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Is Ogling Women a Form of 'Harassment' & 'Abuse'?
GlennSacks.com ^ | 7/21/08 | Glenn Sacks

Posted on 07/23/2008 10:38:53 AM PDT by PercivalWalks

In the recent www.feministing.com post Two-thirds of Egyptian men admit to harassing women, Jessica Valenti quotes from Reuters:

Nearly two-thirds of Egyptian men admit to having sexually harassed women...and a majority say women themselves are to blame for their maltreatment, a survey showed Thursday.

The forms of harassment reported by Egyptian men, whose country attracts millions of foreign tourists each year, include touching or ogling women, shouting sexually explicit remarks, and exposing their genitals to women.

"Sexual harassment has become an overwhelming and very real problem experienced by all women in Egyptian society, often on a daily basis," said the report by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights

Valenti adds:
83 percent of Egyptian women reported having been sexually harassed, almost half of these women said the abuse occurred every day. Yikes.
Details of the report by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights can be found here.

My problem with what Reuters and Valenti wrote is a problem I often have with feminist claims -- harmful acts are mixed together with harmless ones. We are given a seemingly alarming statistic without knowing which part of the statistic is comprised by harmful acts and which part is comprised by harmless acts.

In this case, we are told that the harassment being reported includes "touching or ogling women, shouting sexually explicit remarks, and exposing their genitals to women." Pardon me, but there is a hell of a difference between touching/groping/"exposing genitals" to women and ogling women.

For one, ogling women is natural and harmless. Many women enjoy the fact that men are demonstrating that they are attractive. Many women I've known have boasted about the ogling and/or remarks. Reuters calls the harassment "abuse," but merely being ogled is in no way "abuse."

Does anybody really think that a man who ogles an attractive Arab woman like Emmanuelle Chriqui (pictured) is a "harasser" or an "abuser"? All it really means is that he's male and has a pulse.

If, however, most of this sexual harassment is groping or exposing genitals, then I think Egypt has a real problem. If most of it is just ogling, then this report means little. I do not see the forms of harassment broken down in any of the media reports or Valenti's report. If anybody knows of where I can find the breakdown, please let me know.

I feel the same way about the alleged "blaming" of women for the harassment. Such blame often angers feminists, and Valenti seems to agree. Again though, the "blaming" is not very meaningful unless we know what kinds of acts we're talking about. For example, it is ludicrous for a man who has exposed his genitals to a woman to blame her for what he did. This is similarly true with groping. In both cases, the men deserve to be punished, regardless of what the women were (or were not) wearing.

However, if we're only talking about ogling, the rules are different. I've always found it silly the way some women go way out of their way to dress so that men will notice them and be attracted to them, and then pretend to be "offended" when men look.

Cultural traditions in Egypt push women towards dressing conservatively, so I'm not sure how much women's mode of dress fits in here. I traveled some in the Arab world in the mid-1980s, and my experience was that some women dressed in a very Western manner, while others dressed in a very conservative, Moslem manner. In the major cities, it was more of the former than the latter, and the reverse in the countryside.

On the larger issue, the way women are treated in certain parts of the Muslim world is appalling. One example, from when I traveled in Morocco:

I was walking down a street and a veiled woman was walking on the same sidewalk as I was, coming the opposite way. Suddenly she turned down into a doorway, kneeled down, and pulled her robes over her.

I was only 19-years-old and didn't know a damn thing -- I thought she was sick, or injured, or in trouble. I went up to her and tapped her on the shoulder and tried to ask her what was wrong. (This was in Morocco, where much of the population speaks French, and at the time I spoke French fairly well, so she probably was able to understand what I was saying).

As I talked to her, she seemed to be increasingly agitated and she waved her hand at me asking me to go away. After a while, I left, with misgivings.

Afterwards I was informed by a couple other Moroccans that since I was a Westerner, were she to look me in the eye or in any way interact with me, she would be branded a whore. Seeing her afraid like that was a sad and moving experience.

Glenn Sacks, www.GlennSacks.com

[Note: If you or someone you love is faced with a divorce or needs help with child custody, child support, false accusations, Parental Alienation, or other family law or criminal law matters, ask Glenn for help by clicking here.]


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Society
KEYWORDS: feminazism; feminists; girlwatching; ogling; savethemales
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1 posted on 07/23/2008 10:38:53 AM PDT by PercivalWalks
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To: PercivalWalks

2 posted on 07/23/2008 10:40:09 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA (Truth : Liberals :: Kryptonite : Superman)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: PercivalWalks
I've always found it silly the way some women go way out of their way to dress so that men will notice them and be attracted to them, and then pretend to be "offended" when men look.

Yep.

4 posted on 07/23/2008 10:42:18 AM PDT by Skooz (Property taxes are immoral)
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To: PercivalWalks

Laugh while you can, at U.S. corporations, looking, when interpreted as ‘ogling’ is a capital offense today.


5 posted on 07/23/2008 10:43:35 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Are you ready to pray for Teddy?)
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To: PercivalWalks
Is Ogling Women a Form of 'Harassment' & 'Abuse'?

Well, that depends on if she is ugly or not.

Wait.

Oh! They mean harrasment and abuse for the woman!

Never mind.

6 posted on 07/23/2008 10:44:08 AM PDT by Knitebane (Happily Microsoft free since 1999.)
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To: Coffee200am

Ping to an appreciator....


7 posted on 07/23/2008 10:45:15 AM PDT by ErnBatavia (...forward this to your 10 very best friends....)
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To: PercivalWalks

Luke Ogle of Eglingham


8 posted on 07/23/2008 10:45:42 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Are you ready to pray for Teddy?)
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To: PercivalWalks
Reminds me of a King of the Hill episode where Hank goes to a college campus to get his niece out of a cult. A girl with short hair and d cups walks by Hank wearing a t-shirt 2 sizes too small and bumps into him and says “yeah they're breasts, get over it!”
9 posted on 07/23/2008 10:45:54 AM PDT by normy (Don't take it personally, just take it seriously.)
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To: Knitebane

This thread desperately needs more pics.


10 posted on 07/23/2008 10:46:05 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA (Truth : Liberals :: Kryptonite : Superman)
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To: Red in Blue PA

11 posted on 07/23/2008 10:48:16 AM PDT by maggief
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To: PercivalWalks

12 posted on 07/23/2008 10:48:28 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Are you ready to pray for Teddy?)
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To: PercivalWalks
Ogal this nerd


13 posted on 07/23/2008 10:48:52 AM PDT by al baby (Hi mom)
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To: Red in Blue PA
Not according to Mrs L it isn't.

L

14 posted on 07/23/2008 10:50:00 AM PDT by Lurker (Islam is an insane death cult. Any other aspects are PR, to get them within throat-cutting range.)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Just waiting for the first smart aleck to post a Helen Thomas pic.


15 posted on 07/23/2008 10:50:04 AM PDT by the_devils_advocate_666
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To: the_devils_advocate_666

Wow, before I could even finish my post!


16 posted on 07/23/2008 10:50:35 AM PDT by the_devils_advocate_666
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To: PercivalWalks

Well what should we expect from a bunch of ragheads...or excuse sheet heads! Nothing surprising there! Wonderful how the femenazis here just gloss over that.


17 posted on 07/23/2008 10:50:51 AM PDT by Devilinbaggypants (Spread the word...stop the madness...drill now...expand refining capacity and screw the sheet heads!)
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To: PercivalWalks
You know, she's really cute.

Not beautiful or gorgeous, but really cute. Really really cute.


18 posted on 07/23/2008 10:52:07 AM PDT by Skooz (Property taxes are immoral)
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To: maggief
ogling not Ogre-ing
19 posted on 07/23/2008 10:52:26 AM PDT by normy (Don't take it personally, just take it seriously.)
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To: Skooz

Not beautiful?????

Have your eyes checked.


20 posted on 07/23/2008 10:53:53 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA (Truth : Liberals :: Kryptonite : Superman)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Women and minorities most affected.


21 posted on 07/23/2008 10:54:00 AM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: PercivalWalks
I've always found it silly the way some women go way out of their way to dress so that men will notice them and be attracted to them, and then pretend to be "offended" when men look.

These are usually immature and silly girls (of all ages) who dress that way on the off chance that a Justin Timberlake or a Brad Pitt will be around to ogle them...not you. ;)

22 posted on 07/23/2008 10:54:08 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("One man's 'magic' is another man's engineering. 'Supernatural' is a null word." -- Robert Heinlein)
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To: PercivalWalks
I've always found it silly the way some women go way out of their way to dress so that men will notice them and be attracted to them, and then pretend to be "offended" when men look.

They dress to be attractive to men that they WANT to attract, and are offended when a man that they don't find attractive dares to think he has the right to view the merchandise.

23 posted on 07/23/2008 10:54:14 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell)
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To: Red in Blue PA
This thread desperately needs more pics.


24 posted on 07/23/2008 10:55:29 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Are you ready to pray for Teddy?)
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To: the_devils_advocate_666

did not have to wait long did cha


25 posted on 07/23/2008 10:55:39 AM PDT by al baby (Hi mom)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Upon further review, I have to agree. Beautiful.

And cute.


26 posted on 07/23/2008 10:56:13 AM PDT by Skooz (Property taxes are immoral)
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To: PapaBear3625
You nailed it! It's like jealousy. women want you to be jealous if the guy flirting with them is ugly. If he is handsome then your a jealous a-hole.
27 posted on 07/23/2008 10:57:07 AM PDT by normy (Don't take it personally, just take it seriously.)
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To: PercivalWalks

I wouldn’t even notice somebody Ogling, as long as he kept his hands to himself, his mouth shut, and his clothes on. Jeez.


28 posted on 07/23/2008 10:58:07 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Tax-chick's House of Herpets. You shed your skin, too!)
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To: Tax-chick

His mouth shut?

What if you walk by and, after you are about 15 feet away, he says “Daaaayyyyyyuuuuuuuuuummmmmm!”


29 posted on 07/23/2008 10:59:47 AM PDT by Skooz (Property taxes are immoral)
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To: PercivalWalks

“always look..never stare” - ol rude and crass


30 posted on 07/23/2008 10:59:49 AM PDT by rrrod
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To: Tax-chick

There’s an art to sly ogling, however. Mrs. Flycatcher claims I haven’t mastered it.


31 posted on 07/23/2008 11:00:41 AM PDT by Flycatcher (Strong copy for a strong America)
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To: PercivalWalks

Sad that the story is about ogling but one of his examples is pure racism. Women get treated like garbage by Egyptian men but if a western man talks to them they are a whore?

Seems like this is nothing but a muslim agenda story. If women were properly covered then men wouldn’t lust after them.


32 posted on 07/23/2008 11:02:12 AM PDT by driftdiver (No More Obama - The corruption hasn’t changed despite all our hopes.)
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To: maggief; al baby

You two are sick. Just sick. LOL


33 posted on 07/23/2008 11:02:31 AM PDT by rabscuttle385 ("When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat." Ronald Reagan)
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To: Skooz

You saw Zohan???


34 posted on 07/23/2008 11:02:44 AM PDT by lilycicero (Hee hee)
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To: Red in Blue PA; Skooz
Not beautiful????? Have your eyes checked.

Actually, it's an interesting topic to think about -- what defines "beautiful," vs. "gorgeous," vs. "pretty," vs. "attractive," vs. cute, and so on? Just to further the conversation, here are a couple of additional shots of Ms. Emmanuelle Chriqui.

Which of the words best applies, and why? I have to agree with Mr. Skooz on this one: she's very, very cute. But beautiful? No -- IMO somebody like Grace Kelly epitomizes "beautiful" -- and Ms. Chriqui doesn't come close to that.

35 posted on 07/23/2008 11:02:57 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: PercivalWalks

Yes and no. The yes part occurred today while I was riding public trans to college. A guy who was probably in his 30’s just kept staring at a young girl of about 13 or so, it got to the point where I stood up and blocked his field of view. Not really a crime but it was a bit disgusting. There was nothing else he could have been looking at either, unless he was into older black men, the man kept lowering his head to see up the girls shorts.


36 posted on 07/23/2008 11:03:25 AM PDT by aft_lizard (One animal actually its eats its own brains to conserve energy, we call them liberals.)
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To: Flycatcher

Mrs. Flycatcher and Mrs. Skooz must share notes.

While channel surfing a few weeks ago, I let the channel stay on QVC for about 3 seconds while Lisa Robertson was on showing jewelry or something. Busted. She still gives me grief for that.

And don’t even let her get up early and catch me watching Robin Meade on Headline News.


37 posted on 07/23/2008 11:03:56 AM PDT by Skooz (Property taxes are immoral)
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To: Red in Blue PA
We all had to attend Sexual Harassment Training when I was in the AF. One of the standards for Sexual Harassment was giving a woman a look that she interpreted to be offensive. I asked the female instructor to show me an example of a look she found offensive and she said she couldn't (or wouldn't). I've run into several women who felt any “look” from me was offensive. I could have gone to jail!!! :o )
38 posted on 07/23/2008 11:04:09 AM PDT by mbynack (Retired USAF SMSgt)
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To: PercivalWalks

39 posted on 07/23/2008 11:04:15 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Are you ready to pray for Teddy?)
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To: lilycicero

No. Why?


40 posted on 07/23/2008 11:05:20 AM PDT by Skooz (Property taxes are immoral)
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To: PercivalWalks

One thing I HATE about getting older is that I don’t get ogled anymore.


41 posted on 07/23/2008 11:05:32 AM PDT by peggybac (Tolerance is the virtue of believing in nothing)
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To: Skooz

I’d say she’s gorgeous but further study will be required. Perhaps even a date, oooops can’t do that.


42 posted on 07/23/2008 11:05:32 AM PDT by driftdiver (No More Obama - The corruption hasn’t changed despite all our hopes.)
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To: PercivalWalks

Very cute pose, what is up with this article?


43 posted on 07/23/2008 11:05:48 AM PDT by gathersnomoss (General George Patton had it right.)
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To: PercivalWalks

“If, however, most of this sexual harassment is groping or exposing genitals, then I think Egypt has a real problem.”

Egypt isn’t alone in this as I can personally state that Morocco may put them to shame in the female abuse department, especially if she is blond and a foreigner. The groping, although shocking, was mild when I compare it to my terrifying run while being chased through the streets at night (even with an escort). And there’s more, much more. There are many, many completely uncivilized inhabitants in these countries out in public.


44 posted on 07/23/2008 11:07:32 AM PDT by Melinda
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To: Skooz

That is the actress from Zohan......


45 posted on 07/23/2008 11:07:51 AM PDT by lilycicero (Ogling movie)
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To: Red in Blue PA

They get dressd up like that and go out inpublic and expect men not to ogle them. That’s cruel and inhumane.


46 posted on 07/23/2008 11:08:12 AM PDT by fella ("...He that followeth after vain persons shall have poverty enough." Pv.28:19')
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To: Skooz
What if you walk by and, after you are about 15 feet away, he says “Daaaayyyyyyuuuuuuuuuummmmmm!”

I would assume he'd seen a cool sports car, and turn around to look at it. Or, if I were (as today) wearing my Free Republic t-shirt with my name on it, I'd figure he was overwhelmed at seeing the famous Tax-chick in Real Life :-).

47 posted on 07/23/2008 11:08:52 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Tax-chick's House of Herpets. You shed your skin, too!)
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To: PercivalWalks
Is Ogling Women a Form of 'Harassment' & 'Abuse'?

Depends on who you ask. The whole sexual harrassment business that followed the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas waste of time was predicated on the notion of how it is perceived BY THE RECIPIENT.

48 posted on 07/23/2008 11:14:40 AM PDT by DustyMoment (FloriDUH - proud inventors of pregnant/hanging chads and judicide!!)
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To: Flycatcher
Mrs. Flycatcher claims I haven’t mastered it.

LOL! If you say, "Wow, she's pretty!" or "How did she get that blouse on?!?" you're a little lacking in subtlety.

49 posted on 07/23/2008 11:14:47 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Tax-chick's House of Herpets. You shed your skin, too!)
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To: PercivalWalks

Ans: Nope.


50 posted on 07/23/2008 11:16:43 AM PDT by Paladin2 (Huma for co-president! (it ain't over 'til it's over))
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