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LETS GO AFTER THOSE THAT HIRE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS
3/28/06 | BOB HARAN

Posted on 03/29/2006 1:59:58 AM PST by Bob Haran

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To: muawiyah

I've been giving this some thought, I may be being unfair. These Americans of healthy body and mind on welfare may want to work. They just need $15 an hour, and they need not to have to relocate or go through any other hardship or discomfit in order to do so.

The solution is NEVER mentioned!


101 posted on 03/29/2006 5:00:30 AM PST by HankReardon
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To: ovrtaxt

That's why I suggest that he (she?) change the screen name.

You are right, of course. The FairTax would solve a lot of problems in this country and do more to restore liberty to this country than even the repeal of all of the gun laws now on the books.


102 posted on 03/29/2006 5:02:18 AM PST by Badray
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To: Always Right

Yes there are. Like I said, the market would look different, but it would be fine.

The overall population would be lower, but so would the overhead in government assistance and health care. All this illegal workforce does, in the end, is ensure the present level for government assistance. More working Americans, less big brother.

THAT'S the true agenda at work here.


103 posted on 03/29/2006 5:04:11 AM PST by ovrtaxt (Join the FR folding team!! http://vspx27.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=teampage&teamnum=36120)
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To: Badray

Agreed. Taxing income is the economic equivalent of gun control. It limits the private sector's ability to exercise power.


104 posted on 03/29/2006 5:05:58 AM PST by ovrtaxt (Join the FR folding team!! http://vspx27.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=teampage&teamnum=36120)
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To: MojoWire
"Even if we cut off legal means to earn a living, illegals would simply join the underground economy, just like millions are already doing now."

A federal law making it a crime to employ an illegal shouldn't, and I expect wouldn't have any exemption for those who employ people by paying them "under the table."

Federal prison time would be a pretty discouraging threat to someone who is trying to save a few bucks an hour by hiring an illegal over paying a US citizen.

But certainly, if making it a crime to work as an illegal would get the illegals to leave the US, I'd be an advocate of that, too. My fear is that such a law would turn US penitentiaries into housing facilities for millions of illegals and become an expense we can't handle.

Maybe, instead of jailing them, we could find another form of punishment that would be more intimidating...
105 posted on 03/29/2006 5:07:46 AM PST by RavenATB (Patton was right...)
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To: Badray; muawiyah; Always Right; HankReardon
Look at these pics.
106 posted on 03/29/2006 5:11:22 AM PST by ovrtaxt (Join the FR folding team!! http://vspx27.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=teampage&teamnum=36120)
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To: RavenATB

mmmmm, I have an idea. maybe if we quit feeding and providing for Americans who do not want to work they may magically become willing to do the "jobs Americans will not do". This would drastically lessen the influx of illegals, just a thought.

Bye all, I must go to work now.


107 posted on 03/29/2006 5:12:55 AM PST by HankReardon
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To: Cinnamon

The IRS use business owners all the time for tax collectors, why not make them law enforcement on illegal
immigrants also?


108 posted on 03/29/2006 5:12:58 AM PST by buck61
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To: Always Right

Always Right - your way only works if we NEVER enforce the law. A dose of Common Sense is needed.

If we pass any kind of law (or better yet enforce what we already have), the illegal worker will now be documented.

So here it goes. Construction Co. A now is hiring documented Workers. Co. A now has to abide by tax and Workers Comp laws. Co. B starts up and says in order for me to get new business I need to be even more competitive. So the hay with the new Immigration Law, I'll hire ILLEGAL workers because everything is off the books and I can avoid pesky Fed Govt/State/Local law/taxes/workers codes, etc.

How about from the Illegal's point of view. Why should he follow the law and now be required to pay even a small income tax or at least FICA? Heck, I'll stay undocumentated and pocket the extra $50 or 100 a month.

Well that would be bad advice Mr Alien, we now have new laws on the books that will make you illegal and you will be fined and/or deported. Si, he says, HA HA HA. Because you and your Govt have been so vigilant in the past enforcing laws.

I'll pass, he says, and take my chances the way it's always been done. And God forbid you and your govt ever do get tough, we'll get the Local/National Spanish DJs and News to spread the word that our American Dream is being negated and we'll march in the millions and scream racism.

Finis.


109 posted on 03/29/2006 5:23:57 AM PST by roofgoat
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To: Bob Haran

A far greater problem may arise when the 12 million illegals are forced out of work and are no longer provided the Socialist welfare system they have grow use to receiving. Anyone who thinks they'll just pack up and go home, better look at what's been going on in Europe. The war we have all feared would come to our soil, will commence.


110 posted on 03/29/2006 5:26:39 AM PST by wolfcreek
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To: ovrtaxt
Yes there are. Like I said, the market would look different, but it would be fine.

Riiiiight. There are millions of workers just dying to pick fruit and do gardening and do roofing. The only guy I can get to do yard work is a guy who just got out of jail for DUI, can't drive, doesn't own a cell phone, but can get hired for $50K per year because no one else works as hard as he does. I hire people, I know how hard it is to find people, and i pay quite a bit more than most people. There are not people out willing to do hard labor, period.

111 posted on 03/29/2006 5:46:08 AM PST by Always Right
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To: roofgoat
So the hay with the new Immigration Law, I'll hire ILLEGAL workers because everything is off the books and I can avoid pesky Fed Govt/State/Local law/taxes/workers codes, etc

Not true. If there was a way to legally hire these workers, the vast majority would. This isn't so about saving money and avoiding regulations, it is about getting the job done. Certainly there will always be those out there to scam the system and make a few extra bucks, but that is a small minority. Businesses need willing and able bodies willing to do hard labor. That labor is not available using only American citizens despite what anti-immigration folks may say.

112 posted on 03/29/2006 5:54:24 AM PST by Always Right
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To: SUSSA
If we cut off tax paid services to illegals, the rest would go home too.

Quite frankly, that is our greatest argument against the illegals. In Texas, the illegals have dominated the school systems so that our massive property taxes are used to buy the school districts professional-styled sports arenas and provide gold plated taj mahal environments to people who choose to live 12 people per apartment.

Watching hospital after hospital close, along with watching food banks empty, along with more of this crap where the Mexicans demand more services and entitlements than even a Katrina "Where's Mine" scam-artist, we will get tired of paying the tax and will say "No" to the next bond election. Otherwise those within the gated communities will only experience the effects of The Invasion when their lawns are mowed, the pools maintained, and the furniture dusted.

For years I’ve been saying we should use the RICO law on criminal employers

The Legal Community will kiss your feet at this proposal since it means that if the options are "lose everything" in RICO forfeiture, or huge tax-deductable legal fees, these "corporate big wigs" will choose the latter and will keep the courts (that you pay for) tied up settling these claims. I don't see great motivation in prosecutors to win these cases either. Probably plenty of out-of-court settlements so there won't be this psychological impact that you are planning on.

Enforcement on the employers, I believe is the correct way to handle this. Quite frankly the argument against enforcement is silly. We are talking "government" here. A corrupt, lazy, incompetent government made up mostly of college trained Marxist liberals who are in government to "make a change". What this translates into is that you will have token prosecutions in token industries. These industries will be targetted purely on politics so that high profile companies like Walmart will get papered while the Avacado growers will be ignored. If the illegals being dragged out are Korean woman from nail salons and others that will solicite great sorrow and compasion when played in the media before the naive public, then those industries will get hit.

The beauty of the "enforce the current laws" deal is that it is completely impossible to do an overnight "bust" so union politics can come into play here. For instance the construction workers unions can hit non-union shops that hire illegals - that has political possibilities. But who in the world is going to sic the hounds of justice on the tomato growers? Answer, no one, so they will experience a de facto amnesty without the political fallout.

113 posted on 03/29/2006 6:04:34 AM PST by Shomer (More Great News and Insights From The Blue Bird of F'ing Joy)
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To: HankReardon
"mmmmm, I have an idea. maybe if we quit feeding and providing for Americans who do not want to work they may magically become willing to do the "jobs Americans will not do". This would drastically lessen the influx of illegals, just a thought."

Well, I suspect that there's some truth in that. However, with illegals being willing to live 20-30 in a small house in quasi-commune style living, they're willing to work for wages that most Americans wouldn't accept. As long as they're here and willing to work hard for low wages there will be a lot of downward pressure on wages for unskilled labor.
114 posted on 03/29/2006 6:10:51 AM PST by RavenATB (Patton was right...)
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To: ovrtaxt
"it's as if Americans aren't capable of doing this"

Exactly. The reason that most employers want illegals is because they are paying below minimum wages - under the table. Making them "legal" is not going to help anything. Just more illegals will come across and work for the crappy wage.
115 posted on 03/29/2006 6:21:53 AM PST by gopheraj
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To: Always Right

Always Right

I guess we'll just disagree then. I do not trust business owners that much anymore. Just personal observation. I hate to use such a broad brush but in the name of the Free Market today, a business owner can justify most anything and sleep well. If he can get away with it.


116 posted on 03/29/2006 6:52:21 AM PST by roofgoat
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To: Shomer

Shomer, that last post was very well written. Great thoughts.


117 posted on 03/29/2006 6:57:28 AM PST by roofgoat
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To: gopheraj
Exactly. The reason that most employers want illegals is because they are paying below minimum wages - under the table. Making them "legal" is not going to help anything. Just more illegals will come across and work for the crappy wage.

You would be shocked to know just how much illegals are earning. It certainly is not a crappy wage.

118 posted on 03/29/2006 7:25:59 AM PST by Always Right
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To: Always Right

Oh don't I know it! The ones who are working construction, for the road crews, working as welders etc are certainly not making low wages. The only ones are the ones who are in the AC places - restaurants etc. But then again, those jobs never paid much anyway.


119 posted on 03/29/2006 7:55:35 AM PST by gopheraj
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To: ovrtaxt

Ecellent analogy.


120 posted on 03/29/2006 8:17:26 AM PST by Badray
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To: ovrtaxt

Jorge Bush's legacy will be a bigger stain than the one that clinton left on Monica's dress.


121 posted on 03/29/2006 8:19:45 AM PST by Badray
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To: Always Right

Are you hiring illegal aliens in your business? You can be honest. It's just between us.

Is that where you get your $10 to $20 per hour figure?


122 posted on 03/29/2006 8:23:49 AM PST by Badray
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To: Badray
Are you hiring illegal aliens in your business? You can be honest. It's just between us.

Nope. There aren't many illegals available in Indiana, at least outside of Indianapolis which may have more.

123 posted on 03/29/2006 8:29:42 AM PST by Always Right
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To: Always Right

Since you have no personal knowledge, where do you get this $10 to $20 per hour figure?

Everything I hear is that they are working dirt cheap.


124 posted on 03/29/2006 9:31:44 AM PST by Badray
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To: Badray
Since you have no personal knowledge, where do you get this $10 to $20 per hour figure? Everything I hear is that they are working dirt cheap.

I know hispanic workers who work with illegals. One who is legal hires illegals crews and works on jobs in the south. They charge the going rate and can easily make over $20 per hour.

125 posted on 03/29/2006 10:13:18 AM PST by Always Right
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To: Bob Haran

While we're at it let's go after Fox for pushing this invasion on us?


126 posted on 03/29/2006 12:52:17 PM PST by rfreedom4u (Native Texan)
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To: Las Vegas Dave

I believe the government gives money to "migrant workers" who are out of work.


127 posted on 03/29/2006 12:53:08 PM PST by rfreedom4u (Native Texan)
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To: Bob Haran

"Why don't we make the people responsible for causing people to enter our country illegally, felons?"

Good idea. Put away the fly paper and the flies won't stick to it...


128 posted on 03/29/2006 1:36:19 PM PST by Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin
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To: Bob Haran

Congress aren't going to do anything other than make a pronouncement of total AMNESTY. I am done with trying to influence anyone outside of my state.


129 posted on 03/29/2006 2:52:30 PM PST by p23185
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To: Always Right

I'd have to see something more solid than some hearsay. I might believe the boss is charging $20/hour, but I doubt that the illegals themselves are seeing that.


130 posted on 03/29/2006 4:15:46 PM PST by Badray
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To: Bob Haran

Yep. This is the most effective measure possible. Huge fines and a felony charge against employers of illegals.


131 posted on 03/29/2006 5:23:43 PM PST by Mogollon
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To: Californiajones
There is a website called www.wehirealiens.com. It is kind of a 'homegrown' type of thing where there is a list, by state , of organizations/companies employing illegals.

I have made a personal commitment to avoid local companies that hire illegals.

132 posted on 03/29/2006 5:24:02 PM PST by Tarheel
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To: Dane

You may well despise machinery, but it freed African-Americans from centuries of picking cotton by hand.


133 posted on 03/29/2006 5:26:43 PM PST by muawiyah (-)
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To: Always Right
Hardly arbitrary ~ in fact, it's a moral question. You really have to ask yourself why a Mexican national should get a preference on entry into the United States when more highly educated and hard working folks from other countries have to abide by the slightest jot and tittle in the law.

Frankly, I see no reason to prefer Mexicans over others.

134 posted on 03/29/2006 5:30:02 PM PST by muawiyah (-)
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To: HankReardon
If the "living wage" is $15 per hour (for a normal life in our society), and business only pays $8 per hour, then who will take the job?

And, more importantly, why should that particular businesslady be allowed to reap the benefits of that pay differential ~ why isn't it given to me to put in my pocket? Certainly I am as deserving of it as she is.

When we examine the equity in the system, it seems to me that business should not expect a government subsidy, nor hot and cold running illegal aliens, in a competitive system. Rather, business should compete fairly, within the law.

135 posted on 03/29/2006 5:35:13 PM PST by muawiyah (-)
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To: Always Right

I am in a metro area of NC. Here illegal roofers are getting $56 per day =$7 per hour. An American/ or legal roofer is getting $15-$19 per hour. The figures are from a friend who is in the gutter and downspout business.


136 posted on 03/29/2006 5:35:49 PM PST by Tarheel
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To: RavenATB
A thought ~ (brought this up yesterday but no one bit on it) ~ we probably need a very large "holding tank" for the millions of illegals. There are some adjacent Mexican states that are not as populated as they could be.

A couple of divisions could move in and take them in a day or two.

Once we acquired control of those portions of Mexico, it would certainly be fair to dump all the illegals there.

We probably ought to seize their Gulf oil fields too to help us defray the costs of all of this.

137 posted on 03/29/2006 5:38:39 PM PST by muawiyah (-)
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To: Timeout
Many are ignoring the problem of forged documents. I was an employer in California until 12 years ago. I was virtually certain I had illegals on my payroll, but they had "green cards".
Perhaps things have changed since then. (Is there now a system for an employer to check for forged credentials?). But I suspect it's gotten harder, not easier.

Unless the IRS tells you that their SS number is wrong there is no cheap or easy way to know.

You can run background checks on all your current employees. At about $200.00 a pop that can get pricey. Even then there is no guarantee as the paperwork may be valid but not theirs.

It is one thing if you are flouting the law and another if you have take reasonable steps and get snookered.

138 posted on 03/29/2006 5:41:04 PM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Romantics and pessimists are two sides of the same coin. Both will happily lead you over the cliff)
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To: Always Right
There were a good 1,500 in Jackson county alone ~ and most have relocated to the Gulf Coast where they can make more money in reconstruction of New Orleans, etc.

Here's the deal ~ you get little scrawny guys from Souvr'n Mexico getting a job in Indiana ~ a good job too since they're not getting cheated.

Next thing you know they've got enough money to bring in the new wife, and here she comes ~ a beauty queen ~ the kind of girl that guy would never SEE, to say nothing of MEET, or MARRY, if he didn't have the kind of income he has in Indiana.

There's a lot more benefit to the illegal male than always meets the eye, but a trip to the Seymour Wal-Mart, over near the tomatilla counter on Saturday afternoon ought to clarify the situation.

139 posted on 03/29/2006 5:46:11 PM PST by muawiyah (-)
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To: Bob Haran

I have been repeating this over and over... Let's go after the businesses for tax evasion. Once the illegals have no jobs their own families will send them home.

Si Se Puede!!! Stop the hiring of illegals!!! Si Se Puede!!!Si Se Puede!!!


140 posted on 03/29/2006 5:57:01 PM PST by Porterville (Sure are a lot of these few Muslim Extremist Fanatics)
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To: Bob Haran

*


141 posted on 03/29/2006 5:58:26 PM PST by Porterville (Si Se Puede!!! We can stop businesses hiring illegals!!! Si Se Puede!!!)
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To: muawiyah

What is a "living wage"? how much a person has to make to acquire everything they want? Or is it how much a person has to make to being able to provide for themselves what they need. $15.00 an hour! my, oh my! That's a lot of money!


142 posted on 03/30/2006 3:14:53 AM PST by HankReardon
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To: RavenATB

A hungry belly is a great motivator. You'd be surprised what Americans would be "willing" to do when they have their hand outs cut back.

It's not that they are not "willing", they don't have to! These illegals do not live 15-20 people in a house because they like it that way.


143 posted on 03/30/2006 3:18:23 AM PST by HankReardon
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To: HankReardon
"It's not that they are not "willing", they don't have to! These illegals do not live 15-20 people in a house because they like it that way."

Understand your point. They are, however, here illegally. Breaking the law should not be the start of anyone's US citizenship. If you cut off their chance of employment, and cut off their access to taxpayer-funded social services, the vast majority will leave on their own. Which, in my opinion, is exactly what should happen.

There are two main drawing cards leading illegals to come to the US: employment opportunity and social services like welfare, medical care, and public education. Those two "draws" need to be eliminated.

If we want to set up a process for speedy immigration with work visas, let them re-apply (if they ever applied) and selectively allow a limited number of the best candidates for US citizenship back in.
144 posted on 03/30/2006 3:30:58 AM PST by RavenATB (Patton was right...)
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To: RavenATB

You are correct. The illegal immigrants are merely a symptom of the problem which is the welfare state and the mind set of our spoiled "poor".


145 posted on 03/30/2006 4:00:45 AM PST by HankReardon
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To: HankReardon
The 'free' (God, I hate that word) medical care is a huge draw for them as well.

TANSTAAFL.

L

146 posted on 03/30/2006 4:04:30 AM PST by Lurker (In God I trust. Everyone else shows me their hands.)
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To: Shomer
The Legal Community will kiss your feet at this proposal since it means that if the options are "lose everything" in RICO forfeiture, or huge tax-deductable legal fees, these "corporate big wigs" will choose the latter and will keep the courts (that you pay for) tied up settling these claims. I don't see great motivation in prosecutors to win these cases either. Probably plenty of out-of-court settlements so there won't be this psychological impact that you are planning on.

You misread RICO. Under RICO the defendant’s assets are forfeited when the charge is filed and the warrant is signed. The defendant doesn’t have to be convicted or even have a trial date. The defendant has to petition the court to allow him access to enough of the forfeited assets to hire a lawyer. The judge says how much of his money he may use and the judge appoints someone to see that all funds withdrawn are used only for the defense of the case.

Also, avoiding jail on the underlying charge does not release the seized assets. Under RICO a defendant must prove that the funds are not the fruit of an illegal act. That’s almost impossible to do because money is fungible.

The Supreme Court has already ruled that competitors of the criminal businesses that employ illegal immigrants can be sued under the civil section of RICO because their criminal activity makes them a corrupt organization under the definition in the law. There is no reason to think they would not uphold criminal charges.

As for incentive to prosecute, aside from keeping their jobs if ordered to do it, is the fact that the forfeited assets do not go into the general fund. They go to the cops, and prosecutors for more enforcement, equipment, employees, etc. There’s plenty of incentive. All we need is an administration willing to do their duty and enforce the law.

147 posted on 03/30/2006 11:36:28 AM PST by SUSSA
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To: Lurker

agreed. If you think health care is expensive now just wait and see how much it costs when it's "free".


148 posted on 03/31/2006 3:27:00 AM PST by HankReardon
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To: Bob Haran; All
Good idea. Here is something we can do right away.

DOUG from Upland started with this thread U.S. BORDER PATROL: Turn In Illegal Aliens (and employers, followed by this one U.S. BORDER CONTROL Turn in illegal aliens

Go to either thread for more details on what to do. The TOLL FREE number to report ILLEGAL aliens or those employing ILLEGAL aliens to ICE is: 866-347-2423

How it works:

You are not required to provide your identity to ICE. All that is necessary to request an investigation by ICE is mere suspicion of any activity by ILLEGAL aliens.

ICE and the IRS are especially interested in "visiting" those businesses that employ ILLEGALS "off the books" to avoid the payment of payroll taxes.

Latinos Plan Nationwide Worker Strike

I suggest looking around and see if you might spot a suspect. At work, at school, at a job sight, Micky D's, Store etc.

On the day(current plan is May 1) of this march check to see if you can determine if someone took the day off. Confirming grounds for suspicion.

Then MAKE THE CALL
Again the number is
866-347-2423

:) Easy Does It

149 posted on 03/31/2006 3:47:12 AM PST by eazdzit (Vote AGAINST All NWO PuboCrats !! DO NOT re-elect the least of two evils!!!)
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To: Bob Haran

Good post.

We don't need any new laws. We need enforcement of laws already on the books. Throw a half dozen top CEOs in jail and hit their companies with staggering fines, and watch the chain reaction follow.

If we are going to have to support Mexico, we ought to be running it. Why is there prosperity north of the Rio Grande, and terrible south of it? Because the US and Canada were not founded by a patrician culture that still runs the country through blood lines that can be traced back to Spanish royalty. It's a caste society, and it is never going anywhere.

Let's hire the 12 million illegals to help conquer Mexico, get rid of the corruption that runs Mexico, and make it the 51st state. Then they'd all be back in Mexico, and the US could turn that country around in a decade. They have so many resources, but the country is dead because its corrupt through and through.


150 posted on 04/02/2006 8:20:00 PM PDT by David Allen
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