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24 Observations on the Intelligent Design versus Macro Evolution debate
patsullivan.com/blog ^ | June 28, 2007 | Pat Sullivan

Posted on 07/07/2007 12:58:27 AM PDT by MatthewTan

24 Observations on the Intelligent Design versus Macro Evolution debate

I kicked off quite a firestorm with my recent post on Marketing Darwin. The blogger Orac picked it up, shredded it to pieces, which led to dozens of comments at my blog and his. Smelling fresh blood, Professor PZ Meyers takes me to task, and more comments ensue. Basically, I get trashed really badly. Thank goodness I am secure in my old age! :)

I find it all interesting. Many of the commenters raise some really good points, and I agree with some of them. Many though seem to deliberately misunderstand me, and then trash the misunderstanding. I only spent about 15 minutes writing Marketing Darwin but would have taken more time to clarify myself if I'd known how it was going to be used.

So I thought I would write another post, this post, partially in answer to some of those comments. I don’t expect to change the minds of my critics. But I do hope that some of you reading this will gain insight into what has been going on for at least the past 10 years or so with the advent of the Intelligent Design versus Macro Evolution debate among scientists.

First, I am definitely not a schooled scientist, though I love science and always have, especially biological science. In grade school, I did a science project that analyzed specific amino acids lost in the production of commercial cereals like Corn Chex, Cheerios, and Rice Crispies. I used two-dimensional paper chromatography to do the analysis. I entered my project into the Illinois state science competition and won a top award. My mom probably still has the newspaper clipping and my trophy somewhere. ;-)

And even though I majored in Business Marketing, almost every elective course I took in college was a science course.

Later, the search for "puzzle pieces" regarding my health issues forced me to learn as much as I could about biology and the human body. So I am a fan of science, both by interest and by need. I claim no high level of knowledge in any scientific discipline. I am a lay observer who has used everything I've learned to recover from 30 years of debilitating chronic conditions. Through my own study and observation, I have developed opinions and I like to write about those things.

I was introduced to Intelligent Design (ID) ten years ago by happening on to Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe. I actually exchanged a few emails with him shortly after the introduction of his book. I had a few questions which he cordially answered. So I have followed the usually angry debate regarding ID vs Macro Evolution.

I now have read Behe’s new book, The Edge of Evolution, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I found it even more compelling than his first book. As much as the evolutionists rail on him, it is obvious that he is NOT a stupid man. His grasp of current evolutionary thought seems obvious. He acknowledges that evolution has clearly taken place in at least a micro way. His observations about known data and theories seem very well argued, thoughtful, respectful.

I realize that everything I write here will likely be trashed and treated with disdain by the evolutionists who simply despise anything even remotely friendly to ID thinking. I accept that my views are opposed to current scientific consensus. And I would like to make sense of the angry struggle between IDers and evolutionists.

So in no particular order, I offer a list of my impressions and observations of the debate.

1. It seems fairly customary for evolutionists to attack the person and motivation of trained scientists who support ID. Often they use "IDiots" as a way of addressing them. With exceptions, they rarely attack the ideas, observations of the ID scientists. The suggestions of some who debate ID scientists actually instruct to attack the ID scientist as a religious/creationist fanatic. They attack the person. This is unfortunate and lends nothing to the debate.

2. Macro Evolutionists/Darwinists claim that ID is simply NOT science. They claim that since ID scientists point to a "designer" they are stupid and not scientists. Any conclusion of a "designer" immediately discredits all their observations since "science" by definition and presupposition, CANNOT have anything but a natural explanation. It cannot have a "designer." The evidence and conclusions MUST point to naturalistic explanations so a designer always, absolutely is rejected regardless of any strength and logic of the ID observation.

3. Evolutionists conveniently equate Intelligent Design with Creationism. This gives them a much easier target to attack. This straw man label allows them to denigrate the ID scientists ad nauseum without having to deal with their ideas. They use this attack ruthlessly. It allows them to call the ID scientists ugly names. Without hesitation, they readily and conveniently ignore the fact that virtually all ID scientists are clearly not creationists.

4. Macro Evolutionists virtually always dismiss (usually with angry disdain) ID as "religion." My reading and study doesn't prove out any hard core ID religiosity. I have read fundamentalist, creationist literature in my past. The difference between the two are night and day. Not even close! Simply because ID is partially congenial to the religionist's views, does not mean that ID is religious. In fact, ID does NOT support some very precious views held by creationists -- a young earth being one of them; and DOES support some very loathed ones -- Common Descent and Random Mutation being two. ID is no great friend to creationism. In fact, creationists like Henry Morris have consistently rejected ID. To say that ID is merely religion or creationism is a cop out to totally disregard the contrarian views of some pretty smart guys.

5. ID scientists present their ideas and conclusions at GREAT personal peril and cost. They risk jobs, future tenure, salary decreases, potential for grant money, ridicule from every side, disrespect, advancement within their fields at universities and scientific organizations of every type and access to peer review publishing. Whatever you might think about their ideas, one ought to recognize the courage it takes to go against the grain of consensus. It does not make them right, just brave. If they could be called "fools", it's not for their ideas, but for the great risk they assume.

6. If a God actually did create the earth at some point in time, it seems evolutionists could/would NEVER discover this fact. Their pre-suppositions and definitions of science disallow this knowledge. It simply cannot be true, even if it was. What if there actually were a designer? What if God or some intelligent being did, long ago deposit RNA or DNA on earth and let it run it's course. To automatically EXCLUDE any reasoned conclusion on the basis of a biased presupposition seems to me to be anti-science. I find it surprising to reject a very real possibility at the outset of an investigation.

7. Opponents to ID ALWAYS look for one statement, one concept, one observation and seek to destroy it and then reject with disdain all other observations. This is an effective method of debate. But it is NOT science. It seems with evolutionists there is a double standard in regard to truth. If ID questions something in evolutionary thought it is ridiculed by the evolutionists. If even the smallest detail is found to be wrong in ID thought, ALL ID thought is rejected and ridiculed. All it takes is one small alleged or real error. ID has to be 100% correct, 100% of the time. But it is quite alright for evolutionists to regularly change, alter, modify, suggest and explain differently their observations and theories. Or to simply say, "We don't have an exact answer for that as of right now, but we will discover the reason in the future and macro evolution will still be true."

8. It seems when an evolutionist uses conjecture to imagine and suggest how some machine, molecule, system etc. MIGHT have arisen, this imagination is often treated by other evolutionists as newly, proven fact. If the suggestion is in someway rational and at least potentially rebutts any well reasoned ID observation, the new conclusion is ALWAYS accepted and the ID observation is ALWAYS rejected no matter the strength of the two observations. Again, the evolutionist’s reasoned conclusion must always be right because anyone ID is "not a scientist, religious, and stupid."

9. I often sense that evolutionist's beliefs are more akin to the beliefs of religious fundamentalists, than IDers. Let me explain. Creationists START with the belief that creation happened because "the Bible says so." They then force fit everything to their view. Evolutionists START with the belief that evolution is true because their starting definition of science says so. Their definition of science totally excludes all non-natural, materialistic conclusions. They force fit any new discovery or reasoned conclusion into their belief system. Both religionists and evolutionists hold to their beliefs dogmatically, always denigrating anyone who dares to disagree with them. Civility and tolerance are traits neither group hold, except towards their own.

10. It seems evolutionist attacks on alleged religious bias denies the evolutionist's own religious bias. Common is the disdain for all religious belief, especially Judeo-Christian belief. While claiming total objectivity it seems convenient that evolution often fits the desired beliefs evolutionists hold or wish to hold. With evolution they can readily set aside any religious requirements they wish. If there is no God, there is no responsibility to that God. That is not to say that all evolutionists are immoral or unethical. But they have no overriding need to be moral or ethical because there is no supreme Justice, only karma.

Of course this does not mean the opposite is true either. All religious people are not all moral and ethical. Unethical and immoral people (even evil in a secular sense) are readily found in all belief systems: Christians who murder abortion doctors, Muslims who chop off the heads of infidels, Nazis who slaughter Jews, etc.

What I'm saying is this, I don’t buy the supposed total objectivity of the evolutionist. Everyone brings bias to their arguments, conscious or unconscious, and bias in and of itself is not wrong -- hidden bias is what's wrong.

11. Behe and other ID scientists are NOT stupid people to be easily dismissed. Neither are evolutionists. Both are highly trained, very smart people. I believe that both sides strongly and honestly believe the positions they hold are well reasoned, evident, and obvious. Both seem to believe they are being intellectually honest, yet it seems to me that the evolutionists would do themselves well to be more civil in the way they try to deal with the honest ID arguments. "Honest men can disagree." Whoever is able to yell the loudest should not decide the fate of the debate.

12. My own personal experience was this. I essentially became an agnostic during high school (a Catholic, all boys school) and even more so in college in the early 70s. Evolution was the basis for my rejection of religious belief, but mostly because it allowed me to justify behavior that previously would have produced guilt.

After a course in beginning biology, where the entire presupposition and teaching was Darwinian evolution, I found myself intellectually dissatisfied with evolutionary theory. It just didn't impress me. That did not make it untrue or true. I am just saying after spending a semester learning about it, I was not impressed in spite of my bias to want to believe it was true.

After that class, an introductory Anatomy course challenged me in ways I did not expect. I found myself in awe of how things worked. I personally concluded for myself -- on the basis of the evidence presented by an evolutionist teacher -- that the probability of this incredible level of coherent, interdependent, complex systems was unlikely to have been accomplished by random mutational events and natural selection. My conclusions were in spite of the irreligious views I held and in spite of the absence of current ID arguments.

13. It seems evolutionists regularly assume macro evolution because of the very real evidence supporting micro evolution. e.g because a malaria parasite or HIV virus readily develop resistance to medications via random mutation they make the jump to say everything developed due to random mutation. I personally do not believe macro evolution has taken place on any kind of scale required to produce what is observed. I believe the difficulty of random mutation explaining the amazing development of ever increasing complex cellular machinery represents great difficulties to macro evolutionary theory. Every argument that either side makes ought ALWAYS be framed by whether they are talking about micro or macro evolution. It is easy to exclude this though and makes debate much less clear.

14. Every ID scientist I have read agrees that the basic tenets of Darwinian evolution are TRUE! Yes, true. Common descent, natural selection and random mutation actually happen and can explain some, even many elements of life. It seems the disagreement is in the degree of life that those real and observable events explain.

These tenets do not seem to explain the complexity of self-replicating, nanobot-like abilities of cellular machinery. Nor do they explain the amazing fine tuning of our universe to support the possibility of life. Add the fact that these alleged random machines then work with other random machines to create and sustain life in extremely intricate ways. The conclusion that blind, random processes actually produce this amazing complexity seems suspect and deserves consideration.

15. A challenge often made regarding design is "explain why a designer so poorly designed things to allow disease?" A possible explanation: The human body is an example of "macro-design." But the designer designed in the ability for the human body to adapt to an ever-changing environment via the proven micro evolutionary abilities of random mutation and natural selection. These mutations are sometimes good and sometimes bad The good ones are naturally selected producing something beneficial in response to the changing environment. Sometimes, however, a mutation produces something bad, like a particular disease.

More so, I believe MAN has dramatically altered it's own environment by stupidly introducing tens of thousands of poorly tested toxic chemicals that the body likely has almost no chance to adapt to, creating many diseases never before seen. To me a better question is to ask why the human body does not break more often.

16. It seems the evolutionist's answer to intricate complexity is almost always the “time god.” It seems when stumped, they always appeal to the magical, miracle producing time god. They say, "given TIME, random mutation and natural selection will/has produce(d) this complexity." As pointed out by ID scientists and others, the mathematical probability of these types of blind mutational events often exceeds the time the earth has existed.

17. Seems to me things that appear designed probably are. No one would look at anything that man has created and conclude that it happened without intelligent planning and building. To look at the machinery of the cell and not see design seems difficult for people like me. Even more amazing is not a single thing designed and created by man has the ability to self replicate, meaning build itself over and over.

And yet in the cell, hundreds of protein machines daily perform this task millions of times. These proteins not only build incredibly intricate, beautiful machines but when one breaks down, other machines immediately rebuild that machine using an informational system (DNA) that so far defies scientific understanding. Any new scientific revelations only describe WHAT happens, but rarely explain HOW that ability actually came to be, leaving room for competing reasonable explanations and theories.

18. I come out of the computer software business where every detail, large and small, HAD to be programmed intelligently, requiring much detailed planning, thought, revision and testing to make sure you got it right. And we never got it totally right in any version, regardless of how big (or small) the product development team was. Your computer ever lock up? The more programs you have running, the more likely it will lock up. It seems hard to believe that living informational systems -- far more complex and detailed -- simply arose from nothing by totally blind random events. It readily appears designed and boggles my ability to have faith in randomness.

19. Whenever a mutation does happen in the genetics of any of these complex machines, it almost always is destructive. e.g. some humans developed immunity to malaria due to a mutation to the hemoglobin machine in their red blood cells. This appears beneficial and is, partially. It is an oft used example by evolutionists to prove random mutation. In fact, it is proof of random mutation and natural selection.

But when two people carrying that same gene produce offspring, the unfortunate pairing of those two genes will produce Sickle Cell anemia. So what was a benefit, now kills with no uncertainty. This mutation only happens in one position of the DNA. It seems extremely rare to demonstrate 2 or 3 random mutations that produce something beneficial and to my knowledge has never been shown to create entirely new protein machinery.

The eminent geneticist Francois Jacob famously wrote that Darwin is a "tinkerer," not an engineer.

20. It seems the more we learn about the development and operation of cellular machinery the more incredibly complex things become. Darwin's blind, small, random mutations producing ever increasing complexity seems to break down very early in the march towards complexity. Every mutation has a much greater chance of screwing up machinery instead of making it better. Add the complexity of cells needing to become many types of cells (a few hundred different types in humans) in order to produce the many systems found in a plant, animal or human; the task of planning, creating, and maintaining these many systems seems mathematically astronomical. Especially if the intricacies HAVE to be accomplished by blind, random means.

Add to this, the absolute need for very finely tuned physical and chemical laws of the universe to be "just so" with incredible precision and detail in order for life to even exist. Even the properties of water are unique versus any other liquid and life cannot exist without that uniqueness. Design seems more probable, if not at the very least, a reasonable possibility.

21. The three theories that make up Darwinian evolution -- common descent, random mutation, and natural selection -- while true, don't seem to explain how things actually began or originated (abiogenesis). Inanimate to animate? Dead to living? Nothing to something? Where and how did the incredibly complex informational system found in DNA arise on its own to produce even simple cells?

Evolutionists and IDers can neither prove nor disprove anything with scientific method because no one was there to observe what actually happened. So when macro evolutionists regularly point out with disdain that ID (abiogenesis) is "not science because it can't be tested," they should be intellectually honest and admit this same flaw in their own theory.

22. Darwin's theories and observations were made at a time when virtually nothing was known regarding the actual complexity of cells and their machines. The cell was considered "gray goo" since he did not have a microscope to see structures within the cell. His observations, while true in the micro, did not anticipate or explain the utter complexity we now know exists. Darwin himself suggested that if cells were eventually shown to be extremely complex his theories regarding the jump to macro evolution might be wrong. That is refreshing if so. Darwin humbly suggesting there might be reasons to question his theories? Wow!

23. Recent discovery that DNA is NOT mostly "junk DNA" seems problematic to macro evolution. No longer an argument against design and yet more incredible complexity to explain. If less than 5% of the information in DNA is needed to create functional machines then why did a "designer" make all the other junk? Well, it isn’t junk! Discoveries that most of DNA actually does something highly functional means that even more blind, random, beneficial mutations had to have happened to create this massively detailed, machine creating, self-replicating informational system.

24. Much of what I read by evolutionists is of the same types of arguments made by IDers. Conjecture, inference, logic, suppositions, envisioning, reasoning that build on each other to conclusions -- most of which can never be reproduced in a lab. It seems both side's arguments are simply observations and conclusions looking at the ever increasing amount of data. Each draw different conclusions from this exact same data. Much like Democrats and Republicans arguing in uncivilized ways over the exact same data and issues, all from a different bias.

Concluding, it seems much of our universe is beyond the understanding of even the smartest of scientists. And isn't that cool in and of itself. There is still a mysterious world to discover.

I appreciate the evolutionists and ID scientists who maintain a sense of humility in their approach to the awesomeness of the universe. Arrogance and incivility becomes no one. I have read comments by evolutionary scientists marveling at the universe’s complexity and mechanisms needed to create them; from the physics of the earth which appear so finely tuned for life, "as if the universe anticipated us" down to the tiniest, incredibly intricate, molecular machines that clearly have wonderful informational systems making everything happen with such precision.

I too appreciate the awe that our universe inspires in most everyone who observes it.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: creationism; crevo; darwinism; fsmdidit; intelligentdesign; naturalselection
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10,000 scientific papers on evolution?

Good! Edge of Evolution by Michael Behe is happy to embrace all the micro-evolution from natural selection acting on random mutations. No big deal.

Show us a good example of macro-evolution that came about through random mutations, and explain how you rule out intelligent design for the macro-evolution scientifically - and we will be more impressed.

1 posted on 07/07/2007 12:58:29 AM PDT by MatthewTan
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To: MatthewTan

Another paper by Pat Sullivan on his blog of July 4, 2007.
Visit www.pro-science.com to keep yourself abreast about science and materialism, and the non-materialistic alternative.

- from Pat Sullivan’s blog -

Review of Dawkin’s Review of Behe’s “Edge of Evolution”

Here is Dr. Dawkin’s review of Dr. Behe’s new book “The Edge of Evolution”. A quote from his review.

Poster boy of creationists everywhere, he has cut himself adrift from the world of real science.

Exactly my point in my post here in number 2 and 3... Always say ID scientists are creationists and always say they are not real scientists. In other words, demean them which is my point number 1.

Here is a review of Dawkin’s review written by Logan Gage. A quote from this review.

Dawkins is a master of rhetoric. Only he could take a clear example of intelligently designed evolution (dog breeding) and offer it as a convincing “proof” of Darwinian evolution.

Here is another review of his review appearing on the blog “Uncommon Descent” A snippet from this review,

But where Dawkins lacks in substance, he more than makes up for it in form. Dawkins cunningly avoided dealing squarely with the facts, and rather chose to resort to veiled ad hominems and arguments from authority. For Dawkins, this only makes sense because, as one of Dawkins loyal cohorts in Canada, Larry Moran, aptly said, “it’s going to be a challenge to refute Behe’s main claims”.

Finally here are Behe’s own comments regarding a few other reviews of his new book. A quote from it.

Yet he is unwilling or unable to engage my arguments. He spends the first third of his review, and parts thereafter, writing of young earth creationism, while stating somewhere in the middle that, oh yes, Behe is not a young earth creationist. He says that all those arguments of Darwin’s Black Box have certainly been refuted, without bothering with wearying details. And he regrets that there is more of the same pesky trivia in The Edge of Evolution: “we are still where we were with Darwin’s Black Box. The microworld is too complex to be a product of nature.” In fact, he never tells readers of the review what the book’s argument is. No sickle cell, no malaria, no nothing. Unfortunately, the review boils down to mere Darwinian posturing.

Have a safe 4th of July!


2 posted on 07/07/2007 1:08:12 AM PDT by MatthewTan
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To: MatthewTan
My reading and study doesn't prove out any hard core ID religiosity.

I have never heard of any atheist who "believes in" ID. We can safely say that 100% of the ID "believers" or religious in one way or another.

Evolution, by contrast, is accepted by both religious people and atheists.

3 posted on 07/07/2007 1:27:44 AM PDT by Jeff Gordon ("An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping it will eat him last." Churchill)
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To: Jeff Gordon
>Evolution, by contrast, is accepted by both religious people and atheists.

I'd qualify that. Evolution is accepted by atheists and by "religious people" who who've never thought terribly hard about it.

Evolution and Christianity in particular are totally incompatible. Somebody who believes in logic can only believe in one of them.

4 posted on 07/07/2007 1:32:22 AM PDT by rickdylan
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; hosepipe; marron

Ping to yet another ID/MacroEvo thread...


5 posted on 07/07/2007 1:32:59 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: Jeff Gordon

Darwinism is a atheist construct and is NOT accepted by the faithful.


6 posted on 07/07/2007 2:03:22 AM PDT by Axlrose
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To: Axlrose
Darwinism is a atheist construct and is NOT accepted by the faithful.

If you define "the faithful" as Christians who do not accept Evolution, then you are 100% correct.

7 posted on 07/07/2007 3:20:13 AM PDT by Jeff Gordon ("An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping it will eat him last." Churchill)
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To: Jeff Gordon
We can safely say that 100% of the ID "believers" or religious in one way or another.

It almost sounds like you are arguing that ID cannot be true -- because everyone who believes in ID also follows some religion.

That might qualify as a gentle ad hominem attack on proponents of ID. The concept of ID should be addressed, not the other beliefs of it's proponents.

8 posted on 07/07/2007 3:29:22 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (Progressives like to keep doing the things that didn't work in the past.)
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To: MatthewTan

By the same token, show us a good example of intelligent design and explain how you rule out macro-evolution. This debate goes both ways. But again, just more meaningless finger pointing “my imaginary friend is better than yours!”

The problem is that although Darwin provided the basis for current science, a significant portion of his research and observations have been discarded in favour of more modern research. There is no conclusive evidence either way right now...but I will point out a quote that I posted in another ID/Evolution thread earlier:

“I’ve never understood how God could expect His creatures to pick the one true religion by faith - it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe.”
- Robert Heinlein through Jubal Harshaw in Stranger in a Strange Land


9 posted on 07/07/2007 3:47:01 AM PDT by AntiKev ("No damage. The world's still turning isn't it?" - Stereo Goes Stellar - Blow Me A Holloway)
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To: Jeff Gordon; rickdylan

>Evolution, by contrast, is accepted by both religious
>people and atheists.

Indeed, only people of faith who haven’t thought about the implications of evolution, and the contradictions with Genesis would espouse and promote such a worldview.

Here’s a list I copied from a book.

*********************************

Bible: God is the creator of all things. (Genesis 1)

Evolution: Natural chance processes can account for the existence of all things.

Bible: World created as is in six literal days. (Genesis 1)

Evolution: World evolved over billions of years.

Bible: Creation is completed. (Genesis 2:3)

Evolution: Creative processes continuing.

Bible: Oceans before land. (Genesis 1:2)

Evolution: Land before oceans.

Bible: First life on land. (Genesis 1:11)

Evolution: Life began in the oceans.

Bible: First life was land plants. (Genesis 1:11)

Evolution: Marine organisms evolved first.

Bible: Earth before sun and stars. (Genesis 1:14-19)

Evolution: Sun and stars before earth.

Bible: Fruit trees before fish. (Genesis 1:11,20,21)

Evolution: Fish before fruit trees.

Bible: All stars made on fourth day. (Genesis 1:16)

Evolution: Stars evolved at various times.

Bible: Birds and fish created on the fifth day. (Genesis 1:20-21)

Evolution: Fish evolved hundreds of millions of years before birds.

Bible: Birds before insects. (Genesis 1:20-31, Leviticus 11)

Evolution: Insects before birds.

Bible: Whales before reptiles. (Genesis 1:20-31)

Evolution: Reptiles before whales.

Bible: Birds before reptiles. (Genesis 1:20-31)

Evolution: Reptiles before birds.

Bible: Light before the sun. (Genesis 1:3-9)

Evolution: Sun before any light.

Bible: Plants before the sun. (Genesis 1:11-19)

Evolution: Sun before any plants.

Bible: Abundance and variety of marine life all at once. (Genesis 1:20)

Evolution: Marine life gradually developed from a primitive organic soup.

Bible: Man’s body from the dust of the earth. (Genesis 2:7)

Evolution: Man and monkey have a common ancestor.

Bible: Man exercised dominion over all organisms. (Genesis 1:28)

Evolution: Many organisms extinct before man evolved.

Bible: Man originally a vegetarian. (Genesis 1:29)

Evolution: Man originally a meat-eater.

Bible: Fixed and distinct kinds of life (Genesis 1:11,12,21,24,25)

Evolution: All life is in a continual state of change.

Bible: Death caused by Eve and Adam eating the forbidden fruit. (Genesis 2:17)

Evolution: Death existed long before the evolution of man.


10 posted on 07/07/2007 4:50:14 AM PDT by ROTB (Our Constitution...only for a [Christian] people...it is wholly inadequate for any other.-J.Q.Adams)
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To: AntiKev; MatthewTan

>I will point out a quote that I posted in another
>ID/Evolution thread earlier:

>“I’ve never understood how God could expect His creatures to
>pick the one true religion by faith - it strikes me as a
>sloppy way to run a universe.”
>
>- Robert Heinlein through Jubal Harshaw in Stranger in a
>Strange Land

Only the Bible says what happens thousands of years before it happens. Please see http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html for the details.

The Koran, the Bag-va-geet-a, Zoroastrianism, Ba-hai-ism, the Hindu Vedas, etc. are not like this. The non-divine authors of these books wisely stay away from predictive prophecy, in which they routinely fail.


11 posted on 07/07/2007 4:57:07 AM PDT by ROTB (Our Constitution...only for a [Christian] people...it is wholly inadequate for any other.-J.Q.Adams)
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To: MatthewTan
"Nor do they explain the amazing fine tuning of our universe to support the possibility of life."

Yes, given our lifeform, it's amazing how the whole universe was built around it, fine tuned to support it. Why, a mere 1% change in the force of gravity would make life impossible!

There must be intelligent design!

(/sacrcasm for those who didn't pick it up.)

12 posted on 07/07/2007 5:04:01 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: ROTB
Somewhere deep inside each and every one of our body's cells there's what amounts to a really heavy duty super computer (operating much like we now imagine our forthcoming quantum computers operate).

No doubt they are all in direct contact with the ongoing structure of the universe, and of God.

Now, just what do you suppose God is telling the super computer to do? How can we tap into the signal directly and maybe get ahead of the game? How can we interpret the signal in the "macro world"?

So many questions, so many answers, so much yet to know about how superposition and entanglement.

13 posted on 07/07/2007 5:08:06 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: ROTB
Somewhere deep inside each and every one of our body's cells there's what amounts to a really heavy duty super computer (operating much like we now imagine our forthcoming quantum computers operate).

No doubt they are all in direct contact with the ongoing structure of the universe, and of God.

Now, just what do you suppose God is telling the super computer to do? How can we tap into the signal directly and maybe get ahead of the game? How can we interpret the signal in the "macro world"?

So many questions, so many answers, so much yet to know about how superposition and entanglement.

14 posted on 07/07/2007 5:08:06 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: AntiKev

>There is no conclusive evidence either way right now ...

I am currently listening to “The Case for a Creator” by Lee Strobel http://www.amazon.com/Case-Creator-Journalist-Investigates-Scientific/dp/0310254396/ref=sr_1_1/102-8767029-5694527?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183809622&sr=8-1.

Very, very, interesting! (You have to say this with a German accent)

Listening to this will help the inclined to better choose how good the evidence is FOR a creator.


15 posted on 07/07/2007 5:11:22 AM PDT by ROTB (Our Constitution...only for a [Christian] people...it is wholly inadequate for any other.-J.Q.Adams)
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To: muawiyah

>Now, just what do you suppose God is telling the super
>computer to do? How can we tap into the signal directly and
>maybe get ahead of the game? How can we interpret the signal
>in the “macro world”?

Only the Bible says what happens thousands of years before it happens. Please see http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html for the details. The Koran, Bag-va-geet-a, Zoroastrianism, Ba-hai-ism, don’t do this. Only the Bible.

This is the signature of God, that you may know that the Bible alone is His message to mankind, and thus the supercomputers that make up your body.


16 posted on 07/07/2007 5:15:58 AM PDT by ROTB (Our Constitution...only for a [Christian] people...it is wholly inadequate for any other.-J.Q.Adams)
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To: MatthewTan

The original Star Trek hinted at an intelligent designer all the time.

When the universe is assumed to be billions of years old and our existence is a tiny fraction of that, why isn’t it possible that we are the product of some vast experiement by an intelligence greater than we can know?


17 posted on 07/07/2007 5:18:36 AM PDT by Raycpa
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To: ROTB

An evolutionist has no logical basis for morality. It’s about morality more than theology.


18 posted on 07/07/2007 5:22:36 AM PDT by rickdylan
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To: ROTB

There’s only one flaw in that interpretation...they start with the answer and work backwards to find the appropriate question to ask. They’ve defined the math to fit the idea that they were trying to describe much like the global warming alarmists do (ref: hockey stick). You can make the data fit the observations if you try hard enough and manipulate enough. You can’t conclude anything like this from a book as vague as the bible. Sorry but it just doesn’t work that way.


19 posted on 07/07/2007 5:27:11 AM PDT by AntiKev ("No damage. The world's still turning isn't it?" - Stereo Goes Stellar - Blow Me A Holloway)
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To: Raycpa; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; cornelis
[.. When the universe is assumed to be billions of years old and our existence is a tiny fraction of that, why isn’t it possible that we are the product of some vast experiment by an intelligence greater than we can know? ..]

TIME..... may NOT [wholly] be a linear thing.. The possibility of an Eternity/Infinity could preclude a linear reality.. as a circumference precludes the volume of a sphere..

20 posted on 07/07/2007 5:42:17 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: MatthewTan

read later


21 posted on 07/07/2007 6:41:16 AM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Axlrose
Darwinism is a atheist construct and is NOT accepted by the faithful.

The Mr. Ken Hamm of "Answers in Genesis" came to my church several months ago, stood at the podium, and said the exact same thing. He also said that the world was created in six literal, sunrise-to-sunset, days. He also said that if you add up all the begats in the old testament, it points to a world that is less than 10,000 years old. He finished with saying if you don't believe the literal interpretation of Genesis, why believe the literal interpretation of John 3:16?

It worked. I haven't been to church since. I don't know if there is a God, or if there is, what form It is in, but I know this: I'm done. If I have to choose between reading a science book or reading the Bible, I'll take the science book every time.

The sad thing is, no one goes to church to find out how old the universe is. They go in order to associate with some decent people, and to feel as if they are a part of something larger. (At least I did.) If the tenets of Christianity can be invalidated by a proven scientific theory, then Christianity (as currently defined) is doomed.

22 posted on 07/07/2007 6:49:37 AM PDT by Ex-Pralite Monk (I am not responsible for the successful working of the machinery of society. Thoreau)
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To: MatthewTan
Thanks for posting. There is a lot of content, and it was thoughtfully written. My logic class contained a section on informal fallacies, and Sullivan addresses some of them. He spends a fair amount of time noting and arguing against the ad hominem attack. It is a shame these “attacks against the man” are so common in these debates. Sullivan was right to take this on upfront and at length. Again, it is a shame that Sullivan was compelled to address this.

Another fallacy is the genetic fallacy: the fallacy that an argument should be accepted, or rejected, based upon it’s source. I think Sullivan dispatches this one too. Not everyone gets this wrong. The Hidden History of the Human Race is written by Cremo and Thompson, who acknowledge they have a Vedic background. But as they say “What really matters is not a theory’s source but its ability to account for the observations.”

Here is something more advanced:

Everyone brings bias to their arguments, conscious or unconscious, and bias in and of itself is not wrong -- hidden bias is what's wrong.

I think he is absolutely right and many people should take this to heart.

Sullivan notes the bias of some evolutionists who must find a naturalistic explanation regardless of the evidence.

Sullivan distances himself from creationists. But one of the best and most refreshing admissions of bias that I’ve seen was at a creationist (some say “creation science”) website. The author addressed the age of the universe and freely admitted that his religious understanding gave him the answer - now to the science. He came up with several approaches and evaluated each, pro and con. I remember one approach had the speed of light changing over time. That struck me as sheer conjecture. But so does the idea of multiverses, and other cosmological speculation that some are given credence by some.
23 posted on 07/07/2007 7:26:52 AM PDT by ChessExpert (Ronald Reagan deconstructed the Soviet Union, despite the Democrats)
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To: Jeff Gordon
I have never heard of any atheist who "believes in" ID.

Nor I, in this context. An atheist who denied evolution would seem to have no explanation for the life about us.

The search for extraterrestial intelligence (SETI) includes the search for signals that display intelligence, signals that are intelligently designed. That too is ID. I expect many SETI enthusiasts are atheists. If so, atheists have no problem with ID as long as the field is SETI and not biology.

To me, intelligent design should be no more controversial than natural selection. If I were to find cupid’s heart and “Bobby loves Sandy” on a sandy beach, I would infer intelligent design, and would reject the tide as an explanation. The idea that a soot filled era would favor black cats, or a snowy environment might favor white cats, seems like common sense and natural selection would be a highly plausible hypothesis.

24 posted on 07/07/2007 9:15:22 AM PDT by ChessExpert (Ronald Reagan deconstructed the Soviet Union, despite the Democrats)
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To: rickdylan
An evolutionist has no logical basis for morality. It’s about morality more than theology.

Actually it's about science -- you know, facts and well-supported theories and all that.

25 posted on 07/07/2007 9:18:41 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: AntiKev

>There’s only one flaw in that interpretation...they start
>with the answer and work backwards to find the appropriate
>question to ask. They’ve defined the math to fit the idea
>that they were trying to describe much like the global
>warming alarmists do (ref: hockey stick). You can make the
>data fit the observations if you try hard enough and
>manipulate enough. You can’t conclude anything like this
>from a book as vague as the bible. Sorry but it just doesn’t
>work that way.

The math for all three prophecies works without violence being done to the language of the Bible.

Please support your assertion by naming exactly where the writer of the article, “defined the math to fit the idea that they were trying to describe”.


26 posted on 07/07/2007 9:35:16 AM PDT by ROTB (Our Constitution...only for a [Christian] people...it is wholly inadequate for any other.-J.Q.Adams)
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To: ROTB
Over 2,500 years ago, the history of a country and a city were foretold and documented accurately to within days of modern events that took place within the last 50 years.

The accuracy of the calculations is complete conjecture as evidenced by the following:

The prophet Jeremiah around 600 BC predicted that because the Jews were turning away from God to idol worship and other Gods he would punish them for 70 years under Babylonian captivity

Around is the historians term for within a few hundred years. The source he cites for the 360 day year is himself. But it could have just as easily been the aforementioned 354 day year.

So basically it starts with a false premise and works from there. I still contend that the bible is so vague that I could come to another date with another set of equally valid assumptions. I don't have time right now to go into this any further. Maybe later.

27 posted on 07/07/2007 9:56:17 AM PDT by AntiKev ("No damage. The world's still turning isn't it?" - Stereo Goes Stellar - Blow Me A Holloway)
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To: ROTB

Hmmm ~ I know all those documents ~ you are in error. Many of them draw on the same source as the Bible.


28 posted on 07/07/2007 9:57:43 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: ROTB
BTW, in a universe with at least 11 full dimensions, only 4 of which we can directly sense, there's no doubt there's a lot of stuff going on right under our noses we don't know about, nor even suspect.
29 posted on 07/07/2007 10:01:14 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: MatthewTan

Marketing science: The list should be a bullet list following the seven plus, or minus two rule.


30 posted on 07/07/2007 10:04:07 AM PDT by RightWhale (It's Brecht's donkey, not mine)
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To: AntiKev
There is no conclusive evidence either way right now...

O.K.

but I will point out a quote that I posted in another ID/Evolution thread earlier:
“I’ve never understood how God could expect His creatures to pick the one true religion by faith - it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe.”
- Robert Heinlein through Jubal Harshaw in Stranger in a Strange Land


Now we’ve jumped away from intelligent design and Darwinian, or some other, theory of evolution right into theology. I find that an odd thing to do.

The quote, presumably your thinking as well, contains an assertion that “God expects his creatures to pick one true religion by faith.” What is the basis for that? I have not heard it before.

It is true that there are many religions. Some take this as disproof of religion. There are also many versions of evolution but that is taken as support for evolution. Perhaps anyone who takes a complex topic, or field, seriously will be able to discern non-trivial differences of opinion. Those who do not take the topic seriously can use these differences as an opportunity to mock the field or domain. I’ve done this myself in challenging global warmng. It went something like this. In the 70’s you predicted doom from global cooling, now you predict doom from global warming, make up your mind. This technique may be valid to the point of challenging dogmatism. But I think rejecting religion, evolution, climate study, or anything else, in its entirety simply because there are differences of opinion is mistaken. It’s dogmatism that I reject. I welcome differences of opinion. I take them as a positive sign.
31 posted on 07/07/2007 10:36:35 AM PDT by ChessExpert (Ronald Reagan deconstructed the Soviet Union, despite the Democrats)
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To: AntiKev

>>The prophet Jeremiah around 600 BC predicted that because
>>the Jews were turning away from God to idol worship and
>>other Gods he would punish them for 70 years under
>>Babylonian captivity

>Around is the historians term for within a few hundred
>years. The source he cites for the 360 day year is himself.

Whatever “around” means, the Old Testament was finished long before the birth of Christ, and we know this because of the many ancient authors that quote the Old Testament. You can’t quote what doesn’t exist. Thus, the prophecies were all demonstrably in written form long before the subject matters they dealt with came to pass.

The sources he cites for the 360 day year are Genesis 7, Genesis 8, Esther 1, and Isaac Newton (yes, Mr. Gravity/Calculus Isaac Newton), not himself.

Get back to me when you have time sir. This is worth 100 hours of your life spent in investigation.


32 posted on 07/07/2007 11:09:44 AM PDT by ROTB (Our Constitution...only for a [Christian] people...it is wholly inadequate for any other.-J.Q.Adams)
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To: ClearCase_guy
The concept of ID should be addressed, not the other beliefs of it's proponents.

I was addressing a specific argument made by the author of the lead posting.

Why do yo wish to see it as an attack on ID?

33 posted on 07/07/2007 1:17:47 PM PDT by Jeff Gordon ("An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping it will eat him last." Churchill)
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To: ROTB

Your evidence against evolution comes from campfire stories told by bronze age men? Surely you jest.


34 posted on 07/07/2007 1:22:28 PM PDT by Jeff Gordon ("An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping it will eat him last." Churchill)
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To: ChessExpert
The idea that a soot filled era would favor black cats, or a snowy environment might favor white cats, seems like common sense and natural selection would be a highly plausible hypothesis.

If the hypothesis is very simple you can agree with it. If the hypothesis gets complex beyond your ability to analyze it, you think that God must have done it.

35 posted on 07/07/2007 1:32:20 PM PDT by Jeff Gordon ("An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping it will eat him last." Churchill)
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To: Jeff Gordon

You think you know a lot about me! LOL.


36 posted on 07/07/2007 2:44:46 PM PDT by ChessExpert (Carbon Dioxide is a trace gas necessary for life. It's good for the trees. CO2 is Green!!)
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To: Jeff Gordon

>Your evidence against evolution comes from campfire stories
>told by bronze age men? Surely you jest.

I don’t jest ... and stop calling me Shirley.

Those “stories” predict the future, and only God can do that. Such accurate predictions don’t appear in the Koran or any other “holy book”.


37 posted on 07/07/2007 5:28:03 PM PDT by ROTB (Our Constitution...only for a [Christian] people...it is wholly inadequate for any other.-J.Q.Adams)
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To: ROTB
Those “stories” predict the future, and only God can do that.

What do these stories say about Hillary? Is she really the anti-Christ? I have heard that she has the number of the beast tattooed onto her labia.

38 posted on 07/07/2007 6:01:36 PM PDT by Jeff Gordon ("An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping it will eat him last." Churchill)
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To: ChessExpert; ROTB

I agree completely that we should reject dogmatism. It does noone any good. None at all. I think that we should all be open to both sides of the argument and refute eachother’s arguments with the facts as we know them. End of story.

As for spending 100 hours investigating this. Sorry but that’s just not in the cards. There are much more pressing matters. I will say this though, this whole “paper” wreaks of circular logic. And you can’t deny that he starts with a conclusion and then draws his “facts” from that. You may be able to prove exactly what he said, but do the proof properly. Don’t look for an answer, and then invent facts to support it.

I know very well that my viewpoint is a lonely one here on FR, but it’s much needed. This religious dogmatism is one thing that the left likes to harp on about conservatives. It just doesn’t help our cause.


39 posted on 07/07/2007 6:02:03 PM PDT by AntiKev ("No damage. The world's still turning isn't it?" - Stereo Goes Stellar - Blow Me A Holloway)
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To: TXnMA

Interesting article. Thanks for the ping!


40 posted on 07/07/2007 9:30:55 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: hosepipe

Thank you for sharing your musings!


41 posted on 07/07/2007 9:32:29 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: MatthewTan

Terrific post. All who respond have proven themsleves to be creators. Not very “scientific” of them, I say!


42 posted on 07/07/2007 9:43:18 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Ex-Pralite Monk
It worked. I haven't been to church since. I don't know if there is a God, or if there is, what form It is in, but I know this: I'm done. If I have to choose between reading a science book or reading the Bible, I'll take the science book every time.

You should consider not letting another human being's ideas come between you and your personal relationship with God.

My experience has shown me that God has a way of focusing me on the things that He finds important for me and I can mostly disregard what other people are focusing on.

Makes for better relationships with everyone!

P.S. It is my opinion that being that God is not restricted by our time domain (inhabiting eternity), understanding the geological timing of our universe becomes insignificant to my spiritual growth.

43 posted on 07/07/2007 10:41:24 PM PDT by bondserv (God governs our universe and has seen fit to offer us a pardon. )
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To: AntiKev

>Don’t look for an answer, and then invent facts to support
>it.

I meant 100 hours amortized over the next 10 years, assuming you have them. The Lord does not expect you to quit your job, go dumpster diving for your next 40 meals, and skip a mortgage payment to look into his exclusive claims of providing eternal life.

It’s not circular. If you dig into the links, you will notice for instance that the reason he says 606BC was the year that the Babylonians conquered Israel is:

1) The Babylonians kept a history of events
2) They also recorded lunar and solar eclipses
3) By taking the present position/velocity of the moon, we can calculate the date of these eclipses precisely
4) We interpolate from the dates of these eclipses to other dates, like say the conquest of Israel, which we thus know with certainty happened in 606BC

You just have to dig, and you just have to take history at face value, unless you have reason not to.


44 posted on 07/07/2007 11:10:10 PM PDT by ROTB (Our Constitution...only for a [Christian] people...it is wholly inadequate for any other.-J.Q.Adams)
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To: AntiKev

>This religious dogmatism is one thing that the left likes to
>harp on about conservatives. It just doesn’t help our cause.

Since when is sucking up to the left a good idea? They’re wrong about everything else, what makes you think they’re right about God?

Back when I was a conservative atheist, the “religious right” scared me also, because I liked doing “my own thing”, so I understand your reluctance to delve into the existence of Creators at least somewhat.

Instead of spending 100 hours, maybe you could purchase Lee Strobel’s “The Case for a Creator” on CD, and just listen to it in the car/subway on the way to work?

Have a great day FRiend.


45 posted on 07/08/2007 6:45:43 PM PDT by ROTB (Our Constitution...only for a [Christian] people...it is wholly inadequate for any other.-J.Q.Adams)
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To: ROTB
...I understand your reluctance to delve into the existence of Creators at least somewhat.

Instead of spending 100 hours, maybe you could purchase Lee Strobel’s “The Case for a Creator” on CD...

Does your tolerance for "creators" extend this far, or are you only in favor of the Biblical story of creation?


The Creation of Men and Women

When the world was finished, there were as yet no people, but the Bald Eagle was chief of the animals. He saw that the world was incomplete and decided to make some human beings. So he took some clay and modeled the figure of a man and laid him on the ground. At first he was very small but he grew rapidly until he reached normal size. But as yet he had no life; he was still asleep. Then the Bald Eagle stood and admired his work. "It is impossible," he said, "that he should be left alone; he must have a mate." So he pulled out a feather and laid it beside the sleeping man. Then he left them and went off a short distance, for he knew that a woman was being formed from the feather. But the man was still asleep and did not know what was happening. When the Bald Eagle decided that the woman was about completed, he returned, awoke the man by flapping his wings over him and flew away.

The man opened his eyes and stared at the woman. "What does this mean?" he asked. "I thought I was alone!" Then the Bald Eagle returned and said with a smile, "I see you have a mate! Have you had intercourse with her?" "No," replied he man, for he and the woman knew nothing about each other. Then the Bald Eagle called to Coyote who happened to be going by and said to him, "Do you see that woman? Try her first!" Coyote was quite willing and complied, but immediately afterwards lay down and died. The Bald Eagle went away and left Coyote dead, but presently returned and revived him. "How did it work?" said the Bald Eagle. "Pretty well, but it nearly kills a man!" replied Coyote. "Will you try it again?" said the Bald Eagle. Coyote agreed, and tried again, and this time survived. Then the Bald Eagle turned to the man and said, "She is all right now; you and she are to live together.

California Indian creation story


46 posted on 07/08/2007 7:24:51 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman

No man. The reason the Bible is the Word of God, is that it says what happens thousands of years before it happens. Men and devils can’t do this. Indian legends certainly don’t do this.

So do you side with the left on anything else besides atheism?


47 posted on 07/08/2007 8:20:03 PM PDT by ROTB (Our Constitution...only for a [Christian] people...it is wholly inadequate for any other.-J.Q.Adams)
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To: ROTB
No man. The reason the Bible is the Word of God, is that it says what happens thousands of years before it happens. Men and devils can’t do this. Indian legends certainly don’t do this.

So you aren't in favor of creation as a whole, you are only in favor of the Christian version as specified in Genesis. You should have said that in the first place.


So do you side with the left on anything else besides atheism?

Ad hominem BS not worthy of a reply.

48 posted on 07/08/2007 8:30:06 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman

>So you aren’t in favor of creation as a whole, you are only
>in favor of the Christian version as specified in Genesis.
>You should have said that in the first place.

The nature of a truth claim, is that it excludes all competitors. For example, a car can’t be completely black, and completely white at the same time. It being one necessarily excludes the other.

In the same way, believing the Bible necessarily excludes other accounts of creation like those of the American Indians.

The story behind evolution has changed a lot over the last 150 years, but you don’t believe every incremental version simultaneously, right?

>>So do you side with the left on anything else besides
>>atheism?

>Ad hominem BS not worthy of a reply.

I’m not attacking you, I am attacking the consistency of your beliefs. My beliefs are consistently Biblical. You should consider re-considering your world-view/biases if you share a point of view (atheism/evolution) shared by the abortionist/homosexual/PC/Communists/Nazis, which gives them license to kill indiscriminately, whether people or babies or innocence.

Have a great day FRiend.


49 posted on 07/10/2007 7:32:06 PM PDT by ROTB (Our Constitution...only for a [Christian] people...it is wholly inadequate for any other.-J.Q.Adams)
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To: ROTB
So you aren’t in favor of creation as a whole, you are only in favor of the Christian version as specified in Genesis. You should have said that in the first place.

The nature of a truth claim, is that it excludes all competitors. For example, a car can’t be completely black, and completely white at the same time. It being one necessarily excludes the other.

In the same way, believing the Bible necessarily excludes other accounts of creation like those of the American Indians.

That is true. And this is why you generally don't see scientists speaking of truth (Truth, TRVTH). You see them dealing with facts and well-tested and well-supported theories. Scientists rely on the scientific method, not on revelation.

As Heinlein noted:

Belief gets in the way of learning.

Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973


The story behind evolution has changed a lot over the last 150 years, but you don’t believe every incremental version simultaneously, right?

Belief, as noted above, is the wrong term.

Religions speak in terms of beliefs, and rue anything that causes change to their dogma.

Science, through the scientific method, becomes increasingly accurate over time and scientists are gratified that it is so.


You: So do you side with the left on anything else besides atheism?

Me: Ad hominem BS not worthy of a reply.

I’m not attacking you, I am attacking the consistency of your beliefs. My beliefs are consistently Biblical. You should consider re-considering your world-view/biases if you share a point of view (atheism/evolution) shared by the abortionist/homosexual/PC/Communists/Nazis, which gives them license to kill indiscriminately, whether people or babies or innocence.

You were making an ad hominem attack, and your clarification only made it worse.

How would you like it if I responded in kind? For example, I could say your God is a baby-killer and practices genocide. And I could cite the global flood and the first-borns of Egypt, among many other examples for this. And it would get us nowhere.

Perhaps you could leave the ad hominem attacks aside and we could debate the scientific issues on their merits, as the scientific issues are what I am trying to deal with.


Have a great day FRiend.

Likewise. We'll see you downthread.

50 posted on 07/10/2007 8:01:09 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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