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Rubber bullets for Agent Terry? (A Janet Napolitano "MAN MADE DISASTER?)
Examiner ^ | December 16, 2010 | Rick Oltman

Posted on 12/17/2010 1:22:47 PM PST by yoe

Caveat Emptor

The following reports are unconfirmed 2nd or 3rd hand accounts, but come from three different sources that have all been credible in the past.

I was told twice today that (Border Patrol Agent Brian A. Terry, who was killed on December 14th, was armed with “bean-bag rounds.”

"Bean bag rounds" are used when a person is a danger to himself or others, but is not a direct threat in such a manner that lethal force would be appropriate. The round is intended to disable or stun the person without killing them. 50% of cases are when the assailant has a bladed weapon.

Another source related to me that Terry “had a 12 gauge with rubber bullets.” That is, a 12 gauge shotgun with rubber bullets, as opposed to OO buckshot, for example.

Either way, if correct, Agent Terry was armed with a “non-lethal” weapon in an area so dangerous that only the elite agents of BORTAC were allowed to patrol. What gives? Did he have his M-4 rifle with him as well? Don’t know. Terry was a Marine, so of course he joined BORTAC. One person said to me this morning, "They armed a warrior with a water pistol."

Recently, agents in the area west of Rio Rico spotted the thugs who were suspected of ripping off the drug mules and of multiple rapes. 2 or 3 times agents radioed in that they could “take these guys.” But, they were told by their supervisors multiple times to disengage, “We want to take them alive.”

“Taking them alive” could be just an excuse to get the agents to back off so there would be no gun play.

"Taking them alive" could also be a legit op, but for these punks? What valuable intelligence could possibly be learned from a bunch of rogue robbers/rapists?

If you think about it, taking them alive would at the least mean; capture, arrest, charges, an arraignment, the Mexican Council getting involved, the U.S. Attorney, a trial, sentencing and, of course, press coverage at almost every step.

Does anyone think for a minute that this Administration, or the Mexican government for that matter, wanted any of that? And for what? These guys? If they surrender that's one thing, but to plan to take them alive? Not high value targets at all.

Whatever the case, you can take somebody alive with lethal weapons. It’s done all the time. It's up to the suspect to decide if they want to be taken alive or shoot it out, which in this case they did and Brian Terry died.

Kimberly Dvorak has an excellent piece, (Captured Illegal alien in BP agent murder has a U.S. rap sheet) identifying one of those captured the day Terry was killed as a multiple deportee with a rap sheet and a conviction for aggravated assault on a police officer.

I remember a lecture delivered to some crybaby on Dragnet years ago by Jack Webb’s Sgt. Joe Friday where he pointed out that if someone is willing to attack a police officer who is armed and trained to defend himself, what would prevent him from attacking anybody else? They’re the most dangerous of criminals.

There are reports of increased helicopter and fixed wing aircraft traffic in the area since Terry’s killing.

There are other reports of drug cartel observation posts up in the hills.

One rancher was witnessed telling a news crew to get the microphone out of his face and get off his property because they were being observed by drug lookouts and he didn’t want any trouble with them after the reporters left.

Reports of drug cartels' observation posts in the mountains have yet to be confirmed by the news media, but it makes sense. They can watch the trails, the roads, the traffic and the airspace and radio the information back to smugglers about to enter the area. The drug lookouts have state of the art technology; level 3 night vision, encrypted radios and burst transmitters making it hard to track them down.

Hostile OPs in mountainous terrain? We have some excellent men perfectly trained for exactly this kind of mission.

I suggest we pull a team of Delta Force, or Green Berets, or SEALs out of the mountains of Afghanistan-Pakistan and pair them up with the 160th S.O.A.R. of Black Hawk Down fame. Put some F.L.I.R. (forward looking infra-red) on the choppers, fly around the hills of southern Arizona near known smuggling routes and when they spot a warm body, insert the teams and take the OPs out. If the drug thugs want to surrender, so be it. If they don’t…so be it.

U.S. Special Forces Operators have an excellent record in the mountains of central Asia of tracking down and killing or capturing those who are smuggling drugs and plan to use the proceeds to kill Americans.

I think we can reliably presume that they will have a similar successful record in the mountains of Arizona of tracking down and killing or capturing those who are smuggling drugs and killing American ranchers and Border Patrol agents. And they won’t be using rubber bullets.

It’s time for answers. There is a lot we don't know, a lot of unconfirmed reports. (We need a congressional investigation into the killing of BP Agent Brian Terry) I can’t imagine anything so secret that we can’t be told about the mission that Brian Terry and his fellow agents were engaged in when he was killed.

I suggest that some of these questions could be asked of DHS Secretary, and former Arizona governor, Janet Napolitano if she should happen to hold a press conference while she's in Arizona to, you know, reassure us that the border is safe and secure.

Rick Oltman is the Founder of The Immigration Tea Party


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: aliens; ammo; az; bigsis; border; bortac; bullets; incompetano; murder; patrol
Where did this 'order' of no live ammunition come from....AZ or Washington, D.C.? A good man was murdered doing his job because some idiot issued this toy gun order.

WHOSE ORDER WAS IT TO SEND THIS BORDER PATROLMAN OUT TO STOP THE DRUGGIES WITH NO LIVE FIRE POWER????? Janet Napolitano NEEDS TO COME FORWARD NOW AND ANSWER THIS.

1 posted on 12/17/2010 1:22:52 PM PST by yoe
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To: yoe
"Bean Bag" rounds are FINE if all one wants to do is play a long range version of Mattel's kids' game "Toss Across", but I can think of NO logical reason why they would even be ISSUED to Border patrol agents.
2 posted on 12/17/2010 1:26:07 PM PST by WayneS (Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm. -- James Madison)
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To: yoe

Outrageous, if true. I hope someone follows up on this.


3 posted on 12/17/2010 1:28:14 PM PST by afraidfortherepublic
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To: WayneS

Since when has anything Janet INCOMPETENTO has done passed muster as LOGICAL??

If this proves out, I hope Terry’s family sues the s**t out of whoever issued that beanbag order. I hope it was Big Sis.


4 posted on 12/17/2010 1:28:26 PM PST by Dick Bachert
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To: All

What a disgrace...unbelievable...


5 posted on 12/17/2010 1:30:10 PM PST by Irenic
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To: yoe

After the 9/11 attacks when the airports reopened some had National Guard Troops patrolling them.

Come to be that some weren’t issued ammunition with the excuse being they were just there for ‘show’ and there was plenty of ‘firepower’ around to cover the situation.

It was pointed out that the fact that a person, in a Military uniform, with a weapon, loaded or not, is automatically a target.

I think it was in Maryland that a parent threatened to sue because of this, since his son was one of the troops.


6 posted on 12/17/2010 1:36:32 PM PST by xrmusn ((6/98))
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To: yoe

Bean bag rounds do a heck of a fine job at beating one single lone target down at very close range, nothing else.
Beyond a distance of -say- ten foot, your butt is toast if that is all you have.


7 posted on 12/17/2010 1:37:03 PM PST by Darksheare (I shook hands with Sheryl Crow and all I got was Typhus and a single sheet of toilet paper.)
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To: yoe
While it is easy to believe that the federal agent may have been carrying a non-lethal weapon, it strains credulity to assert that was the only weapon he was carrying.

I've been around federal law enforcement officers my entire adult life. I have never known them to be without a sidearm outside of a sterile area, like a courtroom or a interview room. Ever. I don't believe they'd be actually in the field entirely absent a fully-lethal weapon.

8 posted on 12/17/2010 1:37:39 PM PST by OldDeckHand
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To: yoe
Janet Napolitano NEEDS TO COME FORWARD NOW AND ANSWER THIS.

If she issued that order she is responsible for that mans death and therefore should be tried for the murder. This government is NOT the government I grew up with. I want my government back from the sleazy, amoral, spineless, elitist tripe that have hijacked it. And, I want Soros banned from the USA.

9 posted on 12/17/2010 1:38:29 PM PST by Bitsy
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To: yoe

It really doesn’t matter what the author of this article wants, or what you an id want.

It is obvious to any buit a damned fool that our Government higher ups have decided that the Borders of our country will be open to any and all who want to freely roam across them.

There may some little show of slowing them down at the Border crossings, but only one of their idiots would try to cross there. The real place top come into America is almost anywhere except the Border Crossings.

Once here those same higher ups aredetermined to make these illegal into citizens with educations health care, Social security and a citizenship even better than mnost fist class Americans.

And you know what???? There isn’t a damned thing we can do about it. We are being sold out by our politicians and liberals , and there isn’t a damned thing we can do about it. Votign is just a waste of time.


10 posted on 12/17/2010 1:38:43 PM PST by Venturer
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To: yoe

It really doesn’t matter what the author of this article wants, or what you an id want.

It is obvious to any buit a damned fool that our Government higher ups have decided that the Borders of our country will be open to any and all who want to freely roam across them.

There may some little show of slowing them down at the Border crossings, but only one of their idiots would try to cross there. The real place top come into America is almost anywhere except the Border Crossings.

Once here those same higher ups aredetermined to make these illegal into citizens with educations health care, Social security and a citizenship even better than mnost fist class Americans.

And you know what???? There isn’t a damned thing we can do about it. We are being sold out by our politicians and liberals , and there isn’t a damned thing we can do about it. Voting is just a waste of time.


11 posted on 12/17/2010 1:38:54 PM PST by Venturer
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To: Bitsy

Incompetano wants to make sure no illegals are hurt.


12 posted on 12/17/2010 1:41:52 PM PST by WOBBLY BOB ( "I don't want the majority if we don't stand for something"- Jim Demint)
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To: yoe
Reports of drug cartels' observation posts in the mountains have yet to be confirmed by the news media, but it makes sense. They can watch the trails, the roads, the traffic and the airspace and radio the information back to smugglers about to enter the area. The drug lookouts have state of the art technology; level 3 night vision, encrypted radios and burst transmitters making it hard to track them down.

If true, this is an invasion of US land by hostile forces. The US military ^should^ be brought in to eliminate said contrary forces.

13 posted on 12/17/2010 1:42:48 PM PST by Cletus.D.Yokel
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To: yoe

hummm


14 posted on 12/17/2010 1:45:11 PM PST by Java4Jay
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To: yoe

If that’s how they sent him in to that area, then there’s a supervisory chain that needs to be indicted for murder.


15 posted on 12/17/2010 1:50:33 PM PST by NonValueAdded (Palin 2012: don't retreat, just reload)
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To: yoe
Hostile OPs in mountainous terrain? We have some excellent men perfectly trained for exactly this kind of mission.

And risk provoking the hispanic voter demographic? Are you nuts? /s

16 posted on 12/17/2010 1:52:05 PM PST by skeeter
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To: WOBBLY BOB

Incompetano wants to make sure no illegals are hurt.

It is incredible. It is almost if we have become Wonderland from Alice & Wonderland. It is crazy.


17 posted on 12/17/2010 1:57:39 PM PST by Bitsy
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To: WOBBLY BOB

Incompetano wants to make sure no illegals are hurt.

It is incredible. It is almost if we have become Wonderland from Alice & Wonderland. It is crazy.


18 posted on 12/17/2010 1:57:50 PM PST by Bitsy
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To: yoe

Hey Big Sis!

Walmart is having a special on paintball guns!

Maybe if you buy enough of them it will count as “Stimulous money”!

Idiots!


19 posted on 12/17/2010 2:05:31 PM PST by Noob1999 (Loose Lips Sink Ships)
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To: yoe
This needs verification.

I would personally send in our Devil Dogs to make amends. I am not making decisions though. I know our present government is thankful for this fact.

20 posted on 12/17/2010 2:15:58 PM PST by no-to-illegals (Please God, Bless and Protect Our Men and Women in Uniform with Victory. Amen.)
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To: yoe

She’s got blood on her hands! she needs to be removed


21 posted on 12/17/2010 2:25:36 PM PST by ronnie raygun (V)
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To: no-to-illegals

this won’t go away anytme soon if the agent was not armed to protect Himself. Everyone know what is happening in Mexico, that it’s coming our way, that zer0 is doing NOTHING about it.


22 posted on 12/17/2010 2:36:19 PM PST by reefdiver ("Let His day's be few And another takes His office")
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To: OldDeckHand
While it is easy to believe that the federal agent may have been carrying a non-lethal weapon, it strains credulity to assert that was the only weapon he was carrying.

You are correct, he would have at least had his side arm at all times. I served 25 years as a Border Patrol Agent and was also a member of BORTAC (now retired). If he had any beanbag rounds in his 870 then he loaded them, probably just the first one and the rest were .00 or slugs.

No BORTAC Agent or any other Border Patrol Agent for that matter would go into that area with only non-lethal force. Agents are not under the UCMJ and are under no obligations to follow a stupid order that would likely get them killed.

23 posted on 12/17/2010 2:47:25 PM PST by usurper (Liberals GET OFF MY LAWN)
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To: 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 3pools; 3rdcanyon; 4Freedom; 4ourprogeny; 7.62 x 51mm; ..

Ping!


24 posted on 12/17/2010 3:01:16 PM PST by HiJinx (I can see Mexico from the back porch...)
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To: reefdiver

I certainly do not want this to go away. I want it verified. and I agree it is already here and more is coming.


25 posted on 12/17/2010 3:11:13 PM PST by no-to-illegals (Please God, Bless and Protect Our Men and Women in Uniform with Victory. Amen.)
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To: xrmusn
After the 9/11 attacks when the airports reopened some had National Guard Troops patrolling them.

I was in the National Guard in 1954, we got no ammo then either.

26 posted on 12/17/2010 3:30:53 PM PST by itsahoot (We the people, allowed Republican leadership to get us here, only God's Grace can get us out.)
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To: OldDeckHand
I don't believe they'd be actually in the field entirely absent a fully-lethal weapon.

And yet our troops in combat are required to not have a round in chamber. I guess they wouldn't have a chance to get that coveted Unusual Restrain badge otherwise.

27 posted on 12/17/2010 3:33:32 PM PST by itsahoot (We the people, allowed Republican leadership to get us here, only God's Grace can get us out.)
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To: OldDeckHand

You are correct. He was armed with a sidearm.

But the last time I saw the agent who was KIA, he had an AR and full kit, as did his partner. That was several months ago. What changed in the interim?


28 posted on 12/17/2010 3:41:12 PM PST by ex 98C MI Dude (Alea Iacta Est)
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To: ex 98C MI Dude
"What changed in the interim?"

Janet gained more power over him

29 posted on 12/17/2010 4:54:41 PM PST by NoLibZone (Homosexuals oppose diversity.)
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To: yoe; mylife; davetex
Per WND

It is not widely reported by our news media that the smugglers maintain a dozen or more permanent lookout posts on desert hilltops inside the U.S., and that those lookout posts are manned in week-long shifts by individuals who commute not from Mexico but from Phoenix, Tucson and other Arizona cities.

Bean bags vs. AK-47s

30 posted on 12/18/2010 11:03:01 AM PST by smokingfrog (Do all the talking you want, but do what I tell you.)
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To: smokingfrog

My buddy has buzzed those lookouts with his plane many times.

I draws gunfire.


31 posted on 12/18/2010 11:18:41 AM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: mylife

That’s crazy! Has his plane ever been hit?


32 posted on 12/18/2010 11:23:21 AM PST by smokingfrog (Do all the talking you want, but do what I tell you.)
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To: smokingfrog

No.

He is an Apache pilot and has been to iraq and afghanistan several times.

He is on his way back to the stan now.

These coyotes dont really get him to worked up.


33 posted on 12/18/2010 11:34:27 AM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: Irenic

Just part of the Big Plan

SO let me get this straight, We should have “Congress” do an investigation into whether or not we need Border Security? I hate to rain on everyones parade, and I truly feel sorry for This Mans family. But if you think we are ever going to Close the Border between Mexico and The US, you are CRAZY. We need the Border open, we need these vast corridors of FEDERAL LAND unchecked by Border Patrol and Police. 80% to 90% of ALL “ILLEGAL CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES” come across our Southern Border, 50% alone come through this very corridor. What would happen if we Closed it?? The DRUG WAR WOULD BE OVER, we would have to FIRE 2/3 to 3/4 of ALL Police and Sheriffs,more than Half the Judges, Close down 75% of our Jails and Prisons, Probation Depts, and all associated services, the list is endless. Basically we would have to eliminate about 50% of ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT across ALL SECTORS of GOVERNMENT, and all the Staff necessary to carry out their functions.. Entire Industries would vanish overnight. Next what would we do with the BILLIONS and BILLIONS of Dollars we currently Extract from the American People to Fight the War on Drugs?? What would happen to the Largest Banks in the US, you know the ones TOO BIG TO FAIL, Currently they enjoy a mighty PROFIT from LAUNDERING DRUG MONEY and when they get caught, they usually pay a fine of about 10% of their ILLEGAL PROFITS. See Bank of America and Wells Fargo. Who would Fund the CIA?? I could go on all day, but the bottom line is WE CANNOT SECURE OUR BORDERS AND HAVE A DRUG WAR, And to be honest the DRUG WAR is MORE PROFITABLE FOR GOVERNMENT, So if we experience some COLLATERAL DAMAGE occasionally SO BE IT. WE CANNOT EVER CLOSE THE BORDER, GET OVER IT.


34 posted on 12/18/2010 11:34:35 AM PST by eyeamok
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To: smokingfrog

Got his chopper shot up real good in the mountains near Musa Qala.

No casualties.


35 posted on 12/18/2010 11:36:38 AM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: smokingfrog

Unbelievable, time for some of our guys to take the high ground.


36 posted on 12/18/2010 11:38:54 AM PST by davetex (All my weapons got melted by a meteor!! No Sh*t)
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