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Gartner Says Android to Become No. 2 Worldwide Mobile Operating System in 2010
Gartner Research ^ | September 10, 2010 | Gartner

Posted on 09/10/2010 8:56:33 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier

STAMFORD, Conn., September 10, 2010 —    The worldwide mobile operating system (OS) market will be dominated by Symbian and Android, as the two OSs will account for 59.8 percent of mobile OS sales by 2014, according to Gartner, Inc.

...

Gartner predicts that by 2014, open-source platforms will continue to dominate more than 60 percent of the market for smartphones. Single-source platforms, such as Apple's iOS and Research In Motion's OS, will increase in unit terms, but their growth rate will be below market average and not enough to sustain share increase. Windows Phone will be relegated to sixth place behind MeeGo in Gartner's worldwide OS ranking by 2014.

(Excerpt) Read more at gartner.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Computers/Internet
KEYWORDS: android; ios; rim; symbian
In two years from brand-new to number 2. A meteoric rise for Android!
1 posted on 09/10/2010 8:56:37 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier
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To: PugetSoundSoldier; rdb3; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; GodGunsandGuts; CyberCowboy777; Salo; Bobsat; ...

2 posted on 09/10/2010 8:58:20 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: for-q-clinton; driftdiver; Swordmaker

Android ready to leap from number 3 (behind Symbian and RIM) to number 2, in just the next few months.


3 posted on 09/10/2010 8:58:21 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: ShadowAce

WOW - that was FAST! :)


4 posted on 09/10/2010 8:59:25 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

Wow, everyone else is flat or declining.


5 posted on 09/10/2010 9:02:30 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

This might be why Apple made the change on the C# running on its OS.


6 posted on 09/10/2010 9:05:00 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

I am baffled at the money that MSFT is throwing into the Win7 moble OS. I think this is a waste of time; they missed the boat, by a long ways.

IMHO, in 3 years the market will settle into
30% iOS, especially if Verizon, T-Mobile and others go with Apple.
30% Android - the Open OS is going to plauge Apple. This will be augmented by developers who create a great game, then export their software to run on Android.
20% Research in Motion (RIM) - the Blackberry is the only accepted Gov’t smartphone, and the inertia that Blackberry has in the Industrial market is going to be tough to break.

This leaves 20% for Symbian, WebOS, Microsoft and other niche’ players.


7 posted on 09/10/2010 9:06:38 AM PDT by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: driftdiver

Yeah, Apple completely backpedaled on their “no interpreters running on iOS!” meme. I thought it was for security? I guess security doesn’t matter when you’re getting steamrolled by that upstart OS called Android.


8 posted on 09/10/2010 9:08:54 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: Hodar

Look at the link. Gartner predicts a different market shakeout in 3 years.

Symbian 30.2

Android 29.6

Research In Motion 11.7

iOS 14.9

Windows Phone 3.9

Other 9.6


9 posted on 09/10/2010 9:10:53 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Hodar

My guess is that Microsoft is eyeing Symbian overseas. Android is also a big player in Asia. In Asia, you really need multi-lingual support, and Windows Phone 7 excels at it (I’ve played with it, inside Microsoft’s Shanghai offices - experience is seamless when configured as Chinese or English or German - the 3 languages I tried).

Symbian also gets the multi-language support right. Android still has a way to go. iOS is pretty poor, in this regard.

I think Gartner is pretty much spot-on. Symbian has a MASSIVE lead right now (40%+ of the market), and that will take a few years to overcome. Android’s been accepted and used by every phone maker save Apple and Nokia (both of whom are losing marketshare to Android).

RIM is dropping, and as Android picks up more and more integration with enterprise solutions, it’ll lose even more (I use my Android tablet and my WinMo phone and my calendar and contacts on both are automatically synchronized between my Outlook app and the Exchange servers and iCal servers of my clients - it just works).

My guess, for 2014:

Android: 35%
Symbian: 30%
Win Phone 7: 12%
iOS: 12%
RIM: 10%
Others: 1%

Symbian and Win Phone 7 will be predominantly on the strength of Asian sales (ultra-slick support for Mandarin, Thai, Hindi, etc - not bad markets when you consider half the world’s population lives in China, India, or the countries between them). Android takes the lead, and iOS becomes a player really only in the US (much like most Apple products - a player in the US only).


10 posted on 09/10/2010 9:20:15 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: driftdiver
I think a lot of the variable in my analysis is the Verizon and Apple issue. I believe that as Verizon goes to LTE over the next couple of years, the Apple iPhone will be a carried by both of these suppliers.

Thus, in 2 years; one way or another Apple will be available in both markets (AT&T and Verizon - and T-Mobile, ect). The cost of entry will be high - $199 for the iPhone 5 if histrorical prices remain consistent. IMHO, a great many Verizon users will hop on the Apple platform due to the phone's superiority, but the price will impede a certain number.

However, in year 3, the iPhone 6 will be out - and the $199 price for the iPhone 6 will mean that the iPhone 5 will drop to $99. This lower cost, and the easy availablilty of apps from iTunes (plus whatever other goodies Apple continues to add to the iPhone) will make the iOS more desireable.

Gartner's approximateion of 14.9% seems surprisingly pessimistic - given that the PRESENT marketshare for Apple is 28%

11 posted on 09/10/2010 9:22:36 AM PDT by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
My data is from June 6th, 2010

IMHO, the area where Symbian excells is in the basic (dumb) cell phone. You know, where a camera and very basic browsing is about all you get. I think the number of these phones will drop, as LTE combines both voice and data into a seamless data-stream. There will cease to be a 'penalty' for a data-plan and the apps will continue to tempt those new customers to opt for the neat stuff (weather, theater show times, gas prices, where did I park my car?).

I think LTE is going to be a big game-changer. I can't speak to the foreign language support as I only speak English (and even that skill is not as good as it should be). But, you point is well taken.

There is a lot of inertia to overcome with RIM. There are a lot of corporate systems that have been built around RIM for secure emails, messages and phone calls. This is going to take a while to dismantle, and RIM is certainly going to try to grow this segment.

I do think Android will continue to grow - but the problem with Android is the Open Source and loose management of the OS. Apple is 'safe' in that because it's a 'closed garden' viri and malware is screened. Android has already had some malware and ID theft issues. Unless Google tightens the reigns, this insecurity could be their demise. No one wants their credit card numbers stolen by their phone.

Personally, I really do like Android. I think Google really has a winning product - they just need to put some controls on it - which is pretty much anti-Open Source.

But, you bring up some very good points with the open language support in emerging markets. How many smartphones will be sold in China and India. IMHO, these cultures are more interested in functionality than status. Apple's main thrust is that their phone is an elegant, functional and status symbol. You can get similar performance off a cheaper alternative phone - and IMHO that's where India and China will focus.

It's going to be intersting; It appears we are within range on Android and RIM; but have exchanged Symbian and iOS.

12 posted on 09/10/2010 9:38:02 AM PDT by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: Hodar

You bring up logical points but I’d imagine Gartner considered all of those factors. They usually do.


13 posted on 09/10/2010 9:38:26 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver
You bring up logical points but I’d imagine Gartner considered all of those factors. They usually do

The most likely scenario for iPad sales this year is 4.2 million units," says Gartner analyst Angela McIntyre

Source dated May 5, 2010.

Research firm iSuppli raised its prediction for the number of iPads that Apple will ship this year from 7.1 million to 12.9 million.

Source dated July 20, 2010

300% error in 2 months. At least they didn't predict it would fail monumentally. I expect that this number will be adjusted upward again, as Apple has increased production to 3 million units a month as of Oct 4th. I was one of the lucky pre-orders who received it a day earlier than promised. The polish put into that product cannot be understated. I use it daily, and am amazed by the amount of thought that went into it.

14 posted on 09/10/2010 9:47:42 AM PDT by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: Hodar

Those numbers are US-only, right? Worldwide, Symbian commands 40% of the Smartphone market. RIM is second at about 25%. Android is about tied with iOS, and is continuing to gain marketshare.

iOS will end up being a player in the US only, probably retaining a domestic number 2 spot to Android.

The Gartner report is about total worldwide sales, and it shows that Symbian IS the dominant Smartphone OS worldwide. Remember, Nokia is a bit-player in the US, but they ship 110 million phones A MONTH; in 10 days, Nokia will ship the same number of phones as ever sold by Apple. They’re a MONSTER overall.

US-centric, yeah Apple will stay a bit higher, in 2nd or 3rd place (behind Android, and maybe behind RIM). Worldwide, though, it will be Symbian and Android battling it out for the lead.


15 posted on 09/10/2010 9:49:42 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
"At this point you would have to pay me a lot of money to work on Symbian," said Chris Haseman, a senior software engineer at doubleTwist Corp., a software development firm. Mr. Haseman works with Android and is learning how to write for the iPhone. "Symbian is just not a big player out there.... I don't feel the same way about it as I do the iPhone, where I feel like I need to know how to write for it," he adds. [...]

In addition to the iPhone, Nokia faces growing competition in the U.S. from phones that operate on Google's Android software. Nokia has refused to adopt Android for its own devices, preferring to stick with Symbian, which developers have criticized as outdated and clunky. The problem, they say, is that the Symbian has been a more difficult and time consuming platform. Symbian takes 15 months or more to master versus less than six months for Android, according to strategy firm VisionMobile. Developers also say that their applications sales from Nokia's Ovi Store generate less revenue than Apple and Google's application stores.

16 posted on 09/10/2010 9:58:42 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: Revolting cat!

Above from the WSJ this morning.


17 posted on 09/10/2010 9:59:18 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: Hodar
I thought these points needed to be directly addressed; it's a common approach to fear the "open nature" of Android, but an objective view will show that it's actually a preferred situation. Apple's walled garden is not very walled nor much of a garden (at least for enterprises).

I do think Android will continue to grow

Android has already passed iOS in the US, in terms of new sales. iOS is now in 4th place worldwide, and falling (in terms of marketshare) - behind Symbian, RIM, and Android.

- but the problem with Android is the Open Source and loose management of the OS.

That's what allowed Windows to explode and dominate - making the OS and API open for anyone to buy and use and build upon. It's a winning strategy; closed systems lose every time.

Apple is 'safe' in that because it's a 'closed garden' viri and malware is screened.

Really? In just the last few months we've seen multiple security holes (ACE - arbitrary code execution - holes) like the jailbreakme.com one which completely rooted and reloaded the ROM in your iPhone from simply visiting a website, and "malware" like the flashlight app that was really a WIFI router (and was sold in the App Store until users tattled on it - completely violated Apple's App Store rules, and their "screening" didn't catch it at all).

In fact, Apple once again patched a bunch of ACE holes just yesterday. There's a reason that iOS is jailbroken as soon as new versions are released - it's very vulnerable to ACE exploits which is how it's jailbroken.

Android has already had some malware and ID theft issues.

And those would be?

Unless Google tightens the reigns, this insecurity could be their demise. No one wants their credit card numbers stolen by their phone.

How is it worse than iPhone? And in fact, most companies like to have control over their assets and platforms; Apple's attempt to lock-you-in to their own little restricted garden and app tools doesn't help.

Windows owns the desktop/laptop market because it's APIs are public, and control and use of the OS is unrestricted, and versions are supported for more than 3-4 years. Long term support for even 15-20 year old products (I run a few Win95-only apps on Win 7 x64 without a problem) and the open-use nature of the OS wins every time. Create what you want, in the language you want, for distribution as you see fit, without any interference from Microsoft.

Android has the same freedom, and you even get the source code so - if you're an enterprise - you can make changes as desired (like full encryption of everything - including communications - if you want), and support it forever, since you have the source code.

Extensibility and support are critical to the enterprise, and Android excels at that compared to iOS.

18 posted on 09/10/2010 10:13:41 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: Revolting cat!

Fully agree! Nokia’s insistence on a closed, controlled platform has stifled it’s growth. It has the huge marketshare in spite of its limitations, not because of them.

Nokia is losing share, and unless they get rolling quickly with Meego or Android (and quit their fascination with Symbian), they’re going to fall behind Android.

Knowing several Finns, my guess is that they will not make a serious push at Meego or Android, will continue to focus on Symbian (their “own” OS), and cede top-spot to Android. And probably Samsung will take over as the largest phone maker in the world, at that point (Samsung being the ultimate mercenary in the phone market - they’ll support any OS out there, if they’re allowed to).


19 posted on 09/10/2010 10:16:45 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

Well, it’s not over, Nokia’s got itself a new CEO today, dude from Canada.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703597204575482902836750116.html?mod=WSJ_hps_LEFTTopStories


20 posted on 09/10/2010 10:50:07 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
And then there are the Chinese. Ideos. Smartphone (running Android) under $200.
21 posted on 09/10/2010 11:03:19 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: Revolting cat!

Ideos is selling in Obambi’s home country for Sh 8000($98.)


22 posted on 09/10/2010 11:07:53 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
Android Malware Source

While Apple may not be a panacea, it 'IS' regulated. And while I was not quick enough to get the 'Flashlight' App, the fact that it was found and removed is evident that there is a screen in place. The 'wireless router' was an 'easter egg'. While I may disagree with this; there is an implied safety in this approach.

And yes, if there is a desire to open the 'walled garden'; there will be a means. The latest Bootrom hack is pretty much hardware based - any iPad/iPhone or iPod currently on the market is vulnerable. You must connect to the PC to do this, as this hack hit's the low level boot firmware on the iPhone. The only way for Apple to fix this is to re-program the low-level boot layer. Personally, my intention is to jailbreak my iPhone so I can use MiFi.

My belief, my ethics allows me to use MY property in any manner I see fit. Recently, the courts sided with my approach. I'm paying for a 2GB/month dataplan, I own my iPHone and I own an iPad. If I want to tether the two together - I see no reason AT&T should extort an additional $20 from me to do so. Same data rate, same data quantity per month - just a larger display.

The difference, as I see it is that MSFT and a PC are implied program running machines. My phone is a communications device with cute little gadgets. I don't mind paying for anti-virus, trojan or malware protection for my PC - that goes with the ability to run any program.

However, when it comes to my cell phone - my perception is different. I don't want my phone calls monitored, my location spied upon, my text messages relayed to an unseen destination, and expecially any secure financial tranactions shared. So, because the cell phone is such a 'personal' device, I prefer the iPhone's approach.

Now, when I jailbreak do I intend to run 'pirated' software? Nope, in fact I will most certainly NOT do that. Why? Because, IMHO the applications I purchase through iTunes are both reasonably priced and because Apple has screened them.

However, I fully intend to utilize MiFi, because I cannot get this functinoality without paying what I feel to be extortion to AT&T. This, IMHO, is like paying a premium to use the Speakerphone on your cell phone. Same phone call, same phone time - but now multiple listeners can participate in a conversation.

23 posted on 09/10/2010 11:49:42 AM PDT by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
Apple completely backpedaled on their “no interpreters running on iOS!” meme.

The FTC started an investigation. But apps still can only use public APIs and must be compiled into native code.

24 posted on 09/10/2010 1:06:31 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

I don’t get the love for the “open” nature of Android. There is a core Android OS that is open and available for download. It may be useful for Linux hackers and hobbyists. Beyond that, the implementations on most devices are proprietary — Android plus proprietary drivers, applications (even apps that are part of the standard expected Android experience), user interfaces, etc. Try to mod a firmware and post it, get threatened by the phone maker and Google to take it down.

This is not “open” like regular desktop Linux. In fact, OS X and iOS are based on the open-source Darwin BSD, but we don’t call them “open” because in practice they are closed.

On top of all this, Android phone makers are starting to put locks on their phones just like Apple does, requiring a jailbreak to use anything but an official version. How “open” is that?


25 posted on 09/10/2010 1:22:00 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

Question here. If Android is so good at multi-language, why can’t I switch seamlessly between English and German on mine? Specifically, I’d like to be able to easily switch between QWERTY and QWERTZ. It would really help if the auto-correct dictionary switched with the keyboard, because it’s supremely annoying when typing German.

Or at least make it fast to type umlauts and such.

Currently running Android 2.1, the newest thing released so far for the phone I bought only earlier this year.


26 posted on 09/10/2010 1:33:47 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: Hodar
Android Malware Source

App Store malware. And another, from just a few months ago.

While Apple may not be a panacea, it 'IS' regulated.

As is Google's Market; even your own source says they yank about 1% because of malware issues.

And while I was not quick enough to get the 'Flashlight' App, the fact that it was found and removed is evident that there is a screen in place.

Nope. It only got yanked by Apple after sites like the one I link above started advertising the nature of the app. Apple's screening simply didn't catch it - at all. If people kept their mouth shut, it would still be there.

The latest Bootrom hack is pretty much hardware based - any iPad/iPhone or iPod currently on the market is vulnerable. You must connect to the PC to do this, as this hack hit's the low level boot firmware on the iPhone.

The current one, maybe. The last one was purely software/web based. That's a security hole. And the reason these breaks occur so fast is that the breakers have a big list of holes they're working down, and adding to as new versions of the OS are released.

It may make you feel more secure, but actual, real-world results show that it is NOT more secure, nor is it more protective than other options.

My belief, my ethics allows me to use MY property in any manner I see fit. Recently, the courts sided with my approach

I fully agree! Too bad Apple refused that until a court ruled, and too bad you had to trust a court WOULD rule your way. Wouldn't it be nice if Apple simply said "it's your device, it's other owner's devices, do with them as you will"?

The difference, as I see it is that MSFT and a PC are implied program running machines. My phone is a communications device with cute little gadgets.

Huh? Gadgets ARE programs. Your phone is RUNNING PROGRAMS. They have a cutesy name of "apps", but that's short for applications - programs. A smartphone IS a computer. In fact, my HTC Touch Pro2 can do pretty much everything a mid-late 90s PC could do. It IS a computer. That's the point that everyone is trying to exploit - you can now blend your computing devices into a variety of interfaces to the same applications and cloud of data.

Because, IMHO the applications I purchase through iTunes are both reasonably priced and because Apple has screened them.

Sure, but that screening - as we see documented above - is not exhaustive or complete.

Fundamentally, we see the real-world results of the Apple approach - it's no more secure than the Android approach. The real-world breaks and hacks show that to be the case.

27 posted on 09/10/2010 7:29:21 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: antiRepublicrat
I don’t get the love for the “open” nature of Android. There is a core Android OS that is open and available for download. It may be useful for Linux hackers and hobbyists. Beyond that, the implementations on most devices are proprietary — Android plus proprietary drivers, applications (even apps that are part of the standard expected Android experience), user interfaces, etc. Try to mod a firmware and post it, get threatened by the phone maker and Google to take it down.

The "love" is that - as an app developer - I can do a LOT more with the Android platform with my choice of language and my choice of functionality. I can examine the internals of the OS and make sure it behaves as I want, or even optimize for different revs of the kernel.

Apple demands I must use Objective C, and that I don't step on their toes in terms of functionality. I am not free to compete with them, and customers cannot see alternatives that may or may not be better (and the market cannot decide). And I do not know what happens to the kernel between versions, so I do not know what APIs were adversely affected.

Question here. If Android is so good at multi-language, why can’t I switch seamlessly between English and German on mine?

Don't know. Mine does Mandarin and English great, and I know that Froyo supports multi-language keyboards VERY well. And you can download a German keyboard quite easily. Just like you have to do on an iPhone.

28 posted on 09/10/2010 7:40:35 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
The "love" is that - as an app developer

I'm talking about users. There effectively is very little freedom.

And I do not know what happens to the kernel between versions, so I do not know what APIs were adversely affected.

I remember WAY back in the Atari days people programming against non-standard APIs (or, rather, not sticking to the documented "entry points" as we called them then), taking advantage of things in the OS. Then there was an OS revision and everybody who did that had their programs break. Users had to basically load the old OS version from disk to use the programs. Not a good idea. It's the OS vendor's responsibilty to publish what happens with APIs and the developers' responsibility to stick with the APIs.

and I know that Froyo supports multi-language keyboards VERY well

On my phone that was introduced here less than a year ago, I will never see carrier-supported Froyo.

And you can download a German keyboard quite easily. Just like you have to do on an iPhone.

The iPhone gives the umlauts in the way that Android recently copied for Froyo. Otherwise, the iPhone has the German keyboard built-in. But thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

29 posted on 09/11/2010 6:49:44 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat
I'm talking about users. There effectively is very little freedom.

Freedom for developers provides freedom for users. How about a different home screen? With Android, the user can play with that. With the iPhone, they cannot. Not because the iPhone cannot technically support different homescreen layouts, but because Apple won't give developers the freedom.

Locking down developers necessarily locks down innovation. And that hinders the users.

30 posted on 09/11/2010 7:29:13 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
How about a different home screen? With Android, the user can play with that.

If the carrier allows. My point is that even though the core of Android is open source, the users DO NOT get the open source experience. Between proprietary closed-source apps making up much of the standard delivered OS experience, proprietary user interfaces (both of which have resulted in legal threats against Android developers) and hardware locks, you aren't that far away from the iPhone.

31 posted on 09/12/2010 8:48:43 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat
If the carrier allows.

AT&T lets you change your home screen with any non-Apple phone. I don't know of any restriction from Verizon (I run SPB Mobile Shell on my Verizon phone), T-Mobile, or Sprint.

The restriction on the home screen is purely from Apple, the carrier isn't involved at all.

My point is that even though the core of Android is open source, the users DO NOT get the open source experience.

Rooting is always possible, allowing you to get the experience you want. And you can always download new apps to change the experience, and developers can create those new experiences.

Except on the iPhone. Apple's restrictions on even what kind of app you can develop inherently limits the experiences available for the iPhone users.

Between proprietary closed-source apps making up much of the standard delivered OS experience

Which you can override with other apps...

proprietary user interfaces (both of which have resulted in legal threats against Android developers)

Which you can replace (and I would love to know about those legal threats against developers of alternative UIs - I've not seen it)...

and hardware locks

Which have already been bypassed, because the OS is open source so the developers can see how to get around it with new versions...

you aren't that far away from the iPhone.

Simple question: can I create a new home screen on an Android phone?

As an Android developer, there is ZERO requirement to get Google's blessing when doing an app. That's a HUGE difference.

32 posted on 09/12/2010 9:03:16 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
Rooting is always possible, allowing you to get the experience you want.

You can root an iPhone and do it too. If I install Ubuntu, I know I have full open source. I can do anything. Not so with an Android from your carrier.

Which you can replace (and I would love to know about those legal threats against developers of alternative UIs - I've not seen it)...

one example

Which have already been bypassed, because the OS is open source so the developers can see how to get around it with new versions...

The same gets done with the iPhone, thus my point: You have to root/jailbreak either to get your freedom.

33 posted on 09/12/2010 10:05:16 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat
Which you can replace (and I would love to know about those legal threats against developers of alternative UIs - I've not seen it)...

one example

Sorry, that's not what you think it is... Read the comments of the link you provided and you'll find out that HTC was sending a cease-and-desist for hosting HTC code, NOT for changing or rooting the phone. HTC doesn't care if you change the home screen, just that you cannot post their ROM code for their own UI on your site. BIG difference there.

The same gets done with the iPhone, thus my point: You have to root/jailbreak either to get your freedom.

No you don't. You can install alternative home screens on an Android phone without rooting. You cannot do that on an iPhone. Simple as that.

34 posted on 09/13/2010 12:11:26 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
HTC was sending a cease-and-desist for hosting HTC code, NOT for changing or rooting the phone

That's what I was talking about for the lack of freedom. Android as an open source product is NOT the fully usable, full-featured product you get from any carrier. It's only the basics. People think you can just modify the software on the phone and redistribute for others (like you can do with open source), but much of Android -- as advertised and shipped to consumers -- is in fact NOT open source. Kind of like like iOS or OS X.

HTC doesn't care if you change the home screen, just that you cannot post their ROM code for their own UI on your site. BIG difference there.

Wait on that one too. Hardware locks just started coming down on Android phones. Of course, Apple can't send an enforceable C&D anymore because jailbreaking -- an iPhone or Android phone -- is now perfectly legal. You like to say "just root" the Android phone. Uh, this is effectively the same as jailbreaking an iPhone. You can do anything with an iPhone too if you jailbreak it.

You can install alternative home screens on an Android phone without rooting. You cannot do that on an iPhone. Simple as that.

If alternate home screens are so important to you, then don't buy the product. The fact remains BOTH platforms are artificially limited in what you can do, and BOTH platforms need rooting/jailbreaking to get around those limitations.

Android breaks a basic premise of open source, so users shouldn't consider it to be open source on the same level as Linux even though Android is touted as being Linux-based. I'm still not quite sure how they pulled this off without violating the GPL. They must be toeing a very fine line.

35 posted on 09/13/2010 6:58:51 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat
That's what I was talking about for the lack of freedom. Android as an open source product is NOT the fully usable, full-featured product you get from any carrier. It's only the basics. People think you can just modify the software on the phone and redistribute for others (like you can do with open source), but much of Android -- as advertised and shipped to consumers -- is in fact NOT open source. Kind of like like iOS or OS X.

Not even close. I have a totally bone-stock Android 2.1 load on my tablet. I can do anything possible on it. The HTC Sense UI would MAYBE be a different experience that I may or may not like, but it brings no new basic functionality to the deal.

As far as Android goes, the source is freely modifiable, redistributable, and available. I do NOT have the source to many of the apps I've loaded - those are NOT available.

Same with iOS. You're telling me I can download the source for iOS? I can look at the WIFI stack? I can redestribute as I like?

And your claim about OSX is laughable. Psystar ring a bell?

It's not even close. You're really grasping at straws, anti! Heck, we're discussing whether an alternative UI is distributable on Android; good luck even FINDING an alternative UI for the iPhone!

Wait on that one too. Hardware locks just started coming down on Android phones.

And they're already cracked, too...

You like to say "just root" the Android phone. Uh, this is effectively the same as jailbreaking an iPhone. You can do anything with an iPhone too if you jailbreak it.

Except you DON'T HAVE TO ROOT YOUR ANDROID PHONE to try a different UI. That alone is a big difference. You don't want to admit it though, I know...

If alternate home screens are so important to you, then don't buy the product. The fact remains BOTH platforms are artificially limited in what you can do, and BOTH platforms need rooting/jailbreaking to get around those limitations.

Look, the fundamental point is what you're trying to hand-wave over. Android gives the USER choice, and it also gives DEVELOPERS choice, both of which will inherently make a better system. Only by trying new paradigms and ideas will innovation flow. Android is a magnitude better than the iPhone in this regard.

Android breaks a basic premise of open source

BS. If you're going to just start lying about things, well, then this thread is dead...

36 posted on 09/13/2010 8:21:51 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
I do NOT have the source to many of the apps I've loaded - those are NOT available.

I remember, navigation, mapping, etc., advertised as parts of Android. Turns out they aren't. They are closed-source apps.

Same with iOS. You're telling me I can download the source for iOS?

It's called Darwin. It's BSD/Mach. On top of that is built the rest of the proprietary OS (except for the open source parts like WebKit, etc.).

Except you DON'T HAVE TO ROOT YOUR ANDROID PHONE to try a different UI.

That's just one feature. I'm talking about what you have to do to have the freedom normally associated with open source. You have to jailbreak both. You wouldn't even have the concept to "ROOT YOUR ANDROID PHONE" if they were completely open.

Look, the fundamental point is what you're trying to hand-wave over. Android gives the USER choice, and it also gives DEVELOPERS choice, both of which will inherently make a better system.

Actually, that total freedom has seriously hindered open source, since it fragments the market and leads to wildly different user experiences. Examples now, the custom manufacturer UIs, different closed-source software loads, undesired yet undeletable software, the carrier locking you into a search engine, etc.

I can buy a computer pre-loaded with Ubuntu. I can then do anything with it. Nothing's locked or mandatory or closed, and I can download and install any version of Ubuntu or any other Linx. I can mess with it to my heart's content. That's open source freedom for a user. It does not exist with most Android devices.

Only by trying new paradigms and ideas will innovation flow.

Like Apple introduced with the iPhone and that Android copied? You're welcome.

37 posted on 09/13/2010 9:12:59 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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