Posted on 07/07/2009 6:33:08 AM PDT by joeclarke
I was looking at a Free Republic post Is There Salvation Outside The Catholic Church which incurred an astounding reaction among Freepers. You won't see that kind of post in Huffington or Kos.
I am a former Catholic, now merely and simply a nondenominational "Christian" not bound, or aided by Protestantism or Catholicism. I received an excellent education in parochial grade and high schools, was an altar boy, and like most boys in the 1950's I was steered toward Catholic seminary. I did not go. Again, my parochial education, except for some of the doctrines, gave me an advantage in life which no public school, then or now, could have afforded.
Sometime after a bad experience, let's say, in Vietnam I started to search for The Truth, so of course, I found Christ, or He found me, or we did it together - not sure which. For the past thirty years, nevertheless, I have been on a spiritual journey which necessarily requires sorting out teachings, doctrines, catechisms, etc, but it all comes down to basically believing in Christ. Not a man, or a woman, living or dead.
After becoming Born Again I was like a reformed alcoholic condemning all of my Catholic upbringing, and faulting everything RC taught -even some of their Biblical teachings. In the simplicity of Christ I have learned to appreciate some of the elements of the RC, even in the Sacrifice of the Mass where Jesus, accordingly, is sacrificed again, and again, and again, which I totally believe is not Biblical [Hebrews 10]. Nevertheless, as I marched to Mass every day for 9 years in grade school and sung the hymns, and listened to a sermon from the Epistles and Gospels - at every Mass - I gleened something spiritual. The Eucharist, transubstantiation, the primacy of the Pope, the mystic powers of the Priests, the over veneration of saints, especially Mary - where as a kid, I would pray the Rosary to statue of Mary every night for years, probably did not help me to know about a "personal Jesus" for many years thereafter. He was only touchable by what the Catholics call "saints" who, according to them, is pretty impossible for the average Joe to become. According to the Bible, all believers are saints or "holy ones."
My question, "Are Any Catholics Saved?" is just as difficult to answer as "Are Any Protestants Saved?" The Episcopalians ordain gays and the Catholics have John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, and Nancy Pelosi, so we can induce that major denominations of whatever stripe cannot claim to be that sole church or Haven of Rest - if not only because they harbor so many members that are contrary to all that is called holy. The genuine Ecclesia (Church, or called- out ones) are those who are born again and bearing fruit which bears out their salvation - who may be hampered by some of their church's doctrine, yet not condemned by God for some or many misinterpretations of the Bible and the Spirit of God.
Can I condemn individual Catholics or Protestants who do not completely escape as I did because I think some or most of their doctrine is an abomination to God? I do believe individuals will be judged according to their faith, even if it is not perfect in every way, shape, and form. Mine isn't. Is yours?
How can someone believe that the Eucharist (which always means "thanks") in the Bible somehow is the consuming of Christ - when He is a spirit, and according to John Chapter 6, Jesus said, "He that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." We certainly need to "eat" Christ spiritually more than what can be offered once a week, or for many, once a year, at Mass. I am not going to pick at so many other Catholic doctrines, I don't agree with at this time, and I also cannot commend them for every good teaching they purport. It all comes down to whether the individual has faith in Christ, despite being confused by some of his church's man-made doctrines which do not allow for faith in the fullness of the Person of Christ.
Where did the Episcopalians get the idea that sodomy "is a gift from God," except from people like their newest female priestess who was elected by members who do not know the Bible from the Bagadavita? Protestantism which called the Roman Catholics "Antichrist" for centuries, has become more Antichrist than Antiochus Epiphanes.
Earnest Roman Catholics defend life, stay married longer, and best yet, oppose liberals, Islamic terrorists, Communists (except John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi's ilk) and have produced the likes of William Buckley and Pat Buchanan. They also venerate the Ten Commandmants, although Jesus commanded us to obey Two Commandmants. Love God, and Love Your Neighbor As Your Self.
It was not my purpose to exhaustively examine the intents of every Catholic's heart, but only to ask if some Catholics, like some Protestants, can be included in the real Church Of Jesus Christ. I say they can, but must be ever vigilant to Seek First The Kingdom Of God And His Righteousness.
Looking forward to an after life Purgatory (to literally purge sins) is not my idea of a a Saving Church, yet, the individual members may be surprised by a Father God who is more merciful than they have been taught.
Ask the Pope before it’s too late.
What I find interesting in reading this is that MY personal spiritual journey is leading me BACK to the Catholic Church.
I’m sure you will get plenty of very sincere responses, but do you really expect any human to actually know if someone is saved or not?
I’m a Christian and I find it offensive that one Church believes they are the ONLY way! The Bible simply says he who believes in ME will never die, you will not find ANY church by name,nor will you find the ceremonies found in any church, those are man made beliefs, which if you really think about hard and without influence of a church, says that you are following a man made thought and NOT the Bible.
You may, and probably will, get thousands of opinions on this question.
But if you are interested in the Catholic Church’s doctrinal teaching on this, I would direct you to study the “Catechism of the Catholic Church.” It is very easy to read and traces all of it’s teachings to Holy Scripture.
Prayers for your journey.
A quibble.
Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version)
36”Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
So Christ didn’t say to obey only one or two commandments, he stated that all the others hang on these two.
False.
It is a re-presentation of the same one-time Sacrifice on Calvary.
Only God can look upon the heart and see true repentance and acceptance of his gift.
As for humans, the early Church established creeds that were to affirm certains beliefs.
I believe that if a person affirms every line of the Nicene Creed, and does not hold any beliefs contrary to any line, they are a Christian as far as any human knowledge can know.
John 3:3
As Jesus in indivisible, so is his Church. Despite our sad divisions in this world, we can all look forward to the day when the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit will make the questions that you ask seem childish, and we will be one with Him and with each other in his Kingdom.
Colosians 2:2 and other places indicate that you can. That the Holy Spirit can give that Assurance "the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding".
Also Jesus Said in the Gospel of John "Truly Truly, I say to you, He who believes Has Eternal Life" - John 6:47 For one must Understand that Faith (belief) is the Gift of God. Therefore if you have Truly believed in Your Heart that your Sins are upon the Lamb of God, and paid for. Then, according to this verse - you have Eternal Life.
It is time to Believe and Live within that Assurance.
Yea, i’m okay with the catholic church except for all that hail mary stuff. There is a cult of saint worship in there that really seems to be an third rail in most congregations. I’d also like to point out all the catholics that I know personally are flaming obama freaks.
A fine article indeed and I thank you for posting it as it represents my views and the heresies the church allows in these latter days, you know them by their doctrines that are totally opposite the doctrines of Scripture. Both the Roman Church and most Protestest churches have abandoned Scripture as the source of all true doctrine and therefore have suffered heresies and heritics to destroy the faith of God by Jesus Christ our ONLY LORD and our ONLY Saviour.
Heresy is the hallmark of todays church AND the Lord God of Israel will not allow this evil to continue.
No lie is of the truth. Let God be true and every man a liar. Mankind lies from the womb. All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Sola sciptura.
The Chrurch needs to clense itself from tradition and mysticism and strange doctrines and return to the Scripture for doctrine lest the SON of God Jesus the Christ be angry and leave the religious behind at His rapture. The church is become as filthy as the world because of so much unbelief of the following warning of God the Holy Spirit;
2 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
There can be no revival unless the body of Christ returns to the Scripture for all God’s doctine and reproof and correction and instruction in rightiousness.
2 Timothy 3 (King James Version)
2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their’s also was.
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
I agree the bible says that. For myself, that is not proof, it is, as stated, faith.
1) Condemnation is above your paygrade.
2) "Escape"??? That phraseology presumes that the Churches and communities you reject are, in fact, wrong or evil.
3) Who elevate your thoughts to infallibility? You think (some of) their doctrine is wrong. Meantime, they think (some of) your doctrine is wrong. Unless you're going to claim personal infallibility you have no grounds for judging others' doctrine to be "an abomination to God". Your doctrinal dispute devolves to "your own personal interpretation of Scripture" versus "their own personal interpretation of Scripture".
From the Catechism: 1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper “on the night when he was betrayed,” [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189
You quote the “re-presents” but ignore the statement that the Eucharist is a sacrifice. The word I find interesting in your Catechism is “salutary.” It implies that without the Eucharist the salutary power would not be applied. You are sort of avoiding the crux of the issue by focusing on the “re-presents” and ignoring the notion of “sacrifice” and “salutary power” which is where the objection to your theology really lies.
The Bible also says the way to God (Heaven) is through Jesus... not through the priest. Have a relationship with Jesus (praying/speaking directly to him) not with an earthly human being (the priest). The Bible also says that when you pray to not just recite words but gives an “example” which is an example not the prayer that should be said over and over. We are to give praise, thanks, request and generally speak from our heart to God and not just reciting “Our Father Who Art In Heaven...”
First, one must understand that All Mankind Died when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit "In the Day you eat of it you will SURELY DIE". Romans 5:12 clearly shows that Adams act brought Sin and death upon the WHOLE Human Race.
One must ask the Question. What kind of "death" was it (since they did not die immediately)? The Answer is that it was a spiritual death.
The next question is "What was the Extent of this Spiritual Death"? The answer again is explained by the Apostle Paul in Romans (quoting the Old Testament)- "There is NONE who Seeks for God" "There is none who does GOOD".
Thus Mankind stopped Seeking God after Adam's disobedience. None does Good (which is affirmed by our Lord's words to the Rich Young Ruler "There is NONE GOOD but God")
Then the next LOGICAL conclusion is "How does anyone Seek God, if Mankind is dead in Trespasses and Sin"? The answer is Regeneration (a New Heart) and a New Mind (one that Loves God than one that runs away and hates Him).
If you Believe and have Faith - It is a Miracle of God - BECAUSE MANKIND BY DEFAULT IS DEAD.
Why must I first understand that?
I do not ignore that.
Holy Eucharist is the same sacrifice (on Calvary), re-presented.
It implies that without the Eucharist the salutary power would not be applied.
Such is your misinterpretation. The phrase "it's salutary power" refers to Christ's sacrifice on Calvary, the one-time sacrifice which is re-presented in Holy Eucharist.
It’s like asking if Pentacostals can be Christians.
So too says the Catholic Church.
Hi Joe,
Your Journey is similar to mine and has some way to go as does mine. From what I can see though the Catholic Church has kept it’s stance on moral issues while other denominations seem to be capitulating to the the morals of the day. This really does say a lot as the satanic forces of our day beat upon the walls and gates of the Catholic Church like waves crashing against a clifface, with little or no effect while other Churches succumb to the ebb and flow of the tide of opinion.
I still have problems with some Catholic ideas but what I realise is that although I may never overcome these problems or concerns the problems are essentially mine!
Blessings
Mel
Such is your misinterpretation. The phrase “it’s salutary power” refers to Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary, the one-time sacrifice which is re-presented in Holy Eucharist.
_______________________________________________________
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”190
So the continuous sacrifice of Christ (reconcile: “It is done”) is truly propitiatory — the act of the Eucharist forgives sins. Once again, I think you are soft pedaling the theology. I will say on your behalf that the theology is confusing (one sacrifice does not equal repeated sacrifices).
It is the Key to understanding the majority of the Scriptures. Without understanding the Death of Mankind, wrought by Adam upon the human race, the miracle of faith and what God has done, cannot be seen; The depths of Sin's terrible reach is grossly underestimated.
When one believes that they have made their own faith and belief, then the doubts about whether they are Saved and the lack of Assurance of that Salvation - abound.
When one believes there choice of God brings them Salvation, then, in the back of ones mind, one worries that a misstep could undo that Salvation (that one can UNCHOOSE). And indeed - that is where that Theology leads.
WHAT TO DO: Ask God, the Holy Spirit what "Surely Die" means". Ask what "He who Believes Has Eternal Life" means.
Be assured; for folks like us, the Greatest Teacher will answer.
Bzzzt. "Continuous" is your misinterpretation.
I will say on your behalf...
YOU will say on MY behalf? LOL I rebuke your efforts to stuff words in my mouth.
...(one sacrifice does not equal repeated sacrifices).
So what? This is not a question of "repeated" sacrifices.
Again, it is the one same sacrifice on Calvary, re-presented.
Our beliefs differ, thanks
Adue.
The answer to your question is simple but a bit of a different direction than you might expect.
On Judgement Day, will you have to answer for another?
Will your priest or pastor answer for you?
Answer - no, you will stand alone before the most perfect God and give an account for all that you said and did and all that you did not say and do.
And in that terrible moment, when you are measured against perfection, will anyone be able to intercede on your behalf to cover your transgressions? There is only one who can - Jesus.
So focus on doing what is right by Jesus and let God worry about separating the sheep from the goats.
Gotcha. The sacrifice isn’t continuous or repeated, it is re-presented, no synonyms allowed. You are hiding behind semantics and definitions without explaining your semantics or definitions. If the sacrifice was done once and was efficacious in absolving us of our sins, why is it continuing by being re-presented? Get to the crux of the matter, pun intended.
Protestants by and large believe that communion is an act of remembrance — a serious thing — but that it has no effect beyond the remembrance and it does not re-present the sacrifice of Christ in that it does not resacrifice him or continue his sacrifice.
Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the sacrifice of Christ.
No it isn't...It is a representation of the Last Supper...Unless you guys are nailing something to a cross at every Mass that you haven't told us about...
You don't get to make that decision.
And again, on the topic of the Catholic Church, you are wrong.
I for one do not like arguing over religion.
I was Protestant and at 10 gave my life to Jesus, went to very good Bible teaching churches. Proud of that.
23 years ago, my journey carried me to the Catholic Church.
I am grateful, complete and happy.
When I came into the Church, I said, “My journey is complete, I have the whole truth. Not a piece of the pie, but the whole pie.”
The Catholic Church is the one true Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. It is complete.
It is full of sinners, imperfect believers, remember Judas. She is full of Judas’.
Certainly do...The eating of the flesh and the drinking of the blood is NOT the Crucifixion...God made that clear in the scriptures and He told me to study the scriptures...
Your re presentation of the Crucifixion is NOT eating the flesh as you claim...That's as clear as a crystal...
The ingorance of Catholicism in so many of these posts should be shocking but it is “par for the course”. The one thing I’ve learned about the internet is that so many people think their opinion is fact.
So the Body of Christ is full of hell-bound sinners, eh???
You should have spent more time in the scriptures before you crossed over...
Nope. Your statement is pure hubris.
The eating of the flesh and the drinking of the blood is NOT the Crucifixion...
For those whose interest in this question is true and charitable:
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."190The entirety of the teaching of the Catholic Church on the Eucharist is too rich to be glibly captured in any one post.
This portion of the Catechism goes into great depth.
I am not one to interpret other people’s words on a message board, but when I read rose’s post, it seemed that she was saying we are an imperfect people. I know I am a terrible sinner. That is why I need Jesus Christ.
You were able to reach that rather accurate understanding of her post because you approached her words charitably.
Obviously, whoever wrote your catechism is wrong...Just because someone made it up doesn't make it true...
Partaking of communion is the remembrance of Jesus' murder and suffering on the Cross...The breaking of the bread is the remembrance of Jesus broken body during that murder...The communion is NOT the Cross...The 'fruit of the vine' represents Jesus blood that was shed from his body...It is NOT the piercing of the spear into His body to complete the murder...
You are NOT re presenting the killing of Jesus...
PLUS, Jesus is not, nor was he ever a sacrifice for you to give...He was given for a sacrifice (by God) FOR YOU...
LOL
For disagreeing with your own personal interpretation of Scripture?
Christ instructs us otherwise. John 6
I cannot judge whether a person is going to hell, only God does that.
Honey child I told you I attended Bible teaching churches and I have spent all of my life in scripture. Since being Catholic, I do not skip over scripture but intake the whole.
Yes, the Church is full of all kinds of sinners, some grave, some not.
So is your church. No church is without it’s Judas’.
Apparently his Catholic education wasn't very good at all.
I also would like to point out, since some only read the sinners part. Yes we are sinners, some saved and some not.
The church is full of us all, and so is yours.
All churches are.
We are saved by Christ and need him everyday to walk the walk and talk the talk.
While doctrines are laid out and are available for our understanding in the old and new testaments, the basic truth is that “churches, denominations etc. as commonly understood are in fact man's attempt at execution of these doctrines. Some like one tenet better or more than others etc. Some are in fact false.
A personal, relevant and real relationship with Jesus Christ (All God, the Creator and all Man, the Sacrificial Lamb and Saviour is the only status of importance. Attendance and/or membership in a “church” are irrelevant compared to this.
This relationship must be entered into HIS way, not ours, otherwise it is a matter of convenience and likely false.
Seek and you shall find. God Bless
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