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Founder and Historian David Ramsay Defines a Natural Born Citizen in 1789
puzo1.blogspot.com ^ | 4/2/2010 | Mario Apuzzo, Esq

Posted on 04/02/2010 2:13:33 PM PDT by rxsid

"Friday, April 2, 2010
Founder and Historian David Ramsay Defines a Natural Born Citizen in 1789

In defining an Article II “natural born Citizen,” it is important to find any authority from the Founding period who may inform us how the Founders and Framers themselves defined the clause. Who else but a highly respected historian from the Founding period itself would be highly persuasive in telling us how the Founders and Framers defined a “natural born Citizen. ” Such an important person is David Ramsay, who in 1789 wrote, A Dissertation on the Manners of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen (1789), a very important and influential essay on defining a “natural born Citizen.”

David Ramsay (April 2, 1749 to May 8, 1815) was an American physician, patriot, and historian from South Carolina and a delegate from that state to the Continental Congress in 1782-1783 and 1785-1786. He was the Acting President of the United States in Congress Assembled. He was one of the American Revolution’s first major historians. A contemporary of Washington, Ramsay writes with the knowledge and insights one acquires only by being personally involved in the events of the Founding period. In 1785 he published History of the Revolution of South Carolina (two volumes), in 1789 History of the American Revolution (two volumes), in 1807 a Life of Washington, and in 1809 a History of South Carolina (two volumes). Ramsay “was a major intellectual figure in the early republic, known and respected in America and abroad for his medical and historical writings, especially for The History of the American Revolution (1789)…” Arthur H. Shaffer, Between Two Worlds: David Ramsay and the Politics of Slavery, J.S.Hist., Vol. L, No. 2 (May 1984). “During the progress of the Revolution, Doctor Ramsay collected materials for its history, and his great impartiality, his fine memory, and his acquaintance with many of the actors in the contest, eminently qualified him for the task….” http://www.famousamericans.net/davidramsay/. In 1965 Professor Page Smith of the University of California at Los Angeles published an extensive study of Ramsay's History of the American Revolution in which he stressed the advantage that Ramsay had because of being involved in the events of which he wrote and the wisdom he exercised in taking advantage of this opportunity. “The generosity of mind and spirit which marks his pages, his critical sense, his balanced judgment and compassion,'' Professor Smith concluded, “are gifts that were uniquely his own and that clearly entitle him to an honorable position in the front rank of American historians.”

In his 1789 article, Ramsay first explained who the “original citizens” were and then defined the “natural born citizens” as the children born in the country to citizen parents. He said concerning the children born after the declaration of independence, “[c]itizenship is the inheritance of the children of those who have taken part in the late revolution; but this is confined exclusively to the children of those who were themselves citizens….” Id. at 6. He added that “citizenship by inheritance belongs to none but the children of those Americans, who, having survived the declaration of independence, acquired that adventitious character in their own right, and transmitted it to their offspring….” Id. at 7. He continued that citizenship “as a natural right, belongs to none but those who have been born of citizens since the 4th of July, 1776….” Id. at 6.

Here we have direct and convincing evidence of how a very influential Founder defined a “natural born citizen.” Given his position of influence and especially given that he was a highly respected historian, Ramsay would have had the contacts with other influential Founders and Framers and would have known how they too defined “natural born Citizen.” Ramsay, being of the Founding generation and being intimately involved in the events of the time would have know how the Founders and Framers defined a “natural born Citizen” and he told us that definition was one where the child was born in the country of citizen parents. He giving us this definition, it is clear that Ramsay did not follow the English common law but rather natural law, the law of nations, and Emer de Vattel, who also defined a “natural-born citizen” the same as did Ramsay in his highly acclaimed and influential, The Law of Nations, Or, Principles of the Law of Nature, Applied to the Conduct and Affairs of Nations and Sovereigns, Section 212 (1758 French) (1759 English). We can reasonably assume that the other Founders and Framers would have defined a “natural born Citizen” the same way the Ramsay did, for being a meticulous historian he would have gotten his definition from the general consensus that existed at the time.

Ramsay’s article and explication are further evidence of the influence that Vattel had on the Founders in how they defined the new national citizenship. This article by Ramsay is one of the most important pieces of evidence recently found (provided to us by an anonymous source) which provides direct evidence on how the Founders and Framers defined a “natural born Citizen” and that there is little doubt that they defined one as a child born in the country to citizen parents. Given this time-honored definition, which has been confirmed by subsequent United States Supreme Court and some lower court cases such as The Venus, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (Marshall, C.J., concurring and dissenting for other reasons, cites Vattel and provides his definition of natural born citizens); Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857) (Justice Daniels concurring took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively); Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830) (same definition without citing Vattel); Slaughter-House Cases, 83 U.S. 36, 21 L.Ed. 394, 16 Wall. 36 (1872) (in explaining the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment clause, “subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” said that the clause “was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States;” Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94 (1884) (“the children of subjects of any foreign government born within the domain of that government, or the children born within the United States, of ambassadors or other public ministers of foreign nations” are not citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment because they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States); Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875) (same definition without citing Vattel); Ex parte Reynolds, 1879, 5 Dill., 394, 402 (same definition and cites Vattel); United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890) (same definition and cites Vattel); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) (quoted from the same definition of “natural born Citizen” as did Minor v. Happersett); Rep. John Bingham (in the House on March 9, 1866, in commenting on the Civil Rights Act of 1866 which was the precursor to the Fourteenth Amendment: "[I] find no fault with the introductory clause, which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen. . . . ” John A. Bingham, (R-Ohio) US Congressman, March 9, 1866 Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866), Sec. 1992 of U.S. Revised Statutes (1866)).

..."
Continued: http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/04/founder-and-historian-david-ramsay.html


TOPICS: Conspiracy; Government; History; Politics
KEYWORDS: birthcertificate; birthers; certifigate; constitution; founders; immigrantlist; naturalborn; naturalborncitizen; nbc; obama; obamaisabirther; oopsthereitis; ramsay; soetoro; usurper
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To: EnderWiggins
So Wigg-out and zot girl. What was that silly argument you would post incessantly?

Oh yeah, that the definition of Natural Born Citizen wasn't in the English translation of de Vattel's 'The Law of Nations' until 1797 and therefore you said that definition tying NBC to it didn't exist. You are an idiot. Obviously, you were soooo full of you know what...the word starts with an 'S'.

151 posted on 04/03/2010 1:00:09 PM PDT by Red Steel
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To: Verginius Rufus
I think it’s a New England trait. Didn’t JFK say “fahmah” for “farmer” and “Cuber” for “Cuba”?

Very likely. One of my customers from the Boston area had a typical set of "odd" pronunciations. Forward came out "fah-wood". Peabody was "pee'-buh-dee".

152 posted on 04/03/2010 1:00:23 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: rxsid

obumpa


153 posted on 04/03/2010 1:21:12 PM PDT by Dajjal (Obama is an Ericksonian NLP hypnotist.)
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To: Verginius Rufus
Actually, the "natural born citizen" requirement applies to one other person, the Vice President.

Was there ever a challenge to Spiro T. Agnew's eligibility?

154 posted on 04/03/2010 2:03:08 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: Drew68

I don’t know. Agnew’s father was an immigrant, but I don’t know when (or if) he became a naturalized citizen. Was his mother also an immigrant?


155 posted on 04/03/2010 2:13:54 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Verginius Rufus
I don’t know. Agnew’s father was an immigrant, but I don’t know when (or if) he became a naturalized citizen. Was his mother also an immigrant?

According to census records, his immigrant father was a resident alien (non-citizen) and his mother was American when Agnew was born. I don't know if he received citizenship later but the important fact is that he was not a citizen at Agnew's birth.

156 posted on 04/03/2010 2:17:43 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: Las Vegas Ron
Drew will tell you that osama him self could come over here and get an American girl pregnant, take the kid back and raise him in a cave then send him over here and the kid would be eligible

If he/she then spent at least 14 years on US soil, Drew would be correct. Might have a bit of a problem getting 53% of the vote though.

157 posted on 04/03/2010 2:24:55 PM PDT by MilspecRob (Most people don't act stupid, they really are.)
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To: BP2
In ALL of the federal government, the NBC requirement applies to only ONE person: the President.

Not quite. The NBC requirement also applies to the Vice President, according to the last sentence of the Twelfth Amendment:

But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice President of the United States.

158 posted on 04/03/2010 3:01:14 PM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: MilspecRob
If he/she then spent at least 14 years on US soil, Drew would be correct

You should be ashamed of your self, but at least you openly demonstrate how absurd the depth you'll sink to defend your position and love for the bamster.

If the NBC clause in the Constitution doesn't matter to you why should the 14 years? Why should he have to be 35?

Don't even bother responding, troll.

159 posted on 04/03/2010 3:15:06 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron ("Because without America, there is no free world" - Canada Free Press - MSM, where are you?)
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To: Red Steel

Damn, I almost thought the wiggster had returned, whew!


160 posted on 04/03/2010 3:17:32 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron ("Because without America, there is no free world" - Canada Free Press - MSM, where are you?)
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To: Drew68

Interesting. Agnew was born on Nov. 9, 1918 (two days before the armistice) so he should be on the 1920 and 1930 censuses, both of which are now available to the public. Which one did you consult?


161 posted on 04/03/2010 3:29:59 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: justiceseeker93; All
> In ALL of the federal government, the NBC requirement
applies to only ONE person: the President.

>> Not quite. The NBC requirement also applies
>> to the Vice President

True. And that's a scary thought as well,
but I'd take stupid over EVIL.

With the exception of perhaps the SECDEF,
there's a little bit of BOTH on this list after Obama:

US Presidential line of succession after Obama

# Office Current Officer
1 Vice President and President of the Senate Joe Biden
2 Speaker of the House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi
3 President pro tempore of the Senate Robert Byrd
4 Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton
5 Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner
6 Secretary of Defense Robert Gates
7 Attorney General Eric Holder
8 Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar
9 Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack
10 Secretary of Commerce Gary Locke
11 Secretary of Labor Hilda Solis
12 Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius
13 Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Shaun Donovan
14 Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood
15 Secretary of Energy Steven Chu
16 Secretary of Education Arne Duncan
17 Secretary of Veterans Affairs Eric Shinseki
18 Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano

162 posted on 04/03/2010 3:32:00 PM PDT by BP2 (I think, therefore I'm a conservative)
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To: Las Vegas Ron
Damn, I almost thought the wiggster had returned, whew!


Naah heehee...I like to post to the zots sometimes. I know they lurk out there. ;-) Besides, he is on my ping list I keep on my forum page. *Snicker*

163 posted on 04/03/2010 3:57:11 PM PDT by Red Steel
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To: Verginius Rufus
Which one did you consult?

Found this on the net.

1920, line 72

164 posted on 04/03/2010 5:12:47 PM PDT by Drew68
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Comment #165 Removed by Moderator

To: Drew68
Thanks. I'm too cheap to subscribe to Ancestry.com and didn't want to take the time to go to the public library to use their version of it. It looks like Agnew's mother is also marked as an Al(ien) even though she was born in Virginia--did she take her husband's citizenship by marrying a foreigner?

The problem with insisting now on the original rule that both parents must be citizens at the person's birth is that there have been exceptions which passed unchallenged at the time (Chester Arthur for VP and for President, Agnew for VP). The public seems to think that anyone born in the US is a "natural born citizen" so it's going to be hard for a few constitutional experts to set them straight.

166 posted on 04/03/2010 9:53:48 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Verginius Rufus; Drew68
"I don’t know. Agnew’s father was an immigrant, but I don’t know when (or if) he became a naturalized citizen. Was his mother also an immigrant?

According to a poster, MGB, here: http://www.therightsideoflife.com/2010/02/22/eligibility-hi-petition-launched-in-spite-of-introduced-bills/ they state that the 1910 and 1930 Census, as well as Agnew's father's WWI registration card state the he was a Naturalized citizen. His WWI reg card is dated Sept. 12, 1918 and Agnew was born Nov. 9, 1918. Coupled with a 1910 census listing that status, it appears that his father was Naturalized prior to the birth of Agnew. Therefore, Agnew would be NBC.

Of note, apparently the 1920 census lists his father's status as alien. However, that same census also lists the wrong year of his immigration.

167 posted on 04/05/2010 10:31:24 AM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: rxsid

BTTT & bookmark


168 posted on 04/05/2010 10:38:54 AM PDT by EdReform (Oath Keepers - Guardians of the Republic - Honor your oath - Join us: www.oathkeepers.org)
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To: rxsid

That about ends the speculation of Spiro Agnew’s NBC status. I would think that all the presidents and all the VPs have been sifted through and scrutinized about their origins by both the right and the left since the Obama.


169 posted on 04/05/2010 11:46:47 AM PDT by Red Steel
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To: Las Vegas Ron

He’s been an Obongo loving troll forever.


170 posted on 04/05/2010 1:51:45 PM PDT by mojitojoe (I don't care what you passed. you are irrelevant. I'll NEVER comply in any way. Read my lips, NEVER!)
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Comment #171 Removed by Moderator

To: ilfautbien3

correction... a day and a half


172 posted on 04/05/2010 1:57:56 PM PDT by mojitojoe (I don't care what you passed. you are irrelevant. I'll NEVER comply in any way. Read my lips, NEVER!)
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To: LucyT; rodguy911; Las Vegas Ron; BP2; MHGinTN; pissant; Gemsbok; little jeremiah; Fred Nerks; ...

New troll alert


173 posted on 04/05/2010 2:02:53 PM PDT by mojitojoe (I don't care what you passed. you are irrelevant. I'll NEVER comply in any way. Read my lips, NEVER!)
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To: mojitojoe

Dang - missed it.


174 posted on 04/05/2010 2:43:50 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Asato Ma Sad Gamaya Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya)
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To: BP2
US Presidential line of succession after Obama

Remember, that list only applies when all above a particular postition are "wiped out" at the same time. If the President goes, then the VP becomes President AND picks a new VP, with the advice and consent of the Senate. If both Pres and VP go at the same time, then Speakers becomes President and picks a new VP. and similarly down the list. Of course if anyone on the list is not eligible, then they do not become President if they otherwise would have.

Bottom line, barring a nuke attack on DC, I don't think we need worry about President Stretch or President Sheets, and cetainly not President Hildebeast.

175 posted on 04/05/2010 2:52:01 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: mojitojoe

Damn, I missed it, who was it?

What was the post?


176 posted on 04/05/2010 3:03:08 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron ("Because without America, there is no free world" - Canada Free Press - MSM, where are you?)
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To: Verginius Rufus
The problem with insisting now on the original rule that both parents must be citizens at the person's birth is that there have been exceptions which passed unchallenged at the time (Chester Arthur for VP and for President, Agnew for VP). The public seems to think that anyone born in the US is a "natural born citizen" so it's going to be hard for a few constitutional experts to set them straight.

Nice try, but apparently Agnew was NBC and the 1920 Census data was in error. While Arthur's status was not generally known. It was known or at least thought (correctly) that the was born in Vermont, It was also known that his mother was born in the US, and that his father had been here, or in Canada, for a good long time before his birht, and was a citizen at the time of his selection to VP. What was not known was that his father was not naturalized until well after Chester's birth(about 14 years afterwards) The latter fact was only recently unearthed.

Since "the public" did not know his status, how can you say they approved?

177 posted on 04/05/2010 3:09:28 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: rxsid
Looking at the comments at the link, and here on FR, the after-birthers are really getting desperate to show some precedence for a person with an alien father being eligible.

Even though, in the only verified case of someone with that status becoming (de facto) President, that status was not known to the public when he was elected (VP) and/or became (de facto) President.

Really, really desperate.

As if "public opinion in the late 1880s or the late 1960s/early 1970s has anything directly do with the original meaning of any term in the Constitution in the first place. It means what it meant when written and ratified. Nothing more, nothing less. That's the way written contracts and Constitutions are.

178 posted on 04/05/2010 3:23:13 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: Las Vegas Ron

Signed up 4/3/2010. Made one post today, went off on a Freeper. The trolls sure are worried about that BC aren’t they?


179 posted on 04/05/2010 3:26:09 PM PDT by mojitojoe (I don't care what you passed. you are irrelevant. I'll NEVER comply in any way. Read my lips, NEVER!)
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To: El Gato

It is amazing just how hard they are trying to show some precedent.

And yeah, “public opinion” during any period is not enough to change the Constitution in anyway, anyway.


180 posted on 04/05/2010 4:01:39 PM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: El Gato
Probably most people in the US in 1880 were oblivious to any legal issues about Chester Arthur's eligibility, and I don't recall anyone in 1968 saying Agnew wasn't eligible. That it wasn't an issue doesn't mean the public approved--they didn't weigh in.

I wish Obama wasn't President and I'm ready to rank him as the worst President in history, but the idea that he could be removed from office because some legal experts show that he doesn't meet the 1787 meaning of "natural born citizen" is beyond the realm of possibility. The public thinks he's a natural born citizen by virtue of being born in Hawaii (whether or not that's really where he was born), and he definitely got a majority of the electoral votes in 2008. He'd have to do something much worse than the Watergate coverup to be impeached and removed. Michael Steele is bent on ensuring the Democrats keep control of Congress so he won't have to worry about a Republican majority next year. We are stuck with him.

181 posted on 04/05/2010 4:06:31 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: All

So, how many of you stalwart Constitutional scholars knowingly voted for an ineligible candidate (John McCain) in 2008?


182 posted on 04/05/2010 4:16:31 PM PDT by Sloth (Civil disobedience? I'm afraid only the uncivil kind is going to cut it this time.)
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To: mojitojoe

Yeah, scared to death of a “losing, issue”, go figure.


183 posted on 04/05/2010 4:40:23 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron ("Because without America, there is no free world" - Canada Free Press - MSM, where are you?)
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To: rxsid

bookmark


184 posted on 04/25/2010 5:11:37 PM PDT by Hypo
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To: Beckwith

Do you know of a pdf of this resolution? It has been removed from the Leahy website, thanks.


185 posted on 04/25/2010 5:51:59 PM PDT by Hypo
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To: rxsid

bttt....


186 posted on 09/02/2010 8:10:53 AM PDT by Godebert
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To: rxsid

Usurpation bump to the top!


187 posted on 01/21/2011 11:41:08 AM PST by Godebert
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Ramsays arguments were rejected by the first Congress. The opposition debate was lead by James Madison, who said in response to Ramsay, “It is an established maxim, that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but, in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States.”

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsp&fileName=037/llsp037.db&recNum=15

Oops. That should pretty well settle that. Those who actually wrote the Constitution rejected the notion that citizen parents were required to be a natural born citizen.


188 posted on 04/05/2011 7:28:51 PM PDT by mystylplx
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To: mystylplx

Not true.

In fact one of the first laws passed by Congress said... “And the children of such persons so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty-one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as CITIZENS of the United States.” and then goes on... “And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of
the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship SHALL NOT descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States:”


189 posted on 05/12/2011 2:56:16 PM PDT by djf ("Life is never fair...And perhaps it is a good thing for most of us that it is not." Oscar Wilde)
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To: BP2

bfl


190 posted on 05/12/2011 6:06:15 PM PDT by shield (Rev2:9 "Woe unto those who say they are Judah and are not, but are of the synaGOGue of Satan.")
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To: mystylplx
"Ramsays arguments were rejected by the first Congress. The opposition debate was lead by James Madison, who said in response to Ramsay, “It is an established maxim, that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but, in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States.”

"Oops. That should pretty well settle that. Those who actually wrote the Constitution rejected the notion that citizen parents were required to be a natural born citizen."

Complete Obot disinformation.

The case was about the eligibility of William Loughton Smith to hold his newly won seat (1788) in congress. David Ramsay, his opponent, contended that Smith did not meet the seven years a citizen requirement for congressmen as written in the Constitution.

In a nutshell:

Smith (b. 1758) was sent to England by his father Benjamin in 1770 at the age of 12 years. Later that same year, his father died, a British subject, six years prior to the Declaration of Independence. Smith's mother died in 1760. William Smith did not return to America until 1783, after the bloody fight for our freedom was finished.

Ramsay basically asserted correctly that Smith's father Benjamin could not have passed U.S. Citizenship to his son as he died six years prior to the Declaration of Independence in 1776.

I believe Mr. Jackson in reply to Mr. Madison's argument, said it best:

The case was decided by vote in committee in favor of Smith, with the objections of Mr. Jackson as noted above. Political considerations seem to have trumped reason in this case, as there is no possible way that Smith could have been considered a U.S. Citizen prior to the year 1783, when he arrived in the newly created United States as a young man in his twenties.

191 posted on 01/31/2012 4:36:02 PM PST by Godebert (NO PERSON EXCEPT A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN!)
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To: Godebert

Thanks for such a delightful kick of the ass.


192 posted on 01/31/2012 4:48:02 PM PST by aruanan
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To: aruanan

My pleasure.


193 posted on 01/31/2012 4:59:15 PM PST by Godebert (NO PERSON EXCEPT A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN!)
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