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Recent job ad: H1 transfers (Taking American Jobs)
Dice.com

Posted on 04/08/2003 12:45:08 PM PDT by 1stFreedom

Folks,

I've been looking for a job for weeks without success. While searching on Dice.com, I found an ad targeting anyone with an H1 visa to transfer!

Whoever says workers on visas don't take jobs from Americans is smoking crack.

Foreign workers send money "home" thereby taking money out of the US economy. They take both old and new jobs away from Citizens. This might be fine during times of economic boom, but it's a shame during times like now.

Call and write your representatives in Congress asking them to, on an emergency basis, deny ALL H1 and L1 visas and related transfers. They may give you the excuse that they don't want to have the jobs shipped overseas, but don't accept that excuse. Ask them to impose heavy tarrifs or taxes on corporations that relocate thier IT work.

Tons of IT people have been out of work for some time now, and it's reached a boiling point.

I hate to say it, but I think we'll have more success with the Dems then the Pubbies.

(One thing the Pubbies are not considering is that many IT professionals are in fact incorporated and are small businesses.)

DICE Search results:

Title: H1 transfers Skills: JAVA, J2EE, EJB, oracle, DB2, SQL Server, Seibel, .net, VB, ASP, peoplesoft, CRM, Business analyst, 21 cfr PART 11, QA testers

Date: 4-7-2003 Location: Edison, NJ Area code: 732

Tax term: FULLTIME Pay rate: DOE Length: permanent

Position ID: AS202 Dice ID: 10108743

Job description: We are looking for a qualified candidates who are looking to transfer their H1. The candidates will be interviewed in their respective fields by experts and if selected will be considered for further training conducted in house. Salary will be based on skills. Local candidates preferred but is not a limitation. Good communication skills required.

Requirements: JAVA, J2EE, EJB, oracle, DB2, SQL Server, Seibel, .net, VB, ASP, peoplesoft, CRM, Business analyst, 21 cfr PART 11, QA testers Travel required: none Telecommute: no


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KEYWORDS: employmentlist; immigrantlist; weaselslist
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To: MineralMan
I have more faith in our Republic than you apparently
151 posted on 04/08/2003 3:00:38 PM PDT by clamper1797 (Credo Quia Absurdum)
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To: dirtboy
"Bush is not going to solve this.

Neither are the current crop of Democrats - they're too beholden to Silicon Valley interests.
"

Neither is going to solve it. Silicon Valley isn't the only culprit here. Everybody's taking things offshore or bringing in foreign workers. Stop the H1-B program and more stuff will just move offshore.

Yes, many Americans are ticked about it, but not ticked enough to move their business to companies that don't do this. In fact, it's almost impossible to find the companies that are not doing this.

It's not just the Democrats. The Republicans are doing the same thing. They may give lip-service to "American Jobs for Americans," but when you look at their votes, it's clear they don't mean it.

Find your own business is what I advise young kids. Work for someone, but be working toward establishing your own business. It's the only way.

We're returning to a cottage-industry economy, IMO, but it's a high-tech cottage now. Take a look around the internet. While the big companies are getting hosed all over the place, there are thousands or 10s of thousands of small entrepreneurs who are doing just fine. They're bootstrapping their little businesses and growing them, keeping them modest and making money at it.

I was amazed when I switched to working for myself. The internet offers me a global customer base for my wierd little business, and it's growing all the time.

Phooey on the corporations. Screw 'em, I say.
152 posted on 04/08/2003 3:02:02 PM PDT by MineralMan
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To: BrooklynGOP
AND as a As a foreign born, naturalized citizen you have EVERY right to be / work here ....
153 posted on 04/08/2003 3:02:27 PM PDT by clamper1797 (Credo Quia Absurdum)
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To: clamper1797
"Someone who has spent many years in college gaining a degree and many more years building a career is probably NOT going to start over at 50. Granted there will be an exception here and there BUT there are more than a million high tech workers out of work. They are NOT all going to .. or even be able to start over again.

"

I did. No big deal. I'm a lot happier now than I was, and making almost as much money.
154 posted on 04/08/2003 3:03:07 PM PDT by MineralMan
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To: MineralMan
I did. No big deal. I'm a lot happier now than I was, and making almost as much money.

My dad did that in his late forties after getting laid off from a mid-level executive position with a Fortune 50 that is now a Fortune nothing. He made $600 bucks his first year but ended up doubling his income. He had this stuff hit him 20 years ago.

155 posted on 04/08/2003 3:05:44 PM PDT by dirtboy (Rally For America - Steps of PA State Capitol, Harrisburg - March 29 at high noon)
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To: MineralMan
Phooey on the corporations. Screw 'em, I say.

I'm actually working in a large corporation for the first time in my life as a contractor. Amazing place.

156 posted on 04/08/2003 3:06:25 PM PDT by dirtboy (Rally For America - Steps of PA State Capitol, Harrisburg - March 29 at high noon)
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To: 1stFreedom
I think it's worth pointing out that the cause of the IT jobs slowdown has a heck of a lot more to do with the bottom dropping out of the stock market than it does with the H1B program.

It's probably true that IT professionals are complaining right now about their difficulty finding jobs and attributing the problem to cheap overseas IT labor.

But the boom years we experienced in the late 90's were primarily associated with the creation of internet startup companies. The reason there are fewer jobs now is because there are fewer tech companies around to hire IT workers than there were 3 years ago.

Would eliminating or scaling back the H1B program be a good idea? Probably. But until the market recovers (which I believe it will), it's going to continue to be difficult for startup companies to get funding.

The goal here should really be to see that these businesses are more successful. Focusing on the foreign labor market doesn't really do anything to accomplish that goal. You may get some sense of satisfaction out of preventing them from hiring people from India, but in the end if they're out of business and you're still out of work, what's the point?

Finally, I disagree with your assertion that GOD gives you the right to work. Who told you that?
157 posted on 04/08/2003 3:07:15 PM PDT by HumbleButExceedinglyAccurate
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To: MineralMan
Actually I plan on it too ... and have tried in the past ... BUT realize that we are probably the exception. The other problem not discussed is that if ALL the laid off
high tech workers went into sell say insurance ... our country will be dependant on foreigners for our high tech industry ... you know ... the stuff that keeps us the only super power and enables us to defeat our enemies even though we are outnumbered by them. I, for one, am not willing to capitulate our high tech industry to foreigners for an easy buck.
158 posted on 04/08/2003 3:08:58 PM PDT by clamper1797 (Credo Quia Absurdum)
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Comment #159 Removed by Moderator

To: elfman2
You only show your ignorance, like many other projectionists < SIC &GT here....The whole computer science major was tough at Cal State University Chico. Over half of the students were Asian, not because salaries were in the tank...But the Americans at the dominantly white school refused to take a tough major. They weren't hungry enough. You don't know what you're talking about.

Hmmm, now this poses some interesting questions. Because of new quotas in the past 5 or so years, Asians have had a tougher time getting into California Universities. But in 1992, Asians were a "preferred" quota category. How many Asians went to CA State Universities because of that quota, and how many of the "lazy whites" never made it through the front door because they were not in a preferred class?

How many students at Chico were Asian? I know Berkley has a high percentage, so having a program filled by "half" Asians might be no more than representative of the population.

Are there "lazy whites" out there? Sure there are. There are also lazy Asians, and others. (There are also some racists, bigoted Asians out there, as evidenced by your post.) Some are American's. Some are foreign nationals. My own wife and kids are Asian. I'm white.

I have many, many friends out there who are both foreign nationals, and here (now, or originally) on H1B's. About half, incidentally, are white (British, Irish, Canadian, South African, etc.).

I have no problem with my foreign friends working here, and for those who seek to become citizens here, more power to them. They're just the sort of hard working individuals, and future patriotic Americans, we need here. However, in my experience, at least half of the foreign nationals I work with have no intention of becoming, or contributing to the U.S. as a citizen. THey are taking the quick buck, and in fact, some are very hostile to the USA.

There may be "no right to work" in the USA, as some have pointed out on this post. It is the obligation of the U.S government to protect Americans first and foremost. That includes protection against anti-capitalistic "dumping" of resources (money, workers, or goods) on the US market. If the US government does not protect it's citizens, it cedes it's moral authority to govern. Foreign Nationals have NO RIGHT to work in the USA, Constitutional, moral, or otherwise.

I'm sorry, partner, but it is YOU who lack knowledge.

By the way, I'm one of those "lazy Americans" who put himself though college, paid his own way, served his country and put his life on the line to defend it, paid for his own IT education, and in part, for the experience too, and passed the toughest IT training program in the world. Admittance was very selective, gained only by extensive interviews, plus a one year internship, and where over 2/3's eventually washed out of the program before completion. Most of those who finished, by the way, were lazy Americans like myself. I don't know what color or the nationality of their parents, because that kind stuff has just never mattered to me.

FReegards... SFS

160 posted on 04/08/2003 3:13:17 PM PDT by Steel and Fire and Stone
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To: Viva Le Dissention
>>Except you want me to subsidize your labor market.

Nope. Not asking for a penny from the average person, nor corporations. No subsidies needed.

>>Tell me how that helps me?

It helps you because people who work spend money, much more then those who don't. This money is paid to businesses all the way up the distribution/supply chain. This keeps the economy going strong.

During the internet "boom" this process was masterfully illustrated. Companies grew along with people's spending.

Now we are seeing what happens when a "large" percentage of people are unemployed and/or not spending money. The money to business slows down all the way up the same distibution chains. This impacts the entire economy. Is your portfolio worth less today? If so, the IT unemployment problem has direct contribution to that devaluation. (Well, maybe you had a bad broker also).

So yes, my working does help you.

>> handout

If I wanted a handout I'd ask you to pay my rent a@@hole.

>>If a business has total sovereignty over its workforce, as it SHOULD, then it can discriminate against anyone it pleases, including Americans.

First of all, business don't have total sovereignty over anything. You are working from a faulty assumption.

Business are legal entities recognized by the States according to local, State, and Federal statutes. The State can close, punish, and regulate a business. The business entity is a creation of the State.

Second, the God Given Rights rights of citizens are enumerated. The citizens of this country have their rights recognized in the Constitution. Corporations are not citizens, do not have constitutional rights, and are not even on the same level as citizens. Corporations are recognized as legal "persons" for purposes of legal liability and taxation, not for resons of sovereignty.

>>it is infallible because it works.

It doesn't "work" extremely well. Take a good look at how people lived in early 1900 under capitalism. Capitalism by itself is an utter failure. Just like communism; on paper it sounds great but in practice it fails. Now, having said that, I would take capitalism any time over other forms of government. But not "pure" capitalism, because it doesn't work. None of the economic systems are perfect or infallible, some just work better than others.

>>you don't believe in conservative principles.

No, I just don't subscribe to what you define as conservative. You aren't the economic "pope."

>> You are a socialist.

You have no clue. I've personally lived in a socialist country and seen the poor results of socialism. I've had the "luxury" of socialized medicine by being an Army brat. (No offense to the Medical Corps, of which I was also a member). Socialism is the farthest thing from my belief system. If I were a socialist I'd be on medicare, medicade, welfare, etc and still be complaining that it wasn't enough.

In fact, I have a medical bill from an emergency room visit in Canada. I refuse to pay this bill out of principle. It is my opinion that since they sap off of our defense spending thereby allowing them to spend more of their money on socialized health care, I refuse to allow them too mooch off of me as a citizen. I consider this "debt" from them a downpayment for my contribution to the defense of the North American continent.

>>You expect government to run businesses.

No, you put those words in my mouth. Presidents, CEOs, and the lot are the ones to run the day to day business.

>>You either believe that businesses are sovereign entities or they are not.

They are not soverieng entities but creations of the State. The State, having given "life" through a corporation by recognizing and allowing it, has the absolute right to regulate the corportion. The question is not the sovereignty but the level of regulation. Conservative principles lean to very little regulation while liberal principles lean towards outrageous regulation.

>> believe companies are sovereign and should not tolerate one iota of government interference with their practice.

This is not a reasonable idea. Considering the fact that Governments provide the basis the recognition of a corporate entity, it is unresonable to think that the government has no regulating authority. And the Corporation has very little strenght in resisting a government. After all, a government has an Army, a corporation doesn't.

161 posted on 04/08/2003 3:14:52 PM PDT by 1stFreedom
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To: HumbleButExceedinglyAccurate
But the boom years we experienced in the late 90's were primarily associated with the creation of internet startup companies.

The Internet startups were a factor, but the main factors were that every company was upgrading their systems from the old mainframe paradigm to Client-Server, then to some degree to Web-based applications. Also companies used the Y2K crisis to justify overhauling all their systems in one fell swoop. That work is pretty much done now, and there isn't nearly as much necessity to upgrade corporate systems, as these companies are now happy with their current systems. Now the emphasis is on integrating systems together, but the days of rewriting old systems to accomodate the "language du jour" are pretty much over.

162 posted on 04/08/2003 3:16:13 PM PDT by dfwgator
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Comment #163 Removed by Moderator

To: HumbleButExceedinglyAccurate
>>Finally, I disagree with your assertion that GOD gives you the right to work. Who told you that?

It's the natural law my friend. You have the right to live, eat, breath. In this day and age life is sustained through work outside of agriculture. In this country, life is no longer sustainable merely through raising one's own food. That takes land, supplies, and labor. All of these cost money.

To deny you the ability to work is to deny you the ability to sustain your being. Quite naturally, you have the right to sustain that being. The way to sustain your life is to work.







164 posted on 04/08/2003 3:25:26 PM PDT by 1stFreedom
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To: 1stFreedom
That is an illegal advertisement. The H1 sponsor must always state that no American was available for the job. this ad says they only want an H1. Call the INS and report the anti-American bastards. Besides, I bet you will find it is another H1 doing the advertising.
165 posted on 04/08/2003 3:28:15 PM PDT by PatrioticAmerican (Arm Up! They Have!)
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To: PatrioticAmerican
I believe many of the ads on job boards are questionable.

The same ads get posted month after month. Obviously, they are ads for non-existant jobs. When the employer is questioned about such ads, they often respond "oh that was closed last month. yada yad yada".
166 posted on 04/08/2003 3:38:25 PM PDT by 1stFreedom
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To: dfwgator
Most companies didn't deal with Y2K related issues until 1999. The internet boom on the other hand started up in earnest in 1996 and didn't really experience it's drastic downturn until the Janet Reno justice department won (temporarily) it's suit against Microsoft.

Here in the Seattle area (one of the hardest hit), it was staggering how many companies were running off of VC money invested by current & former MS employees. As their stock value went down, they pulled out of the internet startup market and the affect snowballed.

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the days of system rewriting are over. These systems always require updates. Sometimes the changes are driven more by technology and sometimes with changing business needs, but neither of these causes have showed any signs of slowdown.
167 posted on 04/08/2003 3:42:05 PM PDT by HumbleButExceedinglyAccurate
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To: 1stFreedom
I don't believe in your natural law that gives you the right to a job. I think you're making it up. And your attempt to tie this right to agriculture is just goofy.

E-I-E-I-O.
168 posted on 04/08/2003 3:55:58 PM PDT by HumbleButExceedinglyAccurate
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To: HumbleButExceedinglyAccurate
>>I don't believe in your natural law that gives you the right to a job.

Your disbelief clashes with reality.

>>I think you're making it up. And your attempt to tie this right to agriculture is just goofy.

It's a fact. For a majority of the history of humanity, man worked the land and hunted. This is not goofy but history. Today, in our culture, it's almost unrealitic to try and sustain one's life this way.

The only way to preserve your life is to work for wages, which you spend on food. If you don't have a right to work, then you don't have a right to attain the means to feed yourself.

It's a really simple concept.



169 posted on 04/08/2003 4:07:12 PM PDT by 1stFreedom
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To: Steel and Fire and Stone
"I'm sorry, partner, but it is YOU who lack knowledge."

Maybe you should read backwards a post or two before you jump both feet into an argument, take a quote out of context and try (pitifully) to turn it around on the author. Take the time to see specifically why I told "traditionalist" he didn't know what he was talking about before you assumed something else and argue with it.

And don't quote "lazy Americans" at me as if I said that, even if you'd like to believe it in order to make your ignorant reply stronger.

170 posted on 04/08/2003 4:07:38 PM PDT by elfman2
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To: Viva Le Dissention
Except you want me to subsidize your labor market. Tell me how that helps me? Worse, your policy HURTS me. Not only am I forced to subsidize you because you want a handout, the fewer people in the market (as a result of the fewer immigrants) makes for smaller possibilities for division of labor.

  OK, you do realize that the H1B program is already subsidizing the cost of labor, right? They offer immigration, green card, and potential citizenship. These things all have a positive value, for which the employer is not paying. So, do you advocate doing away with this subsidy?

If a business has total sovereignty over its workforce, as it SHOULD, then it can discriminate against anyone it pleases, including Americans.

  A business does not have total sovereignty over its workforce. In fact, it doesn't have sovereignty at all. It's not a sovereign. Rather, a business may operate under the rules of the sovereign government that controls its territory. So long as they do so, they may continue to exist. If they violate the rules, they may be punished or disbanded. Repeat after me, "A business is not a sovereign."

This is exactly what I've been saying: you don't believe in conservative principles. You are a socialist.

  A conservative, as I understand it, wishes (in general) to conserve the status quo. You are the one advocating radical change in the way our laws work, to promote your view of unfettered capitalism. You may, from the views you've expressed here, legitimitely claim to be a capitalist. You may not claim to be a conservative. The two often intersect - but as you show - not always.

Drew Garrett

171 posted on 04/08/2003 4:18:06 PM PDT by agarrett
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To: Viva Le Dissention
I am a Capitalist. I believe companies are sovereign and should not tolerate one iota of government interference with their practice. Hey pal, only nations are truly sovereign. A corporate entity that does business within a said nation is only sovereign up to the point where its practices and the laws of the nation digress. Since the corporation's business is wholly within the nation, and not the other way around, the nation's laws take presidence over the companies policies. You are like my mother's chihuaua yapping at my father's pointer; all big talk, and nothing to back it up.
172 posted on 04/08/2003 4:49:07 PM PDT by GaConfed
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To: 1stFreedom
Bottom line is this: I don't believe that God gives you the right to demand that someone else pay you to work for them, regardless of whether they want/need your services.

It's their right to decide.

If a group of 100 people were to show up at your door, would they have the right to do work at your place and demand that you pay them? No way! How could you pay these 100 people when you don't have a job yourself?

Having said all that, most people will go out of their way to help someone in genuine need.

173 posted on 04/08/2003 5:03:18 PM PDT by HumbleButExceedinglyAccurate
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To: Im Your Huckleberry
I turned in a cabling company in suburban D.C. I used to work for, that had about 20 illegal scumbag aliens on their payroll. Result? Nothing. I've e-mailed and called my worthless Congresscritters and former INS more times than I can remember. Result? Nothing. The SOBs we elect, and the SOBs they appoint to run things, are worthless, and the system doesn't work anymore. Is it time to open the "third box" yet? Maybe not, but that time's drawing closer every day.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

174 posted on 04/08/2003 5:06:47 PM PDT by wku man
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To: clamper1797
"The other problem not discussed is that if ALL the laid off
high tech workers went into sell say insurance ."

You have to be a lot more creative than selling insurance to make this work. Most successful self-employed people find small niches that are unfilled.
175 posted on 04/08/2003 5:10:51 PM PDT by MineralMan
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To: 1stFreedom
One could add, of course, that Roman Catholic teaching on the topic is summarized by the aphorism: "Work is for man, not man for work."

Thus, treatment of workers as chess pieces who are expendable is morally wrong. The treatment of labor prior to NLRB and FLMA was morally abominable.

It is interesting that under Catholic labor principles, the more children a worker had, the more he was to be paid--to accomodate the expense of raising a family.

It goes without saying that the Church also interpreted the 7th Commandment as an injunction against laziness or non-productivity on the job...
176 posted on 04/08/2003 5:15:50 PM PDT by ninenot
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To: Viva Le Dissention
"If a foreign immigrant from Taiwan wants my job and is willing to do an effective job at half my salary, I fully expect my employer to fire me and hire the immigrant."

So, by your reasoning, Americans should be willing to drop their standards of living to the same level as Indians/Pakis/Indonesians, etc. who have spent their lives sleeping on dirt floors, just to stay competitive? Sorry, pal, that ain't gonna happen. We'll grab the proverbial torches and pitchforks and march on D.C. first. Don't get in our way.

P.S. What's up with that sissy-ass French screen name?

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

177 posted on 04/08/2003 5:17:36 PM PDT by wku man
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To: 1stFreedom
Wrong conclusion.

What's actually happening is that the employer (or contractor) is building a database of prospective employees.

Run the ad incessantly and you'll get responses. Archive the responses until you need one of 'them.' Hire 'em, and fire 'em (you'll find a reason) when you've used them up.

THAT'S Capitalism.
178 posted on 04/08/2003 5:17:49 PM PDT by ninenot
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To: HumbleButExceedinglyAccurate
History began long before you were born.

Read some. It's good for you.
179 posted on 04/08/2003 5:19:09 PM PDT by ninenot
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To: Viva Le Dissention; A. Pole
As a side note, I think that you're wrong about the free market not working in today's world. Hong Kong, which has a much "freer" (if that's a word) market than the United States, and it has been one of the leading economic producers of the past 50 years

Hong Kong, while more free-market than US is still very far from libertarian. Did you know that the government owns all of the land? That's right, in HK you can lease the land, but the government is still the owner.

The government spending is about 20% of GNP; bear in mind, though that their military spending is close to nil.

And there is government-owned housing for the poor and a government-owned university too! How is that for a free market?

180 posted on 04/08/2003 5:22:20 PM PDT by Feldkurat_Katz
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To: timm22
Isn't it govt intervention that is causing the problem? Or are you in favor of open borders and worldwide competition for jobs within our borders.
181 posted on 04/08/2003 5:23:01 PM PDT by jeremiah (Sunshine scares all of them, for they all are cockaroaches)
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To: wku man
P.S. What's up with that sissy-ass French screen name?

He can't even get his French right. It should be

Vive La Dissention

not

Viva Le Dissention

182 posted on 04/08/2003 5:33:13 PM PDT by Feldkurat_Katz
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Comment #183 Removed by Moderator

To: jeremiah
Isn't it govt intervention that is causing the problem? Or are you in favor of open borders and worldwide competition for jobs within our borders.

To some degree, it is a government problem. But adding more intervention, in the form of tariffs and high taxes, will probably not help. Ideally, the government should not be involved at all, whether it is by issuing special visas or blocking entry to the country to protect "American" jobs.

If not for the health risks and tremendous security risks, I would favor open borders. I'm realistic enough to see the need to regulate entry into the country to make sure someone isn't smuggling in a nuke or a deadly contagious disease. Government has a legitimate role in defending the nation, so borders and border guards make sense.

But I don't think that immigration regulations should extend to distorting the labor market. No Amercian has the "right" to a job. And I'm saying that as someone who lives in Texas and faces the prospect of competition from immigrants from all over the world.

184 posted on 04/08/2003 5:50:00 PM PDT by timm22
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To: cousin01
These jobs require no higher skills than research laboratory technicians.

OK, so what is the reasonable pay for a "research laboratory technicians" with few years of college? Should they be able to afford car, get a loan for house or to support family?

185 posted on 04/08/2003 7:03:23 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: Viva Le Dissention
You either believe that businesses are sovereign entities or they are not. There is no gray.

"Your logic is flawed. No bussiness is forced to remain in the America. Governments do not control where a business conducts its business nor where it hires its employees. Business's are free to open shop in any country they choose to. They are sovereign. The U.S. is also a sovereign entity and as a sovereign entity must control immigration for the sole purpose of benefitting America and the American population. If limiting immigration is required because of unemployement it is the sovereign responsibility of the Federal government to do so. The government is for the people by the people. Something you apparently forgot. You can hire whoever you want, just take your company out of America and hire all the slaves you want. We don't need you importing your slaves to our country.

186 posted on 04/08/2003 7:14:11 PM PDT by blueriver
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To: Viva Le Dissention
Worse, your policy HURTS me. Not only am I forced to subsidize you because you want a handout, the fewer people in the market (as a result of the fewer immigrants) makes for smaller possibilities for division of labor.

Why not to open borders completely then?

187 posted on 04/08/2003 7:27:37 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: Viva Le Dissention
Family or community is simply another value--a commodity like anything else. It happens like this even in today's quasi-socialist economy. If I have a family, I make a value decision when I go to work: do I work 80 hours a week to earn more money for my family, or do I work 40 hours a week and spend more time with my family? It is a value, nothing more, nothing less--and values, like anything else, can be bargained in the capitalist system.

I do not agree. Family, community, tribe, nations are not mere values. They are the fundamental part of human nature as man is a social being. Undermine them and you will undermine the individuals and destroy the whole society.

It is an illusion can you can leave alone - being a true hermit is an extermely hard undertaking and not possible without some social support.

188 posted on 04/08/2003 7:34:17 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: Viva Le Dissention
As I stated before, I fully support open immigration....

China and much of the Socialist 3rd World also like our policy of near unlimited immigration. And the Communists in Beijing would most certainly be in favor of totally removing any remaining obstacle to an unlimited, open border immigration policy for America. From there they could flood America with a few hundred million of their agents and take total control of our country without firing a shot.

You call yourself a capitalist...heh heh heh...no; at best you are a useful idiot for the Left who has little insight into human nature or history. At worse you are an open borders socialist masquerading as a capitalist.

189 posted on 04/08/2003 9:18:26 PM PDT by WRhine
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To: A. Pole
Reasonable pay...is what a willing employer and employee agree it is. Ability to afford a car, get a loan for a house or support a car are relative aren;t they.

My dad shared a car with his mom and rented a house while I was growing up so he could afford to support our family.

Many in our country think they are entilted to certain things and when they are out of reach, somehow it is someones fault.
190 posted on 04/09/2003 2:30:47 PM PDT by cousin01
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To: cousin01
Reasonable pay...is what a willing employer and employee agree it is. Ability to afford a car, get a loan for a house or support a car are relative aren;t they. My dad shared a car with his mom and rented a house while I was growing up so he could afford to support our family. Many in our country think they are entilted to certain things and when they are out of reach, somehow it is someones fault.

You might be right in some sense, but remember that in the countries with which American workers will have to compete, governments provide cheap public transportation, subsidized shelter, primitive but free medical care etc. So a Chinese can manage by sharing communal appartment with other families, get to work on a bus or bicycle (roads are designed to facilitate this) and OUTCOMPETE American who will not be able to pay bills or support family.

I know, you think that it is not government duty to care about such petty local problem or follow national prejudice when the global market is the god.

191 posted on 04/09/2003 2:50:52 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: A. Pole
I know, you think that it is not government duty to care about such petty local problem or follow national prejudice when the global market is the god.


Actually, you might be surprised that I agree with you about government involvement here. I have not been in favor of an unfettered NAFTA.

The theme of this thread has been the Impact of H1B on IT jobs. Here I lay the blame on our education estbblishment. We have failed to anticipate and provide sufficient Americans with necessary skills and created an environment where HIB visas were justified to satisfy our growing need for skilled workers.

As with any government program it ends up with unintended consequences. It is for that reason that I think we should drastically reduce the H1b program at this time.

AS far as competing with workers in the Global market, that's a tough one. I don't know much about the dynamics of World Trade. It seems tho that we have been living pretty high on the hog and that some amount of normalization is inevitable.

Could it be that each generation 'living better' than the previous has come to an end? Is that necessarily a bad thing?

192 posted on 04/09/2003 3:49:49 PM PDT by cousin01
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To: snopercod
If you think things are bad in the symbol-manipulation world, it's even worse in the engineering world.

Not to mention H-1B lab techs, nurses and physician's assistants. There was no one in my doctors office who didn't speak broken English (except the doctor, and I'm sure the provider group will find a way to offshore his job as well.)

193 posted on 04/09/2003 3:54:50 PM PDT by Euro-American Scum
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To: Steel and Fire and Stone
Even IT managers know they're not getting quality.

They don't care about quality. They just want it cheap.

194 posted on 04/09/2003 4:03:06 PM PDT by Euro-American Scum
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To: Steel and Fire and Stone
If the US Government does not control the Visa IT labor, there will be no American's in the business in 5 years.

I don't look for this to happen any time soon, if at all. On the one hand, Republicans want an unending supply of cheap labor in the unskilled, and now professional job markets that large companies can put to good and profitable use. On the other, the Democrats want a steady stream of "oppressed third world victims of evil corporate greed", i.e., voters.

Either way it will turn the American middle class into a third world hovel living in a marginal level of poverty. The only question in my mind is: what will these companies do with their goods that no one will be able to afford domestically, and that no foreign country will want overseas? They may want out money, but they don't want our goods.

195 posted on 04/09/2003 4:09:05 PM PDT by Euro-American Scum
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To: ninenot
We are also watching the US manufacturing base exit to the 3rd world. At this time, the stampings business is exiting rapidly. Price may be better--but when we lose all the toolmaker skills, WHO will manufacture military equipment??

I have to concur, sad to say. I interviewed for an IT manager's job with a major manufacturer in southern California, only to discover during the course of three days of talks, that all the needed was someone to mind the store while they converted from an HP3000 to an Oracle system and move the whole operation to Sarawak.

Let's see. We don't manufacture anything anymore. We don't design anything anymore. We don't build anything anymore. We're getting so we don't service anything anymore. What's that leave?

I know. We're hell when it comes to lawsuits.

196 posted on 04/09/2003 4:18:09 PM PDT by Euro-American Scum
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To: cousin01
AS far as competing with workers in the Global market, that's a tough one. I don't know much about the dynamics of World Trade. It seems tho that we have been living pretty high on the hog and that some amount of normalization is inevitable.

Yes, if you think that the national wealth accumulated though the generations is the sole property of the owners/employers (at least legally if not morally). Then of course course the workers who did not secure their share in the ownership lived "pretty high on the hog".

Now that borders and tarrifs and being eradicated in the name of free trade and the capital gets divorced from labor moves to other countries in search for profit, workers who lived "on the hog" have to be normalised with their Chinese or Indian counterparts.

Fine, but first:
India and especially China has national policy to reduce the disruption of the rapid change

Second the normalisation means for Chinese workers most of the time the raise in standard of living. This does not have to cause much destruction. But for Americans at the lower income/skill levels it can spell disaster. There is no infrastructure in America adjusted to the Chinese wages.

Do you know what I'm getting at?

197 posted on 04/09/2003 5:15:49 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: 1stFreedom
Learn how to read, don't assume where anyone comes from/ make disparaging remarks about that country and the poster, and yes, GROW UP !

And, since you and the others on this thread ( and like threads ) just moan & groan, about others and your sorry plight, instead of doing something about it...like looking for another job ( and YES, they ARE Out there, you just have to be willing to move, sometimes take a lower pay grade ), one can assume that YOU guys weren't all that hot at work. No wonder you are still having such problems.

And, no, a democratic REPUBLIC does NOT " owe it's citizens jibs, job gaurentees, nor keeping out those who can do the work. What you want is SOCIALISM ; which makes one wonder just why you're on a Conservative forum. ; ^ )

198 posted on 04/09/2003 9:28:46 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: clamper1797
He won't, dear ... now , YOU go back to whatevewr nation your ancestors came from.
199 posted on 04/09/2003 9:30:03 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: A. Pole
Yada, yada, yada ...

His employer did NOT give him a chance to get American citizenship. You don't know what you're talking about.

Americans can take jobs, that pay whatever it is and that isn't servitude.What the companies who make it off the backs of H1s do, is to con their employees. They wake up, after a while and get better paying jobs. That isn't " servitude ". Look up the meaning of the word.

Nowhere, did Gaas say anything about " open borders "; that's your own paranoia speaking, dear,

200 posted on 04/09/2003 9:34:32 PM PDT by nopardons
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