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Adventures in Counterfeiting
The Constitution Club ^ | 03-22-11 | Zazu

Posted on 03/22/2011 8:41:51 PM PDT by TheConservativeCitizen

Ron Paul and Sovereign Citizen types are going berserk about this pretty interesting currency case.

http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20110319/NEWS01/110319006/Liberty-Dollar-creator-convicted-federal-court

A man has been convicted and could face 25 years in federal prison on counterfeiting charges, for what the government describes as a form of domestic terror designed to destabilize US currency. Bernard von NotHaus is some kind of anti-fed type who has minted and distributed millions of “Liberty Dollars”: silver coins that are 100% backed by precious metals he owns and are meant to be a more stable alternative to the US dollar. He claims the Liberty Coins are a form of barter, and that their use is voluntary with the understanding its not real money, but the coins are marked with the words dollars, USA, Trust in God, and the $ sign.

http://www.silvermonthly.com/1459/the-strange-case-of-the-liberty-dollar/

A short video about the Liberty Dollar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYGDVUb8MjA&feature=player_embedded

He started in the 90′s with warehouse receipts for silver he owned, the Secret Service investigated him, but since the notes were actually backed up by silver and the words “legal tender” were not used on the receipts, it was judged not counterfeiting. The problem began when he minted the coins and in an effort to help introduce them into general circulation made them somewhat resemble real money. Bernard von NotHaus states the coins constitute a voluntary bartering system with both parties understand the coins are not actual US currency, he claims his system is an alternative, not a counterfeit to the US dollar.

I think this case opens up some interesting discussion about the nature of currency. We can all agree that children trading baseball cards, or World of Warcraft players trading digital weapons and armor does not constitute counterfeiting despite both cases developing a complex and intricate barter system complete with supply and demand relationships, price inflation, and fluctuating exchange rates with real currency. At what point do we cross the line and an innovative barter system becomes counterfeiting?

PS: In case anyone wonders, I have never owned nor have had any financial stake in the Liberty Dollar, and would strongly advise a consultation with a lawyer, an accountant, and a federal agency before accepting or using anything that could conceivably be construed as counterfeit money.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Conspiracy; Government; Politics
KEYWORDS: counterfeiting; libertydollar; nothaus; terrorism
coun·ter·feit (kountr-ft) v. coun·ter·feit·ed, coun·ter·feit·ing, coun·ter·feits v.tr. 1. To make a copy of, usually with the intent to defraud; forge: counterfeits money. 2. To make a pretense of; feign: counterfeited interest in the story. v.intr. 1. To carry on a deception; dissemble. 2. To make fraudulent copies of something valuable. adj. 1. Made in imitation of what is genuine with the intent to defraud: a counterfeit dollar bill. 2. Simulated; feigned: a counterfeit illness. n. A fraudulent imitation or facsimile.

Not sure this would fall under that definition. And I now want one. Off to ebay I go.

1 posted on 03/22/2011 8:41:54 PM PDT by TheConservativeCitizen
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To: TheConservativeCitizen

According to someone who looked into this on an earlier thread this guy was running some kind of scam. It is not illegal to make coins per se but his appeared kinda confusing as to what they really were. I get ads all the time to buy special coins from long established companies.

Did he sell them for US currency?


2 posted on 03/22/2011 8:56:23 PM PDT by arrogantsob
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To: TheConservativeCitizen

yet it is ok when our government hires the fed...nothing more than a partnership of “private” banks to print worthless money backed up by nothing...a ponzi scheme that madoff would have admired!


3 posted on 03/22/2011 8:58:20 PM PDT by ldish (Looking forward to Independence Day)
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To: TheConservativeCitizen
he claims his system is an alternative, not a counterfeit to the US dollar.

And that is the argument that hung him. It is legal to produce coins as collectibles; but it is illegal to produce coins intended to circulate as money whether they resemble US coins or not.

The gubmint is pretty anal about competition with the dollar. In the 70's they went after several grain elevators that were trading and circulating warehouse receipts represent more grain than they actually had on hand. The treasury said it was a form of fractional reserve banking and prosecuted them.

4 posted on 03/22/2011 8:59:40 PM PDT by SeeSharp
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To: SeeSharp

That means many people who produce a valued coin with silver or gold would go to jail.I have tons of coins people have produced through the years.


5 posted on 03/22/2011 9:04:42 PM PDT by taxtruth (Don't end the fed,jail the fed!)
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To: taxtruth

Not if the producer can reasonably claim they were produced as collectibles. That’s what numismatic means and it’s the legal out for coin producers. If on the other hand a coin producer were to represent his coins as an alternative to the dollar he’d better start looking over his shoulder.


6 posted on 03/22/2011 9:08:00 PM PDT by SeeSharp
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To: arrogantsob
Well... once the government confiscates the silver that backed his currency, people that hold liberty dollars will have been defrauded. Hence he is guilty. /s
7 posted on 03/22/2011 9:12:58 PM PDT by D Rider
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To: SeeSharp; taxtruth

There are several issues here, and I’m not a lawyer, nor did I sleep in anything but my own bed last night.

The anecdote posted above about grain warehouse receipts is interesting, assuming it is true. It would seem to me that such activity would constitute the creation of a security. That it is “fractional reserve banking” may or may not be illegal, and, that may or may not be a proper definition although it sounds right. But it is definitely creating a security. And that would fall under securities laws which are rather stringent unless you happen to be a mortgage banker.


8 posted on 03/22/2011 9:15:45 PM PDT by Attention Surplus Disorder (Which has more wrinkles? Helen Thomas' face or Lawrence O'Donnells' panties?)
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To: SeeSharp

Nonsense!I’ve been collecting coins for over 40 years and have tons of these coins.Who brainwashed you of what value is when metal owners are making over 500% profits.Governments will do anything to con and fleece the sheep.


9 posted on 03/22/2011 9:15:56 PM PDT by taxtruth (Don't end the fed,jail the fed!)
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To: TheConservativeCitizen
People forget what they tried to do to egold and now they are trying to destroy Norfed because the fed and the government need to keep their little fiat ponzi scheme game going.
10 posted on 03/22/2011 9:27:52 PM PDT by taxtruth (Don't end the fed,jail the fed!)
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To: D Rider
Well... once the government confiscates the silver that backed his currency, people that hold liberty dollars will have been defrauded.

The coins are made of silver.

11 posted on 03/22/2011 9:40:18 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: ldish
yet it is ok when our government hires the fed...

The government didn't hire the Fed. The government created (and owns) the Fed.

12 posted on 03/22/2011 9:42:15 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: arrogantsob
I get ads all the time to buy special coins from long established companies.

When you find yourself signing up to buy, you will know that you have become senile, and it's time to put your affairs in the hands of trusted relatives.

13 posted on 03/22/2011 9:43:30 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: TheConservativeCitizen

$49 (free shipping) for the “20 Dollar” 1oz silver round. Nice piece. Just grabbed one myself.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220743237490&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


14 posted on 03/22/2011 10:13:29 PM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard (Some men just want to watch the world burn.)
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To: taxtruth

Are they really coins, or are they bullion made of precious metal (999.99 pure silver or gold) and in the shape of a coin?

I own silver bullion. These are one ounce pieces with an Indian head on one side and a buffalo on the other but has no stated denomination except for “999.99 pure silver”. They can be traded for the value of the silver but not used as money, per se.


15 posted on 03/22/2011 10:28:50 PM PDT by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT!)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
The government created (and owns) the Fed. false, and not just a little false. a whopper.
16 posted on 03/22/2011 11:10:46 PM PDT by AK_47_7.62x39 (There are many moderate Muslims, but there is no such thing as a moderate Islam. -- Geert Wilders)
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To: TheConservativeCitizen

Rumor has it that a Treasury Department committee is sitting now, and scheduling the minting of counterfeit nickels. At this point, the metal in the existing nickels is worth 1.5 or so times the face value. This might be a good time to collect nickels, and wait for the intrinsic value to increase to 4 - 5 times the face value. Just thinking out loud ...

Our treasury began counterfeiting quarters and dimes in the mid-60s, in order to finance the Vietnam War with inflation, by debauching the currency.


17 posted on 03/22/2011 11:12:18 PM PDT by RJR_fan ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: cynwoody

But some of them are so purty.


18 posted on 03/22/2011 11:23:17 PM PDT by arrogantsob
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To: D Rider

Hang ‘em high.


19 posted on 03/22/2011 11:24:28 PM PDT by arrogantsob
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To: AK_47_7.62x39
false, and not just a little false. a whopper.

The government didn't create the Fed? Then what was the Federal Reserve Act all about?

20 posted on 03/23/2011 6:19:13 AM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: AK_47_7.62x39

You’ve got that right!

The FED was an idea of those who WANTED to be the THRID central bank of this country. They PLOTED and tried for a long time, until they were successful. Signed on Christmas Eve in fact. When CONgress itself was not in session, it was passed, without the general public being informed.

The idea that somehow this was all the GOVERNMENTS idea is bogus.

It is true that the idea of socialism and adoration of Mussolini was popular, fiat currency and its ability to steal the earnings of working people to buy votes with, was a temptation that the politicians of the day couldn’t resist. And to this day, the politicians still and won’t resist.

The CENTRAL BANK that was created, KNEW what it was doing. They WANTED this.

It took three tries, and now it is too late.


21 posted on 03/23/2011 10:29:37 AM PDT by TruthConquers ( Delendae sunt publicae scholae)
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To: RJR_fan

It is not a rumor. I saw the notice for comments on ZeroHedge about a week ago. They were looking for input on what metals to use. I don’t remember that nickels were mentioned, but it is reasonable to assume that is what they are going to have to devalue next.

I still find the old copper pennies in my hubby’s change, and have a good start on nickels.

It was also why Nixon had to abandon the gold standard, the War in VietNam. Now we have three wars!! Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya! With a weak economy.


22 posted on 03/23/2011 11:21:21 AM PDT by TruthConquers ( Delendae sunt publicae scholae)
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To: arrogantsob

Yep, silver bullion coins are VERY pretty!!!

And that Liberty Dollar was a handsome coin. Not as gorgeous as the St Gaudians, but pretty!

And the TRUST IN GOD was a definite improvement!


23 posted on 03/23/2011 11:25:06 AM PDT by TruthConquers ( Delendae sunt publicae scholae)
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To: D Rider

LOL

Actually, when they confiscated gold in the first Great Depression, they did it in steps.

First, they front ran the public and started removing gold coins from the banks.

Then they asked people to turn in their coins, and gave them ‘gold certificates’ back!!!

THEN they SIX MONTHS LATER said, no you can’t exchange your ‘gold certificates’ for gold anymore. Here have some of this, federal reserve notes instead.

THEN they almost doubled the value of gold, and the people had HALF their earnings stolen from them, at the stroke of a pen.


24 posted on 03/23/2011 11:30:56 AM PDT by TruthConquers ( Delendae sunt publicae scholae)
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To: SeeSharp
Actually, there are are bunch of "local currencies" here in the good ol' U.S. of A.
25 posted on 03/25/2011 11:43:21 AM PDT by TradicalRC (Carthago Delenda Est..)
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