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Kit (Canadian Forces Gear)
Farfromcanadahar | Tue 17 Jan 2006 | Captain Dave

Posted on 01/28/2006 4:33:36 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4

Every time anything happens to Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, everyone with a beef against the current federal government seems to feel the need to ratchet-jaw on about the poor, wretchedly equipped Canadian military. As someone who’s been issued all the kit, and who has had access to the stuff other countries are using, I find this tendency extremely irritating.

Canada doesn’t have a big navy. We don’t have guided missile cruisers, (working) submarines, or aircraft carriers. Our air force is suffering from decades of neglect, and we are stretched mighty thin just sustaining our forces in Afghanistan with our brace of C-130s. We are mothballing our tanks. It’s safe to say that as far as the big-ticket stuff goes, we pretty much suck.

But the soldier stuff, the vehicles and the clothing and the protection and (sorry, Gen Hillier) the gizmos… now there, we have another story.

I’ve posted before about the G-wagon. I’m not going to link to it, just scroll down and you’ll see what I think about that particular item.

I haven’t posted about the LAV-III. I haven’t felt the need. That thing is simply the best armoured fighting vehicle in the world. Armour, protection (yes, there is a difference), armament, optics, navigation, suspension, every single subsystem is state-of-the-art. The Yanks have their own version - which differs only in the lack of a turret, as an American officer involved in evaluating the Canadian version told me, only because of a difference in deployment philosophy - and it has saved countless American lives in Iraq.

The Canadian C7 rifle has been adopted, over the American M16 rifle on which it is based (although it looks similar, it has been heavily modified for the CF), by a number of foreign militaries, among them the Netherlands, and reportedly the British SAS. We have just been issued with a still newer model, the C7A2, which has so many useful and innovative improvements that I despair of listing them without putting my civilian readers to sleep (Collapsible stock! Green furniture! Cruciform Weaver rails! Oh, alright…).

Our new camouflage pattern, CADPAT, was adapted by the USMC, then the US Army, and rumour has it that several other countries are looking at adopting their own versions.

New night vision equipment. New communications equipment (Brits are buying our stuff). New NBCD equipment. New boots. New packs. New (only just invented) artillery with precision-guided ammunition. New mine- and blast-resistant vehicles (Nyalas). New clothing. Grenade launchers. C9A2s. It goes on and on.

Is it perfect? Hell no. Combat uniforms, designed to be worn under fragmentation vests, that have chest pockets? And no arm pockets? WTF!? And seriously, mate, what genius came up with a ‘modular’ tactical vest that doesn’t allow the user to carry more than 4 magazines? After every other fighting force in the world, not to mention your own soldiers, has come to the conclusion that soldiers require up to 10 or more magazines in modern battle? By the way, great job in making grenade pouches that the grenades you give us don’t fit into. That’s especially useful. I put my Garmin in one of mine. Maybe I can use another for an MP3 player. And don’t even get me started about the absurd, almost criminally negligent administrative system under which we suffer. I really didn’t enjoy not getting paid for over two months this fall.

But for the love of God, I think back to the Army I joined in 1987, and the 1950’s pattern webbing and 1950’s vintage equipment I was originally issued with. I think back to the vehicles we used to drive, the clothing we used to wear, and frankly the attitudes we used to have, and I don’t even recognize us.

Gen Hillier is right. It isn’t about the gizmos. Gizmos are just a manifestation of something that’s been going on, largely unnoticed by the society we serve, for many years now. We have been changing. Not getting a shiny new paint job or plastic surgery. In very many ways, we are a fundamentally new, and different organization than we used to be. Still with problems, but baby steps, people, baby steps.

For all of those that pity the Canadian Forces: keep your pity.

You will shortly find that ‘pity’ is entirely misplaced.


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KEYWORDS: afghanistan; banglist; canada; canadiantroops; kandahar; miltech; oparcher
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Kit

I had occasion to observe the Canadians on KAF. I ate breakfast with them most mornings and lunch with a different bunch most afternoons. They moved in across from my outfit and I parked my truck beside one of their G-Wagons or LAVIII's or Terranos. They are not poorly equipped. Their desert camo uniforms blend in to the dust and adobe walls even better than USMC desert cammies. Their body armor has shoulder pads and looks like Starship Troopers stuff. Their rifles are spotlessly clean, and no Canadian ever pointed his muzzle at me in the chow hall. These are good troops. I get tired of people busting on them who have neve seen them.

first Photos

That trashed out barn is known as Big Hangar. I must have driven past it a thousand times. The aviation task force that preceded TF Storm, Diamondhead, used to use this building for Chinook maintenance.

1 posted on 01/28/2006 4:33:38 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4
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To: Clive; fanfan; NorthOf45; SandRat; archy; Calpernia; cavtrooper21; centurion316; colorado tanker; ..

ping


2 posted on 01/28/2006 4:43:59 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (If I drove a truck off a cliff and survived, Id probably go back to driving a truck again.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

" And seriously, mate, what genius came up with a ‘modular’ tactical vest that doesn’t allow the user to carry more than 4 magazines? "

Someone who is fashion conscious?
Probably the same guy who came up with the LBV I had!
Looked good, didn't work as well as hoped, held the bug repellant tubes well enough.


3 posted on 01/28/2006 5:08:38 PM PST by Darksheare (And baby says "RAAAAR!")
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Image hosted by Photobucket.comis it just me or do you think all the new cammo designs are geared more to City/Urban Fighting than open country/scrub&trees??? i'd love to see how it looks at 100-200yds... my only worry is that at range and out of the city, the small pattern will blend into a light or dark blob unlike the background.
and the tan cammo must look like ghosts walking around at night!!! light targets on a dark background and all since none of them are reversible.
4 posted on 01/28/2006 5:10:35 PM PST by Chode (American Hedonist )
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To: Darksheare

I was in the pistol belt and suspenders army. We carried our water in canteens. Christ had made buck sergeant by then.


5 posted on 01/28/2006 5:11:15 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (If I drove a truck off a cliff and survived, Id probably go back to driving a truck again.)
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To: Chode

At 100 yards the US DCU, USMC desert cammie and Canadian CADPAT AR are indistinguishable. All three patterns work extremely well in south east Afghanistan. IMHO the new ACU is inferior to those three in that environment.

There is a digital pattern for urban warfare, mostly gray, but I haven't seen any military wearing them.


6 posted on 01/28/2006 5:17:02 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (If I drove a truck off a cliff and survived, Id probably go back to driving a truck again.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

We had what amounted to a Harris assault vest.
Problem is, it didn't work as they intended it.
(Though the advance party types knew ways of making it passable..)

We were told to ditch it when some dumb[beep]sses got heat stroke at Fort Drum one year.

I got my hands on the H suspenders, which were nice.

Got told to ditch them as the 'Y' suspenders were 'superior' in the eyes of the Captain.
(They weren't, especially for someone my small size.)

But we figured a way of fitting three magazines in our ammo pouches, plus a further four in the vest.
For which we got our heads ripped off.(???!!!!)
Supposedly the extra weight of four extra magazines would 'slow us down'.
(I'm convinced my last Captain was on the side of the simulated OpFor during AT. I swear.)


7 posted on 01/28/2006 5:21:03 PM PST by Darksheare (And baby says "RAAAAR!")
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

Thanks for the ping FRiend. It's always good to hear the POV from someone in the service.


8 posted on 01/28/2006 5:22:49 PM PST by NorthOf45
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To: NorthOf45

I was there, and I was in the service, but not at the same time.


9 posted on 01/28/2006 5:29:02 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (If I drove a truck off a cliff and survived, Id probably go back to driving a truck again.)
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To: Darksheare

there was a time, when you could fit five twenty round mags in a canteencan cover... four covers 200 rounds. but then i haven't seen a 20round mag in 20years either.


10 posted on 01/28/2006 5:30:22 PM PST by Chode (American Hedonist )
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To: Chode

We used all three of our issue canteens.
So the covers were in use.
:(

The 2 quart canteen always was on our rucksack.
(No cover available for it. Drats.)


11 posted on 01/28/2006 5:57:36 PM PST by Darksheare (And baby says "RAAAAR!")
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

If Canada doesn't have working submarines, why do they keep claiming that the artic is their territory alone and no other nation's submarines are welcome via the northern passage? How ironic!


12 posted on 01/28/2006 5:58:52 PM PST by Pan_Yans Wife ("Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny. "--Aeschylus)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4; Great Dane; Alberta's Child; headsonpikes; coteblanche; Ryle; albertabound; ...

-


13 posted on 01/28/2006 6:12:33 PM PST by Clive
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To: Pan_Yans Wife
The Canadians claim a lot of land that is currently under snow and ice but is expected to thaw out exposing new terrain and creating navigable waterways between Canadian Arctic islands. Nuclear submarines are really the only subs that can operate long under the ice pack.

If and when the NorthWest Passage becomes navigable it will become a short cut from Asia to Europe and attract a lot of Chinese interest to the Canadian Arctic.

Probably the US Navy informs the Canadian Department of National Defense when they will be transiting Canadian waters, but that is all highly classified.

14 posted on 01/28/2006 6:22:21 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (If I drove a truck off a cliff and survived, Id probably go back to driving a truck again.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

I know for a fact that the US informs the Canadians when a mission is underway. The Canadians remain aloof and pretend they have no idea... but, that isn't to say that "sometimes" no one knows where the US subs are, and for good reason. The Canadians have the same arrangement with the British and the French.


15 posted on 01/28/2006 6:25:56 PM PST by Pan_Yans Wife ("Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny. "--Aeschylus)
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To: Pan_Yans Wife
We have 4 Victoria class diesel-electric (formerly Upholder class) this was the last non-nuke class used by the Brits and they were mothballed early in their service life because of the decision to go all nuke.

They are out of service now because of problems disclosed byt the fire aboard HMCS Chicoutimi during its voyage to Halifax from Scotland, but this is a temporary circumstance.

These vessels are quieter than the nukes and are more suitable for Canadian purposes than are the nukes (and I agree that the nukes are more suitable for US and UK purposes). The plan is to convert them to air independent propulsion (using a Canadian design) which will improve th.

BTW, a Spamisn trawler on illegally fishing with illegal nets on the Grand Banks got first-hand experience with the use of submarines for patrol purposes. He was observed and photographed and kept under observation until a surface vessel came up to make the arrest. The Spaniard was unaware that he was being observed until the surface vessel came over the horizon, at which point he cut his net. The submarine marked the location where the net was dropped and it was later recovered together with its illegal liner. It was taken to New York and hung on a derrick outside of the UN building for the world to see.

16 posted on 01/28/2006 6:36:34 PM PST by Clive
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Typo:

"The plan is to convert them to air independent propulsion (using a Canadian design) which will improve th.'

Should have read:
The plan is to convert them to air independent propulsion (using a Canadian design) which should improve their effectiveness for Arctic operations.

17 posted on 01/28/2006 6:40:18 PM PST by Clive
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To: Clive

Air propulsion sounds very interesting. I'm a little familiar with US nukes, cause husband served on two of them. Thank you for the info about the twraler, we'll look it up and read further.

BTW, are you still running a Zim pinglist? Can I be added, please?


18 posted on 01/28/2006 6:41:43 PM PST by Pan_Yans Wife ("Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny. "--Aeschylus)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

Cool!


19 posted on 01/28/2006 6:44:25 PM PST by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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To: Pan_Yans Wife
I am still running a Zim list, but I admit that I have been somewhat negligent about it lately. I will try to improve my diligence.

I have added you to my Zim ping list.

20 posted on 01/28/2006 6:47:47 PM PST by Clive
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

Yes, your posts are very insightful as well. I always look forward to reading your contributions.


21 posted on 01/28/2006 6:49:15 PM PST by NorthOf45
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To: Chode
but then i haven't seen a 20round mag in 20years either.

An old dog taught new tricks, courtesy of Brownell's:


22 posted on 01/28/2006 6:51:50 PM PST by 300winmag
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To: Clive

Many thanks.


23 posted on 01/28/2006 6:54:30 PM PST by Pan_Yans Wife ("Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny. "--Aeschylus)
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The G-Wagon gun-shield design was the brainchild of MWO Billy Bolen and Sgt Chris Thombs - both members of B Coy 3 PPCLI, serving with the PRT. -- Mark C.

It went from concept to deployed in less than two months, no contractors, bids, or government interference. -- GO!!!

24 posted on 01/28/2006 7:43:58 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (If I drove a truck off a cliff and survived, Id probably go back to driving a truck again.)
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To: fanfan
The Red & White
25 posted on 01/28/2006 7:56:08 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (If I drove a truck off a cliff and survived, Id probably go back to driving a truck again.)
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Close up of the gun shield.
26 posted on 01/28/2006 8:02:22 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (If I drove a truck off a cliff and survived, Id probably go back to driving a truck again.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

Only four magazines and grenades don’t fit the pouches? The idiot desk jockey responsible should be dropped off in a hot LZ.


27 posted on 01/29/2006 3:55:08 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Darksheare

It sounds like the Captain was more concerned with the by-the-book uniform appearance of his troops and not on successful mission accomplishment. If his troops all look pretty maybe he’ll make Major sooner?


28 posted on 01/29/2006 3:59:33 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

Nice ... I'll be posting this at Free Dominion.


29 posted on 01/29/2006 6:12:17 AM PST by NorthOf45
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To: GMMAC; Pikamax; Former Proud Canadian; Great Dane; Alberta's Child; headsonpikes; Ryle; ...

Canada Ping!

Please FReepmail me to get on or off this Canada ping list.


30 posted on 01/29/2006 7:21:29 AM PST by fanfan
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To: R. Scott; Cannoneer No. 4
"It sounds like the Captain was more concerned with the by-the-book uniform appearance of his troops and not on successful mission accomplishment. If his troops all look pretty maybe he’ll make Major sooner?"

Scott, Just what was it in the article that led you to that conclusion?

He speaks well of the arms and equipment which the infantry needs to do its job.

He speaks well of the effectiveness of the camo pattern, (also needed by the wearer to do his job) and points out that the pattern has been adopted by other forces including US forces.

He complains about design problems, including chest pockets that will not be reachable because they will be under the frag vest, the absence of arm pockets, grenade pockets too small for the grenades and insufficent designed provision to carry more than 4 magazines.

How does the article disclose "by-the-book uniform appearance" or a concern for getting promoted by having his troops "look pretty"?

Please read the article again.

31 posted on 01/29/2006 7:42:01 AM PST by Clive
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To: Clive
Scott, Just what was it in the article that led you to that conclusion?

Please read post #7 – that is the post I was commenting on.
32 posted on 01/29/2006 8:23:11 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: R. Scott; Darksheare
Mea culpa.

I have now read #7 and I agree.

I had jumped to the conclusion that the Captain to whom you were referring was Captain Dave, the author of the article.

You are right, the Captain referenced in #7 did not appear have his head screwed on right.

BTW: Darksheare, was that the 10th Mountain?

33 posted on 01/29/2006 8:49:43 AM PST by Clive
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To: Clive

No problem.


34 posted on 01/29/2006 9:25:27 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Clive; R. Scott

I was artillery, we had been attached to 10th mountain until late 1996/ early 1997 when we ended up with 27th Brigade NY division.
And yes, the Captain I had was more concerned with dog and pony shows than performance.
Thankfully he is no longer Cap there.
We'd 'lost' our previous Captain to an open slot with Headqurters, got the Captain who liked gimping us, and promptly got 'killed' several times over during annual training.


35 posted on 01/29/2006 10:38:25 AM PST by Darksheare (And baby says "RAAAAR!")
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To: Darksheare
…got the Captain who liked gimping us, and promptly got 'killed' several times over during annual training.

Did he learn anything?
36 posted on 01/29/2006 11:47:29 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: R. Scott

Besides how to make us look uniformly pretty and dead?
Not especially.
He got into a "Mine's bigger than yours is" match with Headquarters one fine day, got us declared dead and stuck in checkfire for three days.
Nothing worse for artilleryman than to have a bunch of ammo and nothing to do with it.

What made it worse was that the previous Captain was a "If it works and works well, do it" type.


37 posted on 01/29/2006 11:53:52 AM PST by Darksheare (And baby says "RAAAAR!")
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To: Darksheare

Bookmarked for further research.


38 posted on 01/29/2006 12:03:22 PM PST by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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To: Ciexyz

LOL
Thanks.


39 posted on 01/29/2006 12:07:52 PM PST by Darksheare (And baby says "RAAAAR!")
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To: Darksheare
Nothing worse for artilleryman than to have a bunch of ammo and nothing to do with it.

Way back when I was working in support of National Guard summer training. An 81 mm mortar unit set up for their first fire mission. Most of the officers on the post were impressed with their great looks – starched fatigues, spit shined boots and close hair cuts.
They somehow set up 180 out. The first rounds hit the NCO club. Fortunately they weren’t fused either. The CO was relieved and the men spent the rest of the week on police call.
They were not happy.
40 posted on 01/29/2006 12:17:09 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: R. Scott

Yowch.
We'd set up 180 out once [1600 mils out], but didn't have any fire missions until the next day.
Come first light, we all scratched our heads and said, "Aren't we facing the wrong way?"

From there we set up in a nice sand pit, and actually got something done.

We had contact with the opfor team.
After a couple shots, everyone is out of ammo.
Captain starts yelling at us.
My wiseguy response: "Yes sir, we WERE issued four magazines, but only 20 total blank rounds per soldier."

We also once left a troop behind by himself.
We were checking out an area, and the Captain tells the guy pulling Air Guard duty to dismount the vehicle.
Since I was out in the middle of the field we were checking out, I wasn't aware of this.
So we come bustling out of the field due to the neighbors being there, hop in the vehicles and head to the next position.

We get to our destination, I look for our machinegunner.. and then go "where is he?"

I then get told that somehow it is my fault the guy got left behind.


41 posted on 01/29/2006 12:30:20 PM PST by Darksheare (And baby says "RAAAAR!")
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To: Darksheare
Ah! The mistakes we’ve seen!

I then get told that somehow it is my fault the guy got left behind.

Who was supposed to do the headcount? You know the Captain is never at fault.
42 posted on 01/29/2006 1:56:57 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Darksheare

Splendid links in this article.


43 posted on 01/29/2006 6:26:45 PM PST by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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To: Chode

TACPATT

44 posted on 01/29/2006 8:42:21 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (There are only two types of ships, submarines and targets.)
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To: Clive; fanfan; NorthOf45
Pages 16, 17, 18, 32 & 34, Soldier of Fortune magazine, March 2006

Afghan Patrol

With Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry

Peacekeepers Help Make Kabul Safe For Democracy

Text & Photos by

Warrant Officer Tracy Sapera

After receiving detailed orders and conducting rehearsals, we mounted up in our Light Armoured Vehicles or LAVIIIs. Dressed in our new digital-style Canadian Pattern, (cad-pat) combat clothing for desert operations, we wore our armoured vest with chest and back plates, load-bearing vest, (LBV) for carrying our rifle magazines and other essential equipment, and Kevlar helmet with a Mounted Monocular Night Vision Goggle (MNVG) for observing in the dark. We carried our heavy-barrel C8 [M16A2] rifle with infra-red, (IR) pointer and SureFire flashlight, both mounted on a rail system. We also had two C9 [M249 SAW] gunners with us as we depart Camp Julien.

45 posted on 01/29/2006 9:04:40 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (There are only two types of ships, submarines and targets.)
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To: Ciexyz

Yeah.
They're makin' me somewhat jealous.
I see some of the gear and think, "If we'd had that in my old unit.."


46 posted on 01/29/2006 9:56:41 PM PST by Darksheare (And baby says "RAAAAR!")
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To: R. Scott

The guy who was supposed to do the headcount was the Gunny.
I asked if we had everyone, got told to shutup, and that we indeed had everyone.
(oops!)


So we were down by one guy, and one machinegun.
(I'd have loved to have the updated -249 from the article links!)


47 posted on 01/29/2006 10:34:05 PM PST by Darksheare (And baby says "RAAAAR!")
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To: Darksheare
The guy who was supposed to do the headcount was the Gunny.

And yet – it was your fault! Sounds like maybe you were on the CO’s “S” list. Been there – done that.
48 posted on 01/30/2006 2:28:03 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
kool, thankx... it looks almost like the old German Leopard or OakLeaf pattern from a distance.

to these old eyes, small pattern cammo works great up close(0-50yds)but at range it sometimes looks like a solid mass since the small pattern blends together to form one large pattern.

large pattern cammo doesn't always work so good up close but at range blends in very well.

that's why i thought the new stuff might be designed more toward urban fighting where most engagements are relatively up close and personal.
49 posted on 01/30/2006 9:04:05 AM PST by Chode (American Hedonist )
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To: Clive
He speaks well of the effectiveness of the camo pattern, (also needed by the wearer to do his job) and points out that the pattern has been adopted by other forces including US forces.

Are they fireproof/fire resistant/fire retardant?

Having once exited the ramp of a CH47 $hithook and peeled off to the side where the engine exhaust set my yowie suit on fire, I'm more than a little curious. [Since my camo suit was based on an oversize helo pilot's Nomex flight suit turned inside out, I suffered only minor discomfort, aside from that to my dignity which was mortally wounded by laughture and requests by my pals to do it again once they'd pulled their cameras out of their rucks.]

Anyway, mech/heloborne troops really do need Nomex or other fireproof outfits.

50 posted on 01/30/2006 9:45:21 AM PST by archy (The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
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