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To: patlin

First you said, “you [meaning me] consistently have neglected the natural right of “expatriation” in your augments & writings.” I prove you wrong and you fail to admit it. In your effort to deflect attention away from your error, now you argue “[w]hile you expound on Vattel, you neglect Locke & Sidney who set the sparks flying.” You really do not give up do you.

Well, you say that my “posts are long, loaded with information and the right of expatriation gets lost in the shuffle.” I do not see how my explanation of the expatriation doctrine got lost anywhere. It is clearly written there and anyone could have read it. But you refuse to admit that you did not and rather just continue with more baseless attacks against me.

Also, you complain my posts are long and now you also complain that I did not speak about Locke and Sidney. So you wished that my post were longer if you also want me to write on those historical figures. So which way do you want it?

You speak about Justice Wilson who is very important in understanding the meaning of a “natural born Citizen.” You snidely (”oh so important”) attempt to undercut the importance of Vattel and rather put forward a theory that the meaning of a “natural born Citizen” may be found in English history and Locke and Sidney who focused on natural law rather than Vattel who focused on the law of nations. You fail to show any connection between English history and Locke and Sidney and a “natural born Citizen.” You also fail to realize that both Jefferson and Wilson, among the many Founders and Framers, looked to Vattel as the master on explaining natural law and the law of nations which they believed had a divine origin and was therefore immutable and binding. And it was in Vattel’s Law of Nations Section 212 that he defined what a “natural born citizen” (”naturels, ou indigenes” in French which we know is equivalent to “natural born citizens” or “natives” or “indigenes” in English) is.

You also fail to realize that natural law and the law of nations existed well before English history and Locke and Sidney. The law of nations developed from jus gentium which was a Roman concept. Roman lawyers came to believe that jus gentium, since it was based on universal principles and was common among nations, was the lost law of nature. Cicero, a very famous Roman lawyer and orator, who was one of the Founders and Framers (especially Jefferson and Wilson) favorite, wrote extensively on natural law. I could go on at length on this point but it is not necessary for my purpose here.

Again, I do not know what your and Jedi’s motive is regarding why you feel compelled to prove me wrong in any way that you can. Again, I do not know who you or Jedi are and would recommend that if either of you have something that you want to share with the public or me on the meaning of a “natural born Citizen,” just do it without trying to prove that you know this subject better than me.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.


36 posted on 11/06/2010 12:10:58 PM PDT by Puzo1 (Ask the Right Questions to Get the Right Answers)
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To: Puzo1
AGAIN, I was not feuding with you, I was stating MY opinion. So, what are you now, the birther police chief who determines who can or can not have an opinion?

Me thinks you doth protest too much, especially against those on the same side of the argument. The term “natural born” appeared in English law well before Vattel & well before feudal law that arose after the Norman Conquest. The tern “natural born” was written in text books & commentaries on natural law that were embedded into the minds of the framers well before Vattel’s 1st edition of the Law of Nations in 1758. Where do you think the English originally got it from? Vattel was important because his works affirmed the century's old doctrine of the natural law nations that began with Adam & Eve.

Again, Vattel was important because his works are on the laws of nations according to natural law. At the declaration, each state became a quote “sovereign NATION state”, each with the right to make their own laws, including those of citizenship as at that time there was NO federal citizenship. The states determined immigration based on the needs of their own sovereign state & thus Vattel was brought in. His works were the epitome of the subject, even by Brits who cited Vattel in their records of “The House of Commons”, British Parliament, especially during the wars they. Vattel took natural law, written by many earlier philosophers on the subject and brought it together in one neat little set of works that also included the law of nations. This had never been done before. AND if you actually go to Congressional records, you will find that Pufenfdorf, Locke & Grotius are more widely used when speaking of natural rights of citizens and who those citizens are.

John Adams:

A man must be indifferent to the sneers of modern Englishmen, to mention in their company, the names of Sidney, Harrington, Locke...You and I, my dear friend, have been sent into fife, at a lime when the greatest lawgivers of antiquity would have wished to have lived. How few of the human race have ever enjoyed an opportunity of making an election of government more than of air, soil or climate, for themselves or their children.

37 posted on 11/06/2010 8:06:03 PM PDT by patlin (Ignorance is Bliss for those who choose to wear rose colored glasses)
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To: Puzo1

Dear Mr. Apuzzo,

First THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR WORK AND RESEARCH! We owe you a debt that cannot be paid. Thank you!

This being said, there are certain ... persons here who deliberately engage in obfuscation. Their purpose is to confuse and to mislead. My experience is that you cannot win against them because like sponges and brick walls, they are incapable of being anything other than the mentally squishy yet hard headed paid mules they are.

It is their job to engage in these nay-saying tactics. They aren’t interested in being correct, they are interested in throwing just enough truth around to sound credible and confuse people. Trust me I have been burned by such as these more than once (NO ONE MENTIONS POLARIK OK GUYS!!!?).

The best we can do is to clearly state our case using the fewest words possible with the fewest number of syllables. Bullet points and numbering comments does seem to irritate them for some reason....

I have followed your work for a long time now, and I am sincere in saying, you give me hope for the future! Don’t let the birther-lice get to you. They have a vested interest in your failure. The rest of America has a vested interest in your success!

God speed to you... nd from your filings to God’s eyes, keep up the fantastic work you have been doing!


50 posted on 11/08/2010 7:47:36 PM PST by Danae (Anail nathrach, orth' bhais's bethad, do chel denmha)
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