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Palinís Support of McCain: Not A Mathematical-Political Equivalence
A Collection of Freeper Wisdom | me

Posted on 03/27/2010 1:48:22 PM PDT by reasonisfaith

Anyone who abandons support for Sarah Palin because she campaigned for McCain is going to have to demonstrate a bit of consistency. Otherwise, sincerity and honesty are liable to come into question.

The argument can be reduce to this core notion: Palin’s support of McCain means she is equivalent to McCain. In other words, in political terms she is the same thing as McCain.

So if this is the way things are supposed to be done, of course we will have to abandon support for anyone else supporting McCain in the Arizona primary. Maybe this will make some of us slow down a bit.

But that’s not all. Because if support for McCain bestows a sort of mathematical, political equivalence with him, then that equivalence carries through with even more distant political alliances. By which I mean, we will be forced to reject any particular politician x who supports Palin, and by the same means we must reject any politician y who supports politician x. And for any politician z who supports politician y, you’re not getting our vote either.

If we are to be consistent, we must identify the chain of support all the way down the line. Because the entire chain is defined by the initial link. The initial link which is Palin’s support of McCain.

So it never ends in this game of political equivalence, until all the dominoes have fallen. Silly at best, self destructive at worst. I think the error in judgment took place in the beginning, with the conclusion that Palin’s support of McCain somehow transformed her into McCain himself.

It’s a form of tunnelvision--an inability to comprehend the importance of the larger context--otherwise known as a lack of common sense.

And then there are the socialists disguised as conservative posters, whose life agenda is to thwart Sarah Palin. They aim to stop her or any other Reagan-like individual who would threaten to save our country from Marxism.

A much better approach is to slow down and look at the individual, making a common sense judgment of their standing based on their entire record. And always focus on principles.


TOPICS: Education; Government; Miscellaneous; Politics
KEYWORDS: az2010; leavesarahalone; leavethetrollsalone; liberalfascism; mccain; obama; palin; palin2012; palinmccain2012; politics; pretzellogic; sarahpalin; socialism; teaparty
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Sarah Palin is not John McCain, a fact based on her record as well as her rhetoric. She is a high-value target, and her enemies are posing as conservatives on this site. Don’t be fooled by them.

This vanity comes entirely from an idea by another Freeper: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2481051/posts?page=15#15

1 posted on 03/27/2010 1:48:23 PM PDT by reasonisfaith
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To: counterpunch; Batman11; TCH; Blue Highway; grannyheart2000; J Edgar; arbooz; 3722535r; ICAB9USA; ...

The anti-Palin nuts are trying a bit too hard on this one.


2 posted on 03/27/2010 1:54:37 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: rintense

(used your idea)


3 posted on 03/27/2010 1:55:49 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: reasonisfaith

yep, Can anyone say that Michelle Bachmann is polluted because she said that she likes Sarah and asked her to campaign for in two weeks on two fundraisers and rallies? of course not.......most of those attacking have a history of leaning for another candidate, just check their post history, it tells you who they support!!!!


4 posted on 03/27/2010 1:59:20 PM PDT by Bigtigermike (Loose lips sink ships, stay away RINO's)
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To: reasonisfaith
LOL.

I told you on the other thread.

Palin is not running for office. Defending Palin's support for McCain is the same as defending McCain.

Who cares if the libs are trashing her. She holds no political office and therefore carries no legislative power. In fact, she gave up that power.

You are trying to equate two different things. We supported Palin only because she was better than McCain.

Now you want us to support McCain again, because of Palin, over a better candidate - Hayworth.

You can't have it both ways.

5 posted on 03/27/2010 2:00:56 PM PDT by raybbr (I hate B(ig) H(ead) Obama)
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To: reasonisfaith
It is because of what she is doing for McCain that makes me like here even more.
I know she has her views that don't necessarily coincide with John's but she is honest, loyal, and has the integrity of a future leader.
Unwilling to throw McCain under the bus.
6 posted on 03/27/2010 2:03:26 PM PDT by lucky american (If you think the Libs care about your health.....LOLOLOL)
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To: raybbr

Actually, Palin is not equivalent to McCain. Her support of him is not eqivalent to his political identity.

Please read the initial posting before replying to a thread.


7 posted on 03/27/2010 2:16:08 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: reasonisfaith
Actually, Palin is not equivalent to McCain. Her support of him is not eqivalent to his political identity. Please read the initial posting before replying to a thread.

I never said she was the equivalent.

But, thanks for posting from

8 posted on 03/27/2010 2:19:35 PM PDT by raybbr (I hate B(ig) H(ead) Obama)
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To: reasonisfaith

She’s in a tough spot. How can she not campaign for him after he helped put her on the national stage.


9 posted on 03/27/2010 2:24:26 PM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: reasonisfaith; All

I totally agree .. Palin is nothing like McCain.

I do feel that he is USING HER because he knows he’s in BIG, BIG trouble .. and he also knows she can draw the crowds.

While McCain may talk a good game, he rarely lives up to his words. Palin on the other hand, is the opposite. She promised him she would campaign for his senate race if he did not win the presidency. I don’t believe that at the time she made the promise, that she had been attacked so badly by the McCain campaign - who were jealous of her popularity with the public. I will forever be curious why McCain didn’t stop them .. was he jealous of her himself ..??

My concern is two-fold. I’m curious where the fickle public will stand if McCain wins, or if McCain loses. Will they dump her because McCain wins; or will they say she’s a loser if McCain loses. Can’t figure that out.

As for me, I still support her because I understand her need to keep her word, even at her own expense.


10 posted on 03/27/2010 2:25:02 PM PDT by CyberAnt (HEALTHCARE IS NOT A "RIGHT"!!)
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To: reasonisfaith

Ms. Palin does not have the right to try to include the TEA Party as a supporter of John McCain. She needs to leave the TEA Party out of her speeches extolling him. I resent, as a TEA Party member, her speech yesterday at a rally for him in AZ.


11 posted on 03/27/2010 2:32:55 PM PDT by winkadink (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell)
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To: winkadink

Based on your thought process, I think you should be required by law to take an exam before voting.


12 posted on 03/27/2010 2:37:26 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: reasonisfaith

She will have to re-establish her conservative status by denouncing McCain’s views on amnesty. Then all will be forgiven!


13 posted on 03/27/2010 2:44:29 PM PDT by chooseascreennamepat
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To: reasonisfaith
"...if support for McCain bestows a sort of mathematical, political equivalence with him...'

This is getting as bad as the evo/crevo and north/south civil war threads; please try, just once, to understand and get off of the high horse.

There isn't any "mathematical, political, or other formula involved!

To support McPain is anathema to approximately half of those on FR.
To support McPain is to work against the other hopeful - who happens actually to be a conservative.
Running RINOs as an expedient got us Obama and the Governator(!)
Palin should be doing everything in her power to position herself for a run in 2012 - if she intends to do so - and stumping for Juan isn't positioning her anywhere but on a losing streak.
For that matter, and regardless that her supporters try to insist otherwise, her presentations so far have not progressed beyond campaign generalities and do NOT suggest that she has any valid concepts as to what needs to be done or even what she is facing.
It is too early to marry your vote to any single candidate, I have preferences as well but I will not preclude anyone who comes up with a better plan.

Finally, for the same reasons that the Huskster crowd and social conservative bloc drove away support from the larger body of conservative voters, your insistent denigration of anyone who does not share your fetish is irritating, juvenile, and counter productive.

14 posted on 03/27/2010 2:51:21 PM PDT by norton
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To: reasonisfaith

President Palin can call in some politcal chits with McCain when she’ll need them.


15 posted on 03/27/2010 2:52:51 PM PDT by frankenMonkey ("Natural Born Citizen" - US Constitution, 1787; "Words have meaning" - Barack Obama, 2009)
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To: norton

I’m not precluding anyone either.

I’m only saying that Palin cannot be equated with McCain’s RINOism simply because she campaigns for his conservative principles.

I have yet to see a well thought-out response to the true assertion that her failing to campaign for him would have brought much worse on her.


16 posted on 03/27/2010 2:58:18 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: norton

And let me see your list of politicians who have supported RINOs, and your statement that you will no longer support them.

Remember to include anyone who has supported the ones who supported RINOs, and the ones who supported the ones who supported the ones who supported RINOs, and so on.


17 posted on 03/27/2010 3:02:21 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: raybbr

That’s pretty good. Some of you guys are funny.

But I don’t think you can take me on without resorting to ridicule or silliness.


18 posted on 03/27/2010 3:03:38 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: norton

Our country is being overthrown, and you’re crying about getting off the “high horse?”

Look at the facts, buddy! Palin knows how to take the country back, and she will!

Forget McCain.


19 posted on 03/27/2010 3:17:21 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: reasonisfaith

Bottom line, socialism cannot be sold on its own merits because it’s nothing but a worthless junk of an ideology.

The socialist cannot recruit people to their cause by offering the opportunity to intrude into the lives of others, reject absolute truth or wallow in the cesspool of envy. Or the promise that you can pretend to care about the completely fraudulent notion of social justice because you’re really in love with yourself above all else. Even less, the chance to live life gazing in self-adoration into the narcissistic pool of “social justice.”

Although McCain has been gazing into that pool—which is the source of all political corruption—for many years, Palin gives every indication that she has resisted it.

And her support of McCain cannot be equated with his rino style of politics.


20 posted on 03/27/2010 3:27:38 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: reasonisfaith
That’s pretty good. Some of you guys are funny.

Thanks, I'm glad you have retained a sense of humor.

But I don’t think you can take me on without resorting to ridicule or silliness.

You can't reason with intransigence so injecting a little humor is a way of saying "Neither one of us is going to change the other's mind so let's have some fun."

I respect your opinion. I really do. You have convictions and that's good. I wish Sarah did, too.

21 posted on 03/27/2010 3:32:23 PM PDT by raybbr (I hate B(ig) H(ead) Obama)
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To: reasonisfaith

The list is on my homepage...


22 posted on 03/27/2010 3:33:41 PM PDT by rintense (Only dead fish go with the flow, which explains why Congress stinks.)
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To: raybbr; parsifal

Nice touch. Reminds me of how another troll works.

But Sarah will prevail in this, anyway.

(raybbr, who knows how to use the high-level tactics)


23 posted on 03/27/2010 3:38:44 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: reasonisfaith
Some people just don't understand consistency and loyalty and class. How could Palin NOT support McCain for Senate after running with him on a presidential ticket? Th eMedia would eat her alive.

She will make a perfunctory effort to campaign for him now and, if he loses the primary, campaign hard for McLame's opponent to win in the fall.

24 posted on 03/27/2010 3:43:53 PM PDT by PackerBoy (Just my opinion ....)
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To: reasonisfaith
But Sarah will prevail in this, anyway.

Sigh, you still don't get it. This is about McCain. Sarah is making it about her, too.

raybbr, who gets it

25 posted on 03/27/2010 3:44:48 PM PDT by raybbr (I hate B(ig) H(ead) Obama)
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To: Bigtigermike

“.......Most of those attacking have a history of leaning for another candidate, just check their post history, it tells you who they support!!!!”

I don’t know the history of anyone else, but I was completely enamored with Sarah Palin when she came on the scene.....And I can’t think of anyone else who would consider running for POTUS at this point that I would vote for.....Romney, Huckabee, Paul.....No.....I’ve taken my kicks out in public defending her on more than one occasion....


26 posted on 03/27/2010 3:45:00 PM PDT by 3722535r
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To: reasonisfaith

Outstanding reasoning. It won’t make a dent in the palin-haters, though. Their opposition to Palin is not based in reason.


27 posted on 03/27/2010 3:48:05 PM PDT by rae4palin (RESIST--REPEAL--IMPEACH)
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To: raybbr
Another plausible reason she's supporting McCain: If she plans on running for President herself, she's going to need some backing from the GOP establishment. And she's going to need an experienced, senior Senator who will help pass her agenda.

I want McCain to lose too. But I doubt that it's going to happen.

28 posted on 03/27/2010 3:48:08 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Islam is incompatible with American traditions and values)
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To: reasonisfaith

Long before the summer of 2008, I respected the man known as the “maverick of the Senate.”


29 posted on 03/27/2010 3:48:37 PM PDT by deport
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
Another plausible reason she's supporting McCain: If she plans on running for President herself, she's going to need some backing from the GOP establishment. And she's going to need an experienced, senior Senator who will help pass her agenda. I want McCain to lose too. But I doubt that it's going to happen.

Will McCain step aside and let her run on her own if he's still around?

30 posted on 03/27/2010 3:49:40 PM PDT by raybbr (I hate B(ig) H(ead) Obama)
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To: reasonisfaith
The argument can be reduce to this core notion: Palin’s support of McCain means she is equivalent to McCain. In other words, in political terms she is the same thing as McCain.

That is a false premise. Everything that follows from that will be a fatally flawed conclusion.

31 posted on 03/27/2010 3:50:22 PM PDT by TigersEye (Duncan Hunter, Jim DeMint, Michelle Bachman, ...)
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To: reasonisfaith
:And let me see your list of politicians who have supported RINOs, and your statement that you will no longer support them."

Please pay attention:
It isn't about who supported who!

It's about your great conservative hope supporting America's numero uno RINO today...against an actual conservative. The majority of us supported McCain in the general, because he was the only thing we were offered, didn't like it but went along and hoped for the best. Most of us in California supported Arnie when that was our only choice, but no one was too surprised when we got a brain dead liberal for governor.

Now is not the time for her to support a proven also-ran, it's a time for her to make her case for the nomination (again, it whe wants it) and to compete with other potentials. So far she has not done that.

Unless you can show me some valid reason to believe that Hayworth is less conservative than McCain, and that ain't gonna happen, then Palin is on the wrong side. It doesn't matter what her reasons might be, and "loyalty" is a slim reed, McCain cannot but harm her position and open the door for anyone else.

That's fine with me, not because I dislike her but because I want to see who and where the conservatives are.

By the way, did McCain not speak out against the Tea Party movement? If I remember Correctly, he has rejected the whole idea of a conservative movement within the party. If I'm right, her appearances with the Tea Party clash with her support for Juan; just what does she stand for? (No cliches please, apple pie is not a political position)

32 posted on 03/27/2010 3:52:21 PM PDT by norton
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To: rae4palin
Their opposition to Palin is not based in reason.

Precisely... It's based on ppm/Kool-Aid in the bloodstream.
33 posted on 03/27/2010 3:53:10 PM PDT by Bellagio
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To: All

Apparently all of the arguments in support of Palin are going to boil down to character assassination of anyone who is upset with her support of McCain. There is no substance or rational logic in that so it’s a waste of time to bother with them.


34 posted on 03/27/2010 3:57:43 PM PDT by TigersEye (Duncan Hunter, Jim DeMint, Michelle Bachman, ...)
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To: reasonisfaith
(Didn't see this one 'till after my last post)

"I have yet to see a well thought-out response to the true assertion that her failing to campaign for him would have brought much worse on her."

Sara Palin was THE voice of conservatism once the party had pushed McCain into the nomination.
She singlehandedly brought him up to a vote count that was not an embarrassment to us all; she done good and McCain owes her far more than she owes him because otherwise he'd have gone down like a stone.
She has a lot of positive momentum and good will among the rank and file, if not within the party itself.
She quit as governor presumably to make a bid for the presidency and to allow Alaska to operate without the media circus and frivolous litigation her new fame brought about; good for her.

She is in a position to name her own fate and so far she has not shown so very well.

The 2008 campaign is over, she does not need to keep responding to SNL and to who can or cannot see Russia from the back porch.
The 2008 campaign is over and she does not need to cement her links with America's least appealing RINO. At best, she should have made a statement about two capable and sincere candidates in the Arizona race and then stayed out of it. In that way she would not have betrayed any loyalties to Juan and she would not be opposed to the state's, and the country's, conservative voters.

As it is today, she has not progressed past generalities in her Fox appearances or at the Searchlight rally, she has not transitioned from what was to what could be - the 2008 election versus the 2012 election. Worse still, she has not maintained her direct links with conservatives but has sullied it by reversing course to support a man who Arizona must now be thoroughly sick of and ready to dump into whatever receptacle is available at the time.

(I might be wrong on that last part, after all, Napolitano came from Arizona.)

35 posted on 03/27/2010 4:12:05 PM PDT by norton
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To: reasonisfaith

Thank you for remembering me.

parsifal, who is laying low


36 posted on 03/27/2010 5:16:36 PM PDT by parsifal (Abatis: Rubbish in front of a fort, to prevent the rubbish outside from molesting the rubbish inside)
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To: norton; All

You used a lot of words to say, “Sarah is finished, now.”


37 posted on 03/27/2010 6:49:23 PM PDT by rae4palin (RESIST--REPEAL--IMPEACH)
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To: TigersEye

“That is a false premise. Everything that follows from that will be a fatally flawed conclusion.”

You just restated the thesis of my argument.


38 posted on 03/27/2010 7:16:46 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: TigersEye

“Apparently all of the arguments in support of Palin are going to boil down to character assassination”

Are you sure you want to overlook these, just for starters:

1) Sarah Palin took on corruption in her own party and won, sending some of the corrupt politicians to jail. In her own party.

2) She pushed through a natural gas law, a major political accomplishment that takes a huge step toward energy independence, that nobody else was able to do for decades.

3) Palin cut back on the perks of her own office, refusing a salary increase and getting rid of the jet.

4) She also cut 85% of pork barrel projects as soon as she came to office.

5) Let’s examine her entire political career in general, during which she has consistently refused—despite the daily temptations—to give in to corruption, and always put the interests of her people before anything else political.

6) This makes her a better leader and more qualified for the presidency than 99% of all the politicians who have set foot in Washington for the past two centuries.


39 posted on 03/27/2010 7:22:41 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: norton

Wow. You must be quite tired, and overworked.

Take a couple weeks off—the ability to organize your thoughts should come back gradually.


40 posted on 03/27/2010 7:27:06 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: parsifal; raybbr

Oh, no.

I’m starting to feel twinges of affection for the trolls.


41 posted on 03/27/2010 7:29:55 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Show me one example where the results of Democrat policy are not the opposite of what they promise.)
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To: reasonisfaith

That’s one of our Saul Alinsky tricks. Be likable.

parsy, who is now ducking for cover.


42 posted on 03/27/2010 8:30:44 PM PDT by parsifal (Abatis: Rubbish in front of a fort, to prevent the rubbish outside from molesting the rubbish inside)
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To: reasonisfaith

Here are some facts.

Palin crossed the aisle to get Dems to go along with an increase in taxes on the oil companies.

Palin prior to deciding to join McCain stated that she did not endorse McCain because of his stance on ANWR.

McCain never changed his stance leaving Alaska and ANWR on the chopping block.

We Alaskans who voted for her to become Governor see her supporting a Senator who is against everything about Alaska and now she wants to make a travelogue aout Alaska while supporting McCain.

Your vanity is based on the antics of emtionalism and foolishness.


43 posted on 03/27/2010 8:37:43 PM PDT by theanchoragedailyruse
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To: raybbr

EXACTLY! They miss the point that it is not a two part equation... This contest is a three part equation, involving a far better candidate: JD Hayworth. The issue cannot be reduced to that of Palin’s electability, because she is NOT running for office. So all the subterfuge that McCain supporters are throwing out so to diffuse legitimate criticism of Palin not supporting a true conservative (especially when it is McCain we are looking to oust) is plain bull crap. They are comparing apples and oranges. We are not disputing Palin’s credentials, we are disputing the logic of supporting a RINO SOB versus supporting a viable strong conservative. It may be politically expedient in some twisted way, but it is not the best move for the country... and especially now!


44 posted on 03/27/2010 9:09:06 PM PDT by TCH (DON'T BE AN "O-HOLE"! ... DEMAND YOUR STATE ENACT ITS SOVEREIGNTY !)
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To: lucky american

Oh, so its OK if she throws America under the bus to save McLame’s hide? What are you going to say if McCain gets another 6-year shot at shoving amnesty down our throats because Hayworth loses due to Palin’s influence? When RINO Johnny Jerk-off starts voting with the socialists for another six years... are you going to say we should cut him slack because Palin did?


45 posted on 03/27/2010 9:15:00 PM PDT by TCH (DON'T BE AN "O-HOLE"! ... DEMAND YOUR STATE ENACT ITS SOVEREIGNTY !)
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To: norton; reasonisfaith

Excellent points! I agree, and especially with the last.


46 posted on 03/27/2010 9:21:06 PM PDT by TCH (DON'T BE AN "O-HOLE"! ... DEMAND YOUR STATE ENACT ITS SOVEREIGNTY !)
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To: reasonisfaith

You just do not get it, do you?

NO ONE IS EQUATING PALIN WITH MCCAIN!

That is sheer subterfuge on your part.

What we are all trying to hammer through your iron skull is that SUPPORT for John McCain, a RINO, is a DEFEAT for JD Hayworth, a CONSERVATIVE... AND THUS A DEFEAT FOR AMERICA!

I could care less what Palin’s justifications are at this point. The issue is that if McCain wins re-election, then AMERICA LOSES!

How much simpler can it be put to you?


47 posted on 03/27/2010 9:27:29 PM PDT by TCH (DON'T BE AN "O-HOLE"! ... DEMAND YOUR STATE ENACT ITS SOVEREIGNTY !)
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To: reasonisfaith

Quote from post 16:

“’m only saying that Palin cannot be equated with McCain’s RINOism simply because she campaigns for his conservative principles.”

His “conservative principles”? Are you joking? McCain has no principles, never mind conservative ones!

But then you continue a few posts later...
Quote:

“And her support of McCain cannot be equated with his rino style of politics.”

Which is it? His conservative principles or his RINO style of politics? I think you are terribly confused, both of what the stakes are and of what the consequences will be should McJackass get another six years to screw America into oblivion... But hey, what the heck! We could do worse than Obama, right?


48 posted on 03/27/2010 9:37:07 PM PDT by TCH (DON'T BE AN "O-HOLE"! ... DEMAND YOUR STATE ENACT ITS SOVEREIGNTY !)
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To: rae4palin

Reasoning?

Reason has no place in this subterfuge.

Palin is not the direct issue here, since she is not in office nor running for any office.

THE ISSUE IS John McCain... and the damage HE WILL DO, if HE gets RE-ELECTED TO OFFICE.

Do you think we should all make a deal with the Devil just to save face? Because that is exactly what you and the other spin doctors here seem to be arguing.

I supported Palin, I like Palin... a great deal... and I will likely support her should she decide to throw her hat in the ring come 2012 (If we still have a country by that time)

BUT PALIN IS WRONG ON THIS ONE DECISION. PERIOD.


49 posted on 03/27/2010 9:46:41 PM PDT by TCH (DON'T BE AN "O-HOLE"! ... DEMAND YOUR STATE ENACT ITS SOVEREIGNTY !)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

“I want McCain to lose too. But I doubt that it’s going to happen.”

If McCain wins, it will be because NOBODY HERE STOOD UP TO STOP HIM... It will because you are all so damn enamored with and focused on whether or not the world loves Sarah Palin, that you were willing to let a DANGEROUS RINO obtain another SIX YEARS IN POWER, just so to spare Sarah a little humiliation (which will not matter one bit to her supporters were she to run for office again) when you COULD have worked hard to get a true CONSERVATIVE INTO McCAIN’S SEAT! DAMN IT!


50 posted on 03/27/2010 9:53:11 PM PDT by TCH (DON'T BE AN "O-HOLE"! ... DEMAND YOUR STATE ENACT ITS SOVEREIGNTY !)
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