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Posted on 11/02/2002 9:11:20 AM PST by madfly

It began Wednesday morning, when I found myself totally obsessed with the Free State Project. This is the proposal to move a large number of right-thinking people to one state, and influence the politics of an entire state. Sure, I had heard about it before, but it lead to me spending most of the day trying to figure out why my mind had made such a mental shift and focus so suddenly. Then it dawned on me: Haitian Refugees.

Let me explain.

Before this comes back at me for some reason, I'd better first state that I do not speak for the Free State Project, I am giving my own opinion of the matter - and this whole mess. You'll see why I said that as you read this.

Back to the Boat People.

Last time I checked, we were at war. Part of that war means protection of our borders, among the most glaring issues this political season that few, if any, politicians on either side want to touch. For a review: People cross the border as if this nation doesn't really have one. Among them were a few Jihad freaks, they take a few flying lessons, steal a few planes, and conduct what historians may call one of the most successful military strikes in world history. Hence, on Sept. 12, 2001, issues such as immigration and border security became important, nonpartisan (priority) issues. Pretty good reason to rally around the ol' flag, huh?

Then I remembered Florida - from hanging chads to a paramilitary siege of Miami for one poor kid whose mother died just to get him away from Cuba. One would assume that while one man is working to protect the nation's borders, his brother would follow his lead, or at least remind him over dinner, "hey, we gotta lot of border to protect here, too". And no, I'm not picking on the Bush family.

And so, with all things these days being part of the "new normal" I, the common schlep, would assume 220 folks would not be able to simply dock their boat right off Hwy. 1 on Hobie Beach, then storm said beach asking for a ride to - who knows - the voter registration office?

The images are still vivid in my mind. 220 ILLEGAL TRESPASSERS (not 'migrants', not 'immigrants') jumping out of a stuffed boat, swimming to shore, and STOPPING traffic on a major artery in Southern Florida. If this alone doesn't bother you, imagine these 220 folks having AK-47's shooting on their way in. The way our wonderful new attitude toward 'homeland security' is down there, we could safely assume they'd have taken Ft. Lauderdale by now.

But here's what's worse: I decided to check to see if anyone just might be a little outraged about what happened. And yes, they were:

About 200 protesters, most of them Haitian Americans, gathered outside the Liberty City Learning Center where Jeb Bush had a previously scheduled campaign appearance on Wednesday. The group, divided into partisan camps, clashed over what should be done with the new refugees (read: illegal trespassers).

U.S. Rep Carrie Meek, D-Miami, called on the governor (Jeb) to lobby his brother (W) to issue an executive order to allow the new Haitians, as well as other migrants (read: illegal trespassers) who have been held at Krome for many months, to be released.

On the other side:

Bush partisans among the protesters blamed Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide and the island's political and economic turmoil for driving more than 200 Haitians to take an 8-day voyage aboard a rickety boat.

Meanwhile, a Haitian government official blamed an aid freeze by foreign donor countries (read: U.S. welfare payments) for causing the poverty in his country that led more than 200 migrants to travel in an overcrowded freighter to the United States.

Miami Herald - 10.30.02

Okay, call me crazy, but the last time I checked, we had troops in Haiti to deal with whatever the problem is there, including installing our own little 'puppet' (Aristide) to run this place. Here's a few more recent ILLEGAL ENCROACHMENTS:

. In May 1998, about 150 Haitians hidden aboard a wooden freighter jumped ship at a Miami River pier in broad daylight, diving into the water, hopping into waiting cars or taking off on foot. About 75 Haitians, including women and children, were detained.

. On New Year's Day 2000, a wooden boat treacherously overloaded with 406 Haitian, Dominican and Chinese trespassers were intercepted about eight miles off Key Biscayne.

. On Dec. 3, 2001, in a rare move, the U.S. Coast Guard brought to shore 185 Haitian trespassers, including 14 children. They were found just south of Elliott Key in a dangerously overcrowded 31-foot sailboat that also was in danger of capsizing.


But of course, this is our fault that these folks are coming here, right?

Answer: Correct - it is our fault, and here's why:

(Just my humble opinion) When a county KNOWS people meaning to do harm are attempting to cross a sovereign border illegally, the correct approach to take is:

1. Have the Coast Guard notify the captain of the boat that they are approaching sovereign waters, and they must halt to be
boarded or turn their vessel around immediately - outside the boundary (in this case - 12 miles from the coastline)

2. If the vessel continues to approach, have one missile (fired by either ship or air) detonate about 50 yards in front of said vessel
with the words "last warning" to follow.

3. If vessel persists, aim for the midsection of said vessel with similar missile, document results.

4. Send copies of documented results to local media and shipping docks in country where vessel is registered.

Sound harsh? Illegal attempts to dock on U.S. soil would stop in short order. But alas, none of this happened - for a nation at war.

So I woke up Wednesday morning, expecting to see the President announcing which Coast Guard officials were FIRED for allowing a boat to dock that close to a major metropolitan area. But no, let's hold them, feed them, protest about them, then interview them to see if they're being politically persecuted (in a country that we run), to see if they are worthy of staying - and maybe get flying lessons (after all, this is Florida) - or maybe just vanishing...

Stupid Question: If they ARE subject to political persecution in a country that we run, would it not be safe to assume that they just 'may' be upset with US?

Let me get to the point. We don't HAVE any homeland security, and our national security as a whole - sucks. While every other country seeks to protect their history, we seemed to be hell bent on forgetting who we are. We refuse to deal with a clear and present danger in favor of racially profiling white people when looking for a jihad sniper. We willfully send our manufacturing overseas, while doing everything in our power to kill our natural resource industry. We send federal agents into libraries to interrogate librarians about certain books - and the people who read them. We are losing the support and cooperation of more friendly nations each day, and, while those from every third world country try to encroach upon unprotected borders, good people are doing everything they can just to get away from all this madness.

And frankly, I'd like to join them.

Since a good portion of "we Americans" learned a hard lesson from the attempt to formally leave the union about 137 years ago, the best thing right-minded Americans can hope to do is work to form their own community elsewhere - somewhere. With all the flag waving, too few people see the obvious: This nation is sick, if not dying altogether. And I don't see any amount of patriotism, or voting democrat or republican solving this problem. I wish I could think more positively about it, but I can't. I see the fall of Modern Rome happening faster than the destruction of Social Security - about the only thing politicians seems interested in protecting. This nation - this place - has become a corporation whose only purpose is to keeping the ruling parties in power.

Sorry - just calling it as I see it.

Honestly, it has become increasing difficult to write about anything going on in this country anymore. What sense is there in talking about what's wrong when it will probably only get worse. Just when it seems things couldn't get worse, they devolve to a new epitome in less than a week. Even saying, "To heck with it, I'm leaving", can't stop the Internal Revenue Service from stealing nearly everything, even if you die.


Maybe I'm just depressed. Maybe I'm tired of the complete futility of holding up this broken down system known as the United States of America. I know this: I want to go far away - check that - I want to go HOME. I want to be free. I want to live each day not having to look over my shoulder, wondering what Washington is going to throw at me next. It would be nice - it would be so nice, to have my personal liberty protected by another entity. Perhaps a state; where medical records remain private, where I can keep what I earn, defend myself against a threat - a STATE where I can live FREE.

Am I asking for too much?

Please do not accuse me of being an America hater, or unpatriotic. There are great things, and great people here. But most of these same great people all know what I know. Watching the media each day is merely more evidence that there we have some screws loose somewhere. And it is beyond time for the Real Americans of this nation to regroup (or in this case - group) ourselves together in a last ditch effort to rebuild a more perfect union.

TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: banglist; fsp; porcupines
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To: archy
The big question, of course, is in which state to begin?.

You don't like my idea?

It'll require a governor and legislature willing to stand up to federal blackmail and extortion, and both voter blocs and an armed populace willing to resist attempts to flood the area with illegal voters, probably foreign.

If that's a REQUIREMENT, then it will never happen. Don't underestimate yourself, or the power of an effective bloc. So, isn't one out of three enough? If you want conservatives who can stand up to anything, come to California! We're tough. Just ask Carl Rove and Gray Davis. For every FReeper who moves here there'll be three Slave Party weenies who'll hightail it.

Think of the change in cash flow! :-P

41 posted on 11/02/2002 3:21:39 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Taxman; Bigun; Eagle9; freedox; IronJack; diotima; Bob J; The Game Hen; PistolPaknMama; Memother; ..
This is an excellent article.
42 posted on 11/02/2002 3:29:36 PM PST by dixie sass
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To: madfly
Another article from JJ . Good stuff as always .
43 posted on 11/02/2002 3:58:43 PM PST by Ben Bolt
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To: blackie
I especially liked your suggestion to fire Democrats. One is still allowed to fire someone due to their radical political beliefs.
44 posted on 11/02/2002 4:09:51 PM PST by Dec31,1999
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To: madfly
Bump for later read.
45 posted on 11/02/2002 4:39:08 PM PST by jokar
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To: Carry_Okie; gcruse; Landru; archy
They actually have a working plan. As far as population, it would have to under 1.5 million. They looked at many other factors such as amount spent on political campaigns, freedom orientated populace and other variables.

At first I thought this was a pipe dream, but the more I look at it and the further it progresses, the more it seems not only workable, but a good idea.

This is not succession by any means, and they're not looking for separatists or violent types in any way. This is a legal and viable idea.

46 posted on 11/02/2002 5:23:06 PM PST by AAABEST
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It's damned attractive.
47 posted on 11/02/2002 5:24:17 PM PST by gcruse
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It is surprising that the Free State Project has not generated more interest and support here at FR. The last thread mentioning it degenerated rapidly into a discussion of Somalia and of course the ubiquitous "libertarians are druggies" posts.
I had come to accept as accomplished fact that liberty was in its death throws and no chance existed for its revival in my lifetime but the FSP has given me some hope. The concept is sound and the project is doable. A dedicated minority can change the world, look at how the major religions got started not to mention political movements like socialism and communism. All we need to do is take one tiny state, one already with the proper leanings at that. I've been talking about this to friends and family about this and they all seem interested.
48 posted on 11/02/2002 5:28:38 PM PST by u-89
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You already know my answer............but I'll say it !

I'm in !!

Stay Safe !

49 posted on 11/02/2002 5:28:43 PM PST by Squantos
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To: u-89
I've been talking about this to friends and family about this and they all seem interested.

Nearly everyone I've talked to about it seems interested, including my wife, mom and many others. I won't make a commitment until I'm sure I can do it. The more I think and talk and read about it the more it seems very realistic, workable and desirable.

I'm going to work towards it in a very real way.

50 posted on 11/02/2002 5:59:43 PM PST by AAABEST
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i have already signed up for the FSP and look forward to the selection of the promised land... Delaware looks like a possibility... i hope we can sway the whole delmarva peninsula...
51 posted on 11/02/2002 6:04:43 PM PST by teeman8r
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To: teeman8r
I have been a supporter of this project since I heard of it but as yet have not signed on as a member. Wanted to be sure I could make the move in deed and not just word before I made a commitment however the desire to be free of the nanny state will propell me faster than finacial security so I am about ready to sign.

You stated a preference for Delaware, from their site the early polls show New Hampshire in the lead unofficially at this time. For me either is convenient and good for business but Idaho doesn't so sound bad to me. No matter where it is as long as it's free I'll be happy to call it home.

52 posted on 11/02/2002 6:28:06 PM PST by u-89
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To: blam
Terrorism: we're agreed.

Immigration: Definitely a suspension for a few years while the infrastructure is rebuilt, but immigration built this country and a thirty year moratorium would change us just as much for the worse in the other direction. We would become intolerant and inflexible. I think dropping immigration levels to a relatively slow pace - after the several year hiatus - that we can easily assimilate without risk of cultural anarchy (which we face today). There IS value in immigration, but an overdose will surely kill us. I believe in a one-strike policy. If you are ever caught trying to enter the country illegally, or in the country illegally, you NEVER get to come back. Not as an immigrant, not as a tourist, never. Caught a second time and you suffer additional penalties before being deported (such as a prison term).

Government Service: You must have seen some of my other posts. Two years (consider it 13th and 14th grade if you want). Everybody goes, no excuses, no exceptions, no deferments. If you aren't able to do military service (ability or disposition) then you do some kind of civil service. Many countries, including some that haven't been in a war since the 19th century, have a universal draft for military service. This is not an unfair price to pay for being a citizen of the best country on earth (ever).

Taxes: Four years, fine. But taxes cannot expire simultaneously with the President's term. It should be offset by six months or a year allowing ample time to debate it while clearly setting the tone for the midterm elections. As for the voting part, that simply isn't possible as there are too many people that legitimately don't pay taxes. Only those paying would get to have a say in how taxes are spent, and only in proportion to what they are paying. There would definitely have to be some discretionary funds - we can't all vote on every single dollar spent - which I initially set at 50%. But if you paid $10,000 in taxes and checked off 10 "Military Budget" boxes, then the government should have to allocate $5,000 to the military. All the over and under commitments should cancel out and the final (taxpayer allocated portion, anyway) budget should almost perfectly reflect the intent and attitude of the taxpaying public. If a politician wants to spend our money, he can damn well tell us why it is important. Then we decide if it really is. If you want to commit your tax dollars to foreign aid, fine, 'green' causes, fine, space program, fine - it is up to you. But I don't have to worry about some government sponsored boondoggle that I would never have spent a dime on, because I didn't. Bad ideas will simply wither away from lack of funding. Eventually I'd want to raise the nondiscretionary portion to as close to 100% as possible. And there will always be some people that can't be bothered to check off the boxes, anyway. Maybe even most of them. But, if you care, then you will always know where your money went.

Voting: I do believe, though, that there should be *rabidly* enforced general voting requirements. For example, no voting without mandatory proof-positive of your identity and citizenship, no same day registration, no early voting, extremely harsh penalties for fraud, total reform and national standardization of the absentee ballot systems (becomes a federal issue once you start voting across state lines), and so on. Voting is the fundamental process of our system - free and fair elections allowing us to decide for good or ill our own fate - and if we allow it to be corrupted, our whole system, every bit of it, is also corrupted. Every fraud in voting that occurs is a crime against everyone in that jurisdiction affected by that race (i.e. fraud in a Presidential election is a crime against every single American).
53 posted on 11/02/2002 9:07:48 PM PST by calenel
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To: calenel
Well, we're not to far apart. ..and no I don't recall having read any of your other posts. We'd have to work with the taxes issues some more.
54 posted on 11/02/2002 10:26:58 PM PST by blam
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"They actually have a working plan."

I don't doubt they do.

"As far as population, it would have to under 1.5 million. They looked at many other factors such as amount spent on political campaigns, freedom orientated populace and other variables."

Won't matter.
If the "FSP" worked, it'd be destroyed by the "powers-that-be" who're for a lack of better description, some absolutely evil, freedom-hating, power-hungry SOBs.

"At first I thought this was a pipe dream, but the more I look at it and the further it progresses, the more it seems not only workable, but a good idea."

I'd agree it's a fabulous idea; but, while it may not be a "pipe dream" it is nonetheless, a dream. -IMO-

"This is not succession by any means..."

But it wouldn't take long after that many like-minded people were thrown together, with a federal leviathon sure to usurp their will?
Succession would be precisely what would be attempted as an end result; make no mistake about that, either.
(I mean, there's another FSP thread started & the "constitutional scholars" -- both 'Pubbie & Libertarian -- have already gathered to commence their word games; the corruption of this idea has already begun, my friend. ~Already.)

"...and they're not looking for separatists or violent types in any way."

Oh yea?
If this ever were implimented -- in any existing state -- one wouldn't have long to wait before that's all there'd be.
That is: one wouldn't be there to begin with unless they were "seperatist" minded & once after they'd gone that far & the fed leviathon were to inevidably screw with 'em??
They may not have been violent upon arrival but would sure in the hell become violent, afterwards.

"This is a legal and viable idea."

But, "viable"?
Highly unlikely.

The idea's a wonderful thought though; make no mistake about it.
The evil bastards, I'm afraid, have taken such an attempt into account in their *plan* I gotta believe; and, I'm sure have some kind of contingency plan at the ready.
I'd bet you dollars to donuts the worms are wondering why no one's done something like this by now, already.

Now in my daydreams?
I envision taking back what was once ours to begin with; while, rounding-up the evil bastards responsible for having took it away?
To be summarily hung with a short piece of rope from the limb of a sour apple tree.

...that's what I've been dreaming about.

55 posted on 11/03/2002 1:41:52 AM PST by Landru
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To: Mudboy Slim
I see you were at the Yale thread, eh?

Check out this guy's article.
I thought it simply superb.

...maybe you will enjoy it, too.

56 posted on 11/03/2002 1:44:22 AM PST by Landru
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To: Landru
What'chu doin' up at this hour, Ol' Man?!

LOL and FReegards...MUD

57 posted on 11/03/2002 2:25:40 AM PST by Mudboy Slim
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To: Mudboy Slim
Didn't dawn on me all the leftover halloween chocolates I ate were loaded with caffiene.


So here I sit.

..."broken-hearted, tried to shit but only farted." :o)

58 posted on 11/03/2002 2:29:01 AM PST by Landru
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To: Landru
While I understand the frustration with the Status Quo that leads folks to believe secession or the FReeStateProect are the best we can hope for, I continue to maintain hope of retaking our Country as a whole!! To me, the FSP is a surrender to the Leftist forces that continue to assault this Nation, and I--for one--will not abandon the home my forefather's built in its time of greatest need!! In fact, I aim to do what I can to fix the damage and set us on a course to become that "Shining City on a Hill" that Ronaldus Maximus described so eloquently.


59 posted on 11/03/2002 2:31:49 AM PST by Mudboy Slim
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To: Landru
LOL...I worked outside so hard and so long yesterday that I dozed off at 8 PM and woke up at 4 AM all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed...what do you think of my new tune, "Liars!!"?!!


60 posted on 11/03/2002 2:35:29 AM PST by Mudboy Slim
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