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Does The U.S. Need To Split?
84rules News & Commentary Blog ^ | April 9, 2010 | 84rules

Posted on 04/09/2010 9:58:57 AM PDT by 84rules

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To: 84rules
There is a movement in the immigration ranks that are pushing for parts of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado? and Texas be given back to Mexico.

There is no end to outrageous ideas. They are not likely to be achieved peacefully or legally. Most will not willingly allow changes that endanger their lives .......

Oh, wait Health care passed, now we are destroying 1/3 of our nuclear weapons and we are not producing new ones, We have a Muslim president. No one can argue he was raised Muslim (Islam), and defends all things Islam, and criticizes all things Christian.

Maybe we better rethink what is and has occurred. Our freedom and liberty has a menacing black cloud hovering over us called new taxation. We are in a position to have the government take most all our money earned for taxes and to tax us out of our homes, via the EPA and new regulations forcing the cities to tax much more (taxing on rainwater run off. For everyone. When the states increase taxes, the city taxes increase, the school tax increases, property taxes increase, gasoline taxes increases, heating and air conditioning taxes raise substantially, sales taxes increase, airport taxes increase, transportation taxes raises the price of food, medical expenses increases, etc. ... income taxes increases, and social security is cut back, carbon taxes are levied, and coming is the UNITED NATIONS taxes/world tax to pay our share as we are a rich nation. !!!!!! Then suddenly everyone will wake up and say "WHAT HAPPENED?" TOO LATE. FREEDOM LOST IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO RECOVER. ALL SORTS OF CHANGES TO OUR AUTOMOBILES, AND HIGH FEES FOR THOSE NOT COMPLING BY BUYING SMALL HYBRID CARS, CHANGES REQUIRED IN OUR HOMES/WINDOWS, HEATING/ AIR CONDITIONING/ KITCHEN APPLIANCES/ WASHERS/ DRYERS, ETC. Do not shrug this off ... it is right now on the planning drawing boards and the steps to do this is in process. Implemented quickly. Etc. and ETC. God help us in our day, in Jesus name, Amen.

51 posted on 04/09/2010 10:57:05 AM PDT by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: little jeremiah
A lot of those who identify with leftist crap would change their minds if they were exposed to truth instead of MSM leftist propaganda.

Would 60% of the people ever accept getting rid of Social Security, Medicare, etc just with being exposed to the truth? No.

How about in the Conservative portion after splitting up the country. Maybe.

Years of handouts have made even conservative-leaning people so accepting of the idea of a Mommy government that change is difficult. In our current country, I'd say its impossible, no matter how much you try to educate people.

52 posted on 04/09/2010 10:58:15 AM PDT by Wissa ("So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."-Padme Amidala)
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To: knarf
This is the most dangerous of questions and should not be considered ... even academicaly.

THEN WHY DID THE FOUNDING FATHERS WRITE WHAT THEY DID IN THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE? Were they fools then? They described & set the terms and conditions for just such an event to happen now did they not? To say Never gives tyranny a foothold and safe refuge. The founding fathers disagreed with you as many throughout our nations history. Just because the first Republican POTUS Trash Canned the Constitution of the United States and tried to disolve states rights does not make it right even today. Indeed many states today are rightfully reclaiming their rights to self govern and It's About Time.

53 posted on 04/09/2010 11:00:10 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Smokin' Joe
If they don't like it, they have a wide assortment of socialist governments to choose from when they emigrate. There is only one USA.

As of right now, the USA is their country just as much as it is ours. Trying to beat them into submission will only prolong the fight.

I'd prefer two USA's (one being an actual Conservative one) to the current situation.

54 posted on 04/09/2010 11:03:36 AM PDT by Wissa ("So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."-Padme Amidala)
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To: geologist
There is a movement in the immigration ranks that are pushing for parts of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado? and Texas be given back to Mexico.

There is no end to outrageous ideas. They are not likely to be achieved peacefully or legally. Most will not willingly allow changes that endanger their lives ....... will we?

Oh, wait Health care passed, now we are destroying 1/3 of our nuclear weapons and we are not producing new ones, We have a Muslim president. No one can argue he was raised Muslim (Islam), and defends all things Islam, and criticizes all things Christian.

Maybe we better rethink what is and has occurred. Our freedom and liberty has a menacing black cloud hovering over us called new taxation. We are in a position to have the government take most all our money earned for taxes and to tax us out of our homes, via the EPA and new regulations forcing the cities to tax much more ...

(taxing on rainwater run off. For everyone.

When the states increase taxes,

the city taxes increase,

the school tax increases,

property taxes increase,

gasoline taxes increases,

heating and air conditioning taxes raise substantially,

sales taxes increase, airport taxes increase, transportation taxes raises the price of food,

medical expenses increases,

... income taxes increases,

and social security is cut back,

carbon taxes are levied,

and coming is the UNITED NATIONS tax The United Nations Tax,

The World tax, because we are os rich (it is only fair

Then suddenly everyone will wake up and say " WHAT HAPPENED?"

TOO LATE. FREEDOM LOST IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO RECOVER. ALL SORTS OF CHANGES TO OUR AUTOMOBILES, AND HIGH FEES FOR THOSE NOT COMPLING BY BUYING SMALL HYBRID CARS, CHANGES REQUIRED IN OUR HOMES/WINDOWS, HEATING/ AIR CONDITIONING/ KITCHEN APPLIANCES/ WASHERS/ DRYERS, ETC.

Do not shrug this off ... it is right now on the planning drawing boards and the steps to do this is in process. Implemented quickly. Etc. and ETC.

The amazing thing is ... in Obama's campaign rhetoric: he told us the intentions he had,

TO FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE AMERICA,

TO REDISTRIBUTE WEALTH,

TO BUILD HIS OWN NATIONAL DEFENSE CORP AS WELL EQUIPPED AS OUR ARMY,

CAP AND TRADE,

IMMIGRATION AMNESTY,

NO MORE COAL MINING,

NO DRILLING FOR OIL.

WE HAVE MARXIST RADICALS IN CHARGE OF OUR GOVERNMENT.

And that is just for starters. do you have any illusions about what life will be like when our income disappears right before our eyes by taxation?

GET THE VOTE OUR IN OCTOBER AND PRAY, PRAY, PRAY.

God help us in our day, in Jesus name, Amen.

55 posted on 04/09/2010 11:04:22 AM PDT by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

“Especially large, productive parts?’

Do we have those anymore?

“all the reason the UN would need to impose international peacekeepers on the US, who would be welcomed by the Global Socialists, and who would have no compunctions about killing and looting here.”

Hit the nail on the head there! A split is exactly what our enemies want. There is no way Indiana could defend itself against UN troops or a Mexican “Red Dawn” invasion. Don’t think for a minute they haven’t thought of that!

“If there is to be a fight, it is for all of us, together, to reinstate our Constitutional Republic”

We “free states” must hang together. If California or New York (or whatever) refuse the Constitution then good riddance!

In the (first) Civil War the south did not have the means of production as the north did otherwise it might have turned out different.

Only if the majority of the states agree to reject the Federal Government could there be any victory. The “means of production” we need to be concerned about is the taxes that keep the Fed going. If that were cut off it would fall.


56 posted on 04/09/2010 11:09:38 AM PDT by vanilla swirl (To argue witha person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead)
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To: little jeremiah
The entire country seceding from Wash. DC might be a solution

The Tenth Amendment and original intent are the solution to hammering the Feds back within the bounds of the Constitution, and the budget will provide the incentive, if the loss of freedom has not.

57 posted on 04/09/2010 11:12:19 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: cva66snipe; All
Fortunately, it seems most everyone is interpreting "split" as "State's Rights".
58 posted on 04/09/2010 11:13:58 AM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: Smokin' Joe
As long as there are men and women who love our Republic in the Armed Forces, they will do their best to retain that credibility--their lives depend on it.

Having served in the U.S. Marines, I am one of them. And my oath was to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. It was not to defend a nation or to take orders from a government that is becoming more and more corrupt and trampling on the very constitution I swore to defnd "against all enemies both foreign and domestic."

Many in the military today feel the same way (but regulations prevent them from speaking out about it). I would guess that approx. 75% of today's military would join the seccessionist states. (If I were still in uniform, I would do so.) It's not about preserving their own livelihoods. It is about preserving freedom and upholding their oaths.
59 posted on 04/09/2010 11:15:52 AM PDT by 84rules ( Ooh-Rah! Semper Fi!)
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To: Wissa
As of right now, the USA is their country just as much as it is ours. Trying to beat them into submission will only prolong the fight.

The 'fight' as you put it has been going on for nearly 200 years. Ben Franklin said "A Republic, if we can keep it."

It won't end, and retrenching into a few conservative areas will only give our philosophical enemies all the room they need to regroup and renew their assault. They are Global Socialists, with all that implies, and will not quit until defeated. Period.

The only way to shorten the fight is to give in. I'm not wuitting.

I'd prefer two USA's (one being an actual Conservative one) to the current situation.

There is only one USA, there cannot be two or the 'U' falls off. That was addressed before.

60 posted on 04/09/2010 11:17:59 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

And the fact that the entire government is going to go bankrupt (IMO) there wno’t be any money to continue with unocontsitutional activity. 80% of what the fedgov does is directly in opposition to the Constitution.


61 posted on 04/09/2010 11:20:13 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Asato Ma Sad Gamaya Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya)
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To: Wissa

Note my comment above - without money, the fedgov cannot continue to give unconstitutional bennies.

The sooner the better it happens, say I. So people will have to go through some pain to get there. The pain’s gonna happen no matter what. The universe’s Tough Love. It’s needed.


62 posted on 04/09/2010 11:21:38 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Asato Ma Sad Gamaya Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya)
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To: 84rules

Wow - didn’t know this was being openly discussed...
I haven’t read enough yet, but how in the world would we “Split” when we are interspersed as we are? I’m guessing if it’s a “traditional split” like back during the Civil War with those wanting Obama & the Dems up North - I would need to go South (I’m in Wisconsin!!!).


63 posted on 04/09/2010 11:24:07 AM PDT by LibertyRocks (http://libertyrocks.wordpress.com ~ Anti-Obama Gear: http://cafepress.com/NO_ObamaBiden08)
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To: Smokin' Joe
The Tenth Amendment and original intent are the solution to hammering the Feds back within the bounds of the Constitution, and the budget will provide the incentive, if the loss of freedom has not.

And if half the population is opposed to strictly following the Tenth Amendment and original intent? I'm not seeing much of a general outcry in the population for getting rid of Social Security.

64 posted on 04/09/2010 11:24:31 AM PDT by Wissa ("So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."-Padme Amidala)
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To: Wissa

That’s an EXCELLENT explanation! I was thinking the same...


65 posted on 04/09/2010 11:27:23 AM PDT by LibertyRocks (http://libertyrocks.wordpress.com ~ Anti-Obama Gear: http://cafepress.com/NO_ObamaBiden08)
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To: Smokin' Joe
The 'fight' as you put it has been going on for nearly 200 years. Ben Franklin said "A Republic, if we can keep it."

The only way to shorten the fight is to give in. I'm not wuitting.

Suit yourself. I'd prefer having a solution over having a fight.

66 posted on 04/09/2010 11:31:31 AM PDT by Wissa ("So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."-Padme Amidala)
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To: 84rules
If 75% of those currently serving feel that way, and I'd guess a majority of veterans as well, why split the country, as so many seem to feel is a good (imho, ill conceived) idea?

It has been tried, it cost much--immeasureably more than can be stated--and did little good save to end an institution which was failing of its own accord. The evils it imposed may be far greater.

Instead, reinstate the Republic.My ancestors fought for the Confederacy, and I cannot condone the idea of secession except as a final resort.

We have always had those present who do not agree with our way of life, our belief in individual rights invites their presence, our prosperity ensures it, our security guarantees it.

A majority of the population is against the current socialist leanings of our own government. Stop that, stop the handouts, and how many would want to keep the fruit of their labors? How many would want the freedom to decide how they spend their earnings and not have that imposed upon them?

While it remains possible, we need to peacefully remove as many Socialists from power and turn this around, not tear it down.

If it becomes no longer possible, then, and only then should other options receive serious consideration.

67 posted on 04/09/2010 11:31:33 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: 84rules

I should say, reading through the thread I’m not convinced there is not remedy available to us still, without any need for a split at this time.


68 posted on 04/09/2010 11:33:28 AM PDT by LibertyRocks (http://libertyrocks.wordpress.com ~ Anti-Obama Gear: http://cafepress.com/NO_ObamaBiden08)
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To: Wissa
I'd prefer having a solution over having a fight.

There is no solution. Only a struggle. You can no more eliminate the concept of despotism from the human psyche than you can the concept of freedom. Why do you think "Eternal vigillance is the price of Liberty?"

69 posted on 04/09/2010 11:34:02 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Wissa

“I’d prefer two USA’s (one being an actual Conservative one) to the current situation.”

Suppose that the USA did split into two parts, one conservative and the other liberal. Do you think for a moment that liberals wouldn’t next try to undermine the conservative part? I promise, they would. They won’t stop until they own everything. A nonproductive parasite can only exist as long as it feeds off a succession of fresh hosts.


70 posted on 04/09/2010 11:34:19 AM PDT by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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To: Smokin' Joe

A very strong, and convincing argument, Joe. I too, do not think now is the time for this action. There is remedy still available to us I believe...


71 posted on 04/09/2010 11:35:39 AM PDT by LibertyRocks (http://libertyrocks.wordpress.com ~ Anti-Obama Gear: http://cafepress.com/NO_ObamaBiden08)
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To: LibertyRocks
I should say, reading through the thread I’m not convinced there is not remedy available to us still, without any need for a split at this time.

I'd agree with that, but I think there's value into opening the discussion now and giving people time to think through whether it might not be the ideal outcome. Otherwise it could lead to a civil war instead of an amicable divorce.

72 posted on 04/09/2010 11:40:53 AM PDT by Wissa ("So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."-Padme Amidala)
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To: Smokin' Joe
A majority of the population is against the current socialist leanings of our own government. Stop that, stop the handouts, and how many would want to keep the fruit of their labors? How many would want the freedom to decide how they spend their earnings and not have that imposed upon them? While it remains possible, we need to peacefully remove as many Socialists from power and turn this around, not tear it down. If it becomes no longer possible, then, and only then should other options receive serious consideration.

I completely agree with all of this. But I don't think it will be possible if the Dems get their way and manage to make any of their agenda permanent. Already, many so-called "Conservatives" are surrendering on the idea of repealing Obamacare. If that continues, then it won't matter what the majority of the population wants because the politicians (of both major parties) in D.C. won't do anything to implement the will of the people.

When that kind of environment exists in D.C., a split becomes a necessity. I am not yet advocating such a split (I am simply encouraging a public debate on the issue), but if it were to happen tomorrow, I see no reason to give my loyalty to those currently sitting in D.C.
73 posted on 04/09/2010 11:42:01 AM PDT by 84rules ( Ooh-Rah! Semper Fi!)
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To: TexasRepublic
Suppose that the USA did split into two parts, one conservative and the other liberal. Do you think for a moment that liberals wouldn’t next try to undermine the conservative part?

If the Conservative part were the states that actually produced things like oil, gas and food, the libs wouldn't have the means necessary to do any undermining. For example, what if all the Gulf Coast states seceded? Where would the rest of the states get their gasoline and fuel oil from? (Most of the U.S. refining capacity is in those states. Hell, even if only Texas seceded, it would be a disaster for the other 49.) What if most of the farming states seceded? Where would cities like New York get enough food to feed themselves? (New York City only has a three day supply of food if the food shipments suddenly stopped.)
74 posted on 04/09/2010 11:48:51 AM PDT by 84rules ( Ooh-Rah! Semper Fi!)
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To: TexasRepublic
Suppose that the USA did split into two parts, one conservative and the other liberal. Do you think for a moment that liberals wouldn’t next try to undermine the conservative part? I promise, they would. They won’t stop until they own everything. A nonproductive parasite can only exist as long as it feeds off a succession of fresh hosts.

I don't think your approach of continuing to keep the existing parasite within our body is preferable to isolating and excising it.

75 posted on 04/09/2010 11:50:17 AM PDT by Wissa ("So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."-Padme Amidala)
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To: Wissa

“I don’t think your approach of continuing to keep the existing parasite within our body is preferable to isolating and excising it.”

I understand, but you must consider the practical consequences of trying to physically excise the parasites when half a state is filled with them. We are a nation of 300 million people. Forcibly relocating half (or even a quarter) of them would result in one of the largest social upheavals in world history. Are you ready to do that? We are in big trouble, either way.


76 posted on 04/09/2010 12:44:47 PM PDT by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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To: TexasRepublic
I understand, but you must consider the practical consequences of trying to physically excise the parasites when half a state is filled with them. We are a nation of 300 million people. Forcibly relocating half (or even a quarter) of them would result in one of the largest social upheavals in world history. Are you ready to do that? We are in big trouble, either way.

If there's a voluntary geographic division of the country there wouldn't be a need for forcibly removing anybody. Conservatives will voluntarilly pack up and move out of the liberal area if they find themselves on the wrong side of the line, and people that value their Social Security check more than freedom will voluntarilly relocate to the liberal side.

It wouldn't matter to me where they drew the boundaries. I'd be moving to the land of freedom. If it was decided to put Texas into the liberal area, would you stick with it because you like the geography, or would you pack up and move elsewhere to regroup where the Conservatives are?

77 posted on 04/09/2010 12:55:00 PM PDT by Wissa ("So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."-Padme Amidala)
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To: Wissa
I'm a Texan til the day I die.
78 posted on 04/09/2010 12:58:10 PM PDT by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: Richard Kimball
I'm a Texan til the day I die.

I'm a libertarian/conservative til the day I die. I don't define myself by my mailing address.

79 posted on 04/09/2010 1:02:40 PM PDT by Wissa ("So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."-Padme Amidala)
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To: Wissa

I’d say that a majority of people in either camp would not voluntarily leave, for a variety of reasons.


80 posted on 04/09/2010 1:14:18 PM PDT by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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To: TexasRepublic
I’d say that a majority of people in either camp would not voluntarily leave, for a variety of reasons.

Nobody says they have to. They can stay as long as they're willing to live under the terms of their "new" country.

If its decided that a split is the only realistic alternative to a full-blown civil war, with only one winner imposing its will on the other side by force, I think people would make a choice when they need to.

81 posted on 04/09/2010 1:25:01 PM PDT by Wissa ("So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."-Padme Amidala)
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To: knarf
Fortunately, it seems most everyone is interpreting "split" as "State's Rights".

It's the first step. If congress can respect that then I see no problem. If a majority of persons say in California want to live under third world conditions and a Nanny State then let them as a state. Just stop trying to impose such on the rest of the nation.

If congress refuses to honor states rights? The founding fathers showed us what must be done. That should be a last resort but never taken of the list of possibilities.

82 posted on 04/09/2010 2:11:18 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Wissa

I don’t think there is any harm in discussion — is that not what Freedom of Speech is for? :)


83 posted on 04/09/2010 2:34:56 PM PDT by LibertyRocks (http://libertyrocks.wordpress.com ~ Anti-Obama Gear: http://cafepress.com/NO_ObamaBiden08)
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To: Wissa

I can’t possibly see Texas in your example — but I was just posing this question to my husband... We’d pick up and move (can’t see wi on the right side). I wonder though how many would be able to voluntarily move — are we talking about modern “wagon trains”? I can’t possibly see these logistics working though... And, I can’t see the Dems agreeing to “let” us go, either. I hope this never becomes reality. Although part of me wishes there was a place to “start over” with the Constitution — don’t get me wrong on that.

I still think there are enough people in this country who are NOT in DC that Constitutional restraint can be brought to bear again if we are educated and vigilant... The only problem is the commies are 2 generations ahead of us on that front...

Still - reinventing the wheel, is not preferable to fixing one that is broken is it? Is our government “totaled”, or merely leaking oil, and making some scary “knocks” but still running?


84 posted on 04/09/2010 3:24:17 PM PDT by LibertyRocks (http://libertyrocks.wordpress.com ~ Anti-Obama Gear: http://cafepress.com/NO_ObamaBiden08)
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To: LibertyRocks
I can’t possibly see Texas in your example..

The geography is irrelevant. Texas is conservative because conservative people life there. If they all moved to Massachusetts they'd still be conservatives.

I wonder though how many would be able to voluntarily move — are we talking about modern “wagon trains”? I can’t possibly see these logistics working though...

There would certainly be some upheaval, but we're a relatively mobile society now. People aren't risking their lives like they were in the time of literal wagon trains. If you tell the freedom-loving people which side of the border is free, and they'll find a way to get there without any assistance. Tell the freebies-loving people where they can find their freebies and they'll get there on their own. Right now, nobody has to provide assistance to the people from Gary, Indiana for them to find their way to Minnesota to sign up for welfare.

Is our government “totaled”, or merely leaking oil, and making some scary “knocks” but still running?

I don't know, but I'm not seeing things headed in the right direction. I see this country headed toward a cliff, and once we go over the edge its too late. Could we turn before we get to the cliff? Sure, but I'm becoming more and more doubtful that we will.

I know people that are quietly bailing out of this country right now because they see what direction we're going. I'm hopeful that we can change so I don't have to leave too, but if America continues down the path toward no longer being the land of the free, I'll head someplace else. I don't want to wind up like the people in some totalitarian state that wished they would have got out while they had the chance.

85 posted on 04/09/2010 4:15:05 PM PDT by Wissa ("So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."-Padme Amidala)
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To: Wissa

The commies/globalists/perverts/fascists are all over the world, in every government, to varying degrees. South and Central America are falling like dominoes - not every country of course, but more and more. Add to the mix Muslims - there is no safe place.

Stand and fight is the only recourse.


86 posted on 04/09/2010 7:05:41 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Asato Ma Sad Gamaya Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya)
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