Skip to comments.Obama's eligibility issue: Why the British Citizenship argument is a red herring
Posted on 06/27/2009 6:13:50 AM PDT by Polarik
In a recent press conference, Les Kinsolving of World Net Daily finally got to ask the question that we've all wanted to ask Obama, "Why won't you show us your real birth certificate?" Press Secretary Gibbs response was startling. He said that the Obama Administration had put a copy of it, one with a raised Seal, on the Internet. That response, more than any other mentioned to date, should have gotten people to their feet shouting, "NO, it's NOT a real birth certificate!" Or, at least, it's not the long-form original.
In effect, Obama, by way of his Press Secretary, just admitted to committing felony document fraud as what is posted on the Internet is a forgery, a false government identification document in violation of Federal statutes.
However, there is another school of thought, a group most notably headed by Leo Donofrio, who, upon hearing that question and Gibbs' reply, would have gotten to their feet shouting, "NO, it's Obama's British Citizenship, stupid! To Hell with the birth certificate." According to Donofrio, the fact that Obama committed felony document fraud is not only irrelevant, but is "without a doubt - a conspiracy theory of epic proportions.
"Nobody can deny that its a textbook conspiracy theory. Regardless of whether he has a genuine long form BC saying he was born in Hawaii, the concept that the COLB is a forgery would certainly concern a vast conspiracy to defraud the American people. Conspiracies do exist, but they have a very bad reputation and the media can spin them as kookery with ease."
After pursuing the document fraud arument for over a year, I have encountered many people who, at first glance, seem to be earnest-sounding individuals who also believe that Obama should not have been elected President. Ar first, they appear to be on the same side as the "Birthers," but, unlike those who want to see Obama's real, original birth certificate, they go out of their way to do everything in their poweer to dissuade anyone from wanting to see Obama's real, original birth certificate. If I've seen it once, I've seen it a thousand times. There is no other issue that bothers them more than the prospect of Obama having to release his actual birth certificate.
And, when yhey reach the point where it seems like the push to see it is actually gaining traction, they come out even harder than before, mercilessly cracking on Birthers as fools and wingnuts, which is exactly what Obama trolls have done for over a year now.
I submit to you, and I have the experience to make this statement, that Obama and his Campaign did not, by accident, admit that, when Obama was born, his father, Obama Sr., was a British citizen. NO way, Jose. Almost everything that Obama and his minions have done to date, has been deliberate and planned. That tidbit in Factcheck about his father's citizenship was not an "Oops" at all. It was a big, fat, smelly red herring, and the people who are pushing the British Citizenship argument to the exclusion of all other arguments -- particularly, the fake COLB -- are blowing smoke up your tailpipe.
Mr. Donofrio's lastest skreed is about Kinsolving's question and how "WND dropped the balla" with respect to Donofrio's pet theory. Leo insists that Kinsolving should have asked Gibbs the following question:
"During the election, then Senator Obama published a statement at his website which said that his birth status was governed by the British Nationality Act of 1948. Can you please tell the American people how a natural born citizen of the United States can be governed at birth by British law?"
OK, for the last time, I'm going to break this issue down, as I see it for what it really is, so that everyone clearly understands the implications of pursuing the British citizenship route to challenging the "natural-born status" of Barack Obama, to the exclusion of all other actions taken.
To begin with, Leo Donofrio argues that what is on Obama's original birth certificate is irrelevant and that even hinting that the Internet COLB is bogus is a stupid conspiracy theory. According to the British citizen strategy, Obama admitted he was a dual citizen at birth and that eligibility advocates have simply questioned whether that makes him ineligible to be President under Article 2 Section 1 Clause 5 of the US Constitution.
Stop right here. Do not go any further until I reread these previous declarations:
Obama's original birth certificate is irrelevant.
Obama admits he was a British citizen at birth.
Eligibility advocates SIMPLY questioned if he is Constitutionally eligible to be President.
In other words, this is tantamiunt to saying it's an academic exercize in Constituional Law. Removing OBama from office is not the isue at all. Donofrio has made that point clear. It's all about setting a legal precident for a centuries-old Constitutional question that has been sideskirted by every court since.
OK, O'll go along for the ride.
let's say the judge rules that the Framers of the Constitution intended Article 2 Section 1 Clause 5 of the US Constitution to exclude dual citizenship. Does this mean that Obama knew he was ineligible? What Obama knew or did not know is irrelevant. The definition of NBC as it applied to dual citizenship at birth was never made. The precident did not exist. No harm. No foul.
Now what? There is no precident for what happens next. Does everything revert back to a previous date? What date?
None of the above. You know that the ruling will be appealed refardless of which way it goes. If it goes against the Plaintiff, you are not going to get it overturned by SCOTUS. You many not even get a hearing on it.
By the time it would go to SCOTUS, there's a better than even chance that Sotomayer will be sitting on the bench. You already know which way she's going to vote.
OK, I'll play along here and imagine what happens if it is upheld? What would SCOTUS do? They will say that Congress should have raised this issue during the cerification of the Electoral Count. The Court will then say it does not have the power to remove a sitting President - only Congress does. Then what? Obama sits on the sidelines and let Biden run things while Congress figures out what to do next?
Notic that the question of divided loyalties hasn't come up once in this discussion. Remember, THAT was the sole purpose of making someone who was born with dual citizenship ineligible to be President! If Obama had British citizenship at birth, he didn't have to swear allegiance to the Queen. Does it even make sense to talk about loyalties for a newborn, or now as an adult in already serving as President.
It does where Obama is concerned.
It should now come as no surprise to anyone that Obama has more loyalties to our enemies than he does to our allies. Obama has more loyalties to the Middle Eastern World than to the Western World. Obama has more loyalties to Dar al-Islam than to Dar al-Harb. Obama has more loyalties to his foreign investors than to his domestic supporters.
Yet what seemed like a big Constitutional crisis at first now seems to have fizzled out. Now, through all of these mashinations Obama gets a pass on ever having to show where he was born, when he was born, and to whom he was born.
What if Obama is actually the son of someone else? What if his father was born to Malcolm X or Frank Marshall Davis, as some theorize? Too bad, because you will never know that without seeing Obama's original birth certificate.
So, let's recap. Here are the two tenets of the British Citizenship makes Obama ineligible argument:
Obama's original birth certificate is irrelevant.
Obama admitted he was a British citizen at birth.
Obama is, therefore, a natual-born British citizen and is Constitutionally ineligible according to Article 2 Section 1.
If this court case should actually make it as far as the Supreme Court, and if it looks like he is going to lose the case, Obama will make a startling announcement!
Obama announces that the reason why he was withholding his original birth certificate is because he didn't want anyone to know that his mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, and his father, Barack Hussein Obama Sr., WERE NEVER MARRIED!!!!
Game over, Donofrio!
Prior to 1983, British nationality was transmitted from the father through one generation only, and ONLY if the parents were married in accordance with English Law.
In other words, folks, Obama was not a British citizen at birth. Obama might have been born with no citizenship at all if he was born in Kenya. and not Hawaii.
However, since the people who are pushing this strategy so hard, to the exclusion of evey other strategy, have said that his birth certificate is irrelevant and would make no effort to obtain it, Obama walks, free and clear.
Oh, I'm sure that he'll get tons of sympathy from the vast majority (if not all) of his fan base because they don't believe that marriage is even necessary to have a child.
This is the reason why we must continue to push Obama to release, not only his long-form "vault" certificate, but also the very same Certification of Live Birth that he had claimed to have made and posted on the Internet.
OBviously, Obama was not born in Hawaii, so the odds that he was born in Kenya are looking like a sure bet.
How many times do I have to say it?
I would like him out yesterday but the chances of getting that wish are slim to none. 2012 is the best case scenario.
But in no case were the legal beagles (or dingos) of Team Obama REQUIRED to present a legal document. Even if they had been, I am very sure that they could have come up with a for real Hawaiian COLB that would satisfy any court. A forged document on the internet is quite a different matter than one in a court of law. You say they "cited" the forged document, i.e., the one on the Internet. No judge would let that happen, without requiring them to present an actual document ... and neither would any opposing attorney.
More frustrating is that fact that Team Obama has managed to completely conflate the COLB with a Birth Certificate ... and not one person has directly called them on that ... not even the guy from WND.
You guys keep going on the forgery angle. Me and my gang are trying to get a law passed in some state that will demand actual documents from Presidential candidates to verify eligibility. That simply does not exist today ... leaving the Big Hole in the Constitution that Team Obama skated through.
Ain't nobody said stopping Obama was going to be easy. Knowing he's no good is a lot different than getting him in court to prove it.
One of the judges cited--without viewing anything other than the Internet forgery--that the Internet 'document' was so well viewed, twittered, etc. that the challenges was absurd. When will liars stop trying to float new lie after new lie to protect the affirmative action liar-in-chief?
It is prudent to pursue multiple paths of ineligibility rather than bet the farm on one path. You can bet that Team Obama is trying to cover their bases on all fronts.
The Indonesian and British citizenship theories are alike in one aspect and that is that the other countries’ laws and regulations are not binding on our courts. If the definition of natural born citizen is born in the U.S. to two citizen parents, then it doesn’t matter whether or not Obama Sr. and Dunham were married. The only relevant fact in that theory is that Obama Sr. was most certainly not a U.S. citizen. Therefore Obama Jr. was not born to two citizen parents. The marriage is irrelevant.
Birthers have favorite theories. Preferring one theory over another is a natural consequence of having such a diverse group of people, but that doesn’t mean that another birther’s theory is irrelevant or a red herring. Donofrio’s theory is relevant and valid. Polarik’s theory is relevant and valid. Both should be pursued to their end.
Likewise, those who have given up on removing Obama from office this term and instead want to focus on enacting state laws to establish a procedure for verifying eligibility are pursing a path to ineligibility. Their preferred method of ousting Obama is no less relevant or valid than any other method.
From the beginning, Donofrio has felt that Obama would NOT hide behind a VALID birth certificate that would repudiate him — unless it REALLY exists. Obama, when forced, would pop up with the Long Form, in his big “ah-ha!” moment that would back HIS claim and DESTROY ALL “birther” claims.
I disagree. IMO, Obama’s playing a bluff. Leo’s a card shark — he should know better. There’s plenty of people in Washington who know about the issues surrounding the Certification of Live Birth. Many are afraid of being branded a nut, or a racist, and are too cowed to speak out. The preponderance of evidence is overwhelming...
Quite frankly, I DON’T CARE which “birther” camp exposes Obama. The truth is the truth — may it set Obama “free” (or rather, lead to is impeachment and incarceration).
I think there's enough room for ALL of our theories, and do not think ALL of the other will fall apart if ONE is repudiated. Obama and his team has gone through extraordinary means to keep his birth certificate from public eye. He may be slick, but even if he says that Obama Sr was not his dad, he will still be seen as a fraud by a majority (except for his undying fans, of course) for letting the fraud of his Kenyan roots go on for so long.
I, too, do NOT think that Obama Jr. was born in Hawaii. Kenya is quite possible too — I've peiced together a day-by-day itinerary of how it was possible, including their probably air travel route on Pan Am back through the east coast to Washington state. But the Kenya theory requires more hoops for Ann and baby Obama to have jumped through to make it work. I think birth in Washington state or Canada is more likely, simply because of logistics. But, IMO, the preponderance of evidence is that Obama Jr was NOT born in Hawaii is overwhelming for those who GENUINELY take the time to look at the data. HOWEVER, in lieu of proof-positive evidence of birth in Kenya, Canada or otherwise, I use the term "THEORY".
Regarding the divorce, please reference all of the pages: Obama 1964 Divorce -- 13 Pages -- Merged
I spoke with the private detective who got the first parts of the 1964 divorce papers. I was also personally responsible for getting the second parts of the 1964 and 1980 divorce papers, from a very junior clerk at the courthouse that handles that old jurisdiction in Hawaii.
The “Circuit Court of the First Judicial Circuit” is the court Ann Obama went through for the divorce, which is now defunct. Judge Samuel P. King (who is in his 90s and lives in Hawaii) authorized a “knock and nail” notification of divorce to Obama Sr, who was in Boston at college. That notification was delivered via Air Mail on Jan. 30, 1964, to the address he claimed at the time at Harvard. That notification (SEE PGS 10-12 at the link above) was NOT answered by Obama Sr. As the divorce was for “grievous mental suffering”, Judge King automatically granted the divorce to Ann Obama EXACTLY 60 days from the original court date (Jan 20, 1964 t0 Mar 20, 1964). There was no forgery of Obama Sr’s signature that I'm aware of — in fact, there was NO signature from him AT ALL.
However, in speaking with the clerk, she indicated to me that the judge -SHOULD- have asked for a marriage certificate before granting a divorce. In Hawaii, divorce decrees are public record — marriage certificates are not. There seems to be a page missing from the 1964 divorce papers from the page count, but when I queried the clerk about it, she said it was a typo (I'm still unsure about that one...). It MAY be the marriage certificate, which may be part of the file, but not releasable -- but I can't confirm that.
It's POSSIBLE that Ann Obama: a) forged a marriage certificate; b) tricked the judge into accepting her word they were married; or c) was involved in collusion with the Judge to get the divorced to be granted. However, I've never heard in the 18 years from their divorce until his death that Obama SR ever denied they were married. Nor did he deny Obama Jr was his son.
I'm working with information that would be presentable in a court of law — previously-filed court papers would count. IMO, so does your forensics work on the COLB, once we get to that point in the legal process ... that is, once we can find a judge who is not corrupt and willing to review your facts before sealing his or her “No Legal Standing” stamp on the case...
Again, sorry for the previous post.
Two citizen parents? What if one or both was naturalized? What if both were born here, but the grandparents were illegals? Or naturalized? Where's the law on the subject?
The fact is, "natural born citizen" has never been defined by Congress or the courts. Therefore, one must assume it means "citizen at birth", as opposed to "not a citizen at birth but became one later via naturalization (a legal process)". Assuming Obama was indeed born in Hawaii, he was a citizen at birth for sure, per the 14th Amendment, and is therefore a natural born citizen.
It is understandable that Tonchen’s dismissive comment regarding the COLB forgery would offend you because you’ve invested countless hours and immeasurable effort to prove the COLB forgery. Clearly Tonchen is uninformed on that subject and hasn’t taken enough time to investigate it.
Let me say publicly that my posting Tonchen’s primer was never intended to dismiss or discredit your work on the forgery. Neither was it intended to portray the British citizenship issue as the only valid theory. Neither was it intended to imply that Obama has a valid Hawaiian birth certificate.
I support both theories/methods and think they should both be fully explored. Obviously people on this forum feel strongly about one particular path to ineligibility and that’s to be expected.
That is correct. A Supreme Court ruling is needed. Regarding your questions about naturalized parents etc., please search for and read the thread titled "Obama's Presidential Eligibility - An Introductory Primer" written by Stephen Tonchen and posted by me. Please post your comments and questions about it on that thread.
The Senate passed a resolution expressing their opinion that McCain was eligible. They didn't certify anything because they don't have the authority to do so. Only the Supreme Court can interpet the meaning of natural born citizen as used in the Constitution.
Thanks! The article I read here said ceritifed. Appreciate you clearing that up.
The Alinsky-Cloward-Piven crowd is counting on that. Their methods have always been focused on overwhelming our system of rules by making it impossible to live by the standards we set.
Pakistan was not on a U.S. no-travel list at that time. That claim has been debunked.
It was so easy for Americans to travel to Pakistan at that time that Pakistan was issuing 30-day visas at their airports.
I’m not offended by what Stephen said because he was wrong on the true nature of the COLB. Stephen was harping on one side of the issue because that’s what he chose to do. He was unaware of my research, it would seem.
Donofrio is another story entirely. He knows damn well what I’ve done and he’s purposely taking direct shots at me with his comments. People who know me know that I don’t take those attacks lying down.
I was unware that Donofrio is taking pot shots at you. You can be sure that I have your back on that one. I’ll check out what he’s saying and make any necessary/appropriate corrections via comments on his blog.
However, I've never heard in the 18 years from their divorce until his death that Obama SR ever denied they were married. Nor did he deny Obama Jr was his son.
Fuuny, he denied being married to Kezia when he married Stanley Ann. Whoever allegedly provided them with a marriage license was also lied to about Obama's existing marriage. Bigamy was illegal at the time, and if there were any special rules at the time that did not consider African nationals already married to African brides as "legally married," I haven't found any yet.
Plus, I didn't realize that you knew more about Obama's father than Obama knew himself. Were you traveling around with Obama Sr. from divorce to death, 24/7, 365 days a year? You would have had to be to make that claim.
In 1986, four years after his father's death, Obama went to Africa for the first time, to be confronted with the truth of his father's life and to meet half-brothers and half-sisters he never knew he had.
In Africa for the first time, Obama admits he was told the truth, perhaps for the first time in his life.
He recounts a conversation with Zeituni, his father's sister.
"Zeituni stopped walking and turned to me," Obama wrote in his autobiography. "'After your father went off to live with his American wife, Ruth … well, he would go to Kezia sometimes. You must understand that traditionally she was still his wife. It was during such a visit that Kezia became pregnant with Abo, the brother you haven't met. The thing was, Kezia also lived with another man briefly during this time. So when she became pregnant again, with Bernard, no one was sure who – ' Zeituni stopped, letting the thought finish itself."
When will we see Obama’s original birth certificate?
Obama is following right into line behind Clinton...
Bill Clinton, “I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.”
Barack Obama, “I was born in Hawaii.”
Re: “A liar? A fraud? A traitor? A usurper? A foreign national?
If the shoes fit.”
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