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Farah calls Newsweek on 'lie'
World Net Daily ^ | February 15, 2010 | Joseph Farah

Posted on 02/15/2010 7:32:03 AM PST by urtax$@work

WASHINGTON – WND Editor and Chief Executive Officer Joseph Farah today publicly called on Newsweek Editor Jon Meacham for a retraction of a statement in the magazine falsely claiming Farah is a proponent of a "conspiracy theory" that Barack Obama was not born in the United States.

"It's just a bald-faced lie and misrepresentation of anything and everything I have written and said about the eligibility issue," Farah said.

Farah is issuing the retraction demand,........

(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...


TOPICS: Conspiracy; Politics; Society
KEYWORDS: article2section1; birther; certifigate; colb; conspiracytheory; farah; medialies; newsweak
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This type of action against 2nd Tier OBAMites may yield some results. Below is my original suggestion of starting such actions.

Could this be the Birth Certificate submitted by Obama's Grandmother?

Sunday, December 13, 2009 9:21:01 AM · 70 of 72

I am beginning to wonder if suing Factcheck.org might be a better idea. Forcing them to prove that “FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate.”

Yes, i have been thinking same. A plan to rightfully discredit the 2nd TIER. I define the 2nd TIER as those in positions (outside of federal govt) who have direct involvement in print media/internet media, ergo; newspapers/ bloggers / who cover for Obo. I am sure other Freepers here can better flesh this out into a mission statement to cover most bases.

An objective would be to force 2nd TIER members 1 by 1 to retract or correct previous inaccurate statements.

I got the idea when i remembered Larry Klayman's -Judicial Watch hound the Clinton Admin. by getting Sworn Testimony by some in his inner circle. I don't know how you "require sworn affidavits " of anyone, but he got the likes of George Step-on-all-of-us to answer questions under oath and posted such on the J.W. web site.

1 posted on 02/15/2010 7:32:05 AM PST by urtax$@work
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To: urtax$@work

“FREE THE LONG FORM!”


2 posted on 02/15/2010 7:33:27 AM PST by Dryman ("FREE THE LONG FORM!")
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To: LucyT; BP2; hoosiermama; rxsid

.......Ping.....


3 posted on 02/15/2010 7:35:17 AM PST by urtax$@work (The best kind of memorial is a Burning Memorial.........)
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To: urtax$@work

ID checks are only for the little people


4 posted on 02/15/2010 7:57:23 AM PST by sten
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To: urtax$@work
The thing that amazes me most is the willful ignorance shown by MSM pundits of the difference between a Certification of Live Birth and a Certificate of Live Birth or actual long form Birth Certificate. Hawaii has granted numerous legal Certifications of Live Birth to persons who were not actually born in Hawaii such as Obama’s sister, Maya Kassandra Soetoro-Ng.

It is indisputable no-one including Obama, or anyone associated with the Obama campaign, or the Obama administration has ever shown a Certificate of Live Birth, what is known as a long form Birth Certificate. This document shows the time, date, and location of the Birth and has the name of the Medical Professional who assisted in the delivery of the baby. Of course there are some persons who were not born in a hospital or with the assistance of a medical professional. In this case however Obama, his representatives and his family have claimed that he was born in a hospital, although they have claimed different hospitals at different times.

The Main Stream Media's reluctance to look into this matter and their insistence on harassing, intimidating, and ridiculing those who feel it is a relevant issue is shameful to the point of being criminal negligence. No one on the outside seems to know the details of Obama’s birth, possibly not even Obama himself. The “conspiracy” here is the willful cover up and legal actions to prevent the release of the relevant documents. Are we to believe that a person who has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a pathological liar would spend nearly $2,000,000.00 to prevent the release of his birth documents is doing so because of some high minded principles? Give me a break!

5 posted on 02/15/2010 8:37:51 AM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15

I sense the eligibility issue is finally getting traction. Nobody wanted to confront The Magic Negrofor fear of being called racist. But after a dismal year in the WH, The Usurper’s lustre is gone.


6 posted on 02/15/2010 9:01:27 AM PST by dools007
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To: fireman15

Can you point me to Maya-Soetoro-Ng’s Hawaiian COLB? Leo Donofrio said there was no such thing.


7 posted on 02/15/2010 9:50:27 AM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: urtax$@work

bump


8 posted on 02/15/2010 2:10:16 PM PST by tutstar (Baptist Ping list - freepmail me to get on or off.)
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To: EnderWiggins

This was something that had been circulating prior to the election. I thought it was an accepted fact. But at this point it is not clear whether an image of her COLB was/is actually available on the internet.

There are numerous references to her COLB in various places but whether they are legit I do not know. Nor do I really care a great deal because Hawaian COLBs were issued to percons not actually born in Hawaii. I don’t think that this is in dispute.

“”In light of the fact that the state of HI statute 338-17 allowed foreign born children of Hawaiian residents to get Hawaiian birth certificates and statute 338-5 allowed birth certificates to be obtained without any corroborating documents from any hospitals, there is no verifiable prima facia evidence of Obama’s birth in Hawaii,” she argues.”
from:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=124973

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105371

http://theobamafile.com/ObamaCOLB.htm

http://www.redpills.org/?p=5095

http://www.whosdatedwho.com/celebrities/people/dating/maya-soetoro-ng.htm

http://clintondems.com/2008/08/claim-obamas-birth-certificate-forged-with-sister-mayas-original/


9 posted on 02/15/2010 6:39:55 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
"This was something that had been circulating prior to the election. I thought it was an accepted fact. But at this point it is not clear whether an image of her COLB was/is actually available on the internet."

I can completely clear that up for you. No such image ever existed. The claim was invented by the first of the fake Birther "document experts," TechDude. He was exposed as a fraud by the second of the fake Birther "document experts," Polarik. Leo Donofrio was the one who eventually proved that Hawaii has no birth record for Maya Soetor-NG at all, let alone a COLB.

"Hawaian COLBs were issued to percons not actually born in Hawaii. I don’t think that this is in dispute."

You are wrong again. There does not exist a single example of a single COLB that was issued to somebody not actually born in Hawaii. And yeah, I know about Sun YatSen. But that's not a COLB and it was issued decades before the State of Hawaii ever existed. Unlike a COLB, it would not pass the State Department regulations regarding proof of citizenship at birth.

It is not your fault that Birther lies never die. These are just two of them that you have revived.
10 posted on 02/16/2010 8:49:59 AM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: EnderWiggins

Thank you for researching this subject so thoroughly. Is it also a “Birther Lie” that the short form Certification of Live Birth that was provided by the Obama campaign did not show the hospital where he was born at or the doctor who delivered him? Is it a “Birther Lie” that Obama has spent huge sums of money to prevent the release of his actual long form birth certificate which would have verifiable information on it which would show where he was born and who was present? If those are not “Birther Lies”, please explain to me why this type of detailed documentation which is required by many little leagues for age verification should not be provided to concerned citizens by their president. Thanks.


11 posted on 02/17/2010 10:13:11 AM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
"Is it also a “Birther Lie” that the short form Certification of Live Birth that was provided by the Obama campaign did not show the hospital where he was born at or the doctor who delivered him?"

No. But since there is no eligibility requirements for the Presidency regarding hospitals or doctors, that would hardly matter now, right?

"Is it a “Birther Lie” that Obama has spent huge sums of money to prevent the release of his actual long form birth certificate which would have verifiable information on it which would show where he was born and who was present?"

Actually, yes, it is. The best and most detailed accounting of all the Birther cases that have been filed show that almost none of them were against Obama himself, and so on those he spent zero dollars. Only three required him to hire lawyers, and at least one of those was handled pro bono according to the lawyer involved. The other two were dismissed based on rather short and inexpensive motions filed by his lawyers. There is simply no evidence that Obama has spent more a couple thousand dollars on these cases, and none of that could have been avoided by presenting his birth certificate.

"If those are not “Birther Lies”, please explain to me why this type of detailed documentation which is required by many little leagues for age verification should not be provided to concerned citizens by their president."

I leave it entirely to you what you personally feel should or should not be required. And I hope that if you are not satisfied, you will exercise your powerful legal authority and withhold your vote. I can only point out to you that under the US Constitution, no such documentation is required. If you want that changed, then you should contact your Congressmen.
12 posted on 02/17/2010 12:30:13 PM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: EnderWiggins

Very good! I appreciate your efforts to show the kind of slippery tactics that lawyers are currently using to prevent the citizens of the country from being shown the documents that all of us should expect our president be willing to share. Would you like to argue the meaning of the word “is” with me also.

Quoting from the constitution,”No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

I doubt whether the founding fathers imagined that appologists for a presidential candidate would have the audacity to argue that a person would not be required to provide verifiable documentation to prove his eligability. The question that I have for you is... why should the president not provide a copy of his long form birth certificate? Any documentation that would help prove his legitimacy as president could only increase his stature and authority both here and abroad. To not do this if such documents exist is counter-productive.

Your claim that there is no proof that the Obama and his representatives have spent no more than a couple of thousand dollars on this matter is simply laughable and undermines your credibility.


13 posted on 02/17/2010 1:12:34 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
"I doubt whether the founding fathers imagined that appologists for a presidential candidate would have the audacity to argue that a person would not be required to provide verifiable documentation to prove his eligability."

Well, that's an interesting thought. I have to ask you... since birth certificates were not required by law in this country until about 1915, and since only 8 of our 44 Presidents ever had one in the first place, exactly what do you envision the founding fathers would have accepted as proof of eligibility?

That's not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know what you think. What would say... Grover Cleveland have used to "prove his eligibility?"

"The question that I have for you is... why should the president not provide a copy of his long form birth certificate?"

To who? You? Who are you?

"Any documentation that would help prove his legitimacy as president could only increase his stature and authority both here and abroad. To not do this if such documents exist is counter-productive."

That's one possibility. Another is that he has already proved his legitimacy according to the standards of law and those who don't believe it won't believe anything he provided anyway. So any "increase in stature and authority" is doubtful.

"Your claim that there is no proof that the Obama and his representatives have spent no more than a couple of thousand dollars on this matter is simply laughable and undermines your credibility."

Oh... you misread my comment completely. I didn't say there was no proof. I said there was not even any evidence, let alone proof. The actual facts show that the claim is quite absurd. Orly's sanctions will add up to many times the entire expenditure of Obama on this issue.
14 posted on 02/17/2010 1:39:50 PM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: EnderWiggins

Despite what you might think from our discussion here, I want you to know that I sincerely appreciate you and your associates efforts on behalf of Obama in the matter of his elegibility. I am very confident that the midterm ellections will result in a profound change in the make-up of both the Senate and the House of Representatives. It would be a terrible thing if documentation were to surface before the midterm elections in time for him to be forced from office. The resulting constitutional crisis could very well result in both Obama and his running-mate Biden being removed from office and Nancy Pelosi then becoming our nation’s first woman president.

If you can just draw this thing out long enough for the Republicans to take control of both houses of congress... there is a good chance that a Republican will serve as president for the remainder of Obama’s term.

Oh and if you don’t want to believe that anyone born outside of the state of Hawaii ever received a Hawaian COLB despite legal loopholes a mile wide that allowed this then (wink wink) that is just fine with me also. ;’)

So thank you again and keep up the good work! And from a long time member to a new person who claims to be a graduate of West Point and a veteran... welcome to the forums!


15 posted on 02/17/2010 1:56:49 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
"Oh and if you don’t want to believe that anyone born outside of the state of Hawaii ever received a Hawaian COLB despite legal loopholes a mile wide that allowed this then (wink wink) that is just fine with me also."

Hey. I believe what the evidence leads me to believe. If you have an example of somebody from outside Hawaii who ever got a Hawaiian COLB saying they were born in Hawaii, then show me. I'd really appreciate seeing it.

"And from a long time member to a new person who claims to be a graduate of West Point and a veteran... welcome to the forums!"

Thank you. It is good to be here.
16 posted on 02/17/2010 2:02:31 PM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: EnderWiggins
“Oh... you misread my comment completely. I didn't say there was no proof. I said there was not even any evidence, let alone proof. The actual facts show that the claim is quite absurd. Orly's sanctions will add up to many times the entire expenditure of Obama on this issue.”

OK, I got you we are speaking in code here aren't we? (wink wink) All those lawyers in the dozens of lawsuits related to this issue are working for free and have no connection to Obama or the Justice Department. I got you! (wink wink)

Hey if anyone else is reading through this thread (doubtful) then EnderWiggins has convinced me that we should all accept a completely unverifiable document that he claims meets the legal requirements for proof of eligibility for the presidency. Like he says they didn't have birth certificates or anything that proved anything about anyone until 1915. So just go about your business there is nothing to read here. I am just doing my part to keep one of the president's men busy and out of trouble. (wink wink). Thanks again EnderWiggins!

17 posted on 02/17/2010 2:07:17 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: EnderWiggins
The natural born citizen requirement for the presidency was intended to prevent a person with divided loyalties from assuming the office. Obama’s life from the day he was born is a swamp of conflicting information, loyalties, associations with foreign interests and radical America haters. There is no need to rehash it all here, but Obama was not the one we have been waiting for; he is the one the framers of the constitution were hoping to protect us from. Unfortunately we have judges and people like you, EnderWiggins who would argue that no one has any “standing” to even raise the questions we have discussed here in court.

NO matter how you twist things around... the truth here is that no verifiable documentation has been provided to the public that proves anything about the details of Obama’s birth. The other fact whether that you cannot reasonably dispute is that teams of lawyers have been working on Obama’s behalf since before the election to prevent the documentation of Obama’s life from being unsealed in dozens of lawsuits.

I have noticed that in your arguments you make misstatements that attempt to confuse the issues such as your accounting of who spent the money for the teams of lawyers who are keeping Obama’s records sealed. It is complete obfuscation on your part and may work well at the sites that you are more accustomed to posting at but is fairly transparent here.

You argue that no one has the right to demand to see Obama’s long form birth certificate. You ask who am I. As far as I am concerned anyone in the world should be able to ask to see Obama’s long form birth certificate. He is in a position to hurt everyone in the world. We all can be harmed by the most powerful man in the world. We all have already been harmed by him. He is an irresponsible person who lies nearly everytime he reads from his teleprompter. His policies are a disaster.

18 posted on 02/17/2010 3:39:46 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
”The natural born citizen requirement for the presidency was intended to prevent a person with divided loyalties from assuming the office.”

Says who? Certainly John Jay did not say that in his letter to Washington. He instead was worried about a foreigner becoming President, and in case you were unaware, dual citizens are not foreigners. They are dual citizens.

”Obama’s life from the day he was born is a swamp of conflicting information, loyalties, associations with foreign interests and radical America haters. There is no need to rehash it all here, but Obama was not the one we have been waiting for; he is the one the framers of the constitution were hoping to protect us from. Unfortunately we have judges and people like you, EnderWiggins who would argue that no one has any “standing” to even raise the questions we have discussed here in court.”

Those are all great reasons not to vote for him. None of them is a Constitutional disqualification from eligibility for the Presidency.

”NO matter how you twist things around... the truth here is that no verifiable documentation has been provided to the public that proves anything about the details of Obama’s birth.”

Other than a COLB that meets perfectly the United States Department of States regulations for proof of citizenship at birth, you mean. You know the one.

Now, if that is not good enough for you, then you have the recourse of withholding your vote. Just as I’m sure you have already refused to vote for every other presidential candidate who did not show you their long form birth certificate.

”The other fact whether that you cannot reasonably dispute is that teams of lawyers have been working on Obama’s behalf since before the election to prevent the documentation of Obama’s life from being unsealed in dozens of lawsuits.”

I dispute that without any genuine fear of contradiction. In the past two years no more than 10 hours total have been spent in court by any lawyers for Obama even responding to these suits. Your fantasy of “teams of lawyers” being involved in this issue is, well… frankly just weird.

”I have noticed that in your arguments you make misstatements that attempt to confuse the issues such as your accounting of who spent the money for the teams of lawyers who are keeping Obama’s records sealed. It is complete obfuscation on your part and may work well at the sites that you are more accustomed to posting at but is fairly transparent here.”

Well aren’t you the clever one. Can’t slip a thing by you. Except of course that you are the one who said Obama was spending the money when he’s not. I think you need to look up the word “obfuscation.” I don’t think it means what you think it means.

”You argue that no one has the right to demand to see Obama’s long form birth certificate. You ask who am I. As far as I am concerned anyone in the world should be able to ask to see Obama’s long form birth certificate. He is in a position to hurt everyone in the world. We all can be harmed by the most powerful man in the world. We all have already been harmed by him. He is an irresponsible person who lies nearly everytime he reads from his teleprompter. His policies are a disaster.”

For starters, please do not put words into my mouth that I never said. You absolutely have the right to demand to see anything you want to demand. You have the right to stand on a rooftop in Washington DC and demand to see Obama’s birth certificate, Joe Biden’s hair plugs and Angelina Jolie’s underwear. All of that is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Knock yourself out.

And all three of them have the right to say, “No.”

And you can then go on to vote accordingly.
19 posted on 02/17/2010 4:29:30 PM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: EnderWiggins

ob·fus·cate (bf-skt, b-fskt)
tr.v. ob·fus·cat·ed, ob·fus·cat·ing, ob·fus·cates
1. To make so confused or opaque as to be difficult to perceive or understand: “A great effort was made . . . to obscure or obfuscate the truth” (Robert Conquest).
2. To render indistinct or dim; darken: The fog obfuscated the shore.
3. The types of nonsense EnderWiggins posts to confuse a simple issue.

Q. Why is Obama still using teams of lawyers to prevent the unsealing of verifiable documentation about the relevant facts of his life?
A. He is hiding something.
Q. What is wrong with the president hiding relevant facts about his life?
A. Other persons or even foreign interests may know what he is hiding and this creates an opportunity for them to unduly influence his decision making process.
Q. Does Fireman15 know persons who have obtained security clearances and could Obama have passed a background check.
A. Yes Fireman15 knows persons who have received security clearances. Every one of them has agreed that Obama would not have even the slightest chance of passing a background check if he refused to provide the documentation that has been requested.
Q. How absurd is this situation to a person of normal intelligent with the slightest amount of common sense?
A. Extremely absurd.
Q. Why does EnderWiggin not find this situation absurd.
A. ???
Q. Does EnderWiggins have a hidden agenda?
A. ???
Q. Is EnderWiggins just blindly following his Messiah Obama?
A. ???


20 posted on 02/17/2010 5:20:02 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
Only one response to your otherwise schizophrenic conversation with yourself is of any value: "Q. Does Fireman15 know persons who have obtained security clearances and could Obama have passed a background check."

A. It does not matter, since EnderWiggens not only knows such people too, he has himself held an SCI clearance (higher than TS) and held nuclear surety clearances as a custodian of nuclear warheads. There is no doubt whatsoever that anybody claiming to know whether or not Obama could pass a background check has their heads firmly in rectal defilade.
21 posted on 02/18/2010 10:05:48 AM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: EnderWiggins
EnderWiggins I thank you for your service in the United States military. But your convoluted claim that no one knows whether Obama could pass a background check is completely laughable. I also enjoyed your “rectal defilade” remark! Anyone who had associated with even a tenth of the radical America Haters and criminals that Obama has wouldn't have a chance of getting even any type of security clearance. He also admitted to using hard drugs while he was in college. I am guessing you didn't fess up to that in your interviews. Then there is the issue of his character... the man is a habitual liar to the point that he embarrasses himself on an almost daily basis.

I guess you didn't catch his talk with the space shuttle crew the other day. “My commitment to NASA is unwavering,” Obama said. He emphasized “how proud we are of you ... and how committed we are to continuing human space exploration in the future.” He just canceled NASA’s primary space exploration project. Reality and what comes out of the man's mouth are almost polar opposites every time he speaks. Now admittedly he normally only is reading what is being displayed on his teleprompter, but still that just shows that he has surrounded himself with liars. He uses the same type of muddled language that you do so that when someone catches him in a lie he is able to claim that what people think they heard coming out of his mouth is different than what he actually said.

22 posted on 02/18/2010 12:14:58 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
Fireman15,

I will not argue with you on issues in which we are violent agreement, nor will I argue on issues that I admittedly know nothing about. I would suggest you hold to those same behaviors, but hey, that is entirely up to you. But I assure you that I know wherefore I speak, and I have personally gone through he process of my own background check and participated in those of several other people, and I know wherefore I speak.

The process of a security investigation is not based on Internet rumors, political rhetoric, or the decibel level at which the input is offered. It is performed by professionals who are quite adept at telling the difference between genuine issues and vacuous speculation, and as a result no one can ever predict from the outside looking in what clearances will or will not get granted.

I know that I myself doubted my own ability to get a clearance since I had a long family history of participation in organized crime. Yes, I am Sicilian and the son of a Mafia princess.

History shows that I not only received a clearance, but I was given custodial responsibility for nuclear weapons at the age of 21.

When all was said done, it did not matter who my grandfather was, or my uncles were, or who I was friends with, or where I was born, or what drugs I had ever used, or what previous jobs I had held.

It mattered only that their investigation determined I was deserving of the clearance.

I repeat... anybody who pretends they know ahead of time how a security clearance background check will go are demonstrating by that certainty that they have no idea what they are talking about.
23 posted on 02/18/2010 12:33:40 PM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: fireman15; EnderWiggins

It’s noteworthy that you chose not to answer his first question.


24 posted on 02/18/2010 12:49:43 PM PST by Sloth (Civil disobedience? I'm afraid only the uncivil kind is going to cut it this time.)
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To: EnderWiggins
EnderWiggins,

I certainly appreciate your candor about your personal experience and background. It sounds very exciting compared to my childhood of chasing cows and falling off of horses. I will certainly try to tone down my rhetoric... the same way that I did after I introduced my wife to shooting.

I am very curious... did you graduate from West Point before or after you were given custodial responsibility for nuclear weapons?

My closest friend growing up went into Naval Intelligence and was one of those “professionals” of whom you speak. We have numerous family members who have been career military members in several branches of the service. My wife's ex-husband was a recruiter. Both my wife and I are very active in veterans and military history groups. The general consensus has been... given Obama’s claimed age he most likely would have had a difficult time even joining the military let alone getting a security clearance given his history of drug use and radical associations. But I will call my most knowledgeable friends and family members and ask again what they think.

I will tell you that I have been interviewed several times myself for other persons background checks. In every case the interviewers were very interested in the persons associations, possible drug use and their character.

25 posted on 02/18/2010 1:17:10 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: Sloth

“It’s noteworthy that you chose not to answer his first question.”

Which question are you referring to?


26 posted on 02/18/2010 1:21:28 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15

“...exactly what do you envision the founding fathers would have accepted as proof of eligibility?”


27 posted on 02/18/2010 1:31:31 PM PST by Sloth (Civil disobedience? I'm afraid only the uncivil kind is going to cut it this time.)
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To: fireman15
I am very curious... did you graduate from West Point before or after you were given custodial responsibility for nuclear weapons?

Well.. it depends on where you draw the line. I received my orders for the assignment while I was still a Cadet, since it was to be my first permanent duty station after graduation and the Artillery Basic Course. But I had graduated before I actually got there and took over the warheads.

So... I depends on whether you consider getting the orders or actually getting the warheads as being "given custodial responsibility."

I got my first clearance, though, as a Plebe. The investigation for that took place while I was still in high school.

"My closest friend growing up went into Naval Intelligence and was one of those “professionals” of whom you speak. We have numerous family members who have been career military members in several branches of the service. My wife's ex-husband was a recruiter. Both my wife and I are very active in veterans and military history groups. The general consensus has been... given Obama’s claimed age he most likely would have had a difficult time even joining the military let alone getting a security clearance given his history of drug use and radical associations. But I will call my most knowledgeable friends and family members and ask again what they think."

Ask them all you wish. The simple and unassailable truth is that whatever they tell you they will still just be guessing based on information of questionable reliability. The real investigators will actually investigate, and what might look like a "radical association" based on the blogosphere may not even considered meaningful by the FBI.

"I will tell you that I have been interviewed several times myself for other persons background checks. In every case the interviewers were very interested in the persons associations, possible drug use and their character."

It's an investigation. They are interested in everything. And then when they have collected everything they can, they go back an make a decision. Let me give you another interesting example on the "character" issue you mentioned.

I had an acquittance who was (at the time) an Air Force Captain who was trying to get a position with the OSI, and it required a completely new background check. Among the things they discovered in the course of the investigation was that she was wildly promiscuous and did not really care who knew about it. So do you think she got the clearance?

Of course she did. The reason I was given later was that since she did not care who knew about it, she was at no risk of being blackmailed by anyone who was aware of the behavior. Not only did she get the clearance, she eventually retired from the Air Force as a full Colonel in the OSI.

You will note that I never once said that I thought Obama could pass a background check. I have no idea whether or not he would, but neither does anybody else. And those who pretend otherwise are just pretending.
28 posted on 02/18/2010 2:17:21 PM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: Sloth

If there was actual questions about a persons eligibility I the founding fathers would have used the best available information that was available at that time. I am sorry but anyone who objects to producing a document that would clear up a situation like this shows a complete lack of common sense. What has been released has no verifiable information on it; it is a farce. If I were Obama’s biggest supporter... I would be embarrassed to object to producing a verifiable document that we have been told repeatedly exists.


29 posted on 02/18/2010 6:11:22 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: EnderWiggins
You must be an amazing person to have graduated from West Point received a commission and an important assignment caring for nuclear warheads at only 21 years of age. You must be one of the youngest West Point Graduates ever, which is an impressive accomplishment. Congratulations!

You are a little confused however about who does background checks for military security clearances. The FBI does do background checks on individuals for Federal, State and Local agencies. The Department of Defense performs it's own background checks on military personnel. I called my friend who was in Naval Intelligence; he has insisted that a person with Obama’s questionable associations, admitted drug use and other information included in his autobiographies would not have passed a DOD background check at the time he served in the 1980s. That is for what it's worth since you have already stated you would not accept any person's assessment on this.

Personally I do not have as strong a feelings on this as you might assume. I have very little faith in our judicial system. I do not believe that Obama will be declared ineligible to be president until he is either impeached by a Republican dominated House of Representatives or his own friends turn on him. Neither is very likely. I do however support those who continue to try and unseal the documentation of Obama’s life.

30 posted on 02/18/2010 7:09:35 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
"You must be an amazing person to have graduated from West Point received a commission and an important assignment caring for nuclear warheads at only 21 years of age. You must be one of the youngest West Point Graduates ever, which is an impressive accomplishment. Congratulations!" You must not know very much about West Point. My profile is about average. Everybody gets commissioned, most of us are 21 when we graduate, and all of us get positions of significant responsibility afterward.

"You are a little confused however about who does background checks for military security clearances. The FBI does do background checks on individuals for Federal, State and Local agencies. The Department of Defense performs it's own background checks on military personnel.

Not true. Every single background check I have ever been involved with regarding Military personnel (either my own or those I was contacted regarding) were performed by the FBI. Whether that was luck of the draw or not, it does not matter. The FBI absolutely does background checks for military security clearances.

" I called my friend who was in Naval Intelligence; he has insisted that a person with Obama’s questionable associations, admitted drug use and other information included in his autobiographies would not have passed a DOD background check at the time he served in the 1980s. That is for what it's worth since you have already stated you would not accept any person's assessment on this."

The fact that he is even willing to offer an opinion demonstrates that he has no idea what he is talking about.
31 posted on 02/19/2010 9:12:56 AM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: EnderWiggins
West Point has a four year program. Most persons do not graduate from high school until they are 18, your statement that most persons graduate from West Point when they are 21 is suspect to anyone who can add. It has been this way for a long time. George Custer was the youngest West Point graduate in his class. He was 22. I encourage anyone reading this to verify your statement about the average age of West Point graduates.

Your comments about the FBI issuing most Security Clearances for military personnel is just wrong and really destroys your credibility here. Anyone reading this can easily verify this for themselves also. Of course if others were actually reading this thread you would be shot out of the water on this one. With very few exceptions the Defense Security Service (DSS) gathers the background information. Once the information has been verified, and the investigations completed, DSS presents the information to the specific military service's adjudicator authority (each military service has their own), who determine whether or not to grant the security clearance, using standards set by that particular military service.

From the late 70s through the 80s, anyone who admitted to being a pot smoker was not welcome in most branches of the service. Obama has admitted in public and in his autobiographies that he used much harder drugs; it is very unlikely that he would have been welcomed into any branch of the service at that time. I am not as familiar with more recent policy but I am doubtful that things have eased up to the point where a person confessing to illegal drug use would be welcomed into any branch of the service without at least a great deal of additional scrutiny. Given the associations that Obama has admitted to in public and in his autobiography no branch of the service would have even bothered going to the trouble and expense of trying to get him a security clearance during this time period.

“The fact that he is even willing to offer an opinion demonstrates that he has no idea what he is talking about.” I have known the persons who have given these opinions for a very long time, and I know for certain that they do know what they are talking about. Many former and current military members are very talkative and willing to share their experiences and opinions when asked. This does not demonstrate that they don't know what they are talking about.

I hate to say it, but you have used nearly every Alinsky tactic in the book. You have thrown out many half truths to confuse the issues. You have subtly added misleading qualifiers that give the impression that you are claiming something which actually you are not. You ridicule and cast dispersions any anyone who expresses knowledge that contradicts your point of view without offering any verifiable information to back up your claims. Your protests are transparent... you are obviously trying to defend your questionable claims by going on the attack. Despite your being a very new member in this forum I have given you the benefit of the doubt because you have claimed to be a veteran and an Army officer. You are long on Obama talking points but very short on common sense. You also seem to have very low expectations for the ability of people here to verify your questionable information. Freepers are known for being able to sift through the BS so I doubt whether you will last all that long here.

32 posted on 02/19/2010 8:12:46 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
"West Point has a four year program. Most persons do not graduate from high school until they are 18, your statement that most persons graduate from West Point when they are 21 is suspect to anyone who can add.

I graduated from West Point on June 6, 1978 and would not turn 22 until the following December 29th. And I was not the youngest member of my graduating class by more than a month. I have no idea what point you imagine you are trying to make, but it is hardly meaningful. There are more than six months there of hundreds of my classmates having 22nd birthdays.

If the average age of highs school graduation is 18, then about half will be younger. See how that works?

"It has been this way for a long time. George Custer was the youngest West Point graduate in his class. He was 22. I encourage anyone reading this to verify your statement about the average age of West Point graduates."

I have to tell you, I did not know that Custer was the youngest in his class, and I'm not sure it's true. What I do know is that he graduated last in his class, and so officially earned the title of "Class Goat." I believe you may have those details confused.

West Point rules are that anybody can matriculate as long as they will be older than 20 and younger than 27 on graduation day.

"With very few exceptions the Defense Security Service (DSS) gathers the background information. "

Aaaahhhh. There's your confusion. With very few exceptions the DSS compiles the background information. Gathering it is another issue entirely. The DSS has been subcontracting many if not most of these investigations to other organizations since 1974, when they first picked up the responsibility (but not the manpower) for performing them. The FBI is the primary organization performing the actual field interviews especially since they have the geographic infrastructure to do so and DSS does not.

"From the late 70s through the 80s, anyone who admitted to being a pot smoker was not welcome in most branches of the service."

You have been misled. This corresponds to one of the periods of most highly acknowledged drug use both in and outside the military. The simple truth of the matter is that they tacitly recognized the fact that the services would be unable to fill their billets were this rule actually followed. It has been winked at for more than 40 years.

Your continued tendency to list Obama's "disqualifications" can be safely ignored since I have already made the point that such speculation carries no weight with actual reality. You are merely stating again the opinion I have asserted deserves no confidence. Repetitioon is not actual argument.

"I have known the persons who have given these opinions for a very long time, and I know for certain that they do know what they are talking about. Many former and current military members are very talkative and willing to share their experiences and opinions when asked. This does not demonstrate that they don't know what they are talking about."

Again... repetition is not argument. Your confidence in them is noted. I know better. The argument is not advanced in any way from where it was several posts ago.

"You ridicule and cast dispersions any anyone who expresses knowledge that contradicts your point of view without offering any verifiable information to back up your claims. Your protests are transparent... you are obviously trying to defend your questionable claims by going on the attack."

I have ridiculed no one. I have attacked no one. I have observed the simple unassailable truth that nobody can say from the outside looking in who will or will not pass a background investigation. Investigators do not care what some blog says a person's prior associations were. They care what the investigation determines they are.

You will note that never once have I asserted that Obama would pass such an investigation. I have no idea if he would or wouldn't.

And neither do any of your friends.

"You also seem to have very low expectations for the ability of people here to verify your questionable information. Freepers are known for being able to sift through the BS so I doubt whether you will last all that long here."

To this point, I am impressed neither by your ability to sift through the BS nor your prioritization of your energy. I am actually a bit puzzled why you are taking this conversation as personally as you have... but the point that remains is this:

Anybody who asserts that Obama could not pass a security clearance investigation is simply making it up as they go. It is worse than a wild guess.
33 posted on 02/20/2010 10:12:58 AM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: EnderWiggins

EnderWiggins my wife was born in August of 1956. You were born on December 29, 1956. That makes her several months older than you.

She had to get a waiver to be entered into kindergarten because she had just turned 5 years old. She was the youngest student in every class through her entire academic career. She was the youngest graduate from her high school in the class of 1974. She had to get a waiver signed by a doctor and a surgeon to take the tests to get into nursing school because one of the age requirement at that time were that a person had to be 18 before they would allow her to take the tests to get into nursing school.

In order for you to graduate in the class of 1974 you would either have had to have been only 4 years when you entered Kindergarten or you would have had to graduate a year earlier than your classmates. In my previous posts I congratulated you for your achievement because very very few persons graduate from West Point at 21 most of them are 22 or older. Instead of accepting my compliment you stated that you were just average and that most of your classmates were 21 when they graduated. It is possible for people to graduate from West Point at just 21. It certainly is not the norm as you would surely know if you had actually attended.

“West Point rules are that anybody can matriculate as long as they will be older than 20 and younger than 27 on graduation day.” I am not sure where you dug that up. In reality each candidate must:
be 17 but not yet 23 years of age by July 1 of the year admitted.

I am not a professional Obama PR person as you most likely are, so I am going to get out and enjoy the beautiful day rather than continue refuting the rest of the lies and micharacterizations in your post.


34 posted on 02/20/2010 11:49:15 AM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: EnderWiggins
EnderWiggins, I just can't let this one go. I posted, “From the late 70s through the 80s, anyone who admitted to being a pot smoker was not welcome in most branches of the service.”

EnderWiggins you posted, “You have been misled. This corresponds to one of the periods of most highly acknowledged drug use both in and outside the military. The simple truth of the matter is that they tacitly recognized the fact that the services would be unable to fill their billets were this rule actually followed. It has been winked at for more than 40 years.”

The reason why the military began refusing to recruit persons who were drug users is because there was a problem in the military which was determined to be a security threat. Random drug tests became the norm for anyone given a position of responsibility. My wife's ex-husband was a recruiter; he was never instructed to give a wink to drug users and let them in. The military was desperately trying to root out drug users and not let more in. I am not sure how it is possible that you were not aware of this effort. It is very puzzling, but then anyone who does not believe that Obama’s refusal to release his long form birth certificate and other relevant documentation of his life is puzzling to me.

35 posted on 02/20/2010 1:30:19 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15

I am sure you actually believe that.

I, on the other had was actually there and assure you... it is not true.


36 posted on 02/20/2010 6:30:08 PM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: fireman15
I do not know your wife and I do not care about her particular experience.

I was born in December of 1956. I graduated from Parochial School 8th grade in 1970. I graduated from High school in 1974, and West Point in 1978. I never skipped a grade, and I never required a waiver.

And I was not the youngest member of my West Point Class by more than two weeks.

"In reality each candidate must: be 17 but not yet 23 years of age by July 1 of the year admitted."

Do the math. I meet those qualifications with six months to spare.
37 posted on 02/20/2010 6:34:55 PM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: fireman15
I do not know your wife and I do not care about her particular experience.

I was born in December of 1956. I graduated from Parochial School 8th grade in 1970. I graduated from High school in 1974, and West Point in 1978. I never skipped a grade, and I never required a waiver.

And I was not the youngest member of my West Point Class by more than two weeks.

"In reality each candidate must: be 17 but not yet 23 years of age by July 1 of the year admitted."

Do the math. I meet those qualifications with six months to spare.
38 posted on 02/20/2010 6:34:55 PM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: EnderWiggins
Well I had the chance to enjoy a beautiful afternoon and now I am back to address one more of EnderWiggins false statements. First I would like to encourage everyone to actually check out the assertions that EnderWiggins has made and the assertions that I have made as well. Unfortunately, it is difficult to keep up with all of EnderWiggins claims, because he just makes stuff up whatever whenever he finds himself in a corner.

In this post I would like to address the following claim, “The DSS has been subcontracting many if not most of these investigations to other organizations since 1974, when they first picked up the responsibility (but not the manpower) for performing them. The FBI is the primary organization performing the actual field interviews especially since they have the geographic infrastructure to do so and DSS does not.”

He made this statement after I challenged his assertion that the FBI grants nearly all military security clearances. This of course was wrong, but to dig himself out of this he now makes the equally absurd claim that yes the DSS is in charge of gathering the information but the FBI actually does all of the field work.

Actually, as stated on The DSS Website at
https://www.dss.mil/GW/ShowBinary/DSS/about_dss/history/about_dss_history.html

“The Defense Security Service (DSS), formerly known as the Defense Investigative Service (DIS) was established on January 1, 1972. DSS was created in response to President Richard M. Nixon's approval of proposals suggesting the reorganization of the national intelligence community and the creation of an “Office of Defense Investigation” to consolidate Department of Defense (DoD) personnel security investigations (PSI). Prior to this consolidation, such work was accomplished through U.S. military departments by four major DoD investigative agencies. They were: 1) the U.S. Army Intelligence Command, 2) the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Command, 3) the Naval Investigative Service, and 4) the Office of Special Investigations, Air Force. Centralization of PSIs promised economic savings through better program management and more efficient use of resources.”

“Military departments were directed to transfer certain military and civilian manpower resources to DSS and on May 1, 1972, the agency took operational control of the National Agency Check (NAC) Center and the Defense Central Index of Investigations (DCII). On October 2, 1972, DSS became operational in all 50 states under the direction of Brigadier General Joseph Cappucci, former commander of the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Formation of this new agency and the consolidation of the PSI process brought additional benefits to the final investigative product-uniformity, improved quality and timeliness.”

Somehow they forgot to mention their biggest subcontractor! If EnderWiggins has any source for his claim about the DSS subcontracting almost all of their background investigations to the FBI, I would certainly appreciate seeing a link to it.

Once again I challenge EnderWiggins to give a coherent explanation as to why he feels that the person occupying the most powerful post in the world should not be expected to provide the verifiable documents from his past including his school and passport records and his long form birth certificate. So far I can summarize his reasons as being because Obama might be able to get away without doing it, and also because other people might have been able to get away without doing it. It sounds more like the reasoning from a teenage boy than the reasoning of a 53 year old West Point Grad who was an officer and given custodial responsibility of nuclear warheads at age 21.

Once again we have put a guy in the most powerful office in the world who refuses to provide verifiable information about who he is. He has the power to destroy this country and the rest of the world and we don't really know who he is and even someone who sounds like a leftist teenager admits that he doesn't know if Obama could obtain even the most basic Security Clearance. This is absurd; I would never have believed it could be so until it actually happened.

39 posted on 02/20/2010 7:12:32 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: EnderWiggins
EnderWiggins why don't we do the math together.
“I graduated from Parochial School 8th grade in 1970” “ I never skipped a grade”
So let's see:
Started 8th Grade in September of 1969
Started 7th Grade in September of 1968
Started 6th Grade in September of 1967
Started 5th Grade in September of 1966
Started 4th Grade in September of 1965
Started 3rd Grade in September of 1964
Started 2nd Grade in September of 1963
Started 1st Grade in September of 1962
Started Kindergarten in September of 1961
You claim to have been born on December 29, 1956, Were you 4 years old when you were sent off to kindergarten? Did you enter the 1st grade at 5?

First you argued that you were just the average age of a West Point Grad at 21. Then you said, “If the average age of highs school graduation is 18, then about half will be younger. See how that works?”
Then you said,”I was not the youngest member of my graduating class by more than a month.” Now you say,”And I was not the youngest member of my West Point Class by more than two weeks.

Nearly everyone knows very few people graduate from High School at 17 probably even you. My wife did but she was the youngest member of every class she was in from grade school through high school. You claim to have graduated the same year she did despite being several months younger. Then you claim you were just the average age of your fellow students as if you wouldn't be acutely aware that you were almost a year younger than many of your classmates through your entire school career as my wife was.

I posted the age requirements to apply for West Point and have never claimed that you could not have graduated when you said you did. I am just curious why you have tried to argue so hard you were the average age of a West Point graduate and have changed your story several times. You do a lot of wiggling in your posts EnderWiggins.

40 posted on 02/20/2010 7:53:39 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
You claim to have been born on December 29, 1956, Were you 4 years old when you were sent off to kindergarten? Did you enter the 1st grade at 5?

Back then about 1/3 of the kids who started kindergarten were not yet 5. I started kindergarten at age 4. My birthday was in the latter part of November. The cut-off was a birthday after the first of the year.
41 posted on 02/20/2010 8:02:23 PM PST by aruanan
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To: aruanan

Thank you for chiming in. I was from “back then” as well. I was 5 when I entered kindergarten, I turned 6 in November. In my school we didn’t have any 4 year olds in kindergarten. My wife’s parents had to get a waiver signed by their doctor in order for her to enter kindergarten. She turned 5 in August. When our kids went to kindergarten they had to be tested if they turned 5 after June.

Different states have different requirements but I would be very interested where you get the statistic that “about 1/3 of the kids” entered kindergarten when they were 4 in 1961.


42 posted on 02/20/2010 8:36:41 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
Different states have different requirements but I would be very interested where you get the statistic that “about 1/3 of the kids” entered kindergarten when they were 4 in 1961.

I didn't say 1961. In Illinois it was somewhere in the very late 1950's that the 5th year birthdate was moved to a date in November of the school year of kindergarten enrollment. I remember when it was moved to November sometime after I was already in school. Then it was changed to near the beginning of the school year. Now it's before the beginning of the school year.

How I got to the statistic was

1. if the cut-off birthday for entering kindergarten was turning 5 year by, roughly, the midpoint of the school year in which the child started kindergarten, sometime in January,

2. if births are more or less distributed evenly throughout the calendar year,

3. if most parents put their kids into kindergarten the first year they were eligible, and

4. if there are 4 months of school from September through December,

5. then there were kids whose 5th birthday occurred after the start of school in September and before the midpoint of the school year, a period of about four months. So 4/12 = 1/3.

I have exceedingly clear memories of this because I was started when I was four with a birthdate near the end of November. I held out until shortly after Christmas, after which my mom pulled me out and told the school I was just too young. I waited until the next fall and started kindergarten for the second time. The next fall, when I started first grade, was when my sister, who was born 18 months after me, started kindergarten at five years of age, having been born in May.
43 posted on 02/21/2010 4:58:30 AM PST by aruanan
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To: aruanan
Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, 1961 was the year that EnderWiggins and my wife entered kindergarten. I was not aware previous to the discussion here that in other areas of the country so many kids started Kindergarten so early. Thank you for the explanation.

Although I appreciate your reasoning I would point out is that this is not a straight mathematical problem. We were given the option with our kids as to whether they wanted to send our children off to Kindergarten at an early age or wait till the next year. Many parents decide that it is in their children's best interest to delay the start of their school career. This likely tends to skew the average toward later admissions even in the early 60s.

Personally I couldn't care less about when EnderWiggins started Kindergarten. He has made inaccurate statements here and in other threads. Mostly he refuses to verify his claims. However he chose to use his personal experiences to verify his claim that no one knows whether Obama could have received a military security clearance. Some of his personal experiences run counter to mine. And a lot of what he has claimed also runs counter to information that is easily verifiable. I personally know of examples where persons far more straight laced than Obama ran into difficulties and were denied.

EnderWiggins has been very active on the eligibility threads. It is helpful to have alternative viewpoints in the forums. Unfortunately he tends to post the same old Obama talking points. In most cases people responding to his attacks have not bothered to try and get him to back up his claims with verifiable information. Which to me this gets right to the heart of the eligibility issue. What is lacking most in what little documentation we have on Obama is verifiable information. I firmly believe that we would have already seen a legitimate looking forgery of a long form birth certificate from the Obama administration except for one thing... a document with verifiable information on it will be checked into. When some small detail does not check out then the credibility of the entire document starts to crumble.

As tedious as it is, that is how we ended up in this kindergarten discussion. I am just trying to follow up on all the info he provided for us when he claimed to have expert knowledge. In my job I am called as a witness on occassion and the lawyers often do everything they can to destroy my credibility.

Most people should be able to find for themselves that EnderWiggin’s statements about the FBI granting Security Clearances for the military is just plain false on several levels. And I think that most people understand also that the only leg he has to stand on about not knowing whether Obama could get a Military Security Clearance is that if someone wasn't doing their job that he might have been able to slip through the cracks. This to me is just so typical of the Obama talking point eligibility arguments. It is always vaguely reminiscent of arguing with a teenager. “So and so did this or got away with that, so I should be able to also.”

44 posted on 02/21/2010 9:03:15 AM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
It is always vaguely reminiscent of arguing with a teenager. “So and so did this or got away with that, so I should be able to also.”

Ha ha ha. Oh, yeah. I'm familiar with that. Where we were in Illinois I believe kindergarten was optional also. I still remember that particular morning in January trying to lie as flat as I could under my covers, thinking that if I counted to 100 as many times as I could, I would go undetected and not get sent to school, and it appeared to have worked, but I was just getting liberated for the rest of the year.
45 posted on 02/21/2010 3:01:28 PM PST by aruanan
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To: aruanan

That is a very cute story. I don’t think that kindergarten was optional in Washington State where my wife and I grew up, but I don’t know for sure. I am one of those strange kids that loved going to school. We lived on a small farm so until I started going to school I didn’t have a lot of other kids to play with. My mom worked so I enjoyed the attention I got from the teachers and I also loved school lunches.


46 posted on 02/21/2010 3:34:11 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
Oh... sorry I missed this. How droll....

As we have established, you yourself stumbled upon the proof that West Point allows cadets to matriculate who are 17 years and one week old. I was six months older than that, and yes that would have graduated me at 21 years of age and sent me to my first assignment (the nuke one) while still 21.

With that astounding mystery solved... one can only wonder what in my posts have inspired the frothing level of analysis you seem to believe that I deserve. I must have really shaken you up to deserve it. I'm pretty happy with that, actually. My arguments must be strong ones.

"You claim to have been born on December 29, 1956, Were you 4 years old when you were sent off to kindergarten? Did you enter the 1st grade at 5?"

Yes to both.

"I posted the age requirements to apply for West Point and have never claimed that you could not have graduated when you said you did. I am just curious why you have tried to argue so hard you were the average age of a West Point graduate and have changed your story several times. You do a lot of wiggling in your posts EnderWiggins."

Okay... okay... you have stoned me to death with popcorn, beaten me into submission with al dente fettuccine. You have wrung from me the horrible admission that I was one of the younger guys in my class. What evil and nefarious purpose would have caused me to build this vast conspiracy of subterfuge to make myself look completely ordinary?

Ahhh, I must have forgotten. Humility is (among Birthers) is a sure sign of evil intent.

My class graduated some 953 people (depending on whether you count the guys that graduated a few months later for academic reasons). Exactly 243 of us were younger than 22, so while younger than most I was still hardly exceptional. And if the average age actually was closer to 22 than 21... that is hardly a great distinction given the jobs of great responsibility all these men went on to immediately perform.

You win you win. The average age of my graduating class was closer to 18 than to 17.

Therefore, Obama is not a natural born citizen. [end sarcasm]
47 posted on 02/22/2010 11:52:27 AM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: EnderWiggins
EnderWiggins, I already admitted to others in the thread that I may have been barking up the wrong tree on your age. The thing that is curious to me however is that you have now changed your tune on this four different times. To me that seems a little odd. Until others came forward here... you did not appear to be willing to admit that you started kindergarten at age 4. There are currently no states which allow a child who will not turn 5 until December 29 to enter kindergarten.

Of course this is not nearly as odd as your repeated claims that the FBI grants almost all military security clearances and numerous other statements you have made which are easily disproved as well. If I could give a little advice to someone who argues like a teenager and has no real allegiance to the truth... if you stuck a little closer to the Obama talking points and didn't allow others to draw you off on a tangent you would be more convincing.

I for one appreciate having a few individuals such as yourself on the forum. Without you and your associates many of these threads would get a few looks and a couple dozen comments and then be forgotten. With your assistance we are keeping the interest in these eligibility threads going for weeks. So thank you.

You still haven't made any attempt to give a valid reason why the person occupying the most powerful position in the world should not be required to provide the verifiable documentation that so far Obama has refused to. Basically all you have said thus far is that he shouldn't have to because he might be able to get away with it, and also that other people might have been able to get away with it. I can remember similar arguments with our children when they were teenagers. They didn't fly even for the trivial issues that teenagers place so much importance in. In this case we are talking about a man who has within his powers to destroy our country and the rest of the world. I know what to expect from you... several paragraphs of pastes from English common law from several hundred years ago and some more blather about them not having birth certificates way back when.

“The issue over Obama’s birth certificate is not about President Obama’s citizenship. It is about his honesty and his promise to be the most transparent president ever. Releasing his birth certificate and other personal records that presidents have traditionally released to the public would go a long way toward bolstering those claims.”

1. George Washington — Address: George Washington Birthplace National Monument; Rural Route 1; Box 717; Washington's Birthplace, Va. 22443

2. John Adams — Address: 133 Franklin St.; Quincy, Mass. 02669

3.Thomas Jefferson — Address: U.S. 250; 3 miles east of Charlottesville, Va.

4. James Madison — Address: Monroe Hall; Virginia SR 205; Westmoreland County near Colonial Beach, Va. 22443

5.James Monroe — Address: Monroe Hall; Virginia SR 205; Westmoreland County near Colonial Beach, Va. 22443

6.John Quincy Adams — Address: 141 Franklin St.; Quincy, Mass. 02169

7.Andrew Jackson — Address: 14 miles south of Rock Hill on South Carolina State Route 5. The Park is on Route 1. Address:196 Andrew Jackson Park Road; Lancaster, S.C. 29720

8.Martin Van Buren — Address: 46 Hudson St.; Kinderhook, New York 12106

9.William Henry Harrison — Address: 12602 Harrison Landing Road; Charles City, Va. 23030

10. John Tyler — Address: John Tyler Memorial Highway; Charles City, Va. 23030

11. James Polk — Address: Box 475; Pineville, N.C. 28134

12. Zachary Taylor — Address: Highway 33; 5 miles west of Gordonsville, Va., and just over 20 miles from Charlottesville, Va.

13. Millard Fillmore — Address: Millard Fillmore Birthplace; Locke, N.Y. 13092

14. Franklin Pierce — Address: The Pierce Homestead; Routes 9 and 31; Hillsboro, N.H. 03244

15. James Buchanan — Address: Buchanan Historic Site; Mercersburg, Pa. 17236

16. Abraham Lincoln — Address: Sinking Spring Farm; 2995 Lincoln Farm Road; Hodgenville, Ky. 42748

17. Andrew Johnson — Address: Mordecai Historic Park; Wake Forest Road; Raleigh, N.C. 27601

18. Ulysses Grant — Address: Grant's Birthplace; Routes 52E and 322; Point Pleasant, Ohio 45143

19. Rutherford Hayes — Address: Rutherford B. Hayes Birthplace; East William Street; Delaware, Ohio 43015

20. James Garfield — Address: James A. Garfield Birthplace; 4350 S.O.M Center Road; Moreland Hills (now Chagrin Falls); Cuyahoga County, Ohio 44022

21. Chester Arthur — Address: Chester A. Arthur State Historic Site; Route 36; Fairfield, Vt. 05455

22. Grover Cleveland — Address: Grover Cleveland Birthplace State Historic Site; 207 Bloomfield Avenue; Caldwell, N.J. 07006

23. Benjamin Harrison — Address: Benjamin Harrison Birthplace; William Henry Harrison Home; Symmes and Washington Avenues; North Bend, Ohio 45052

24. Grover Cleveland — Address: Grover Cleveland Birthplace State Historic Site; 207 Bloomfield Avenue; Caldwell, N.J. 07006

25. William McKinley — Address: William McKinley Birthplace; 36 S. Main St.; Niles, Ohio 44446

26. Theodore Roosevelt — Address: Theodore Roosevelt Birthplace National Historic Site; 28 East 20th St.; New York, N.Y. 10003

27. William Taft — Address: 2038 Auburn Ave., Cincinnati, Ohio 45219

28. Woodrow Wilson — Address: 18-24 Coalter Street, Staunton, Va. 24401

29. Warren Harding — Address: Highways 97 and 288, Blooming Grove, Ohio 44878

30. Calvin Coolidge — Address: P.O. Box 247, Plymouth, Vermont 05056

31. Herbert Hoover — Address: West Branch, Iowa 52538

32. Franklin Roosevelt — Address: 519 Albany Post Road, Hyde Park, N.Y. 12538

33. Harry Truman — Address: 1009 Truman Ave., Lamar, Mo. 64759

34. Dwight Eisenhower — Address: 208 East Day St., Denison, Texas 75020

35. John Kennedy — Address: 83 Beals St., Brookline, Mass. 02146

36. Lyndon Johnson — Address: Box 329 Johnson City, Texas 78636

37. Richard Nixon — Address: 18001 Yorba Linda Blvd., Yorba Linda, Calif. 92686

38. Gerald Ford — Address: 3202 Woolworth Ave, Omaha, Neb. 68103

39. James Carter — Address: 300 North Bond St., Plains, Ga. 31780

40. Ronald Reagan — Address: 119 S. Main St., Tampico, Ill. 61283

41. George H.W. Bush — Address: 173 Adams St, Milton, Mass. 02187

42. Bill Clinton — Address: Bill Clinton was born at the Julia Chester Hospital in Hope, Ark. The hospital has been demolished.

43. George W. Bush — Address: George W. was born to Barbara and George Bush in what was then Grace-New Haven Community Hospital and is now Yale-New Haven Hospital.

44. Barack Obama — Address: Unknown.

http://www.newsmax.com/Ruddy/Obama-birth-certificate/2009/12/12/id/341849

48 posted on 02/22/2010 1:09:12 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
To me that seems a little odd. Until others came forward here... you did not appear to be willing to admit that you started kindergarten at age 4. There are currently no states which allow a child who will not turn 5 until December 29 to enter kindergarten.

So it is a very good thing that I am not 4 years old trying to enter Kindergarten today. Your brilliant detective work on that issue continues to dazzle us all.

"Of course this is not nearly as odd as your repeated claims that the FBI grants almost all military security clearances and numerous other statements you have made which are easily disproved as well."

And yet, the only thing you have actually managed to disprove is that I am not exceptional. You forced me through brilliant detective work to finally begrudgingly confess that yeah, I'm actually much more amazing than I wanted to admit after all. How's that working out for you?

"You still haven't made any attempt to give a valid reason why the person occupying the most powerful position in the world should not be required to provide the verifiable documentation that so far Obama has refused to."

To who? You? Are you serious?

You have framed the question poorly, IMHO. It would be more meaningful had you asserted that:

"You still haven't made any attempt to give a valid reason why the person occupying the most powerful position in the world should not be required to jump through hoops to satisfy a fringe group of conspiracy theorists who would never vote for him anyway."

Seems to me, the answer to that is hardly a mystery.



Now... I love your list of Presidential Birthplaces. I make two observations:

First, it is false that Obama's birthplace is unknown. It is known based on exactly as much documentation as exists for all but at most 8 of the other President on that list.

Second, I'm curious about exactly how you know any of those other Presidents were born where your list says?

Have you seen their long form birth certificates?
49 posted on 02/22/2010 1:44:52 PM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: EnderWiggins
EnderWiggins, I am starting to become a little concerned for you. You posted only around fifty times today which came to just twenty five printed pages for me to add to your file. You have done so much more on many of the other days in the month since you first joined the Free Republic. This latest post to me was very rambling and certainly not of the same quality of many of your other biting posts.

You will have to forgive me. When it comes to detective work... I am more of a Columbo than a Jessica Fletcher. (In case you are typing from an outsourced troll office in India, those are both detectives from popular American television shows. You should be able to look them up on the Internet.) Toward the end of the show Columbo frequently said, “One thing was bothering me.” I was hoping that we could drop this kindergarten thing, but it still bothers me. Let me tell you why...

My wife was born in August of 1956. You say you were born on December 29, 1956 several months after her. If you had been born just three days later, you wouldn't have been allowed to start Kindergarten in any state in the country in 1961. The vast majority of parents in 1961 would have chosen to not start you in Kindergarten until the following September. Yet when I congratulated you for graduating from West Point at such a young age... you first claimed that most of your classmates were the same age as you. My wife was always acutely aware that the other kids were older than her. I would think that you who were several months younger than she, and having many classmates a year or more older than you and being a boy... would be far more aware than her that you were one of the youngest kids in all of your classes. It simply strains believability that given the age advantages your school mates had over you in size, maturity, sporting events etc. that this would not have been something that your posts would have acknowledged immediately.

You must be aware that anyone who is a member of the West Point Association of Graduates can search the Register of Graduates. Organized by class year, this cumulative register provides birth date, state of birth, a brief summary of assignments, retirement date, rank, occupation and mailing address. There is also an indication, where appropriate, if an individual is a descendant or ancestor of another graduate. I asked a friend who is also a graduate to search the database. He has been working on it. So how many persons graduating in the class of 1978 do you suppose he found were born after December 29, 1956 and would be younger than you? You are an alumni right? Why don't you tell us. Why don't you also tell us how many people he found in the class of 1978 who were born on December 29, 1956. “One thing was bothering me.”

50 posted on 02/22/2010 7:46:04 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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