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HAITIANS AND THE FREE STATE PROJECT
SierraTimes.com ^ | Nov. 1, 2002 | J.J. Johnson

Posted on 11/02/2002 9:11:20 AM PST by madfly

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To: AAABEST
i have already signed up for the FSP and look forward to the selection of the promised land... Delaware looks like a possibility... i hope we can sway the whole delmarva peninsula...
51 posted on 11/02/2002 6:04:43 PM PST by teeman8r
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To: teeman8r
I have been a supporter of this project since I heard of it but as yet have not signed on as a member. Wanted to be sure I could make the move in deed and not just word before I made a commitment however the desire to be free of the nanny state will propell me faster than finacial security so I am about ready to sign.

You stated a preference for Delaware, from their site the early polls show New Hampshire in the lead unofficially at this time. For me either is convenient and good for business but Idaho doesn't so sound bad to me. No matter where it is as long as it's free I'll be happy to call it home.

52 posted on 11/02/2002 6:28:06 PM PST by u-89
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To: blam
Terrorism: we're agreed.

Immigration: Definitely a suspension for a few years while the infrastructure is rebuilt, but immigration built this country and a thirty year moratorium would change us just as much for the worse in the other direction. We would become intolerant and inflexible. I think dropping immigration levels to a relatively slow pace - after the several year hiatus - that we can easily assimilate without risk of cultural anarchy (which we face today). There IS value in immigration, but an overdose will surely kill us. I believe in a one-strike policy. If you are ever caught trying to enter the country illegally, or in the country illegally, you NEVER get to come back. Not as an immigrant, not as a tourist, never. Caught a second time and you suffer additional penalties before being deported (such as a prison term).

Government Service: You must have seen some of my other posts. Two years (consider it 13th and 14th grade if you want). Everybody goes, no excuses, no exceptions, no deferments. If you aren't able to do military service (ability or disposition) then you do some kind of civil service. Many countries, including some that haven't been in a war since the 19th century, have a universal draft for military service. This is not an unfair price to pay for being a citizen of the best country on earth (ever).

Taxes: Four years, fine. But taxes cannot expire simultaneously with the President's term. It should be offset by six months or a year allowing ample time to debate it while clearly setting the tone for the midterm elections. As for the voting part, that simply isn't possible as there are too many people that legitimately don't pay taxes. Only those paying would get to have a say in how taxes are spent, and only in proportion to what they are paying. There would definitely have to be some discretionary funds - we can't all vote on every single dollar spent - which I initially set at 50%. But if you paid $10,000 in taxes and checked off 10 "Military Budget" boxes, then the government should have to allocate $5,000 to the military. All the over and under commitments should cancel out and the final (taxpayer allocated portion, anyway) budget should almost perfectly reflect the intent and attitude of the taxpaying public. If a politician wants to spend our money, he can damn well tell us why it is important. Then we decide if it really is. If you want to commit your tax dollars to foreign aid, fine, 'green' causes, fine, space program, fine - it is up to you. But I don't have to worry about some government sponsored boondoggle that I would never have spent a dime on, because I didn't. Bad ideas will simply wither away from lack of funding. Eventually I'd want to raise the nondiscretionary portion to as close to 100% as possible. And there will always be some people that can't be bothered to check off the boxes, anyway. Maybe even most of them. But, if you care, then you will always know where your money went.

Voting: I do believe, though, that there should be *rabidly* enforced general voting requirements. For example, no voting without mandatory proof-positive of your identity and citizenship, no same day registration, no early voting, extremely harsh penalties for fraud, total reform and national standardization of the absentee ballot systems (becomes a federal issue once you start voting across state lines), and so on. Voting is the fundamental process of our system - free and fair elections allowing us to decide for good or ill our own fate - and if we allow it to be corrupted, our whole system, every bit of it, is also corrupted. Every fraud in voting that occurs is a crime against everyone in that jurisdiction affected by that race (i.e. fraud in a Presidential election is a crime against every single American).
53 posted on 11/02/2002 9:07:48 PM PST by calenel
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To: calenel
Well, we're not to far apart. ..and no I don't recall having read any of your other posts. We'd have to work with the taxes issues some more.
54 posted on 11/02/2002 10:26:58 PM PST by blam
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To: AAABEST
"They actually have a working plan."

I don't doubt they do.

"As far as population, it would have to under 1.5 million. They looked at many other factors such as amount spent on political campaigns, freedom orientated populace and other variables."

Won't matter.
If the "FSP" worked, it'd be destroyed by the "powers-that-be" who're for a lack of better description, some absolutely evil, freedom-hating, power-hungry SOBs.

"At first I thought this was a pipe dream, but the more I look at it and the further it progresses, the more it seems not only workable, but a good idea."

I'd agree it's a fabulous idea; but, while it may not be a "pipe dream" it is nonetheless, a dream. -IMO-

"This is not succession by any means..."

Yet.
But it wouldn't take long after that many like-minded people were thrown together, with a federal leviathon sure to usurp their will?
Succession would be precisely what would be attempted as an end result; make no mistake about that, either.
(I mean, there's another FSP thread started & the "constitutional scholars" -- both 'Pubbie & Libertarian -- have already gathered to commence their word games; the corruption of this idea has already begun, my friend. ~Already.)

"...and they're not looking for separatists or violent types in any way."

Oh yea?
If this ever were implimented -- in any existing state -- one wouldn't have long to wait before that's all there'd be.
That is: one wouldn't be there to begin with unless they were "seperatist" minded & once after they'd gone that far & the fed leviathon were to inevidably screw with 'em??
They may not have been violent upon arrival but would sure in the hell become violent, afterwards.

"This is a legal and viable idea."

"Legal"?
Maybe.
But, "viable"?
Highly unlikely.

The idea's a wonderful thought though; make no mistake about it.
The evil bastards, I'm afraid, have taken such an attempt into account in their *plan* I gotta believe; and, I'm sure have some kind of contingency plan at the ready.
I'd bet you dollars to donuts the worms are wondering why no one's done something like this by now, already.

Now in my daydreams?
I envision taking back what was once ours to begin with; while, rounding-up the evil bastards responsible for having took it away?
To be summarily hung with a short piece of rope from the limb of a sour apple tree.

...that's what I've been dreaming about.

55 posted on 11/03/2002 1:41:52 AM PST by Landru
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To: Mudboy Slim
I see you were at the Yale thread, eh?

Check out this guy's article.
I thought it simply superb.

...maybe you will enjoy it, too.

56 posted on 11/03/2002 1:44:22 AM PST by Landru
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To: Landru
What'chu doin' up at this hour, Ol' Man?!

LOL and FReegards...MUD

57 posted on 11/03/2002 2:25:40 AM PST by Mudboy Slim
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To: Mudboy Slim
Didn't dawn on me all the leftover halloween chocolates I ate were loaded with caffiene.

-stupid-stupid-stupid-

So here I sit.

..."broken-hearted, tried to shit but only farted." :o)

58 posted on 11/03/2002 2:29:01 AM PST by Landru
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To: Landru
While I understand the frustration with the Status Quo that leads folks to believe secession or the FReeStateProect are the best we can hope for, I continue to maintain hope of retaking our Country as a whole!! To me, the FSP is a surrender to the Leftist forces that continue to assault this Nation, and I--for one--will not abandon the home my forefather's built in its time of greatest need!! In fact, I aim to do what I can to fix the damage and set us on a course to become that "Shining City on a Hill" that Ronaldus Maximus described so eloquently.

FReegards...MUD

59 posted on 11/03/2002 2:31:49 AM PST by Mudboy Slim
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To: Landru
LOL...I worked outside so hard and so long yesterday that I dozed off at 8 PM and woke up at 4 AM all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed...what do you think of my new tune, "Liars!!"?!!

LOL...MUD

60 posted on 11/03/2002 2:35:29 AM PST by Mudboy Slim
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To: Mudboy Slim
These people are -- justifiably -- frustrated & angry.
There's no harm in people tossing around ideas, either.
At the rate things are going I don't doubt it'll be too much longer when even ideas will be outlawed.

Of course, then again maybe there's no need to wait for that to happen.
The illegitimacy of, "Hate Thoughts," is already a reality, eh?

The only question then?

...is thinking of "freedom" really hateful?

61 posted on 11/03/2002 2:42:01 AM PST by Landru
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To: Mudboy Slim
HA!!
That'll work.
Shame you can't make a buck doing that stuff, eh?

Well think I'll try bed, now.

...bad news for *her*, too. ;^)

62 posted on 11/03/2002 2:45:08 AM PST by Landru
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To: Landru
"There's no harm in people tossing around ideas, either."

Of course not...then again, there's no harm in me explaining my opinion of why said ideas won't work...MUD

63 posted on 11/03/2002 2:45:42 AM PST by Mudboy Slim
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To: Mudboy Slim
...what do you think of my new tune, "Liars!!"?!!

Very reminiscent of a cover of Stairway to Heaven, performed with an added drum solo.

Think *Memphis Minnie.*

-archy-/-

64 posted on 11/03/2002 11:19:36 AM PST by archy
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To: RAT_Poison
I suggested that the Coast Guard (or Navy) fire their 3-inch deck gun or deck mounted .50 cal. machine gun across the bow of the vessel.

I think you'll find that the old 3"-38 and 3-inch 50-caliber deck guns are pretty well out of service in the few hundred US Navy warships remaining, replaced among the current Perry class missile frigates and most of the destroyer and cruiser fleet, with Italian-design Oto-Melara Mark 75, 76mm semiauto cannon. They are also in service on the Coasties Hamilton and Famous class cutters.

As for the *deck mounted .50 caliber* MG, I think you meant rail-mounted, though the old Vietnam-era PBR and Swift boats did indeed use deck-mounted .50s, often on a tandam mount with an 81-mm mortar [a dandy weapon for firing illumination rounds, though such light patrol craft aren't really up to the task described.] And there are a couple of deck-mounts available for the M2 and other small arms; I had a fun job with the Naval Weapons Support Center at Crane in Indiana fitting such mounts on light patrol boats and Boston Whalers for the Salvadorians a few years back.


65 posted on 11/03/2002 11:38:39 AM PST by archy
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To: Carry_Okie
You don't like my idea?

The initial *pilot program* has to be successful before anything similar could be effectively managed in one of the larger states- Alaska, California and Texas all being mentioned as future possibilities for several reasons, including their seaports, transportation hub infrastructure and international borders [both a curse and potential blessing- make lemonade!]

But any of those larger states would require a LOT more than 20K participants to get the job done; there are California congressional districts and cities where those numbers would scarcely make a dent. Prove that the concept can work first, as with Perot's *Reform* Party [that brought us Clinton's first term] or the successful candidacy of Governor Jesse Ventura in Minnesota, and you'll have the 2x4 with which to get the donkey's attention. And the elephant's.

-archy-/-

66 posted on 11/03/2002 11:54:46 AM PST by archy
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To: Landru
If the "FSP" worked, it'd be destroyedby the "powers that be" who're for a lack of better description, some absolutely evil,freedom-hating,power-hungry SOBs.

I agree that they'll try, but some creative annoyances and interruptions might distract them sufficiently to get the job done, though the initial FSP presentations of how the process might take place have been simplistic and Pollyannish to date.

But the example has been set by former US congressman Davy Crockett, who left his Tennesse home and farm- where too many of his loved ones were buried- and set off to build a new one in Texas. His parting words as he left Tennessee from the river town of Memphis remain valid for today's FSP porcupiners, as well.

Though I'm following the FSP activities with interest, I don't believe in putting all my eggs in one basket either. And as for the greedy and hateful power-brokers trying to forestall such dreams, I have lost fights before. But not when the other guy's pants were on fire.

-archy-/-

67 posted on 11/03/2002 12:06:45 PM PST by archy
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To: archy
"And as for the greedy and hateful power-brokers trying to forestall such dreams, I have lost fights before. But not when the other guy's pants were on fire."

HA!!
Nicely put, Arch.

...& I do get it.

68 posted on 11/03/2002 12:47:19 PM PST by Landru
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To: AAABEST; Squantos; madfly
I'll gladly pull up my tent stakes and move when the time is right.

Has anyone decided on a state? How much (violent or otherwise) resistance do you guys predict from the feds?

69 posted on 11/03/2002 1:57:26 PM PST by pocat
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To: pocat
Has anyone decided on a state

See the link in my post #39. Some parameters and desiderata for a likely preferred state have been identified, but nothing's set in concrete at all yet.

Indeed, with about a tenth of the core group now on board, this is an excellent tiime for you to add in your two cents worth on which ones you think are most suitable or downright unworkable. If you're interested, whether to make *the big move* immediately once that big decision is made or not, climb right on the pile and join in.

-archy-/-

70 posted on 11/03/2002 2:28:46 PM PST by archy
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To: Free the USA; 2Jedismom; 2sheep; 4Freedom; Aliska; Alabama_Wild_Man; Aquinasfan; ArGee; arielb; ...
FYI
71 posted on 11/03/2002 3:55:44 PM PST by madfly
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To: madfly
Bump
72 posted on 11/03/2002 4:00:26 PM PST by weikel
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To: freefly; .30Carbine; 68-69TonkinGulfYatchClub; Ace2U; Alas; alphadog; amom; Anonymous2; ...
FYI
73 posted on 11/03/2002 4:01:16 PM PST by madfly
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To: pocat; Landru; archy; Squantos; Mudboy Slim; u-89; teeman8r; watcher1; gcruse; Jim Robinson
My wife would go with me, and so would several others.

I'm going to give it some time. I fully intend to fight like hell in my area to implement change. If I see this awful, creeping socialism continue to take root rendering my efforts futile, the FSP is something I fully intend on undertaking. I don't care if it's 5,000 or 5,000,000 people participating.

I refuse to leave this earth without a chance of having my children know freedom. I won't have their lives destroyed by the sickness that's infected our society.

For God's sake, a human being has the right to be left alone, to grow and prosper and live a moral life. It's becoming increasingly clear that this will soon be impossible.

74 posted on 11/03/2002 4:27:12 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: AAABEST
Fine Post AAA !!..........

Stay Safe !

75 posted on 11/03/2002 4:47:02 PM PST by Squantos
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To: madfly
The Camp of the Saints
76 posted on 11/03/2002 5:14:58 PM PST by F-117A
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To: madfly
Why don't we just let everyone in Haiti move to Florida and then take over Haiti and declare independence? Let me know when it's time to form Committees of Safety and Correspondence.

If any politicians or lawyers want to join our happy crew, let 'em man the oars. We can always throw them to the sharks just before we hit shore.

77 posted on 11/03/2002 5:20:33 PM PST by Eastbound
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To: varon
nope , j.r. only kills "christian/american" men women and children.
78 posted on 11/03/2002 6:14:21 PM PST by gdc61
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To: AAABEST
Free State Project

Give me Liberty or Give me The FSP!

79 posted on 11/03/2002 6:38:19 PM PST by watcher1
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To: madfly
BTTT!!!!!!!
80 posted on 11/04/2002 3:11:42 AM PST by E.G.C.
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To: AAABEST
I'm going to give it some time. I fully intend to fight like hell in my area to implement change.

Indeed. I put a lot of effort in the last presidential campaign here in Tennessee in hopes that a defeat of Al Gore in his home state [and home county] would have an effect on the later voting in California. I should have known they'd find a means to avoid releasing the embarassing info until that wasn't much of a factor.

What I hadn't counted on was the Florida voting challenge, with a critical number of electoral votes in the balance. Had Gore taken Tennessee, he'd have had enough electoral votes that the brouhaha in Florida wouldn't have mattered, so we did the right thing, if for the wrong reason. And Gore carried neither his home state, his home county, nor his home voting precinct.

So don't give up on your efforts at home, nor your hope for improvement in the South. Indeed, one of the reasons I've held off from climbing on the FSP project bandwagon for as long as I have has been the fact that their target states with the best potential for success are mostly in the West and Northeast, with none in the South.

So the FSP is not the only egg in my basket either, but it's certainly a good egg to have in there. Neither do I particularly consider myself a Libertarian, but I reckon they'll do to have as neighbors.

-archy-/-

81 posted on 11/04/2002 7:55:12 AM PST by archy
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To: u-89
...from their site the early polls show New Hampshire in the lead unofficially at this time.

Though New Hampshire is landlocked, and the freestaters would prefer to have their seaport access, just in case a little federal extortion to bring them back in line is tried. Neither does current New Hampshire law appear to support ballot initiatives, one tool which the new resident voters hope to avail themselves of to reinstitute governmentr as a servent of the electorate. New Hampshire's 1,235,000 population might also require more sizable numbers than the 20,000 initial prospectives required for the project to achieve success in some other states with a smaller population and lower number of registered voters. But we'll see.

-archy-/-

82 posted on 11/04/2002 8:14:20 AM PST by archy
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To: archy
Neither do I particularly consider myself a Libertarian, but I reckon they'll do to have as neighbors.

I agree. The "large "L" libertarians are hard to get along with and their platform is goofy. The small "l" leaning types are kool. Either one however beats a liberal or a government loving RINO by a long shot.

83 posted on 11/04/2002 8:59:36 AM PST by AAABEST
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To: madfly
bump
84 posted on 11/04/2002 10:44:40 AM PST by mafree
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To: archy
I believe New Hampshire has a small piece of coast snuck in there between Maine and Mass. It seems from what I've heard that Alaska would be out just because too many folks interested in the project just wouldn't make that move. That would leave Deleware as the only place on the list with a coast line.

Your point about the size of the indigenous popluation is a valid consideration however one positive aspect is that New Hampshire's population is not, for the most part, of the same statist, liberal mind set as Vermont's or Mass.'s, yet.

85 posted on 11/04/2002 4:59:16 PM PST by u-89
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To: AAABEST
My wife would go with me, and so would several others.

Maybe you should move to Utah.....

86 posted on 11/04/2002 5:04:27 PM PST by u-89
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To: u-89
...one positive aspect is that New Hampshire's population is not, for the most part, of the same statist, liberal mind set as Vermont's or Mass.'s, yet.

Looks like it.


87 posted on 11/04/2002 6:02:51 PM PST by archy
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To: AAABEST
I'm going to have kids soon

Very cool ...

Without a doubt, having children and rearing them yourself is probably the single most terrifying act of rebellion one can wage against the Machine.

I'll keep you and your future family in my prayers.

88 posted on 11/06/2002 10:58:19 AM PST by Askel5
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