Posted on 01/23/2010 4:41:59 AM PST by The Ignorant Fisherman
Where do you believe Israel’s place is in the future... They are God’s chief vehicle for the nations of the world?
Let's look at verses 15,16 -- "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangle, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain (see 15) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." This is describing the same event in Matthew 24:30,31 -- Lord's return, trump and angle(s), the taking up, etc.
There is one elect, it consists of all believers, both Gentile and Jewish believers. Paul talks about this at length in Romans. The Jew is one who is circumcised in heart not flesh (Roman 2:28,29). That the unbelieving Jews have been broken off (Rom 11:20). The believing gentile has been graffed in among them (Rom 11:17) God can graf them in again (Rom 11:23). "He is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise in not of men but of God." (Rom 2:29)
(I should think you'd want to show me exactly where in the Bible the so-called pre-tribulation rapture of "non-Jews" takes place. If it's not the one described in Matthew 24 and 1 Thes 4, then where? It would have to be before the "Day of the Lord", since this will occur only once.)
I Never said “non Jews rapture”. The church (Called out assembly was first occupied by Jews.. Later on by gentiles - they were added. The church is made up of Jews and Gentiles. This Group will be removed at the Rapture to meet Christ in the air. THEN.. Will Matt 24, Rev 6-19 etc will take place. This time called Jacobs trouble, the 70th week of Daniel, The tribulation will be a time when Almighty God will begin to stir up His chosen NATION Israel and bring them to repentance Romans 10… Then All of Israel will be saved at Christ second coming seven years after the rapture.. At this time Joel 2-3, Zech 9-14, Rev 12- Satan and the world will go after Israel to try to annihilate them to discredit all of God’s promises to them. The Church is no where found in Rev 6 -19. Only when they come back to earth with Christ from glory seven years later!
With no church (the body of Christ) the 2 witnesses and the 144,000 Jews (Rev 7,11,14) will minister to the world. “You will be hated of all nations (the Jews and their gentile converts). The 2 witnesses will be burning lights – lamp stands unto the whole earth. Their ministry will replace that of the church. They are the elect of this period. The nations will be judge according how they treated Israel at Christ’s return Joel 2-3, Zech 14, Matt 25:31-46.
Look how Jewish Matt 24 is. It pertains to the Children of Israel even though he is talking to the disciples before there even was a church (some 60 days before Pentecost)
I showed you point plank that Matt 13 verses in the Parables about the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven how that the Lost would be removed FIRST by God’s angels and then His elect Israel/gentiles would be regathered. Dan 12 etc
It is true in the church age the elect is Jew/gentile but after the church age the elect are Israel. You just can’t through out all of God’s promises to and for them.
You have to see things through the eyes of despensationalism… if you don’t, you and I will go around forever. I appreciate your time and love the interaction.
We both know the same Lord… yet one us is wrong… and I know it’s not me… lol
God bless you my brother!
David
So you are saying that Christ is coming back twice?
1 Thes. 4:16-17 -- "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangle, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive shall be caught up together will them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
This is describing same events as Matthew 24, Rev 7 and Rev 14, not an earlier rapture. All the elements of the post-tribulation rapture described in 24:29ff are there: in the clouds, with a shout, with a trump, etc.
As Paul stresses throughout Romans "For he is not a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:29). These are the elect--believers--and have always been the elect. (Anyone who insists on keeping the law, will be judged by the law and will come short of the glory of God.)
Since you insist on two different raptures, you must show where the first rapture is mentioned. Once again, it is remarkable that it would not be clearly identifed in any new testament account. Or maybe I missed it. So where in Revelation are these two different raptures, which you insist on, mentioned? (If it's mentioned anywhere, it should be mentioned in Revelation.)
You are aware that the events of Rev 6,7 are the same as Rev 14? The later chapters are steeped in metaphor (e.g. reapings).
I know that many are expecting a pre-tribulation (secret) rapture of the type depicted in the "Left Behind" books and movies. (This is doubly weird because it borrows the imagery of Matthew 24:40,41.) The consequence of all this is that many will be sorely disappointed if/when they discover that they will have to endure the tribulation. Many will fall away (see the parable of the sower). Sound doctrine isn't complicated, but it may be distasteful.
He’s Meet Him In the Air (clouds)... Rapture
He’s coming WITH Clouds... 2nd coming
In the Air to meet His living and past saints of His body the Church (1 Cor 12) (Pentecost to present).
Then we will come back with Him in Glory at His second coming!
In.. With.. both!
You are aware that the events of Rev 6,7 are the same as Rev 14? The later chapters are steeped in metaphor (e.g. reapings).
utt ohh... Those events 4 horsemen, sealing of the 144,000 JEWISH witnesses,Trumpet Judgements, 3 Woes, the 2 witnesses, The …BEAST really happen my friend!... don’t explain it away. God does not say things to medophor us. He is called the Faithful and True… He want’s us to know..
That is why you cannot see my position on this. These things all happen AFTER the Rapture...of the church (1 Cor 12)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.