Posted on 10/08/2009 4:46:46 PM PDT by DecoyJames
I do not like being called a terrorist, especially by Obama.
"I have been banned from one political forum because I attacked Obama's "change" of mind in regard to the Patriotact or the wiretap bill. I have been attacked by conservatives for my call to end the Patriotact."
(Excerpt) Read more at politicallore.com ...
I always thought the Patriot Act was two seperate words.
The Patriot Act is simply a gross expansion of government power that was around for years before 9/11, the attacks simply providing the opportunity to jam it through Congress (they never read the bill before voting on it). I’m not naive enough to believe it’s somehow vital to national security when the same people who shoved it down our throats also work hard against secure borders and refuse to name the enemy fr fear of “profiling.” Political correctness and Orwellian expansion of government do NOT make us safer, simply make us all suspects to the Federal government.
Patriot act has pretty wide effect. What in particular do you want to remove?
The whole thing.
I want to be able to smoke cloves again too. I know, serious crime.
I do not like to think of it as two, it is an acronym. An unfair one, at that.
Our biggest problem at the moment is to remove the Executive, his running dog lackeys, and get some adults into place to make sure things happen correctly.
Frankly, I don't trust the Obamistas either ~ they seem much more like "the other side" than they do us. Hopefully they'll see fit to resign, but if we can hang on to the 2010 election maybe they'll go peacefully.
This provision?
Alien Terrorists and Victims
The Act contains a number of provisions designed to prevent alien terrorists from
entering the United States, particularly from Canada; to enable authorities to detain and
deport alien terrorists and those who support them; and to provide humanitarian
immigration relief for foreign victims of the attacks on September 11
Technically it’s the USAPATRIOTACT. Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001. Gotta love the Orwellian use of “Patriot” though, because even if you believe it is necessary, it’s about as un-American and un-patriotic as they come.
This one too?
Other Crimes, Penalties, & Procedures
New crimes: The Act creates new federal crimes for terrorist attacks on mass
transportation facilities, for biological weapons offenses, for harboring terrorists, for
affording terrorists material support, for misconduct associated with money laundering
already mentioned, for conducting the affairs of an enterprise which affects interstate or
foreign commerce through the patterned commission of terrorist offenses, and for
fraudulent charitable solicitation. Although strictly speaking these are new federal crimes,
they generally supplement existing law by filling gaps and increasing penalties.
New Penalties: The Act increases the penalties for acts of terrorism and for crimes
which terrorists might commit. More specifically it establishes an alternative maximum
penalty for acts of terrorism, raises the penalties for conspiracy to commit certain terrorist
offenses, envisions sentencing some terrorists to life-long parole, and increases the
penalties for counterfeiting, cybercrime, and charity fraud
How about section 802, which basically makes anyone a terrorist if the Feds declare you on, for any crime whatsoever?
Or this one?
Foreign Intelligence Investigations
The Act eases some of the restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering within the
United States, and affords the U.S. intelligence community greater access to information
unearthed during a criminal investigation, but it also establishes and expands safeguards
against official abuse. More specifically, it
Or this?
! encourages cooperation between law enforcement and foreign
intelligence investigators
I fail to see how spying on everyone via supercomputers in Langley while not protecting the borders and having our military (including the National Guard) overseas nation building has anything to do with a “war for our survival.” The Patriot Act is big government personified, yet another power grab by Washington but they give us flimsy Boogymen and stories later proven false to justify it.
The poster want the entire bill gone. I’m questioning his powers of reasoning that seem equivalent to a grade school kid that wants to take his ball home.
amen
OH... so they should be able to see which books I have checked out, or bought at the local bookstore. They should be able to wiretap me with a warrant from some judge 500 miles away?
Come on...
The whole bill is filled with junk.
Who could argue with such poignant analysis?
We are done punishing the Republicans. Now it's time to both punish and dispose of the Democrats. Afterwards maybe we can pursue our enemies and send the Mexicans back to Mexico.
I want it abolished too, along with the Military Commissions Act. Conservatives went ballistic on Clinton over Echelon, yet when Bush basically did Echelon on steroids, many of the same conservatives spun for him. That kind of big government surveilance program is not only totally against what this country is all about, it’s unnecessary to protect against terrorism. We knew about Bojinka in 1995, we knew the hijackers (many of whom were already arrested on terrorism charges in Israel, and came here under their real names) were in the country. John O’Neill tried desperatly to warn anyone who would listen in the FBI, but was ignored. You’re telling me a trillion dollar intelligence apparatia had no idea this was coming, especially after the infamous “Bin Laden Determined to Attack in America” memo? C’mon. If conspiracy kooks like Alex Jones and William Cooper said months beforehand that Osama bin Laden would launch terror attacks in the US, then certainly the CIA, FBI, NSA, ect should’ve known.
The Patriot Act is anything but. Same as RICO.
RICO was suppose to be used against traditional organized crime and now regular Americans are prosecuted under the RICO.
The Patriot Act didn’t solve anything. We already had laws on the books to go after Super Criminals like Al Qeada.
It was enacted to give the appearance of doing something, in the aftermath of 911.
However, it’s main flaw was that included overly broad provisions that include Americans and remove your right to council.
Further, it makes clear you are not to discuss anything about your charges under the Patriot Act.
We can shoot terrorists pretty easily in another country. We can train other countries to shoot terrorists and provide incentive for doing so.
But laws that make anyone a criminal and remove your rights.
In fact, habeus corpus is removed and you are automatically in jeopardy as a presumption.
All it takes is for the government to declare you in violation and voila’, you are a terrorist and you have virtually no recourse.
Others here are going to into detail about the risks.
I am all about killing or capturing terrorist by hook or crook. I don’t care. But, when laws can used in a casual manner against Americans then those laws are out of whack.
Flame away.
I voted for candidates I felt best represented my views. Which meant voting for Chuck Baldwin (which was a pain in the ass to vote third party write-in) and Lou Barletta for Congress. I’m not going to vote Republican when the name on the GOP ticket will give me the same policies as the Democrat, just with different rhetoric. I’m not a whore, I have a mind of my own. Last time I checked my rear end in the mirror, I didn’t have “Property of the National Republican Party” branded on it.
Real opinion here; one that totally freaks out and pisses off the libertarian "wing" that hangs here.
I defy you - one and all - to name one friend or family member that has been arrested because of this.....and I'm not talking about getting the Zot from some internet forum - I'm talking about getting cuffed and slammerized.
To laugh in the face of those that call conservatives terrorist is the worse thing you can do to them...
Just to begin with some high profile abuses:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/03/fbi-tried-to-co/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5053007/
http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/special/s0601/PDF_list.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/10/AR2006031002027.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/29/AR2006092901334.html
http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/3209
Another favorite of mine, the Patriot Act used against pot dealers.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2001992821_smuggling29m.html
The Republicans never gave you that.
So, don't patronize me.
There is a difference and it's obvious to everyone who can count!
shhh.....especially dont mention “able danger”
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/11/nation/na-iraq-vietnam11
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/24/bush-deficit-vs-obama-deficit-in-pictures/
http://business.theatlantic.com/2009/08/imagining_the_deficit_under_president_john_mccain.php
Arguing economics with a libertarian is like trying to out fear monger a neocon. Not a wise endeavor.
I’m willing to listen, but after all the bellyaching I’ve heard of the years regarding the Patriot Act, I still haven’t heard or seen anything about it that bothers me all that much.
I'd like to know this too.
Gotta' do better than that.
Your second source is L A Times. They have been known to cheat on their postage payments and overcharge their advertisers based on falsified circulation numbers.
You really gotta' do far better than that and it shouldn't be all that hard ~ try Pravda ~ they beat the dickens out of L.A.Times.
You missed the part in Heritage where they admit things are always murky when a previous administration overlaps a new regime and they are in the same fiscal year. At the same time that's just a cop out for doing a full QUARTERLY ACCOUNTING ~ that way you can differentiate the two, and any new regime, with control of Congress, can UNDO what the previous administration did and thereby avoid buying into the SAME OLD SAME OLD. The fact that OBAMA DID NOT DO SO means he owns whatever sins "W" commited.
Please read those guys carefully. They have several anal-ysts I've worked with over the years (in other venues) and they tell fibs about economics ~ and trie to undo them in the footnotes. I think they have both your legs in a pulled leg box.
The Atlantic glosses over Obama's call to bankrupt the coal using industry before the San Francisco Chronicle Editorial Board in January 2008.
Word got out fast. Industry retrenched worldwide. Financial institutions fell first, even before housing.
No, "W" didn't do that. Obama did.
I see what you are saying...
The problem is... the patriotact will never expire, it will never go away.
The sunshine clause is gone.
That is my BIGGEST problem with it.
I don’t like the Patriot act because it is an abuse of political power and, as far as I am concerned, a violation of the constitution. I will not trade freedom for safety. Give a benevolent government power over you and as soon as the leaders change you get screwed. Bozo will abuse this power as he has others.
This country has terrorists and patriots. Obama and his friends (Ayers, reverend Wright, and others) are in one category, and the majority of prior-military Christians are in the other category.
Give you an example, if AlQaida is dropping airplanes all over the place and mailing you anthrax, what is your "essential liberty"? Would it be "essential" that you be allowed to fly planes all over the place or mail rou to your enemies?
Obviously not given the circumstances.
Giving up your life for NONESSENTIAL LIBERTY is, of course, foolish. Freedom involves having the ability to select through our own institutions what to do about the enemy.
Your little buddy Obama is a damned fool. He does not believe we the people should elect to do anything through our institutions ~ he believes we should do only those things ordained by his antiquated 19th century Fabianism.
Brookings is one of the largest and oldest globalist think tanks, if anything it’s one of the strongest Israel-first think tanks. And the LA Times, despite being to the left of Pravda, is a major newspaper. And regardless of the sources, the stories and facts are accurate. I noticed you didn’t attempt to debate them. And I think you missed my point with the Heritage numbers. Basically, Bush was an absolutely horrible President not just in terms of foreign policy but economically... and yet Obama is on pace to dwarf him.
Whenever government is given power out of people’s fear and reactionary politics, it NEVER gives that power back.
Now, with respect to LA Times, when they robbed the postman and deprived USPS of revenues they were dipping into my pocket.
Certainly even a Libertarian can understand that the victim of a mugging does not have to respect the opinons of his mugger.
We have to take events one step at a time, and at no point in his Presidency did "W" have a Conservative Congress ~ it was packed with RINOs and Democrats, and the margins in the Senate were always so close the RINOs could dictate the outcomes. In the end people like you threw away our majority in the House of Representatives because you were revulsed by the homosexual antics of a couple of Republicans.
At the same time you blindly embraced and continue to embrace the pedophiles and homosexuals who CONTROL the Democrat House in an iron grip more appropriate an S&M studio.
No, Libertarians have to attack the primary force in Congressional politics the last 70 years ~ the pro-Communist, anti-American, Leftwingtard, crypto-fascist class enemy.
After you've done that we'll talk issues.
What the hell are you talking about?
All of the globalist think tanks all to the left in that they constantly advocate policies that lead to statism both here and abroad. There’s absolutely no difference in the long term policies of the CFR, Trilats, Brookings, ect. The only real (and small) differences come from the second and third tier thinktanks and lobby groups like AIPAC, CAIR, the CNP, JINSA, ect.
You do realize that Obama is the worst possible choice in any election of any kind any time in history.
Funny, I thought I was voting for President. How about next time, instead of just voting for Obama-lite simply because he picked a VP simply to placate either the (depending on your view) the conservatives or the women voters, you vote for the best candidate? I didn’t vote for or against Palin. If it were a toss up vote and I couldn’t decide between the candidates, then maybe a VP would be a deciding factor. But when was the last time you’ve had to decide whether a Dem nominee was better than the GOP nominee? They are either far worse, or slightly worse. Either way, I’m not a brainwashed zombie who simply votes for the candidate with the R after his name. I’m more than happy I went through the hurdles to vote for Chuck Baldwin, and I’d gladly do it again. Look at it this way, my vote made as much a difference as your partywhore vote did.
We were talking about your vote ~ you threw it away and now you are trying to tell us Obama isn't really so bad because he's only a little bit worse (3 X as worse) as "W" when it comes to financial matters.
Well now you will have Obamacare and if there's a dispute over your bill IRS will be sending you to a federal prison.
I kind of like the current system where we all go to small claims court and work these things out ~ that's what you voted against ~ small claims court ~ and what you voted for ~ federal prison!
Frankly, voting for a Democrat for the remainder of this century should not be considered a moral possibility for any rational person, and voting for a third-party person instead of a Democrat as a way to punish the Republicans should be a cause for seppuku!
You still don’t get it. Whether you vote with your mind or as a drone, neither of our votes mattered. Your liberal still lost to the socialist. Guess what chief, it’s people like you who keep the GOP drifting left and losing. Keep voting for the R instead of the candidate and the GOP will never be what it was or could’ve been.
You watch, McCain will pass on in the near future ~ and well within the time limit of any Presidency. We could have had Sarah and instead we’ve got Goober!
lol whatever helps you sleep at night. If you’ve got to vote for a candidate hoping he’ll die quick so the VP (whom you probably had never heard of six months prior) could take over, odds are it’s a losing ticket.
We are prepared ~
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