I do. And she married a man who wants to make her happy. It works out really well and we don’t need laws.

The less virtuous a people, the greater their need for laws. We don’t worry about laws much around these parts, for that reason and the fact that we are all pretty well armed.


23 posted on 06/30/2014 9:34:25 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: Star Traveler

You are right. Forced sex is rape, period. Doesn’t matter what was said in the past.

But by the same token, consent is consent, period. Doesn’t matter what second thoughts might occur afterwards.

The writer of this article seems to be implying that consent can be retroactively withdrawn. And that’s the kind of thinking that makes perfect sense to the liberal mind. Just like “she’s my wife so I can f* her when I want” makes perfect sense to a neanderthal.


24 posted on 06/30/2014 9:36:00 PM PDT by samtheman
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To: Star Traveler

The legal history of marital rape laws in the United States is a long and complex one, that spans over several decades.


That’s not very long. I graduated from high school before that history began.

The enemy of progressives is old people that actually remember what it used to be like. Way back in high school, every time I heard someone complaining about this or that proposed law and saying “people will never stand for that!” I would counter, “What you mean is that THIS GENERATION will never stand for that.”

I may not have been right about a lot of things, but I nailed that one.


25 posted on 06/30/2014 9:38:18 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf

My wife’s ex husband beat and raped her while they were still married. She had told him that it was over and he beat the crap out of her and raped her by force.
My wife and I have almost hit 22 years married and have the rest of our lives together. He has continued to beat the women in his life. She is not a liberal idiot or a man hater. What happened was not her fault. Your post is ignorant.


26 posted on 06/30/2014 9:39:06 PM PDT by ExpatGator (I hate Illinois Nazis!)
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To: cuban leaf

This is not the US Government. This is “each state individually” for the citizens of their own state. So it’s 50 different states, with 50 different legislatures, at different time periods for each state, with each state having its own voting public for voting in their own legislators - and they ALL come up with the same type of laws regarding this kind of rape.

Now, you may not like the laws that each of those 50 different states enacted, each in their own jurisdictions, but they are laws that are followed, or one gets arrested, tried, convicted and jailed - no matter your view on all those different laws.


27 posted on 06/30/2014 9:41:50 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: ExpatGator

What you are talking about is battery with a rape aspect. When I comment about rape between a husband and a wife, I’m actually being a little tongue in cheek. My point is that they both gave consent when they said their vows and, at least to Christians, married people no longer control their own body. It is quite literally their spouses as well.

From my perspective, there is no difference between a man having sex with is wife when he knows she doesn’t want to and a woman refusing to have sex with her husband when she knows he wants to - public exhibitionism notwithstanding, of course (unless they are both all for it).

Once it gets into actual violence, we are talking about something else. I.e. my statement has a caveat.


28 posted on 06/30/2014 9:43:30 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf

Today is not the past - and those laws exist today.


29 posted on 06/30/2014 9:45:07 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

You are right. I erred in saying it was the FedGov, but I couldn’t edit.

Just to be clear: Many people here keep saying what the law is. My take, which I started articulating in 1981 is, “What is legal is not necessarily moral, and what is moral is not necessarily legal.”

i.e. whether or not it’s legal is not what I’m addressing. The law is the law, crazy, sane, or other. It is black and white. We hope.


30 posted on 06/30/2014 9:46:07 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: nickcarraway


31 posted on 06/30/2014 9:52:57 PM PDT by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -vvv- NO Pity for the LAZY - 86-44)
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To: cuban leaf

You can talk and discuss all you want about what is moral for people (and what is not) and nothing much is going to happen to you.

But if you don’t know what is illegal - you’re going to face penalties in the law ranging from fines to jail time. And you certainly better know without a doubt what, in the law, can land you in jail.

Illegalities resulting in jail time are not subjects you just pass the time of day idly discussing. They are serious things that people need to be absolutely clear about.


32 posted on 06/30/2014 9:55:29 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: cuban leaf

A rape aspect!? I hope you never find yourself in jail and get battered by your cellie “with a rape aspect” On second thought, maybe that would not be real rape rape, just rape as that snapperhead on MSNBC called it.


33 posted on 06/30/2014 10:16:41 PM PDT by ExpatGator (I hate Illinois Nazis!)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: nickcarraway

There needs to be a sex consent ap. You’d load it onto your phone and video record the consent. The two parties will negotiate in advance on what positions and whether any oral contact will take place. Then, both parties press their thumbprint onto the phone. Then the only argument will be that she agreed to 18.5 minutes and he only lasted. .5 minutes. (Lawsuit!)


35 posted on 07/01/2014 3:29:27 AM PDT by Gen.Blather
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To: A_perfect_lady
Toss her in a convent and be done with her.

Oh, that's mean. I know a number of women who live or have lived in convents, and having a few of those thrown in would be AWFUL for them.
36 posted on 07/01/2014 3:30:57 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana ("If you're litigating against nuns, you've probably done something wrong."-Ted Cruz)
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To: cuban leaf
Yeah. I always feel the need to back up my “you can’t rape your wife” comments because a few people come unglued sometimes when they read it.

You are absolutely right. Black's Law Dictionary, fifth edition: "A male who has sexual intercourse with a female not his wife is guilty of rape if: . . . "

Consent is given in marriage. Very black and white. It's why you have witnesses.
Now, since my edition was published, (late '80s) the law has certainly changed in many jurisdictions, but that is only due to a willingness to ignore or violently change the meaning of words. There are plenty of other crimes that an abusive (including sexually abusive) husband can be charged with. Rape just isn't one of them. There are other crimes that a man who is abusive to his wife can be charged with.
37 posted on 07/01/2014 3:38:59 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana ("If you're litigating against nuns, you've probably done something wrong."-Ted Cruz)
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To: ExpatGator
I hope you never find yourself in jail and get battered by your cellie “with a rape aspect”

Forced sodomization would be a more accurate term, and is just as, if not more offensive.
38 posted on 07/01/2014 3:43:31 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana ("If you're litigating against nuns, you've probably done something wrong."-Ted Cruz)
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To: Star Traveler
Today is not the past - and those laws exist today.

I hope you don't accept anybody to acknowledge that there is such a thing as men marrying men or women marrying women just because the legal authority in some states and countries say it is possible.
39 posted on 07/01/2014 3:47:03 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana ("If you're litigating against nuns, you've probably done something wrong."-Ted Cruz)
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To: Star Traveler
Read the summary. Even under these statues clear distinctions are made and very different penalties apply, much to the chagrin of Feminazis who are really the people trivializing rape, not the purveyors of common sense who dare to point out the difference.

I seriously doubt that there isn't a married couple out there who hasn't had a conversation something like the following:

  1. Honey, I really need it tonight or I can't get to sleep. No you don't, get a cup of hot tea and sleep on the couch! How about if I take you out to dinner tomorrow night? How about waiting until morning?
  2. Honey, how about I give you a nice back-rub? How about not? I know what you're really after. No, this time I promise, just a back rub. Okay, but just the back rub! Back rub progresses to the point where the underwear is in the way, she consents to have them removed (sometimes verbally, more often by just letting nature take its course) and, before she gives her explicit consent, it has progressed to full blown intercourse. She may even verbally say no up until that magical moment where two flesh become one.

There are hundreds of variations on the above two scenes with various and sundry outcomes, but you get the idea. I would no more consider invoking violence to get it that my Mrs. would consider invoking spousal rape laws. We respect and love each other too much for that.

But is deception, bribery, etc. and the like involved? Yeah, I suppose you can argue that, but common sense understands the difference in these encounters even if the law does not.

40 posted on 07/01/2014 3:49:48 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Dr. Sivana

If you see 50 states with 50 different legislatures okaying it, I’ll guarantee you there’s not much you’re going to be able to do about it ... :-) ...


41 posted on 07/01/2014 3:59:21 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: nickcarraway


Morse: Lewis, Lewis, Lewis! You never fail to amaze me! Of course she gave her bloody consent, and damn well enjoyed it! But nothing is ever as simple as that, Lewis, not in Oxford it isn't. Suppose for example that her grandmother was being held hostage by the Stasi and her uncle, the lecturer at Christ College in medieval Minnesang was taking money from an American drug company to falsify reports of a weight loss drug that was using British subjects as guinea pigs. Lewis, it's all so simple really! Don't you see it, Lewis?

Lewis: Think I'll need a pint to figure that out, Guv.

42 posted on 07/01/2014 3:59:52 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (This is known as "bad luck". - Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Star Traveler
If you see 50 states with 50 different legislatures okaying it, I’ll guarantee you there’s not much you’re going to be able to do about it ... :-) ...

I don't have to acknowledge it as standard English. Heck, I still don't use the word "gender" as a replacement for the word "sex" ("gender" is a jocularity or blunder except when used to refer to language constructs [e.g. "la" vs. "le" in French] per Fowler).

If the rest of the country adopts Newspeak as its legal language, I will cling to standard English for my personal discourse.

The fight for language is never over. I concede that the laws have changed nationwide.
43 posted on 07/01/2014 4:14:44 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana ("If you're litigating against nuns, you've probably done something wrong."-Ted Cruz)
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To: Star Traveler

But we are no longer a land of laws. That’s the thing. And regarding this particular issue, I’m not at risk. Regarding law in general. It’s why I moved here. I actually notice people driving around with people sitting in the beds of their pickups. In some very real and positive ways, I’ve returned to 1950’s USA. I love it!


44 posted on 07/01/2014 4:48:55 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: ExpatGator

Thing is, when those guys used phrases like “rape rape” and “legitimate rape”, though their wording was terrible, I knew the point they were trying to make.

I also think the penalty for DUI with a .08 should be like a low level speeding ticket while .2 has a bit stiffer fine, if you get my drift.


45 posted on 07/01/2014 4:50:34 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: Dr. Sivana

There are plenty of other crimes that an abusive (including sexually abusive) husband can be charged with. Rape just isn’t one of them. There are other crimes that a man who is abusive to his wife can be charged with.


Yep. You are getting to the core issues there. Words have meaning.

And for all those that say “it’s the law”, need I remind you of Obamacare, legal abortion and homosexual marriage?


46 posted on 07/01/2014 4:52:35 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf

We’re a land with a lot of jails in it and people still go to jail ... LOL ...


47 posted on 07/01/2014 4:53:39 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: nickcarraway
The issue is one of consent and there is nothing ambiguous about a woman’s rights to give or not give her consent at any time. Where ambiguity may arise is whether on particular facts, sex was consensual or not.

Let's contradict ourselves within two sequential sentences.

48 posted on 07/01/2014 5:45:53 AM PDT by WayneS (Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.)
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To: nickcarraway

The actual story seems to be about two women who want it both ways - they consented (factually), they acted, and now they either regret it or see a cash opportunity.

Clearly two women any moderately intelligent man would avoid like the plague they are.

The article was written by an idiot. Sorry babe, but women like you make men want to join the priesthood.


49 posted on 07/01/2014 7:29:58 AM PDT by jimt (Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed.)
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To: Star Traveler

Yet Cliven Bundy is still free. ;)


50 posted on 07/01/2014 8:43:56 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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