Posted on 04/11/2008 12:16:58 PM PDT by CottShop
I suppose a lot of people wonder why a loving God would keep Himself so hidden and unseen when so many people it seems are looking for Him. Some people I suppose wonder why God doesn’t just make Himself known to everyone and ‘just let them decide’ after His physical revelation is made clear?
First off I want to point out that for God to make Himself physically known to us, God would have had to have been physically with everyone right from the beginning of creation, to the present, as people are born every single second, in great numbers, and people would constantly need to be seeing Him personally. Secondly, I want to point out that God was in fact with a great many people- physically and undeniably, for a very long time, and yet, they still refused to believe in Him.
You might be thinking ‘Yeah, but they (the Israelites) were then left alone while Moses went atop the mountain, and they ‘just forgot’ and became scared, and so temporarily lost their faith- that’s understandable.’ I would disagree. God had lived with them, performing one supernatural miracle after another in their presence, and yet, what should have been far more than enough to satisfy them for a lifetime, was quickly forgot once God was separated from them?...
...I will make the claim here, that it is perhaps easier to serve a God who must be sought, than it is to keep serving a God that is constantly with us, and it is perhaps even easier, and it certainly takes a more genuine heart, to find a God who is partially hid than it is to seek a God that is here physically with us.
Sounds strange, I know, but let me explain...
Read the rest at http://sacredscoop.com/?p=766
(Excerpt) Read more at sacredscoop.com ...
Just as people want to focus on the bad and say “where is God”, I see evidence of Him every day. In my children, in ill people and children who heal it seems overnight, people who avoid death by inches, simply looking at a sunset...
ping
Agree. I see evidence of God everyday, especially in my children who are both gifts from God to us.
Remember “Doubting Thomas” and what Jesus said to him.
God has not left us alone. For those who accept (believe) Christ, He gives the Holy Spirit (which is God). For all who haven’t accepted Him, there are many things that point to Him: the Bible (God’s Word), the heavens and earth shows His handiwork, and believers accounts of miraculous life changes. God has not left us, man has left God. When the fall of man happened in the garden, man did as he pleased. Now man is so hardened and messed up with everything in this world today, that he cannot see God. They search for answers everywhere, but constantly reject the answer that God has set forth right in front of them: accept Christ.
Our existence is proof enough for me.
How do you know that your deity is the correct one?
because he is the only diety that has been here, proven to have lived and died and rose...your protestations notwithstanding....
That's actually not an argument, nor even a good start at one.
If the question is serious, for it even to make sense one must assume the sort of supernatural world that would be required for God, or gods. And thus it is not at all an argument against the existence of God.
Case for a Creator has answers for those that seek some scientific “proof”.
If you find someone’s fingerprints all over a “crime” scene, you don’t assume they self assembled there by accident.
He also put us in a very good spot to see those fingerprints throughout the universe.
“Privileged Planet”
Psalm 19
The complexity of a leaf alone convinces me of the existence of God.
These are all good thoughts folks, and I agree- but I’m not so much focussed on the ‘proof’ for God in my article, but rather on why God is hidden to a world that doesn’t know Him personally. We Christians know God isn’t hidden after salvation (or even to an extent before salvation as the Holy Spirit was leadign us to Christ), but I guess I want to try to flesh out an arguement that refutes the claim that “IF Only God were visible and performing God-Stuff in front of us all on daily basis- for all to see- then the world would be much more apt to seek Him”
When someone makes claims such as that- they are insinuating that God must not really exist- which really is the core of hteir arguments- but it gets dressed up in “IF ONLY God were visible- why then we’d all beleive”
There is a philisophical and logical reasons for God being less visible than He once was, and this is really what I’d liek to flesh out a bit more- I guess hte title of my post doesn’t reflect what I’m seekign to undertake in the post
Prove that God doesn’t exist...Didn’t think so..
[[If you find someone’s fingerprints all over a “crime” scene, you don’t assume they self assembled there by accident.]]
Excellent point, and one I have been making in ID/Evolution arguments for awhile now (only you worded it much more succinctly than I do- My clumsy attempts at describing evidences for intelligence in nature are summed up perfectly in what you just said here)
excellent points dweller- God does indeed confirm His existence in many ways both to those who honestly and objectively seek answers, and more so to those of Us who have taken that leap of faith and found Him to be exactly what He promisses us He is. The evidence for believers is all around us and manifested in many ways- and indeed- it’s not God who left us, but us who left Him and refuse to cede any of the evidneces He clearly gives- always explaining away the eivdneces with nothign but assumptive arguments that have nothign more solid than guesses about past events to support htem.
I will be back much later tonight/early moring- and wil lread all that is posted- I’m not ignoring them, It will just be awhile before I get back to the htread.
Two books you need to read:
http://www.amazon.com/Case-Creator-Journalist-Investigates-Scientific/dp/0310241448
and if you’re anything of an astronomy/physics buff, you’ll get a HUGE kick out of this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Privileged-Planet-Cosmos-Designed-Discovery/dp/0895260654
The first delves into many difference scientific disciplines, and the second is an examination of cosmology showing that our planet is placed specifically where it needs to be, and the laws of physics exactly fine tuned, so that we can live and DISCOVER God’s universe.
As a recovering alcoholic I unknowingly worshiped a false god for many years. Mind you, I didn't think of it in those terms, but with sobriety I came to recognize that indeed, I had let alcohol become the center of my existence, and all things were peripheral to it. When I wasn't drinking, I was consciously or subconsciously thinking about my next opportunity to drink, and the bar was my altar. As I cleaned up my act, not only did I rediscover the religious traditions tht my parents had taken great pains to raise me with, but I also discovered a spiritual component that filled a void in my life I'd been pouring booze into for a big portion of my life.
In any case, about a year or so into my sobriety I experienced some moments of doubt...I remarked to a friend that I could really use a miracle to dispel my doubts and reinvigorate my faith. My friend pointed out that I'd been sober for a year...and for a person who scarcely went a day without drinking in the 17 years before that, I was indeed living a miracle.
God is with us and all around us, and his fingerprints are pretty much there to be seen if we only choose to look for them and ask His help in recognizing them.
Sound’s like the proverbial, not seeing the forest through the trees.
This was written by Francis Collins who was head of the Human Genome project.
Your question is a profound one, and one not easily answered.
Paul tells us in Romans that God has revealed himself to all mankind by His creation. The more we learn of the complexity of the cell, the basis building block of life, them more we can appreciate that.
Genesis says that man was made in the image of God. Most commentaries agree that the scripture is talking about the characteristics of man which sets him apart from the rest of creation. The ability to think abstractly and to create: art, engineering, science, mathematics, etc.
Still, Jesus said that he spoke in parables so that, hearing, they might not hear. In other places, he said, “He who has ears, let him hear.” It seems that God is willing to reveal Himself when we have “ears to hear.” That’s how it was in my life. I did not have a personal experience with God until I got down on my knees, humbling myself, and asked God to show me if He was there. Within two weeks, I was transformed, my view of the world was completely changed, and without my trying to change - without any indoctrination (I wasn’t going to church or under the teaching of any instructor) - it was a change I did not expect.
After the fall of Adam and Eve, the Bible says God called out, “Adam, where are you?” In a sense, man is hiding from God. Until we are willing to humble ourselves before the God of all creation, we are in rebellion to Him, and it seems to me that He refuses to force Himself on us. Instead, He calls to us, in a voice we can hear down in our souls if we will humble ourselves and recognize our need for Him.
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
Just followed that link you put up and if you really believe that guy then your system of epistemology is really strange.
His first two points are fine, his third and fourth are not.
“Third, there is the question of whether we have a reason for our knowledge. We can know some things without being able to lead others to that knowledge by reasons. Many Christians think God’s existence is like that.”
This is otherwise as “proof my by say so”. It does have legitimacy, hell we use it in courts all the time...but we also realize that by itself it is not proof. Saying that you saw the guy who raped her is no where near as strong as DNA for example.
He’s also right again on is 5th point that philosophical proofs can be as good as scientific proofs but he wasn’t talking about philosophy, he was talking about the existence of some intelligent entity.
He believes the Universe is 14 billion years old which will be a problem for those who think differently.
Every school of thought is a 'problem' for one who thinks differently, that is the nature of thought and opinion- each person forms their own.
BTW, see you are new.. interesting screen name, but it may be a shock that you aren't a 'token' atheist, there are many here- contrary to false stereotypes of Conservatives.
DNA and the JCL on which it runs certainly is proof of intelligence, if nothing else.
Well that, and the babelfish in my ear.
When people look for proof, Luke 16: 19-31 always comes to mind:
The Rich Man and Lazarus
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
” ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “
I will get back to this later, if that is OK.
I know what you are getting at. Not necessarily the proof of God, but why he chose to be less visible. In the Old Testament He spoke to people, "walked" with Adam in the garden, showed Himself through incredible ways (pillar of fire and cloud to guide the Israelites). In the New Testament God became flesh and dwelled among us. Jesus Christ was/is God and taught and did miracles as proof. Disciples were able to perform miracles as proof and also spoke in the languages of other men so that all understood at once. Now that the written Word of God is complete, there is no need for signs and wonders. God charged those who love Him to fulfill His great commission and tell others of Him. It is our duty out of love and obedience for our God that we are to do it. God is not as "visible" as before, but it is our duty let Him show through us to others.
Bible verses don’t count as evidence
“why God decided to remove His presence when it would seem that most people would accept Him if He were to be present dwelling among us.”
I believe this is where the free will comes to play. If God was here with us 24/7, in our faces, we would have no “choice” but to accept him.
Instead, he leaves us “hints” along the way. Look at how perfectly the human body was put together, just our brains alone. Our children, our earth, the way everything seems to work perfectly together (except of course when man comes along and messes it up).
I believe He wants us to choose Him with our own free will, nothing more, nothing forced.
Faith.
Amen!
The greatest trick the devil ever played was to convince man he doesn’t exist.
And I would add....the Bible.
Which one?
“He believes the Universe is 14 billion years old which will be a problem for those who think differently.”
I have total faith in the Bible being the word of God. Genesis states the world was created in 6 days.....
However, I do not know what exactly He thinks a day is. I do believe He put in the 6 days wording for us so that we may try to comprehend the story.
What is the percentage of brain we use? 10? What are we up to now? If we only use such a tiny fraction of our brain, how on earth could we expect to know a fraction of what He knows?
Which one’s have you read? I’ve read a few (not in entire),as have friends, but whenever I (or we) came across something significant (or they), we would take out the Bible’s and compare, out loud, the same verse.
Bottom line....they may have “different words”, but same jist.
Have you read Romans 1:20?
EXACTLY right. There is nothing I can add to that. Well said.
It's called Faith for a reason.
thanks for the ping!
[[The more we learn of the complexity of the cell, the basis building block of life, them more we can appreciate that.]]
I agree absolutely- as MrB states, God’s fingerprints are founf in all areas of nature- even down to hte tiniest IC cells
[[Still, Jesus said that he spoke in parables so that, hearing, they might not hear. In other places, he said, “He who has ears, let him hear.” It seems that God is willing to reveal Himself when we have “ears to hear.”]]
Good point.
Neat Testimony Rocky- God certainly does change fro mwithin eh? & Nothign we do either- That’s the loving work of the Holy Spirit who sanctifies :)
Yeah Joe- I was saved early in life- was real sick till 17- then after lifesavign surgery I felt great and well, kinda went mental doign drugs and drinking & just partying heavey till around 32 or so when after blackign out a number of times, this one night I was workign a wedding as waiter & smashed out of my mind on drugs and drink- blacked otu again- started destroyign the kitchen- owner called my dad who came to get me out of there & I ‘saw’ a shape comming at me & thoguht it waw the cops- really ended up hurting my dad pretty badly- I attacked My ownj fathewr for crying out loud- but he prevailed and wrestled me to ground- Well, when I sobered up- that was that- no more drink for me- or so I thought- couple of years later- got back into it- but mercifully, my disease is in the stomach, and after a coupel of weeks on the drink again- I couldn’t stand hte pain anymore- now I can’t even touch a drink without pain and vomitting thankfully- but along the way, up from rock bottom, I ‘rediscovered God’ again- like you- and now looking back, I think of all the wasted years I had running from Him & just wanna kick myself.
anyway- not to drone on abotu vices- I widsh I’d never started them in the first place- bvut just wanted ot say thanks for sharing
True- it seems obviosu to us, but to unsaved people, it certainly does seem as htough God can’t be seen.
JCL?
I’d certainly love to hear what ya got to say on this keeper
[[God is not as “visible” as before, but it is our duty let Him show through us to others]]
Yeah I hear ya Dweller- and that is of course fien with me and I’m glad to do so- but I’d like to udnerstand a bit better by tryign to see the other side of hte coin on the issue too- I know God reveals Himself to htose who seek and all that, but those who state they ‘would believe ‘if only’ God were more visible, sorta have a bit of a point- I think perhaps more might believe- while htere’d still be the hardcore unbelievers that wouldn’t beleive no matter what
[[I believe this is where the free will comes to play. If God was here with us 24/7, in our faces, we would have no “choice” but to accept him.]]
I think He could be present with there still being free will- it’s just that p4eople wouldn’;t have the excuse that “Because I can’t see Him I won’t believe” anymore if He were present
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