Will Raw Milk Still Be Available in California After Jan. 1? New Reg May Shut Down Largest Dairy

The Complete Patient ^ | Oct. 25, 2007 | David E. Gumpert

[davidgumpert]

Californians’ easy access to raw milk—it’s available in 350 health food stores and 40 Whole Foods grocery stores around the state—has been placed in serious jeopardy by a few words about a bacteria standard included in Assembly Bill 1735, a piece of agriculture legislation signed into law a couple weeks ago by Gov. Arnold Schwarzeneger, and due to take effect January 1.

Also in jeopardy is the mini-empire built up by Mark McAfee, owner of Organic Pastures Dairy Co., the dairy that supplies about 95% of the state’s unpasteurized milk, consumed by more than 100,000 Californians each week. Mark has had such ambitious expansion plans that he has been negotiating in recent months with venture capitalists for millions of dollars of investment.

[davidgumpert]

This debate is about much more than a bacteria standard. Underlying the debate is a major difference of opinion about what causes and prevents disease. Mark McAfee and other raw milk proponents argue that people should build up their immunity, and much of the bacteria in raw milk help in that effort. The FDA and CDFA take the view that we need to stamp out as much bacteria as possible, since we don’t know which is beneficial and which is pathogenic.

[Gay State Conservative]

Raw milk? Uck!

[Tamar1973]

I would never drink pasterized/homogenized milk. When I drink raw milk, I have no lactose intolerance issues. If I drink pasteruised/homogenized milk, my stomach attacks me.

[edcoil]

Looks like our politicians are tying to shake down the milk industry now.

[billorites]

Well, maybe on Castro Street...

[TruthConquers]

I finally get my daughter to drink milk; she only likes raw milk. If this succeeds, she will get an early lesson in the perils of governments dictating to a free people what they can’t and can do. She will learn early at 14 that her government is not about freedom at all.

[DaveyB]

This is about whether the consumer has a choice and if the free market can be trusted. Government tyranny or market choice. It's amazing how many liberals claim to be pro-choice when they force everyone to pay for their choice and then eliminate choices in the free market and the market place of ideas.

Personally I like the goat milk that comes from my own back yard.

[an amused spectator]

In the interests of full FR disclosure, have you ever had raw milk?

No, I have not, myself

[Sherman Logan]

The FDA and CDFA take the view that we need to stamp out as much bacteria as possible, since we don’t know which is beneficial and which is pathogenic.

Actually, I don't think they say that we don't know which bacteria are pathogenic. We do.

They (correctly) say that we cannot ensure the absence of pathogenic bacteria without killing all the bacteria.

[Gay State Conservative]

In the interests of full FR disclosure, have you ever had raw milk?

Nope.And I never will,God willing.I'm familiar enough with bacteriology to find the consumption of raw milk a singularly unappealing prospect.But...whatever floats one's boat.

[crazyhorse691]

In the interests of full FR disclosure, have you ever had raw milk?

---

Yep. Raised on the stuff until we moved into the city. And, my oldest son (as a young child) could not drink pasteurized milk as it gave him night terrors/bed wetting about 4 times nightly...Dr. Lindon(sp?) Smith suggested we change over to raw milk...it was like somebody flipped a switch.

[P8riot]

Raw cow’s milk is great, but raw goat’s milk is better for you. We think it tastes better too. I only raise cattle for meat, but one of these days we may get a milk cow.

[Ronin]

Raw milk? No thanks. Tried it and had the runs for a week.

[P8riot]

The voice of experience. </sarcasm>

[P8riot]

That’s probably because your immune system has been stunted because pasteurization has removed all of the organisms that would allow it to develop naturally. A lot of folks are diagnosed as lactose intolerant for the same reason.

[Malsua]

That’s probably because your immune system has been stunted because pasteurization has removed all of the organisms that would allow it to develop naturally

Rofl. I love reading all this garbage from you "yer body is borked because you didn't drink bacteria laden milk as a child" types.

I grew up on a farm. I drank cow-warm milk all the time. I had the shitz pretty regularly until I moved away and drank some of the dreaded pasteurized milk. It actually took me a year or so before I figured out the difference. As a teen, I thought that having explosive @#$%'s once a month for a day or two was normal.

[EQAndyBuzz]

I thought our nanny was supposed to provide us with milk.

[ThePythonicCow]

In the interests of full FR disclosure, have you ever had raw milk?

Yes. For the first year of my life, it kept me alive. One cow out of my Dad's entire (modest) herd gave milk that I could keep down. I could not tolerate my mothers milk, nor any other cows milk.

I get raw milk every week from Organic Pastures Dairy Co, via my local health food store. I'm moving to Texas in a few weeks, and carefully chose a place there to live that was just a few miles from a farm in Krum Texas selling raw milk because in Texas one can't sell raw milk retail.

Last month, the online seller of one of my preferred vitamins would no longer ship them to me, because of some California law (Prop 165, as I recall.)

I can't get out of this damn state soon enough.

[Mase]

The voice of experience.

I have a lot of experience with raw milk and spent years studying food borne pathogens. I would not, under any circumstances, consume raw milk and anyone who gives it to their children, especially young ones, is not thinking clearly.

Even if you have your own farm there is no way to fully sanitize udders. Even if you could you'd still be unaware of any pathogens transferred from the cow/goat through the milk like brucellosis or salmonella.

I remember a kid from the next farm over who missed about six months of school one year thanks to brucellosis from raw milk. He was never the same.

It's interesting that one of the very last countries in Europe to pass mandatory pasteurization laws was Scotland. Prior to the enactment of this legislation in 1983, the rate of milkborne Salmonellosis in Scotland was the highest in Europe. A year after pasteurization was made mandatory, Scotland's rate was one of the lowest. A study was then conducted on the remaining incidence of milkborne Salmonellosis over a three-year period following forced pasteurization. During that time there were only 15 outbreaks and all of them were in the rural farming communities and none in the general urban population. This was attributed to the fact that milk consumed in the remote farming districts was exempt from the pasteurization legislation that applied to the rest of the country.

Now the raw milk advocates blame pasteurized milk for just about everything from colic to cancer but there is no debate among people who take science seriously.

[television is just wrong]

are you kidding. it is the best. cooked milk is
dead food.

[ThePythonicCow]

Raw cow’s milk is great, but raw goat’s milk is better for you

For many people, yes, but for some people either is fine.

About 10,000 years ago, some Northern Europeans developed the ability to digest lactose easily. Descendents of these people can drink their choice of cows or goats milk. The rest of the world, including Asia, Africa and native tribes, mostly can't handle much lactose, and are better off with goats milk, which is much lower in lactose.

Southern Europeans tend to be a mix, and may or may not have the DNA needed to handle lactose easily.

[ThePythonicCow]

but there is no debate among people who take science seriously

Reminds me of the claims of the so called concensus of the dangers of man made global warming.

In a word, or two, b.s.

[ThePythonicCow]

Let me guess -- you have some ancestry that is not entirely Northern European, and so have some degree, more or less, like 80% of the worlds population, of lactose intolerance.

[org.whodat]

Don't confuse, confused people with facts.

Everything this person has posted is the truth. But you burlapers may believe and do as you wish

[ThePythonicCow]

Though, on second thought, my guess doesn't make much sense, as lactose intolerant usually have more problems with pasteurized milk than raw milk, because pasteurizing milk kills the enzymes in it that aid digestion.

[Mase]

In science there is no consensus. It’s either fact or it’s theory. The many benefits of pasteurization have been established since the 1930’s. The Birkenstock wearing “natural” foodies have always denied this fact and I fully support their right to drink whatever they like. They don’t however, possess the knowledge to back up their nonsensical beliefs, which is why there is no debate.

[ThePythonicCow]

There were too many pronouns in your post. I could not figure out if you were agreeing with the position of Mase, against raw milk, or disagreeing.

[P8riot]

Now that’s interesting. We are northern European (father’s side Prussian, mother’s side Welsh), never had any problems with raw milk of any kind. I’ve even drunk yak milk. Never even had so much as a cold. We get our own milk (all unpasteurized) from our Nubian goats, once in a while we get raw cows milk from a neighbor. Our 5 yr old loves it, and he has never had anything worse than an ear ache. We also raise grass finished beef, free range broilers and layers, and hogs all on 7.5 acres. We just don’t buy commercially processed meats and dairy products.

[ThePythonicCow]

Mase wrote:

In science there is no consensus.

Earlier Mase had written:

but there is no debate among people who take science seriously.

You claim "no debate", but then deny that it's a matter of concensus. You're playing word games.

I should know better than to play, but I'll give it one more shot.

Good science is good theory, validated by good experimental evidence, always open to new conflicting evidence and better theories. If you aren't open to new, conflicting evidence, then you're too closed minded to be a good scientist.

As to the case for raw milk being healthier, follow the two links on my Freeper home page, copied here for your convenience. They should lead you to rationally presented discussions of the tradeoffs of raw and cooked milk. If you claim you don't need to read them because you already know the answer, then I've been a fool for wasting even this much time discussing this with you.

---

RawMilk.org

RealMilk.org

---

By the way, I don't wear Birkenstock's. Right now, I'm wearing Redwing steel toed work boots.

[ReignOfError]

In the interests of full FR disclosure, have you ever had raw milk?

I have. Two species, in fact -- straight from the cow, and straight from the goat. The goat milk was unappealing, in part because the goat's grazing area included wild scallions Ew.

I didn't detect anything magical about it. The normal grocery store 2% pasteurized, homogenized is fine for me. But while it doesn't appeal to me, I don't see the government interest in barring it. Yes, raw milk is gonna carry some risk, the same way any raw produce does. So require a warning label.

[org.whodat]

There were too many pronouns in your post. I could not figure out if you were agreeing with the position of Mase, against raw milk, or disagreeing.

Try this, Mase did not state a position. He stated known medical fact. But if you wish to drink raw milk, have at it. I was born on a farm and drank it for years, also ate farm butter and made it. The only milk I drink today is powdered milk and that is mostly with corn flakes. However, I do drink a quart of butter milk every couple of months. LOL

[ThePythonicCow]

Our 5 yr old loves it,

One lucky kid there.

[ReignOfError]

Though, on second thought, my guess doesn't make much sense, as lactose intolerant usually have more problems with pasteurized milk than raw milk, because pasteurizing milk kills the enzymes in it that aid digestion.

You can't "kill" an enzyme. An enzyme is a chemical compound, a protein to be specific, not an organism.

There are bacteria in milk that live in the gut and aid in digestion. Prominent among those is Lactobacillus acidophilus. When you see yogurt advertised as having "active cultures," that means live bacteria; and that's why women with yeast infections are often advised to eat yogurt as part of their treatment. The antibiotics that kill the yeast infection also kill the bacteria that aid in digestion, and yogurt replenishes them.

[ThePythonicCow]

He stated known medical fact.

Ok - so you agreed with Mase.

My sense is that your so called facts are propaganda.

But I doubt I have the time or patience to convince you or Mase of this.

If you are interested, see my two links above, or the following links:

• http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/
• http://www.mercola.com/2004/apr/24/raw_milk.htm
• SUPPLEMENTAL REPORT IN FAVOR OF RAW MILK

[ThePythonicCow]

You can't "kill" an enzyme.

You can cook it to the point of destroying it. Good grief.

[ThePythonicCow]

One interesting twist is suggested on this page: http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/raw_milk_safety.html:

Raw milk from cows fed diets heavy in grain, soybeans and cottonseed meal, etc., apparently cannot effectively protect itself from pathogenic infection. Everyone agrees, it must be pasteurized.

Heating milk renders it less capable of defense against subsequent infection. With the destruction of its tiny bacterial lactic acid factories and other heat sensitive anti-microbial substances, it can no longer protect itself as well.

To repeat: without the minerals and nutrients from a diet of fresh green grass that millions of years of evolution have coded for, the milk is just not made with the normal bevy of bactericidal ingredients designed by Nature to stifle unwanted microbial growth.

Know the source of your raw milk and demand that it be from grass-fed animals. Preferably organic.

In short - perhaps raw milk from grass fed cows is safe, but not raw milk from grain fed cows.

[B Knotts]

Agreed. I have dairy goats, and have drank it unpasturized a time or two, but don't get why people want "raw milk" so badly. I prefer to pasteurize it, given the various nasty things that can occur from not doing so.

I do think people should be able to buy it if they want to...I just don't see why they want it, I guess.

BTW, goat milk (and cheese) is excellent if you use the right feed: a decent leafy grass hay (not Timothy hay) and Goat Chow. Anything too high protein, and you get the "goaty" taste.

[org.whodat]

The antibiotics that kill the yeast infection also kill the bacteria that aid in digestion, and yogurt replenishes them.

True, that is the same reason I drink butter milk. Except I don't have an infection, don't have those parts, there is just good bacteria in butter milk.

[Calpernia]

Related:

http://209.157.64.201/focus/f-chat/1572002/posts
Small dairyman shakes up milk industry

[Mase]

You claim "no debate", but then deny that it's a matter of concensus. You're playing word games.

You're looking for 'gotcha' where there isn't any. I said, in science, it's either fact or it's theory. Facts are not determined by reaching a consensus. There is no general agreement nor is there a judgment arrived at by most of those concerned.

Of course, times may have changed. It's appalling what passes for research these days.

Good science is good theory, validated by good experimental evidence, always open to new conflicting evidence and better theories. If you aren't open to new, conflicting evidence, then you're too closed minded to be a good scientist.

The internet is filled with new conflicting evidence. Conflicting evidence is what drives grant money. I don't need to be open minded to know the vast majority of it is utter rubbish. I spent too many years doing it the right way to allow a bunch of charlatans to tell me otherwise. That doesn't mean I'm not open to new and better theories. They just better be based on sound science.

As to the case for raw milk being healthier

I suppose you can make a case for just about anything. I'll read through your links but, unfortunately, I'm not optimistic there will be any good theory or new evidence proving raw milk is healthy. I've just seen too much of it under a microscope.

[Calpernia]

Raw milk ping

[CougarGA7]

In the interests of full FR disclosure, have you ever had raw milk?

Straight from the teet. Never cow though.

[endthematrix]

"ever had raw milk?"

No, but the bathtub cheese didn't sit well...

[endthematrix]

[CougarGA7]

I cannot break into uncontrolable laughter over that since it would give away my age.

[sandyeggo]

I grew up on raw milk. It is delicious! It’s milk like milk used to be once upon a time, where the cream rises to the top so you have to shake the bottle before you pour.

[ThePythonicCow]

I'll read through your links but, unfortunately, I'm not optimistic there will be any good theory or new evidence proving raw milk is healthy.

Don't worry. People seldom find what they aren't open to finding.

[ThePythonicCow]

Do you run a 'raw milk' ping list? If so, I'd like to be included.

[Calpernia]

Mine is agri.

[ReignOfError]

I do think people should be able to buy it if they want to...I just don't see why they want it, I guess.

Yeah, I'm with ya there. There's a kind of cult movement surrounding raw milk.

My dad never had dairy goats per se. He had quarter horses, and the goats were there to eat down the underbrush, making more room for the horses to graze, and to keep the horses company.

The milk was just a bonus -- and it wasn't very good, because they never paid much attention to the goats' diet. The goats ate wild onions, which I know can give milk an off taste. They almost certainly ate poison oak, ivy and sumac. I don't know what that does to the milk.

Apropos of nothing, I learned how to handle a charging goat. If they try to butt you, just grab the horns and turn them like a steering wheel. Goats have enormously strong necks back-to-front, but not so much side to side. Grab the horns and hang a right, and they go down with little effort on your part. Do it a few times in a row, and you establish Alpha status and they'll leave you alone.

When that's done, if you want, you can pee on a fence post to mark your territory, but I thought that was a bit over the top.