Skip to comments.2 lawmakers spurn Muslim's prayer - Republicans step off House floor
Posted on 03/04/2003 2:34:57 AM PST by sarcasm
OLYMPIA -- He prayed for the politicians, the state's prosperity and peace for all ethnicities and religions.
But when a Muslim cleric offered the opening prayer before the state House of Representatives yesterday, at least two lawmakers stepped off the chamber floor.
"It's an issue of patriotism," Rep. Lois McMahan, a conservative Republican from Gig Harbor, said of her decision to stand in the back of the room.
"The Islamic religion is so . . . part and parcel with the attack on America. I just didn't want to be there, be a part of that," she said. "Even though the mainstream Islamic religion doesn't profess to hate America, nonetheless it spawns the groups that hate America."
Rep. Cary Condotta, a Republican from East Wenatchee, also left the floor. He said the timing was not a coincidence, but he declined to comment further on why he left, except to say he was talking to another lawmaker and "let's just say I wasn't particularly interested."
A prayer is given at the beginning of each Senate and House session, and attendance is hit or miss, particularly on Mondays.
The interfaith organization Associated Ministries of Thurston County schedules the daily chaplain, said Cynthia Zehnder, clerk of the 98-member chamber. They have selected clerics representing a broad range of faiths, she said.
Imam Mohamad Joban, of the Islamic Center of Olympia, presented yesterday's brief opening prayer.
In part, he said: "We open this session of House of Representatives in the name of Allah the one God Abraham, God of Moses, God of Jesus, and God of Mohammed, peace be upon them all. . . . We ask Allah or God to bless the state of Washington so it may continue to prosper and become a symbol of peace and tranquility for people of all ethnic and religious backgrounds. We pray that Allah may guide this House in making good decisions for the people of Washington.
"At this time, we also pray that America may succeed in the war against terrorism. We pray to God that the war may end with world peace and tranquility."
Joban said the walkout was not hurtful, but ignorant.
"They're unable to distinguish between Islam as religion and way of life, and bad Muslims," said Joban, who has also given the opening prayer to the Senate. "They are easily able to distinguish between Christianity and bad Christians.
"They need to understand that like (President) Bush said . . . Islam is a peaceful religion."
Kathy Erlandson, director of Associated Ministries of Thurston County, found the small walkout disappointing, but not surprising.
"It makes me embarrassed to know that some of our legislators can't even treat someone with that common respect," she said. "He's an American citizen and he's praying for their work, then how can it be an act of patriotism to walk away?"
McMahan said she does not oppose having a Muslim cleric deliver the prayer.
Her departure was not a protest, but a personal decision not to participate because "the religion is the focal point of the hate-America sentiment in the world."
"My god is not Mohammed," McMahan added.
Joban said that if he were invited to give the opening prayer, he would do it again.
"Even if half of them leave it's OK for me," Joban said. "As a Muslim we have to respect what people believe and . . . we have to forgive something because of ignorance.
"The Holy Quran says that (one should) always respond to bad action with good and those who used to be enemies become friends."
Then he should be invited by his constituents to LEAVE. I have no patience left for those who refuse to recognize the basic freedoms upon which this nation was founded.
No matter what they CLAIM they believe.
The thing is, he didn't say the above.
Frankly, I think they were rude to walk out. He didn't say anything that was anti American, or that would be taken as pro Islam.
He simply gave an opening prayer.
What does concern me about all this, is that this type of instance, these people walking out, IS just the type of instance that could cause people to question if prayer should be given at all in the House or Senate.
That is NOT what we want to happen. There are many that would try to remove prayer from these branches of government, just as they want to remove 'under God' from the pledge and our currency.
If we can't be tolerant of the various faiths, someone will try to remove the prayer, saying that it is causing problems.
Not all Muslims are bad people, and we need to remember that, as hard as it may be to do sometimes.
In fact, for Israel's sake it's a good THING that Jacob did.
And for about 1,700 years so was Christianity. In fact, there are many here who will maintain that it STILL is.
you are kidding?
I suppose Leviticus doesn't call out the death penalty for some pretty mild stuff.
Wow - you have got to be the most arrogant mis-informed person I have yet to read! The book of Leviticus and all its rules and punishments apply ONLY to those that ascribe to the faith - Only to the Children of Israel. It does not command or dictate to the rest of the World. All of it is a covenant with those that chose to accept Gods Rule and by doing such will be saved from their own sin.
The Q'aran COMMANDS the killing of ANYONE not Muslim and will not convert.
Huge difference known to anyone who actually studies the issue.
An extended family ordinarily refers to one which brings/keeps cousins within the meaning of family.
My mom and dad constituted a nuclear family. My mother's 9 sisters and a brother, their spouses, my cousins, my cousins kids, and everybody else up to nearly 200 people constituted an extended family.
My father's experience with an extended family ended with his father's generation. But they used to live up on top of Weed Patch Hill in Brown County. It was village of cousins, and much of the property was held in common (or communally). There were more than 200 people involved in that one so it was more of a tribal situation.
Actually it was a tribe, but I'm not clear on which one(s). The Bin Laden family was just a hum-drum, run of the mill polygamous, but otherwise nuclear, family, much like hundreds of millions around the world!
LOL Or have the power to change the seasons:
In the book of the prophet Daniel, this false prophet is described as a king (the eleventh horn on a terrible beast) who would wage war against the Jews (the "holy ones"; see Deut. 14:2 on this term) and would change the Law including the calendar and the holidays (Daniel 7:8, 20-25).
Daniyel 7:8, 20-25
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots; and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.
20 and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, and before which three fell; even that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spoke great things, whose appearance was greater than that of its fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High; and the time came, and the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said: 'The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all the kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And as for the ten horns, out of this kingdom shall ten kings arise; and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the former, and he shall put down three kings.
25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the seasons and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.
Shemot (Book of Exodus) Chapter 11
1 And HaShem spoke unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying:
2 'This month shall be unto you the beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you.
This was commanded by God to Moses at the time of the Passover, which always comes in spring.
In accordance with its ancient beginnings (right from The Seven Days Of Creation when light was created after the darkness), Bible calendar days were, and are, determined to begin and end at sunset e.g "from evening to evening shall you keep your sabbath" (Leviticus 23:32 )
Bereshit (Book of Genesis)
5 And G-d called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
Vayikra (Book of Leviticus)
32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of solemn rest, and ye shall afflict your souls; in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye keep your sabbath.
The Bible calendar is a very simple and natural means of keeping time. Although today commonly known as the "Jewish calendar," it actually long predates the Jewish people. God Himself gave it to all humanity. It uses His earth and His heavens as a great clock that can always be counted on - the earth keeps on rolling, and the moon always goes around.
The Babylonians used it. When the exile ended the Jews brought it with them. This is why the Jewish calendar has Babylonian names for the months. But, the papacy changed all that with the introduction of the Julian calendar, which was later revised and became the Gregorian calendar. Under the Gregorian calendar, the New Year is changed and is no longer in the spring as God commanded. Passover was changed to Easter and of course the Sabbath was changed to SUN day. That, along with starting the "day" at midnight, made their "change of times and seasons" complete.
The days of the week were named as follows: Sunday was originally named afted the Sun; Monday was originally named after the Moon and was called Moonday, which evolved into Monday over time. The next day was originally named Mars Day after the Roman warrior god, but was later changed to Tiu's Day for the Teutonic warrior god. It later evolved into Tuesday as we know it today. Wotan's Day was named for the Roman god of peace, but it was later changed to Woden's Day after a Teutonic god. This day later evolved into our present day called Wednesday. Notice how the "e" and the "n" somehow got transposed over the years. Thursday was originally called Jupiter's Day, named after the Roman god of thunder and lightning. It later got changed to Thor's Day, named after the ancient god of thunder. Finally, it evolved into its present-day name. Venus' Day was the fifth day of the week, named after the Roman goddess who symbolized Spring. This name was changed to Frigg's Day after the Scandinavian Love goddess. The name finally evolved into Friday. Saturday has hardly been changed as it began as Saturn's Day, named after the Roman god of the harvest. Of course, it evolved over the years into our modern day Saturday.
Daniel 7 - the fourth beast called the terrible beast with 10 horns, the angel told Daniel this was the fourth kingdom from Babylon to rule the earth. Rome the fourth world kingdom is represented here. Rome had 10 divisions. Daniel has shown 3 of the 10 horns uprooted by the little horn power in Daniel 7, so we must look for three of the 10 divisions to be uprooted.
Three of the 10 divisions on the Roman empire were Arian in Belief. The Arians refused the authourity of the Bishop of Rome ( Pope) These three Arians were called 1. Vandals 2. Heruli 3. Ostrogoths, the last of these three Ostrogoths were destroyed by Justinian a Roman General under orders of the Pope in Rome in 538 AD. In 538 the last Ostrogoths was defeated, thus the last of the three horns were uprooted. In 538 AD the Pope took possession of the city after the Emperor decreed that he should be the head of all the Christian churches.
This begins the time peroid of the little horn that uproots the three horns in Daniel 7. The little horn power Daniel 7:11 is also called a beast, it continues for 1260 prophetic years. War is made on Gods people. 538 AD is the decreed marker in Daniel 7 for the Papal to begin its 1260 prophetic years given it by God. Although the papacy lived in Rome previous to 538 AD, Daniel marks the beginning of the 1260 prophetic time when the 3 horns are uprooted by the little horn power.
In Daniel 7 the little horn power continues to survive and is in power at the end of time when Christ returns to destroy it. The little horn was given 1260 prophetic years of time, so 538 AD + 1260 years = 1798 AD at this time Napoleon was setting out to conquer Europe, he was running out of war money, in 1798 Napolean sent his general Berthier into Rome capturing Pius VI and helping himself to the Gold in Rome. Napoleon issued a decree that the Papacy was dead and no further election of Pope's was to occur. Pius VI died in France. So you see 538AD-1798AD is the 1260 prophetic years alotted the Papacy by God in it's first phase.
The IS portion of the 'is, is not, yet is' prophecy of Revelation.... 'is not', is now (the papal power has been reduced), remember the head wound????
No. What I said is that any elected official who refuses to exemplify the Constitutional principles of neutrality with respect to religion ought to resign.
B) Islam is morally equal to Christianity.
Wrong again. What I said is that the government is to be neutral with respect to religion.
C) Polygamy is a social good.
What I SAID was, that you cannot make a link between plural marriage and social depravity, as the Old Testament patriarchs and the Latter-Day Saints in the Nineteenth Century exemplified.
D) Everyone who disagrees with you is a bigot.
No. Anyone who acts with bigotry is a bigot. My opinion has nothing to do with it.
Actually, you can replace all your points above with this one: It is pointless to try to summarize the points of argument of someone when you don't even bother to read what they write in the first place.
I don't need to check with anyone thank you. If a religion calls for killing me and my type, they are not my best friend. I am not for blurring the borders. Your attempts may be one of painting me as a "Bush bot", well I can assure you I am not thereof. Bush was wrong in there IMHO, though I see why He went that way. Bush has done a fine job so far in alot of areas IMHO.
BTW...you never did say what constitutional points these representative erred in? Just went on some wild tangent.
For example, the "Establishment clause" is the basis for the SC ruling that allows the use of public facilities such as schools for religious-oriented meetings such as school bible study groups and even churches.
Get this through your head: You can't just insist on rights for YOU and an abrogation of those same rights for someone else. That's the type of adolescent tantrum that one unfortunately encounters all too frequently on FR, and which is a discredit to the site--and to conservatism.
Well, I can't think why you got every single "summary point" completely wrong, then. Fancy that.
You need to wake up.
The police did NOTHING while a band of 30 or so protestors destroyed private and public property, committed criminal tresspass, and assualted other protestors.
Many of the peaceful protestors actually argued with then telling them (the violent 'protestors') to stop and take off their masks.
The group of 30 or so had made their headquaters in an abandonded building. The property owner contacted the police and tried to have them arrested for trespass. They were not arrested, but they eventually were told to leave by the authorities. Not before they had secured a new headquarters in a gov't-owned building. They didn't have to worry about being evicted anymore.
Alex Jones has all of this documented on film at www.infowars.com
You have miserably failed to dilineate how a couple of legislators exercising their First Amendment right to not involve themselves in an Islamic prayer is in some way the violation of some imaginary 'Constitutional PRINCIPLE'.
Hmmmm Wonder how the Islamic cleric would respond if asked to recite the prayer ALL in English including the word God?
I have to admit I don't understand this logic. Of course they'd probably sneer and make nasty comments. And they'd be in the wrong.
Why would they be wrong? Because they have no business sneering at religious expression so long as all religions are treated equally.
And this is the same argument I am making to those who claim the Muslim cleric should not have been able to do this.
Does that include Satanism, or are certain religions exempt because they seek to destroy the foundations of this Republic?
And reserve the smarmy retort - just answer the question.
We are not to be unequally yoked or to pray to other Gods..
I can be polite and friendly to my Muslims neighbors ..I can have friends of any religion..but I do not pray with them
But if you were an elected legislator, and walked out because a "Mormon" Bishop offered a prayer to open your legislative session, I'd expect AT LEAST an apology from you to your consituents, and even an offer to resign.
You have no right to show "favoritism" toward or disrespect against a particular religious faith when you are acting in your office.
Does that include Satanism?
Reserve any smarmy retort - just answer the question.
There is FAR more similarity between the world's great religions than there are differences--though the differences are more immediately apparent of course.
The golden rule exists in some form in ALL of them, for example. The common values are those that are the most crucial to society; the rest is mainly window-dressing as far as community life is concerned.
I don't think that "Satanism" qualifies under even the most broad-minded application of standards.
I ~think~ we have seperation of Church and state....Seeing that there can be no state religion I believe those woman had a freedom to leave ..
I would not make a scene but I would not go for the opening or I would leave quietly Bill...and I would grant the same right to anyone offended by a Christian prayer or a jewish prayer.
This is the reason I am against prayer in the schools..
We are not obligated to support any religious group whatsoever - but mass murder of civilians in the name of one's deity is antithetical to "commonly held values" - and Satanism has not done that.
The next terrorist attack on the U.S. will not be done by a Satanist, but a Muslim.
Why is that?
You have repeatedly made reference to 'standards', and 'principles' and 'rules'...but have yet to tell us what they are.
Or is this the 'law according to Illbay'...ephemeral and applied at your whim?
Sure she does...unless she is a member of the Congress, and it involves setting up a state religion.
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