The Great Purge

Lew Rockwell.com ^ | 4/4/2003 | Christopher Manion

[B. A. Conservative]

A specter is haunting National Review. The magazine that once sold T-shirts with Eric Voegelin’s picture admonishing us "Don’t let them immanentize the eschaton" has gone and immanentized it, married it, and stuck it on their masthead as their claim to the conservative movement. As an indispensable ingredient of their ideological enterprise, the purge of all wrong-thinking vermin is under way. That haunting specter is the disappearance into the mist of conservative principles they left behind on the bedrock shore of principle.

Now they proudly drift without anchor into the gnostic fog. True, they go not silent into that murky deep – indeed, curses abound, calumnies and diatribes, assuming the mantle of authority as judge, jury, and heir of the conservative "movement" they tried, and failed, to hijack.

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[B. A. Conservative]

Power is a strange thing. "Conservatives" now hold power, but have accomplished almost nothing in terms of enacting a conservative agenda or in replacing liberal judges with conservative judical appointments. Now they have forgotten the agenda in favor of eating their own in a struggle for power.

People who don't keep their eye on the ball are going to lose everything.

[OpusatFR]

I'm too busy keeping a rein on my nostical turpitude.

[Captiva]

? We were in the desert for 40 years. Give us some time to regroup. There are going to be different factions in the conservative movement & agenda. That's gonna happen as we grow more attractive to outsiders - their gonna wanna be inluded in the tent. It's up to us to keep them on the straight & narrow.

[DoctorMichael]

I guess the "Paleo"-underwear was waaaaaaaay too tight this morning.

[AmericaUnited]

"Conservatives" now hold power, but have accomplished almost nothing in terms of enacting a conservative agenda or in replacing liberal judges with conservative judicial appointments.

Don't be ridiculous! Look at Bush's judicial appointments. Don't blame conservatives because the demonrats are blocking every one. The entire political landscape and dicussion is shifting to the right.

You must be one of those demanding "purists" who want everything now or else they throw a tantrum. It took 70 years to get the left and it will take a while to move back.

[JohnGalt]

IMO, this was the most revealing article on the Incident Frum. NR conducting a purge is truly as silly as the New Republic doing a cover story on who is a liberal and who isn't.

[denydenydeny]

Now they have forgotten the agenda in favor of eating their own in a struggle for power.

When paleos say--as Justin Raimondo did here on FR that very afternoon--that America got what it deserved on 9/11, they are not our own anything.

They have cast themselves into the abyss.

[Grampa Dave]

Any Bravo Sierra posing as a conservative article in LugNutRocknotverywell.com automatically earns a Benedict Arnett award. So here is the Benedict Arnett award for the group that hates America, us and our president more that their mirror twins the Lunatic Left.

[Sgt Hulka 123]

I just love hearing the Dino-cons like Buchanan, Novak and others screaming that you can't be conservative and have fun at the same time.

[KeyWest]

Typical Lew Rotwell- nothing new here, move along.

[Cicero]

Well, well. Much ado about nothing, IMHO.

During clinton's Yugoslavian adventure, I thought the Weekly Standard was 180 degrees wrong. During the Iraqi war, I think they are pretty much right, even if for the wrong reasons.

Making Kosovo safe for Albanian drug runners was not in our national interest. Separating Islamic radicals, weapons of terror, and oil money is in our national interest. I'm not much in favor of foreign entanglements, but in the case of Islamism and its offshoots we really don't have any choice.

And, no, I also don't believe in immanentizing the eschaton. But as St. Augustine said, we are citizens of two cities, and we have a duty to the City of Man and our neighbors within it as long as it doesn't contradict our duty to the City of God.

[Grampa Dave]

I'm so tired of these perfumed Old con princes telling the rest of us what a real conservative is.

You are right, they have the same lack of a sense of humor that their mirror cousins, the Lunatic Libs have. Just look at any of their I hate America/Americans/NeoCons?Joos, and __________(fill in the blank) article posted on FR and the replies posted by their true believers.

I like your phrase Dino-Cons. I am borrowing it from you.

[SkyPilot]

Who wrote this? Oh.

lewrockwell.com

Nuff said.

[Grampa Dave]

Rocknut hates Lincoln and every non Dino-Con born since the civil war. So as you noted, nothing new here. I waiting for RocknutDino-Con to tell us that the Ghost of Abe Lincoln flew one of the jets into the WTC buildings.

As you noted nothing new. That is why any article posted from RocknutDino-Con will get the automatic Benedict Arnett Award!

[reed_inthe_wind]

What happened to school choice and vouchers to add competition for the public education debacle?

[homeagain balkansvet]

Of course then there's the question: are you BOTH a paleo and a neo? Well, if you're more paleo than neo, but not pure paleo, you're a Bronze Age Conservative. If you're more neo than paleo, but not pure neo, you're an Iron Age Conservative.

Pat's a Jurassic conservative, if not positively pre-Cambrian.... and as for Lew Rockwell, I like to think of him as the first monkey, the one on the far left, in the famous Ascent-of-Man picture: the Dumb of Dumb and Dumberer, as it were....

[homeagain balkansvet]

What happened to school choice and vouchers to add competition for the public education debacle?>>>

"We interrupt this conservative wet dream for a special News Report. American troops have invaded Iraq. I say again, American troops have invaded Iraq. Film at ll."

[headsonpikes]

"Now they proudly drift without anchor into the gnostic fog."

This guy seems to have a stash of the original Owsley acid.

[BlackElk]

National Review sure did an effective job of purging the mistress of Objectivism (and of many gullible enough to fall for her, ummm, lines). As Ludwig von Mises roared at la Rand in 1961: So you are the silly woman who thinks she can have freedom without God! That was the prelude to a fifteen-minute lashing by von Mises of his most pretentious intellectual inferior which drove her from A YAF sponsored birthday party and from the conservative movement. Nonetheless, in death, von Mises's reputation must suffer the detriment of having his name taken in vain by people like Rockwell and the paleohijackers who seek to ruin the good name of conservatism.

Rockwell links to lavender Justin Raimondo and his execrable trumpet of cowardice, antiwar.com and to the cowardly little lions of the Rockford Institute who attack their country while American soldiers are being summarily executed by Saddam's minions so that the identical foreherad wounds can be shown by some grinning Iraqi idiot to Al-Jazeera TV. I guess Al-Jazeera is another paleo operation. Justine also writes for Pravda which is another paleo operation whiuch will not be accused of CONSERVATISM.

One may also recall that Dean Clarence Mannion who was involved at Notre Dame so long ago that it was still Catholic, was also a member of the John Birch Society's Council and that Buckley read the Birchers out of the movement in the early 1960's, a little fact that Christopher Manion neglects to include in this screed. Dean Clarence Manion was a fine man. This article marks Christopher Mannion as a silly twit.

[Grampa Dave]

Those who label, color test, religion test, and use other so called litmus tests to categorize conservatives as you note are only fooling themselve.

Now you have insulted all of the monkeys in the world, " Lew Rockwell, I like to think of him as the first monkey, the one on the far left, in the famous Ascent-of-Man picture: the Dumb of Dumb and Dumberer, as it were...."

Becareful or PETA will be labeling you as an anti monkey bronze/iron/steel/titanium old con! :)

[aculeus]

Rock Screwloose alert.

[Grampa Dave]

A great reply. You tag line is very appropriate for this thread: " BlackElk (Viva Cristo Rey! There are plenty of conservatives but the term paleoconservative is a lie!)"

[Fraulein]

"Conservatives who come to Washington know it is a sewer," he said; "the trouble is, most of them wind up treating it like a hot tub." To paraphrase Cardinal Newman, Stan recognized that being a good conservative doesn’t make you more holy; it only makes you more guilty when you sin.

bump

[Fraulein]

ping

[dighton]

They have cast themselves into the abyss.

Exactly so.

[billbears]

Those who label, color test, religion test, and use other so called litmus tests to categorize conservatives as you note are only fooling themselve.

I absolutely can't believe you said this only to follow up

Now you have insulted all of the monkeys in the world, " Lew Rockwell, I like to think of him as the first monkey, the one on the far left, in the famous Ascent-of-Man picture: the Dumb of Dumb and Dumberer, as it were...."

with this. What did you just do Grampa? Is Lew not a good as liberal as you? Just because he doesn't run off half cocked in tow behind a crazed Canadian that's for worldwide policemen and 'our' form of government in every capitol? Lew is a conservative just as Buchanan (although admittedly I disagree with some of Buchanan's views) just as the official Republican Party. Mind you one group knows what the word conservative means and the other just goes traipsing off as the world's policemen ignoring the Constitution.

ahh, but would I have expected any less. Not one argument about the facts in the article for over 25 posts, just namecalling. BlackElk, thank you. While we may disagree politically (and we probably always will LOL) at least you offered an argument

[billbears]

Is Lew not a good as liberal conservative as you?

[bucephalus]

"Don’t let them immanentize the eschaton"

I am familiar with the words in this sentence that have more than one syllable, but could someone esplain what this pithy little phrase means?

[homeagain balkansvet]

"Don't let them act irresponsibly as if the End of the World were happening right now."

[homeagain balkansvet]

Mind you one group knows what the word conservative means and the other just goes traipsing off as the world's policemen ignoring the Constitution.

If my children are being raped by home invaders, I need a policeman to go find the perps and arrest them.

If our cities are being destroyed by incoming aircraft, we need to find the country sending them and destroy it.

Policemen are good when you are under threat.

I think that is in the Constitution, under the rubric "common defense." If you don't like it, go move back to your home country. I'd suggest Cloud-cuckoo-land, since Dixie surrendered in 1865.

[bucephalus]

Thanks. Wouldn't "immanentizing the eschaton" be what conservatives, particular theistic ones, would say that Marxists claim to be able to do, i.e. putting the ultimate value in History as the end-all of human life?

[Fraulein]

From the article:

Now, "immanentizing the eschaton" was Voegelin’s theoretical phrase describing the ideological attempt to promise in this world the perfection that Christians have always understood to be available only after death and the end of the world. The promised perfection bears only one price: give us power, and watch the future grow. Throw away the Constitution and its restraints on the power lust, and the world will be our oyster, prime for schucking. Throw in a little Trotskyite dialectic and Maoist love of contradiction, mix in a little hubris, and voila, you’re a neocon.

[homeagain balkansvet]

True, but I also would apply the warning to paleo or pre-Cambrian conservative lunatics who think that Jesus is coming NOW, or that we can accellerate His coming by doing things like helping Israelis rebuild the Third Temple. (Note please I am a big supporter of the Israelis, but I'm saying we can't build our foreign policy around the rantings of Hal Lindsey.)

[JohnGalt]

Well, I'll leave purges to Nazis, Communists, and NR.

Enjoy your new friends from the New Republic.

[bucephalus]

I always loved NR these past two decades. This neo-, paleo-, bronze- distinctions leave me cold though. I know that some of our old favorites Patrick J. (going on 10 years now) and Novak are acting a little screwy these days, but I remember these guys as old and great cold warriors. Many loathed (by some) libertarians I'm fond of too. Surely Patrick J. and the Prince of Darkness aren't immanentizers of the eschaton.

[bucephalus]

I'm sorry for not reading beyond the blurb. You're right to kindly push my nose into it. Tschuess!

[billbears]

If my children are being raped by home invaders, I need a policeman to go find the perps and arrest them

Agreed. Wasn't that the situation in Afghanistan? Mind you, it was a bit dicey from a Constitutional standpoint but there was precedence in the Barbary pirates. BTW, I like how the neocon line is bringing the 'children' into it now. It's for the children. Better ask the liberals if it's okay to use their line

If our cities are being destroyed by incoming aircraft, we need to find the country sending them and destroy it.

Again that issue was resolved in Afghanistan. A nation state was not sending planes to 'destroy our cities' as you say. FYI, some of your neocon buddies are already throwing out the name of Venezuela as our next situation that needs to be 'resolved'. What's your excuse going to be there?

Policemen are good when you are under threat.

Really? Policemen now arrest you before you even commit a crime?!? Guilty until proven future guilty?

I think that is in the Constitution, under the rubric "common defense." If you don't like it, go move back to your home country. I'd suggest Cloud-cuckoo-land, since Dixie surrendered in 1865.

Well we couldn't get out of this without a good name calling could we? Your arguments only go so far and as Frum does when you get backed into a corner with that little thing called the Constitution, best start calling names. Common defense is not preemptive strikes worldwide. Common defense is defending our borders, a strong defense in case we are attacked. As has been reported by the administration, the Taliban was behind 9/11. The overwhelming majority of the terrorists were oops!!, SAUDI ARABIAN, but we can't go bombing them now can we? They're a stand up ally. Yeah, right

[B. A. Conservative]

"What happened to school choice and vouchers to add competition for the public education debacle?"

When he ran the first time for governor of Texas, it was his main campaign theme. When it came to the floor of the legislature, his bill fell one vote short and he caved completely. One could say it was just another straw in the wind.

[homeagain balkansvet]

Policemen are good when you are under threat.

Really? Policemen now arrest you before you even commit a crime?!? Guilty until proven future guilty?

The man has been guilty for 12 years. When two gangs both declare war on you--and Saddam did declare war on the West, in 1990, when he invaded Kuwait--you act as if they were allies. He has been a threat to the United States for more than a decade. Now he's worm food. Which is a Good Thing.

BTW, the parallel goes only so far. There is no international judicial structure, so countries ultimately cannot go to war based on judicial proceedings, but on righteous perception of the best interest of the nation. We had a right, indeed a responsibility, to destroy Saddam, as well as Milosevic, Mladic, and all other threats to international peace and good order. We don't do this lightly, but when we do, we have a responsibility to WIN.

I think that is in the Constitution, under the rubric "common defense." If you don't like it, go move back to your home country. I'd suggest Cloud-cuckoo-land, since Dixie surrendered in 1865. Well we couldn't get out of this without a good name calling could we?

Names are called for. It's called "coming to terms." In my experience, it never fails: scratch a hard paleo and find a Confederate. End of story. Perhaps if you wonder why labels are stuck then perhaps you will change the circumstances that make the sticking possible.

Your arguments only go so far and as Frum does when you get backed into a corner with that little thing called the Constitution, best start calling names. Common defense is not preemptive strikes worldwide. Common defense is defending our borders, a strong defense in case we are attacked. As has been reported by the administration, the Taliban was behind 9/11. The overwhelming majority of the terrorists were oops!!, SAUDI ARABIAN, but we can't go bombing them now can we? They're a stand up ally. Yeah, right.

Earth to bears... when two countries or groups declare war on the United States independently, we MUST assume for our own safety that they are allied. To do otherwise will be folly supreme.

[B. A. Conservative]

Not to wax philosophical, I think we have a duty to do what we believe is the right thing regardless of the political consequences. The problem as I see it, is that there are not very many Republicans in Washington that share that belief. They seem more interested in their own political careers than in shaping public opinion to do the right thing.

In the final analysis, it is the difference between a democracy and a representative republic. For seventy years, we have had Democrats. Now that we finally have Republicans as representatives, they are behaving like Democrats.

As I see it, the job of conservatives is to surely and quickly and drastically reduce the size and influence of government. Instead there seems to be a host of splinter groups attempting to con us while catering to democrats.

[B. A. Conservative]

Attributing the comments of one man to his associates is fraught with hazard. Attributing those comments to any group that he might belong to is stupidity.

And lest you lose sight of a much bigger picture, George Washington admonished Americans not to meddle in the affairs of other men apart from freely trading with the willing under favorable circumstances. Since America has been kicking hornets' nests in the middle east for decades, you and everyone else shouldn't be too surprised that we actually got stung. And if this enrages you or anybody else, perhaps you should calm down and think it through slowly. Just maybe you are looking into the abyss because you are over the edge.

[billbears]

We had a right, indeed a responsibility, to destroy Saddam, as well as Milosevic, Mladic, and all other threats to international peace and good order. We don't do this lightly, but when we do, we have a responsibility to WIN

Really? When did Milosevic and Mladic declare war on these United States? Oh, but we have a right and a responsibility to destroy these people. Perhaps you could point this right and responsibility out to me in the Constitution. It wouldn't apply under 'common defense'

[B. A. Conservative]

• America is not united. We are evenly divided with almost diametrically opposing view points. The difference between conservatives and liberals is that liberals want to use the force of government to impose their viewpoints on everybody else, including usurping our Constitutional rights.
• If the Republican leadership were willing to do the right thing, Frist would inform the Senate that the next vote in the Senate will be on Estrada's nomination. The Democrats can then decide how long it will be before any other vote takes place on anything.
• It doesn't take more than few seconds to do the right thing. The problem Republicans face is not that they don't know what the right things are, it is that they are afraid of failure in convincing the public and in turn are afraid of losing their jobs if they fail to convince the public of "what is the right thing."
• Just because it took 70 years to confuse Americans and lead them down the primrose path, doesn't mean that I should have to wait another 70 years to get back my Constitutional rights. I want my rights restored now. And I am willing to defend them at gun point if necessary. Unless I am mistaken, that is precisely the reason for the Second Amendment.

[B. A. Conservative]

From the comments of others, I must be a paleocon instead of a neocon. Since I am not privy to the differences, is it safe to assume that paleocons have been conservative for a long time and neocons are late-comers to the party?

Or must I assume that I am going to have to wait for ages and ages before I get my Constitutional rights back? And does that mean the neocons are going to sweet talk the Democrats into eventually giving them back to us? Or at least some of them?

Correct me if I misunderstand the purpose of our Constitution and why so many Americans have died to defend it, but my impression is that the Constitution serves the explicit purpose of preserving certain rights to the states and others to individuals expressly to prohibit the majority of Americans from stripping or bending those rights through the courts or legislatures of any level of government.

Maybe most "conservatives" are willing to sacrifice the Constitution to "just get along with others" or because they believe we derive more good from our other shared common interests, but I am not. And if our elected leaders are not willing to stand up for my rights, rest assured I have no interest in their staying in office. I would rather fight than accept the lesser of two evils. We don't need Republicans at all if they are not going to be any different from Democrats. And most of you will never see your Constitutional rights restored if you would rather "just get along."

There is little doubt in my mind that the Founding Fathers would be embarrassed by the discourse of most Republicans, and Patriots would be incredulous.

[B. A. Conservative]

""Don’t let them immanentize the eschaton" I am familiar with the words in this sentence that have more than one syllable, but could someone esplain what this pithy little phrase means?"

Only those who dwell with the gods, those who speak legalese, or maybe the lunies know for sure. I'm just a simple guy who doesn't have a clue. But all that talk about "eschaton" sounds like BS to me.

[LonePalm]

You forgot the Barf Alert and Lew Rockwell warnings.

Garde la Foi, mes amis! Nous nous sommes les sauveurs de la République! Maintenant et Toujours!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! We are the saviors of the Republic! Now and Forever!)
LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)

[Yeti]

The overwhelming majority of the terrorists were oops!!, SAUDI ARABIAN, but we can't go bombing them now can we?

It is kind of odd that we are taking strong action against everyone BUT the country that we KNOW is producing the terrorists.

[tpaine]

"The promised perfection bears only one price: give us power, and watch the future grow.
Throw away the Constitution and its restraints on the power lust, and the world will be our oyster, prime for schucking."

Nice turn of phrase, and the nut of what this teapot tempest is about, and always has been.

"Throwing away Constitutional restraints"; --- is the name of the game.

[Carthago delenda est]

It basically means "Don't think that you can create heaven on earth." Of course, this is what most liberals believe; if you can just have the government remove all bad influences, they say, the natural goodness of humanity will spring forth. For obvious reasons, this is baloney.

"Don't immanentize the eschaton" is something of a conservative-insider phrase, like those words Star Trek fans use that only fellow Trekkies can understand. Welcome to the club!

[SauronOfMordor]

If my children are being raped by home invaders, I need a policeman to go find the perps and arrest them.

You go find the policeman -- I'm going to be too busy filling the perps with .45 hollowpoints