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Notre Dame priest: Creationism debate unique to U.S.
The Bozeman Daily Chronicle ^ | 2003-05-11 | Walt Williams

Posted on 05/11/2003 4:38:14 PM PDT by Junior

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To: RadioAstronomer
Love the spectrum

If you study it closely, you'll notice a slight redshift.

1,041 posted on 05/18/2003 4:07:15 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: PatrickHenry
A "receding thread" placemarker.
1,042 posted on 05/18/2003 4:08:27 AM PDT by Junior (Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes.)
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To: Jorge
We all believe what we feel is best for ourselves, and what makes sense....I cannot conceive of God, the creator, giving us the gift of life, and then punishing us for eternity, over something we may or may not have done here on earth for 70 or 80 yrs.
1,043 posted on 05/18/2003 7:25:47 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: Aric2000
I am sorry, but I could not believe in any god that would condemn me unless I worshipped him a certain way. A god like that does not deserve worship, that god is like a child, a spoiled brat.

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24).

Aric, it all comes down to the truth. It's not about worshipping God 'a certain way'. It is about worshipping Him, period. The word "worship" actually means "worth-ship". To worship someone or something is to acknowledge the worth of that person or thing. You falsely imagine that you are under no obligation to acknowledge God because you claim that He is unreasonable. But the truth is, He is worthy to be acknowledged and He is willing to reason with you:

"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool." (Isaiah 1:18).

You may pretend that He is unreasonable if you like, but you're only damning yourself.

You cannot be forgiven until you sacrifice my son to me, and then after you kill him, then you have to believe in him in order to be forgiven, I will give you NO proof, I will just tell you, so believe or else.

As Paul said, "This thing was not done in a corner." Unless you have done the hard research yourself, and really looked at the evidence for the resurrection, you cannot speak honestly to the issue.

1,044 posted on 05/19/2003 7:31:27 AM PDT by music_code
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To: stuartcr
We all believe what we feel is best for ourselves, and what makes sense....I cannot conceive of God, the creator, giving us the gift of life, and then punishing us for eternity, over something we may or may not have done here on earth for 70 or 80 yrs.

Sorry, but reality is what matters, not feel-good beliefs we imagine for ourselves.

As to hell...remember that once created, you will never cease to exist. The nature of existence, due to our sin, is in two steps: life in this world, and life in the spirit world. You set the course yourself. There is one road that leads to heaven, which is narrow; and then there are all the other roads, which lead to hell. If you have chosen to follow one of the broad roads that lead to hell, then you cannot charge God with error when you end up there.

1,045 posted on 05/19/2003 8:02:20 AM PDT by music_code
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To: RadioAstronomer
However, the geological and evolutionary record definitely shows that a literal interpretation of Genesis is not correct.

How? What is the geological record? (Hint: if you attempt to make use of the fantasy referred to as the "geological column" your answer will be rejected.)

And finally, there is no such thing as the 'evolutionary record'.

1,046 posted on 05/19/2003 8:21:02 AM PDT by music_code
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To: music_code
I didn't realize that what you believe in is the reality. How do you know that once created, you will never cease to exist? How do you know the nature of existence? How do you know there is a heaven, a hell?
1,047 posted on 05/19/2003 9:14:17 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr
How do you know that once created, you will never cease to exist? How do you know the nature of existence? How do you know there is a heaven, a hell?

The B-I-B-L-E (Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth).

1,048 posted on 05/19/2003 10:14:18 AM PDT by music_code
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To: music_code
(Hint: if you attempt to make use of the Bible as your proof, your answer will be rejected.)
1,049 posted on 05/19/2003 11:50:15 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr
(Hint: if you attempt to make use of the Bible as your proof, your answer will be rejected.)

Without the Bible, there is no way that any of us could know anything for certain concerning man's origin, identity, purpose, morality, and destiny. It is revealed truth from God.

Now of course I realize that you do not accept the Bible. However, the scriptures are authoritative. If you fairly consider the evidence, it becomes obvious that the burden of proof shifts to the naysayers to make their case:

Internal Evidence:

The evidence for the authority of the Bible falls into two major categories: internal evidence and external evidence. I mean by internal evidence, the evidence that is found within the Bible itself. By external evidence, I mean evidence that is found outside the Bible, such as archaeology, science, philosophy, and ancient manuscripts. Let us first consider the former, the internal evidences.

Self-proclamation

The first fact is that the Bible claims to be the Word of God. The authors knew they were writing the words of God, even though they often did not fully understand what they were writing. 2 Timothy 3:16 states, "All scripture is inspired by God." 2 Peter 1:21 states, "No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." Jesus himself viewed the Old Testament as authoritative and quoted from it throughout his ministry.

Holy Spirit

Second, the Holy Spirit confirms to us that the Bible is the Word of God. John 16:13 states, "But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth." The Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin also assures the believer that the Bible is God's Word.

Transforming Ability

Third, we have evidence concerning the transforming ability of the Bible. Hebrews 4:12 says, "The word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit." Romans 12:2 says, "And be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." The Word of God and the Spirit of God actually transforms the lives of people. The Bible has changed the lives of murderers, drug addicts, top government officials, business people, and students, to name just a few people from every walk of life who have been transformed by the Bible. No other book can make such a claim. This is because the Bible is not a mere book on good living but is literally packed with power. It is the Word of God with the power to change lives.

While it can be argued that these evidences are all subjective, there remains one source of internal evidence which cannot be denied.

Unity

The Bible covers hundreds of topics, yet it does not contradict itself. It remains united in its theme. "Well, what's so amazing about that?" you may ask. Consider these facts. First, the Bible was written over a span of fifteen hundred years. Second, it was written by more than forty men from every walk of life. For example, Moses was educated in Egypt and became a prophet over Israel. Peter was a simple fisherman, Solomon was a king, Luke was a doctor, Amos was a shepherd, and Matthew was a tax collector. All the writers were of vastly different occupations and backgrounds.

Third, it was written in many different places. The Bible was written on three different continents: Asia, Africa, and Europe. Moses wrote in the desert of Sinai, Paul wrote in a prison in Rome, Daniel wrote in exile in Babylon, and Ezra wrote in the ruined city of Jerusalem.

Fourth, it was written under many different circumstances. David wrote during a time of war, Jeremiah wrote at the sorrowful time of Israel's downfall, Peter wrote while Israel was under Roman domination, and Joshua wrote while invading the land of Canaan.

Fifth, the writers had different purposes for writing. Isaiah wrote to warn Israel of God's coming judgment on their sin, Matthew wrote to prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah, Zechariah wrote to encourage a disheartened Israel who had returned from Babylonian exile, and Paul wrote addressing problems in different Asian and European churches.

If we put all these factors together, the Bible was written over fifteen hundred years, by forty different authors, at different places, under various circumstances, and addressing a multitude of issues. It is amazing that with such diversity, there is such unity in the Bible. That unity is organized around one theme: God's redemption of man and all of creation. Hundreds of controversial subjects are addressed and yet the writers do not contradict each other. The Bible is an incredible document.

Take ten contemporary authors and ask them to write their viewpoints on one controversial subject. Would they all agree? No, we would have disagreements from one author to another. Now look at the authorship of the Bible. All these authors, from a span of fifteen hundred years, wrote on many controversial subjects, and they do not contradict one another.

It seems one author guided these writers through the whole process: the Holy Spirit. 1 Peter 2:21 states, "No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." The unity of the Bible is just one more amazing proof of the divine inspiration and authority of the Bible.

External Evidence

In our study on the authority of the Bible, we have studied the internal evidences, which are found within the Bible itself. Except for the unity of the Bible, most of these arguments are subjective in nature. Now we will study the external evidences of the Bible, that is, evidences found outside the Bible.

Indestructibility

The first external evidence is the indestructibility of the Bible. The Bible is the most well-known book in the history of the world, and no book has been attacked more than it. Skeptics have tried to destroy the authority of the Bible for the last eighteen hundred years. It has undergone every kind of scrutiny possible from archaeology, science, philosophy, and computers. Yet, despite all these attacks, the Bible proves itself to be true again and again. Each time the skeptics have been wrong, and the Bible has proven itself true. Just the fact that the Bible has remained steadfast in its authority after two thousand years is another piece of evidence supporting its divine origin.

Archaeology

The second source of external evidence comes from archaeology. Middle Eastern archaeological investigations have proven the Bible to be true and unerringly accurate in its historical descriptions. Nelson Glueck, a renowned Jewish archaeologist, states, "No archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference."

Dr. William Albright, who was not a friend of Christianity and was probably the foremost authority in Middle East archaeology in his time, said this about the Bible: "There can be no doubt that archaeology has confirmed the substantial historicity of the Old Testament."

Here are a couple of examples of the historical accuracy of the Bible. A good example is found in Genesis 14. The Bible speaks of Abraham's victory over Chedorlaomer and five Mesopotamian kings. For years, the critics stated that these accounts were fictitious and many people discredited the Bible. In the 1960s, however, the Ebla tablets were discovered in northern Syria. The Ebla kingdom was a powerful kingdom in the twentieth century B.C. The Ebla tablets are records of its history. Thousands of tablets have been discovered. What is important is that many of these tablets make a reference to all five cities of the plain proving the Genesis 14 account to be accurate.

Another example is the story of Jericho recorded in the book of Joshua. For years skeptics thought the story of the falling walls of Jericho was a myth. However, in the 1930s, Dr. John Garstang made a remarkable discovery. He states, "As to the main fact, then, there remains no doubt: the walls fell outwards so completely, the attackers would be able to clamber up and over the ruins of the city." This is remarkable because city walls fall inward, not outward.

The March 5, 1990 issue of Time magazine featured an article called, "Score One For the Bible." In it, archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon claimed Jericho's walls had fallen suddenly. Many scholars feel this was caused by an earthquake which may also explain the damming of the Jordan. Additionally, grain was discovered, which shows the city was conquered quickly. This find adds credence to the biblical account. Further study by Brian Wood found the date of the fall of Jericho to match the Bible's date.

Here are just two great examples of archaeology authenticating the historical reliability of the Bible. No book is as ancient, and at the same time, as convincingly accurate as the Bible. Indestructibility and archaeology are two external evidences for the Bible.

Prophecy

There are many more external evidences for the Bible, but I'll just cover one more: evidence from prophecy. The Bible contains hundreds of prophecies which have come to pass. No book in history has ever come close to the Bible when it comes to fulfillment of prophecy.

The prophecies in the Bible are very specific and accurate. Nostradamus claims to have made hundreds of prophecies that have come true, but if you read his prophecies, you will find them to be vague and unclear. His symbols and language can be taken to mean a number of historical events. Unlike many such prophecies, biblical prophecy is very specific.

Here are some examples. In Ezekiel 26, which was written in 587 B.C., Ezekiel prophesies that the mighty city of Tyre would be destroyed. Tyre was made up of two parts, a mainland port city and an island city half a mile off shore. Ezekiel predicted mainland Tyre would be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, many nations would fight against her, the debris of the city would be thrown into the ocean, the city would never be found again, and fishermen would come there to lay their nets.

In 573 B.C., Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city of Tyre. Many of the refugees of the city sailed to the island and the island city of Tyre remained a powerful city. In 333 B.C., however, Alexander the Great laid siege to Tyre. Using the rubble of mainland Tyre, he built a causeway to the island city of Tyre. He then captured and completely destroyed the city.

Today, Tyre is a small fishing town where fishing boats come to rest and fisherman spread their nets. The great ancient city of Tyre to this day lies buried in ruins exactly as prophesied. If we were to calculate the odds of this event happening by chance, the figures would be astronomical. No, it was not by coincidence.

Here's another example. There are over three hundred prophecies made of Jesus in the Old Testament. Prophecies such as His place of birth, how he would die, His rejection by the nation of Israel, and so on. All these prophecies were made hundreds of years before Jesus ever came to earth. Because of the accuracy of the prophecies, many skeptics have believed that they must have been written after 70 A.D.--after the birth and death of Jesus, and the destruction of Jerusalem. They have thereby tried to deny that they are even prophecies.

However, in 1947, the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. These scrolls contained the book of Isaiah and other prophetic books. When dated, they were found to be written from 120 to 100 B.C.,(8) well before Jesus was born. It would have been an incredible accomplishment for Jesus to have fulfilled all three hundred prophecies. Some say these prophecies were fulfilled by chance, but the odds for this would be exceptionally large. It would take more faith to believe in that chance happening than in the fact that Jesus is God and these prophecies are divinely inspired.

No book can match the Bible when it comes to prophecy.

1,050 posted on 05/19/2003 12:35:55 PM PDT by music_code
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To: music_code
Even with the Bible, we do NOT know anything for certain about man's origin, etc.

What makes the scriptures authoritative? It is not evidence. If there is a burden of proof, it must be on the ones that claim such things as resurrection and virgin birth happened. The proof of NO resurrection or NO virgin birth, are evidenced every single day since the beginning of history. There is NO evidence of resurrection, except in the claims of a very old book.

It is not valid for something to prove itself. There is NO external evidence of resurrection or virgin birth. The other events could or could not have happened, but they are irrelevant when compared to resurrection. Just because events (that are within the realm of possibility) have been accuratedly prophesied, is NOT proof of resurrection or virgin birth...these are OUTSIDE the realm of possibility.

A claim is not a fact. Of course everything is inspired by God, He created us!

I've no doubt that a man named Jesus was born and most probably crucified, I also understand that He could very well have believed that He died for our sins, and His followers could also believe this to their death, but that does not prove that He did.

Your proof depends on itself for proof....something that is not accepted as proof anywhere but in this Biblical context.
1,051 posted on 05/19/2003 1:17:40 PM PDT by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr
Even with the Bible, we do NOT know anything for certain about man's origin, etc.

Genesis spells out man's origin. What makes the scriptures authoritative? It is not evidence.

How convenient. I've just presented a long list of several different types of evidence for the authority of the Bible, both internal and external evidence. Now, if I had not presented any evidence at all, no doubt you would be demanding that I produce it. But when I do present the evidence (and what I presented was really just the tip of the iceberg) then all of a sudden I am cavalierly told that all evidence in support of the Bible must be dismissed. Hmmm. If there is a burden of proof, it must be on the ones that claim such things as resurrection and virgin birth happened. The proof of NO resurrection or NO virgin birth, are evidenced every single day since the beginning of history. There is NO evidence of resurrection, except in the claims of a very old book.

This rather simplistic denial of yours does not take the historical context into account at all. What you are forgetting is that the written testimonies of the Resurrection of Jesus were written by contemporaries of Jesus Christ. If they were false, they would have been rejected and would not have survived inclusion in the Bible. There were too many people who were still around who knew of the events of Christ's life, and who could set the record straight.

1,052 posted on 05/19/2003 1:58:55 PM PDT by music_code
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To: music_code
What it boils down to, is what I said in my last sentence...the evidence you present depends on believing that which you are trying to prove...it just doesn't work with anyone other than those that already believe the Bible is the innerrant word of God.

What could possibly be simplistic about denying the act of resurrection? Only one place in the history of man is it claimed. My burden of proof of no resurrection is the fact of millions of people that have died and NOT come back. I believe the burden of proof is yours, and the mere word of people from 2000 yrs ago, just isn't enough when compared to every single human being on the face of this earth that has died. Besides the fact that it happens to be beyond the realm of possibility.

Once again, you rely on the Bible to prove that the Bible is correct....as I said, that is not real evidence of resurrection. All the other events you mentioned are within the realm of possibility, (except maybe for the talking animals, virgin birth, and huge ocean creature that swallows people), and they may or may not have happened...the fact that they could possibly be re-created in this day and time, renders them irrelevant to the discussion of something which CANNOT be re-created. You have no proof, just a strong, heartfelt belief, let that be enough...it is for me, and millions of others throughout history....that is the end of it. Unless you must have the last word, please do not respond to this, as I wish to leave this thread.
1,053 posted on 05/20/2003 5:17:01 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr
What it boils down to, is what I said in my last sentence...the evidence you present depends on believing that which you are trying to prove...it just doesn't work with anyone other than those that already believe the Bible is the innerrant word of God.

You have not read it seriously then. External evidence such as archaeological discoveries which confirm the Bible, certainly is not an example of 'believing that which you are trying to prove'. Neither is fulfilled prophecy. You are just trying to wave your hand and make them go away.

My burden of proof of no resurrection is the fact of millions of people that have died and NOT come back. I believe the burden of proof is yours, and the mere word of people from 2000 yrs ago, just isn't enough when compared to every single human being on the face of this earth that has died. Besides the fact that it happens to be beyond the realm of possibility.

In this last sentence you reveal your closed mind. You are asserting that there are no supernatural events. Since you would have to possess all knowledge to make this statement, and since of course you don't know everything there is to know, then you cannot make this statement with integrity. Thus you reveal your bias.

1,054 posted on 05/20/2003 5:38:20 AM PDT by music_code
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To: music_code
I really wanted to stop, but I guess you don't. You seem obsessed with what you perceive as the truth, and making me acknowledge it. I am quite open to the supernatural, in that I believe in God Almighty, with no means of substantiating this claim, other than innate, self-evidence of a daily basis, that their is a creator of all. This belief, however, does not include resurrection from the dead, nor virgin birth, as their is nothing that is self-evident to me that anyone has come back from the dead. Of course I am biased, as are you. This will be my last reply.
1,055 posted on 05/20/2003 10:05:48 AM PDT by stuartcr
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