Posted on 04/12/2010 11:06:48 PM PDT by FrPR
Can you imagine if you had a friend who did not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, but who went on and on about their Christian faith and Christianity?
What if "Christianity" was their core identity, deeply woven into every facet of their visible life, and one about which they spoke almost incessantly?
What if your friend had, in many circles, made himself a veritable spokesman for Christianity - and yet he avowedly did not accept Jesus?
I am indebted to Christian institutions for the love and education they gave me at a tender age, and have probably been to Church more times than many of my Christian friends. However, I have always been a Jew. By birth, by faith, by choice.
I may not be a very "good" Jew, but I am not a "recovering" Jew. I am not a proto-Buddhist "Jew-Boo," and I am certainly not a "messianic" Jew. I am an American and will defend your right to believe whatever you like and worship freely. I enjoyed Christian traditions and defend them in our schools. One of my oldest friends is a Moslem Iraqi. I think he's wrong about his faith, but I love him, and he me, and we've been watching each others' backs since we were little boys. Freedom of worship and a touch of cultural respect. That's that.
As far as respect goes: If I were ever to accept Jesus of Nazareth as my personal Lord and Savior I would surely never, ever disassociate myself from the legacy, the scholarship and martyrdom of the name: Christian. If I were ever to become a Christian, I would call myself a Christian.
But what indeed is in a name?
Jews are Jews. We may disagree about almost everything else, but on messianic matters, we are in almost complete agreement. His name is not Jesus from Nazareth. His name is not Shneerson from the Bronx. Nor is he or was he any of the many hundreds of 'messiahs' to work wonders and perform miracles in our last few thousand years on this planet. It may be heartbreaking for you to know, but we just don't believe.
Jews are the fragile, beautiful, brave, extraordinarily powerful guardians of monotheism.
I believe we are here because G-d wants us to be here. I have often wondered, with all of our problems, whether the Jews would simply die off some day.
But I never thought our name would be stolen from us.
I have been increasingly irritated with the invariable treatises on Jewishness with which 'messianic jews' pepper the dinner-tables, forums, and margins of my life, and the lives of others.
They expound at length about the Jews, and their Jewishness, and the Pentateuch, and scripture. Their extemporaneous sermons are usually garnished with a touch of Hebrew. And then, at the critical moment, all about "Yeshua," the Hebrew name for Jesus. Every time.
Perhaps, if you are a Christian, you are thinking: "so what? The man described herein is saved. What does it matter if he appropriates aspects of the ancient faith, the old covenant, and weaves them seamlessly into the present Truth?"
Well? What's in a name? What if your friend told you, as many "religious leaders" will, that the Christian scriptures are now to be taken with a grain of salt, that the Church and Bible are flawed and should be adapted, piecemeal, to the secular realities of our time. He might say "...Surely, my friend, the fact that Jesus "turned the other cheek" is the only ever-present lesson for humanity, and that is enough, whether or not he existed at all. The Nicene Creed and the like are simply remnants from a dark age of clerical oppression. Christian Values are the trans-generational legacy of the faith, as emphasized by Francis Bacon, Wm. Shakespeare et al., in their transcendent interpretation. Regardless of our minor disagreements, this, surely, is the only present truth of Christianity. And I say this, as a Christian."
Juliet was wrong. A name is a very powerful and important thing.
There are many other things that creep me out.
Many Jews, myself included, try not to take the Lord's name in vain. That means (in a tradition surely passed down for thousands of years) we NEVER say the real name (as close to it as we know) and we SURELY never write it. (This is because it will be deleted, or burned, or thrown in the trash at some point - it's disrespectful.) But with 'messianic jews' - always, always, they say, and repeat, the name. This is not kosher, and it's not Jewish.
Why do they do it?
Why must so many 'messianic jews' claim to be of the Jewish faith, then twist it, and distort it, and then AMPLIFY their views incessantly, as "Jews"?
Perhaps many are too insecure to call themselves - plainly and proudly - CHRISTIANS.
Perhaps they do not wish to be fully associated with Christians. Perhaps they are trying to pull some sort of "spiritual rank" on others. If they are, why do they often do, say, and write, such un-Jewish things? Whenever I hear one of them say the name, I wince. And for a moment, I think of the devil and his clever disguises.
And once again I get all creeped out.
FrPR
truly great post. saved and forwarded.
Jesus was a jew. I am not so sure why you find it creepy. They are proud to be jewish, because as you know it isn’t just a religion.
Some ask “who am I to tell others they cannot...?”
I answer that I am NOT telling others what to believe.
I ask you: what indeed is in a name? Is someone a Jew if they simply call themselves a Jew? Is someone a Christian if they simply call themselves a Christian?
Is a Moslem a Christian because the Koran speaks of Jesus? Is he a Christian if he calls himself a Christian and speaks of Christian theology and of his love of Christ and of his own special place in the Holy Church?
Is he a Christian when he then reveals to you that Allah is G-d and Mohammed is His messenger?
He will return to rule and reign the world Yah'shua was, is and will always be a Jew.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
from Jerusalem on the throne of King David
for a thousand years ( the seventh day of Shalom )
Obviously not.
It is the right of any organization (or at least barring a USSC ruling) to determine its requirements of membership.
The unfortunate problem for a Jew however is that Jewishness is both a religion and an ethnicity.
So a question that needs to be asked (but maybe there is no answer) is does a Jew stop being a Jew if he embraces Jesus as the Messiah?
WELL PUT, IMHO.
Or rather: Why do so many CHRISTIANS insist, with great fanfare, regalia, hymns of praise, long treatises about “Yeshua” and trimmings worthy of a Brooklyn furrier, that they are in fact JEWS?
Whatever. Abi gezunt.
As ultra orthodox Jews who believe Yeshua is the Messiah, and accept both the written and the oral Torah, we can easily see why you would be put off by anyone calling themselves a Messianic “Jew.” You are correct, one can’t make teshuvah and walk contrary to Torah at the same time. Such is the warning of against false prophets. Be aware that there are frum Jewish disciples of Yeshua, and you are invited to get to know them. http://jerusalemcouncil.org
Thank you. And - Yuri’el Hillel ha’Yoda ben Shmeggege or whatever your fancy new jewish name is?
First, think twice before you take His name in vain. New covenant or no, He was pretty clear about that one.
Second, You’re in America: Speak Yiddish.
;-)
And... Welcome to Free Republic! Ours is (generally) a company of patriotic men and women who love the Lord and cherish individual liberty.
It is somewhat of a tradition here that one sends a small donation to support Free Republic on the occasion of one’s first post.
FreeRepublic LLC, PO Box 9771, Fresno, CA 93794
There are some, like a few of my sisters who were never practicing Jews who have faded in this direction because we all have come back to our Jewish roots, but ultimately, most only just scratch the surface of Judaism, and no more.
I am a Messianic rabbi, and I take great offense at this.
So, we believe Yeshua is Messiah, within a Jewish context — ever heard of the concept of Messiah ben Joseph? Rebbe Menachem Schneerson is viewed the same way by many, if not most Lubavitcher Chasidim. Do you castigate them?
I can’t speak for anyone but my congregation (Beit Tefillah Messianic Fellowship of Fresno — http://beit-tefillah.com) and my covering organization (the Coalition of Torah Observant Messianic Congregations — http://ctomc.ca), but when we celebrate festivals, it is not a lie, it is not a setup, it is not trying to fool anyone. It is simply to celebrate a festival, because we believe in those festivals. And we interpret them in ways that match our theology. But so do different groups within mainstream Judaism interpret and celebrate festivals in different ways that match their theologies. For example, some liberal Jewish groups have added a “cup of Miriam” to the Passover seder (http://www.miriamscup.com/). Do you castigate them?
Are there groups that do not truly believe in the Torah, that use Jewish trapping as a false front? Undoubtedly. Just as much as anti-missionaries like you blatantly lie about Messianics. I do not defend the groups who use Jewish trappings as false fronts. But it is not most Messianic groups that I know.
You and your Jews for Judaism/Yad L’Achim cohorts engage in falsehoods and spew your impotent anger onto the marketplace of ideas. I am sick and tired of that.
Let’s see... Rav Ignatz Lichtenstein, Chief Rabbi of Hungary in the late 1800s, was an unstudious Jewish person who didn’t study Tanach?
Rav Yechiel Tzvi Lichtenstein, renowned among the Chasidic Jews as a scholar and miracle worker, also in the late 1800s, was an unstudious Jewish person who didn’t study Tanach?
Paul Philip Levertoff, graduate of the prestigious Volozhin Yeshiva in Lithuania, also in the late 1800s & early 1900s, was an unstudious Jewish person who didn’t study Tanach?
Rabbi Daniel Zion, a chief rabbi of Sofia, Bulgaria during World War II, was an unstudious Jewish person who didn’t study Tanach?
There are many, many more I could name, but I believe I’ve made my point.
Maybe because many of us ARE?
So, how do you feel about me referring to myself as a “messianic goi”?
RavAdam. And the “Rav” means Rabbi? You are, I suppose, not a Pastor nor a Priest but a Christian Jewish Rabbi?
All of the apostles and St. Paul were Jews, they believed in Yeshua, I doubt if they mind if other Jews believe in Yeshua as the Messiah.
Ed
In the case of my three friends from Back East, they were born and raised Jewish, and their siblings and parents are still Jewish...but they found themselves eventually believing in Yeshua as Messiah.
Ed
You misunderstood me. I said I despised anyone who tricked unaffiliated Jews into coming for a Jewish holiday or event and then trying to convert them to Christianity. Since you do not do that, you cannot be offended by what I said.
Some Messianic Jewish groups do the above. Since you don’t, then all is well. I am quick to apologize when I offend anyone here at FR. However, I do not believe an apology is needed here.
There are many forms of Judaism worshiping in slightly different ways, and I believe my favorite Rebbetzin got it right when she said that it’s not for us to judge; let’s let Hashem sort it all out.
Personally, I am one of those Jews who believes the Messiah has not yet shown up. But I have nothing against anyone who differs in belief.
I’ll make my response to a few points you make in the order you made them.
First, the “unity” and “miss entirely that the Jews” thing.
I didn’t “miss” it. I was merely trying to be polite to an article written by a Jew. Strangely, I was basically trying to do the very thing you made a big point about and not shove an unwanted argument down someone’s throat.
The strict unity of God is NOT an essential part of Judaism. Let me give you a few passages:
1) Deuteronomy 6:4 says, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” But the word “one” is “ehad,” which means “a compound unity.” It means, “one made up of others.” In addition to Deut 6:4, the word “ehad” is used in Genesis 1:5, “one day,” that’s one of seven days; in Genesis 2:11, it’s “one” of four; and in Genesis 2:21, “one” of twenty-four.”
2) Then there’s Genesis 1:26, “Then God said, “Let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness...”
3) Zechariah 2:8-9 says, “For thus says the LORD of hosts, “After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye. For behold, I will wave My hand over them so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.” You have two figures here, both of whom seem to be divine. It’s the same with passages such as Psalm 110:1, which says, “The Lord said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.’” Jesus blows up the “unity” argument in Matthew 22:44-45. Again, two divine figures. And what about Genesis 18:2, where three figures approach? There’s quite a bit of that.
4) What about Micah 5:2, which says “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” We’ve got someone being born in Bethlehem who is clearly described as a divine figure.
Maybe “Judaism” demands that God be strictly unitary, as the Muslim’s Koran teaches, but their Bible which they acknowledge as the Word of G-D certainly doesn’t.
THAT’S why I didn’t mention Judaism and a strict unity of God.
The other thing I wanted to draw attention to was your statement that my “statement that there is a single “truth” other than God is naive.” I have no idea what you are talking about, since I never even come close to arguing that there is any truth whatsoever apart from God. If you are trying to say that I’m naive for thinking that all truth comes from God, and that any truth claim that doesn’t come from the God of the Bible is a lie, then you are no follower of the teachings of Jesus, who clearly teaches that there is ONE way, ONE truth, and ONE life.
I would submit that God created the universe. Which means there IS no “’truth’ other than God, unless you’ve managed to create your own universe. I would further submit that God created us in His image. How then would you find another “truth” apart from your very Creator? Where do you go? If you don’t view the world through the God’s-eye view, you cannot possibly see the world or reality as it truly is.
If you want to call that “naive,” then so be it. But I think I’m on very solid ground indeed to claim that there is no truth other than God - and His Son who said He WAS the truth (see also Jesus’ mission statement: “For this I was born and for this I came into the world: to testify to the TRUTH” (Jn 18:37).
You said, “In the business of giving advice, the first and foremost rule is don’t give a piece of advice that isn’t wanted.” But what if I didn’t want that advice? Would you not be breaking your own rule?
“Tolerance” means putting up with someone with whom you disagree. It doesn’t mean affirming all positions or viewpoints as equally valid.
I don’t need to believe that everything is equally true, or nothing is true at all, in order to have an attitude of tolerance. All I need to do is respect the fact that God created us in His image, and He gave us all free will to freely accept Him or freely reject Him.
All I need to do is follow the command given in 1 Peter 3:15, which says, “But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.”
On the one hand, this passage fundamentally tells us to ALWAYS be prepared to proselytize. On the other, it commands true followers of Christ to always be prepared to give an answer WITH GENTLENESS AND RESPECT.
Thank you both for the encouraging words.
WHAT AN EXTREMELY EXCELLENT POST.
WONDERFUL AND BIBLICAL.
GREAT TONE AND SPIRIT AS WELL.
THANKS TONS.
PRAISE GOD FOR THAT!
BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE WORD OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE WAYS OF THE LORD.
Who is it . . . Zola Levit? I forget . . . some such frequent visitor to Israel claims that there are more than 60 ORTHODOX JEWISH RABBIS IN ISRAEL
who believe that Jesus is their Messiah.
Yeshua Ha Meshia sp?
How many Orthodox Rabbis are in Israel anyway??
As you likely know . . . we have clueless Christians of various flavors who deny plainly worded Scripture about Millenial Reign observances of Festivals etc.
I consider it brazen ignorance and arrogance to fail to discern God’s heart and attitude . . . not just toward Jews . . . but toward God’s purposes, goals, ways of GLORIFYING HIMSELV via the Jewish NATION.
A lot of that is plainly stated in Scripture a lot MORE of it is between the lines.
It seems like some folks turn their brains off when reading Scripture. Crazy.
As far as my understanding goes, you’ve thoroughly misrepresented Messianic Judaism. The “Messianic” part pertains to the Messiah, Jesus Christ, in whom they believe and accept as ... the Messiah. They endeavor to live as Jews, though.
To say that this is controversial in Jewish circles is an understatement. It’s also controversial in Christian circles. But, they believe as they believe, and are entitled to do so in this country.
If you’re going to criticize them, you’re also entitled to do so in this country. But, get the facts straight before you launch into a protracted vanity about it.
Thanks for the link.
I think your fundamental error is that you tacitly define “Jew” as “Someone who selectively clings to traditions which may be only tangentially related to the actual Torah, and who rejects the Prophet Yahweh said He’d send (Deuteronomy 18:15f.).”
Reject that premise — as I do — and your case falls to the ground.
(BTW, I say that while having little patience with many manifestations of “Messianic Judaism” — but your central tenet was not about those manifestations.)
LOL!
Or is she? "Jewish", that is.
See, here's the problem. She's Christian, like me, so I guess that we're not allowed to say that she's "Jewish" in any way, right?
So, should we instead say that she's one-quarter -- Swahili? Or maybe Laotian?
Perhaps Esquimaux?
(Mrs. C_C is laughing as I type this. I don't mean to be unkind or anything, I'm just curious as to your answer).
It is true that the prophets do not mention Shneerson from the Bronx as the Anointed. Needless to say, I would be very startled to stumble across some passage referring to Shneerson from the Bronx as the Anointed. Yet, the prophets do give the True Name. One of the prophets even writes the Name along with his Messianic Title in the same verse:
Habakuk 3:13
Isaiah 62:11
The N.T. accounts are not lies and they are not referring to Shneerson from the Bronx:
Revelation 22:12-13
"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Matthew 1:21:
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus [Yeshua], for he will save his people from their sins."
When Simeon came to the Temple, led there by the Holy Spirit, and took the baby Yeshua in his arms, he said
"Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word; For my eyes have seen Your salvation [Yeshua],Not only did his eyes see God's Salvation - God's YESHUA (Jesus) - but he felt Him and touched Him.
(Luke 2:29, 30)
Cordially,
Also my more-frivolous #80.
(SideNote -- I really am curious if FrPR will argue that Mrs. Christian_Capitalist is not one-quarter Jewish. Perhaps she's actually... Dravidian?)
(SideNote#2 -- since pre-millenialists claim that we Gentiles will be "slaves" to Jews during the "Millennium" -- I try to treat Mrs. C_C very, very nicely).
How can you accept what you cannot see or hear?
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Shalom.
And thank you, Diamond, for another brilliant post concerning the truth found in Scripture.
Jesus was a Jew. Mary was a Jew. Joseph was a Jew. And we who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord, King and Savior are Jews of the circumcised heart.
May the world continue in that direction.
As my husband likes to say, "Christianity is Judaism with a happy ending."
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Amen Isa 44:18 — They have not known nor understood:for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; [and] their hearts, that they cannot understand.
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our G-d, the Lord is One!”
I am stunned.
You cite the Shema, which is perhaps the most fundamental prayer (and mission statement) in the Jewish faith, and assert that the word “one,” “ehod,” - the most important word in the Shema as spoken or sung - in this case means “a compound unity” and “one made up of others.”
This is one of the most devilishly absurd things I have ever heard. Perhaps it is the most wrong thing I have ever heard.
I am however open to the idea that I myself am somehow mistaken in my understanding of the language (that is to say, the meaning of the word ONE in the Shema), so -
I challenge you to defend this assertion - that the Hebrew word for “One,” in the case of the Shema, means “a compound unity” and “one made up of others.”
As an interger, one will find itself used to enumerate any number of lists. This doesn't alter the meaning of the one. I assure you, that the Moses wasn't attempting to explain that the Almighty, Lord and Master of creation was one of an unspecified many. And, in spite of your statement, I can't imagine any more strictly kept and fundamental essential part of Judaism, then “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” — Ex. 20:3 That is pretty plain. This is not unity of components but instead identity of the one and only true God of Creation.
But, don't trust me. Lets go to a Christian source analyzing Echad and see just how lame this "unity" argument is..
Perhaps what I mean by “important word” is: “accentuated word.” The word Ehod, in sung prayer, is accentuated.
There is no conflict with being both Jewish and Christian.
If you read the letters of Paul, esp. Romans, you can learn that it was a really BIG leap to allow Gentiles to become Christians without becoming Jews.
God shared His Grace with us through the Jews and they are the first among His children.
Thanks!
It's funny you should say that.
John 10
19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
...
30 I and my Father are one.
That is not an orthodox Christian source of any type, as evidenced by its attack on Orthodox, Catholic and most Protestant churches; its ontological and theological confusion and misrepresentations concerning the distinction between the "Who" and the "What" of God's Divine Nature, its rewriting of the history of the Christian Church, and its complete lack of sourcing for any of its misrepresentations of said history.
Cordially,
It is somewhat amusing how people fight and argue about religion. At least we can be grateful people like you in this country are just whining and aren't killing people over religious preferences.
A Jew is a Jew was not one of the more illuminating comments I've ever read. It means nothing. A better question is "Who is a Jew?"
You demand an answer to a silly question.
Your question was:
“My wife is about one-quarter Jewish. Conversos/Sephardic heritage from Spain, by way of Mexico. Or is she? “Jewish”, that is. See, here’s the problem. She’s Christian, like me, so I guess that we’re not allowed to say that she’s “Jewish” in any way, right? So, should we instead say that she’s one-quarter — Swahili? Or maybe Laotian? Perhaps Esquimaux? (Mrs. C_C is laughing as I type this. I don’t mean to be unkind or anything, I’m just curious as to your answer).”
Well who am I to call your wife names? You call your wife a Christian. Is she not a Christian? Frankly I don’t care. Nor do you, evidently. Is it okay with you if I do not have an answer to your silly question?
Ha.. I didn't know we had to go for the Orthodox vote. It was just convenient. I did find it a bit odd that he was going to some of the places he did, as I am not used to seeing that from a Christian. But, his phraseology and obvious Christian reverence put him more in your camp than mine.
I agree with what this fellow wrote and most of his citations and statistics are pretty plain being direct from old and new testament sources. To me all of these arguments are familiar but I liked that they were all in the same place to give you a single link. If we want to challenge the statistics he presents on the incidence of the usage of Echad, that could be legitimate, but I am pretty sure this is the correct number. Feel free to write him and do this. But, I feel no obligation to attempt to use the twistings and turnings of apologists to disprove themselves. Christians and Jews have a very different view of history, and this fellow believes as I do that the Council of Nicaea made a grave error when they attempted the Trinity to elevate Jesus to Godhood. This is a pat Jewish position, don't be shocked when a Jew takes it. If we believed otherwise, there wouldn't be any Jews.
Honestly, this is a frequent Christian practice, to attempt to inject what isn't there and to argue that the Torah supports Christianity by implication, while distorting all that is there. My daughter is taking a course on the Tanakh (they call it the Old Testament) at a Christian school and she was shocked to have to deal with claims that the Angel who came to Abraham to stop him from sacrificing Issac was Jesus. I mean, come on. But, that sort of thing is built on the very same sort of sand that you are attempting to build this wild redefinition of Echad. Perhaps you believe in a living Constitution as well.
A strong argument could be made that Rabbinic Judaism is equally unfounded in Torah and this very argument was made by the Sadducees all those many years ago, and revisited by the Karalites. The Scholars claimed that the Oral Torah was passed from Moses via the Prophets and Scholars around the Priests and only codified under the most dire circumstances when the whole of the Jewish Rabbinate was on the edge of oblivion following the Bar Kochba rebellion.
This understanding of God is not something that is far away, it is not something that only one person possesses to share. The understanding of God that Jews claim is what it is, it may not by your understanding, but I just think it is lame of you to attempt to characterize that understanding as anything but what it is, whether that supports your position or not.
Nevertheless, ultimately millions of Jews have died, many in agony in supplication and humility that there is but one God who holds our lives in his hands to do as he will, and any other stance is a rejection of the Commands to not worship idols and not to accept any God or God figure that stands between or before the Almighty instead of the one and only Almighty Source of all. Rabbi Akiba dying under the Roman flail prayed this very prayer, "Shema Israel, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad." And I assure you, he wasn't implying a Triune Godhead at the time. Make of it what you will, to a Jew, Echad still means One.
The same souls who adhere to caterpillian subjectivity with regard even to the most fundamental meanings of the simplest words scream:
TRUTH!
TRUTH!
TRUTH!
As they redefine.
My objection is not regarding the definition of echad, but is with your selection of a source as representative of normative, historic Christianity that appears to be some sort of variant of "Oneness" Pentecostalism, a small, very weird, heretical group of sects that began around 9101, and then, in 1906 in Los Angeles, which are really nothing more that West African tribal religious customs (read, hypnotic trance induction) repackaged as "Christianity".
Christians and Jews have a very different view of history, and this fellow believes as I do that the Council of Nicaea made a grave error when they attempted the Trinity to elevate Jesus to Godhood. This is a pat Jewish position, don't be shocked when a Jew takes it. If we believed otherwise, there wouldn't be any Jews.
I have no need to challenge his statistics. I am a monotheist. I don't know why he went to all the trouble when one can easily consult a lexicon to discover the same information. There is only one God.
6Thus says the LORD, the King of IsraelOur views of history do differ. Your source may be convenient because he agrees with your version of the history of the doctrine of the Trinity, but relying on these weirdos as scholastic giants is probably not a very safe bet. See, Letters from an Ex-Pentecostal,
and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
"I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god."
Isaiah 44:6
Thomas Fudge, in his book “Christianity Without the Cross," surveys 27 early Pentecostal leaders. Only one, Eudorous N. Bell graduated from college – an institution of higher learning. "Formal education was unnecessary when one had access to the Holy Spirit.” (Fudge, 51) Fudge reports, “... [t]he overwhelming majority of early Pentecostal leaders were either uneducated or poorly educated.” (Fudge, 50)Glance over that entire article for an overview of that person's experience in one of these groups. I find it ironic that you then complain about distortion and misresentaiton of Scripture while citing these nutcases as authority for some doctrinal or historical proposition or other.
p. 31
I mean, come on. But, that sort of thing is built on the very same sort of sand that you are attempting to build this wild redefinition of Echad. Perhaps you believe in a living Constitution as well.
Living Constitution? Oy vey! And I say that as a Gentile.
This understanding of God is not something that is far away, it is not something that only one person possesses to share. The understanding of God that Jews claim is what it is, it may not by your understanding, but I just think it is lame of you to attempt to characterize that understanding as anything but what it is, whether that supports your position or not.
I agree with you in principle on this. You should therefore understand that it a pat Christian position to accept Jesus Christ's view of Scripture.
John 5
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people. 42But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"
Nevertheless, ultimately millions of Jews have died, many in agony in supplication and humility that there is but one God who holds our lives in his hands to do as he will, and any other stance is a rejection of the Commands to not worship idols and not to accept any God or God figure that stands between or before the Almighty instead of the one and only Almighty Source of all. Rabbi Akiba dying under the Roman flail prayed this very prayer, "Shema Israel, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad." And I assure you, he wasn't implying a Triune Godhead at the time. Make of it what you will, to a Jew, Echad still means One.
Written by a 1st century Pharisee:
Romans 9
1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Even Jesus' enemies understood what he was claiming:
John 10
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one."31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?" 33The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." 34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." 39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.
Cordially,
Because being Jewish is not merely a religion, it is both a religion AN ethnicity, you can be agnostic and Jewish unless you explicitly convert to another religion.
>> So a question that needs to be asked (but maybe there is >> no answer) is does a Jew stop being a Jew if he embraces >> Jesus as the Messiah?
According to mainstream Judaism, most definitely YES.
mmm.. attack the man...when you cannot attack the facts. You look at where he is coming from rather than what he is saying. As I said.. it was convenient and I don't hold him as a Normative Christian source but instead I just offered it was a Christian source which you do not deny as you launch a fusillade of disparagement of the person.
Irregardless, as I said, it was convenient and I really didn't check his pedigree. I respect Pentecostals and Seventh-day Adventists because they at least get the day of Sabbath correct, the "Normative" Christians still bow to the Roman Emperor to this very day fully knowing their error. I don't know why he went to all the trouble when one can easily consult a lexicon to discover the same information. There is only one God.
I found the statistical table the most interesting thing on his page... because it showed the the use of Echad implying a "unity" as opposed to the numeric declaration or ordinal as being the smallest minority of uses. Good quote though. But to someone who is ready to find the Trinity in the "Shema" I doubt even such a clear declaration in Isaiah would have that much meaning.
I agree with you in principle on this. You should therefore understand that it a pat Christian position to accept Jesus Christ's view of Scripture.
One must remember what set me off on this tear.. Michael Eden said.."The strict unity of God is NOT an essential part of Judaism." and them is fighting words. And Christian pat positions are of no help in Characterizing what Jews believe or do not. Agreed?
1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Romans offers some of the best and worst of Christian writings. For Jews, it is certainly the most irritating book of the lot. Nevertheless, Saul of Tarsus, called "Paul" also claimed to be a Pharisee, and Jesus though he preached against the Hypocrisy of the Pharisees is claimed to be a student of Hillel. At the time, the Sadducees controlled the rituals of the Temple, but the nominal kings of the time placed the a Pharisee in charge of all. The division between Sadducee and Pharisee is over the existence and authority of the Oral Torah. The Sadducees lost this argument perhaps 100 years before Herod and were placed in a subordinate position to the Pharisees by the various rulers as a political move. This was a difficult and dangerous time, and ultimately as the power and wealth of the Jewish state rose, the problems of the absolute impossibility of integrating Jews in "Normative" Roman society grew.
Worse, there is all evidence that Herod's "improvements" of the Temple were accompanied by inclusion of increasing "Profane" elements and this was just a continuation of the corruption that Herod promoted and left as a legacy that lead eventually to the destruction of the Temple and the Jewish state. Zealots were everywhere and those who were a obstacle were removed by all sides.
It is shocking to the conscience though that you would answer Rabbi Akiba's morning prayer with this bit of confused Pharisaic hair pulling.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
Its funny, Zen buddhists read this phrasing and nod their heads saying "He gets it" except that God stuff.. whew. The Buddhist philosophy and especially the Zen insight offer a knowledge of the "oneness" of all, that there is no individual just the illusion of an individual. Obviously, Jesus didn't mean that when he uses these worlds following an appeal to immortality of the individual who chooses to follow his teachings. This any Zen Buddhist would laugh at as clinging. And strangely, the same response would be very much a Jewish response. Though, part of the Pharisaic revolution was the adoption of the concepts of heaven, hell and the resurrection of the dead where are not from Torah. These were appealing because the promised Justice in the world to come, when it seemed that no justice was available in the world of the living. However, this understanding has slipped from the center of current Judaism and the more traditional understanding that God gives a human a soul when he breaths life into them, seems to be the more accepted understanding. This very connection to God, the soul, is but loaned to us and while we live we sense the connection that our soul provides and the separation that our identity creates and the soul longs to return to its source just as much as it loves its identity and the delights of the mortal experience.
However, upon death, this soul is called back to God as the pain of separation is great. The attachment to the body and its life is great too and it is said to take up to a year for the soul to let go.
Jews equally take this year to let go of a lost loved one, and only lay the grave stone after this period out of respect for the newly departed. Some, newly departed though are so weighed by the shame of their sin or clinging to what was lost that they reject God and and attempt to hide from God's presence.
Jews are warned to never communicate with the dead because spirits who stay often have evil ends and use evil means. The rites observed on the death of an individual are meant to respect the dead but also to avoid being entangled by them. The famous "Red Heifer" is used to purify those who come into contact with the dead, which the Ancients saw as an immediate and ever present problem.
Rather, Jews don't talk about heaven or the afterlife because the concepts promoted about an eternal identity are confusing to the spirit and promote selfish behavior that only serves to prevent rather than assist the return of the soul to its true identity. But, in the core of this and the understanding that no individual is truly ever "separate" from God, all manor of foolishness and confusion is possible when someone tries to explain this.
Jews instead see the price of evil behavior being passed to the following generations as an inheritance. And conversely, the way of righteousness paves the way for those who follow. Rather than seeking personal gain in the life beyond, one is encouraged to commit to doing the work of God's will here and now, for the good of all men, not just Jews.Christians see man as fallen and only able to be lifted from evil by being "saved" and the reward of this only to be delivered in the afterlife. Jews see evil as but one choice that the human can make, but practice and Torah give us the opportunity to make another choice, to choose the work of God and a life of working towards holiness and eventually peace and prosperity for all mankind here in this life. We believe God has gives us all that is necessary for this goal if we would but work at it.
Our prayer for the dead, the Mourners Kaddish talks not about the soul or heaven, but instead focuses on the work of making a better world for the living, the children of our inheritance.
The ultimate goals of Christians and Jews are very different, yet our values and means are much the same. It is demanded that Jews pursue holiness, those who do not, become lost. Many fall prey to those who make all sorts of promises. This is a time where many Jews are lost, worshiping the false idols of Socialism, Liberalism and Hedonism. But, many many many times more "Christians" are lost just the same. People of faith can trade blows all day and not make a difference in the life of a single soul. People of courage and faith and conviction just get about the work of making a difference.
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